[3.5] trip, no iteratives but natural attacks

[ciopo]

Greetings everybody

I was tempted to ask this in the simple Q/A thread , but I feel the answer may not be so clear cut

per the PHB page 141, in a full round attack action, trip and disarm attempts substitutes a melee attack.

So, a character with BAB 16 could make 4 trips attempt in one full attack action, at progressively worse bonuses

What happens if this character also have natural attacks? gut feeling is it's one more trip attempt for each natural attack the character have, at full bonus for the primary and at -5 for the secondaries.

Now, what about a character that only has natural attacks? if it declares a full attack action, can it make the iterative trip attempts even if he is not wielding a weapon? if not, why?

My understanding of this is that yes, the iteratives trip attempts can be made regardless of having or not weapons in hand and having or not natural attacks, because they are by definition melee touch attack that provokes an AoO (caveat feat).

but that seems counterintuitive to me, so here I am, asking guidance

[PoeticallyPsyco]

I'd say that mechanically what's happening is a character without manufactured weapons is taking their BAB granted attacks as unarmed strikes (and then replacing them with trip attacks). So basically, exactly as you described, except that the trip attack replacing their primary natural weapon is also made at -5 (because now it's a secondary natural weapon).

[ExLibrisMortis]

Yep, trip with any attack, be it a weapon attack, unarmed attack, or natural attack. It does need to be a trip-enabled weapon. By default, trip attacks are unarmed melee attacks.

[ciopo]

Ok, practical example, level 1 druid with wolf animal companion

business as usual : wolf bites, if it hits, the (ex) ability triggers and he gets a free trip attempt

I've never done a full attack action with a animal companion because it just doesn't make any sense doing one since most of them only have one primary natural weapon anyway, buuuut

a CR1 wolf "could" full attack, eat an AoO for making a "normal" trip attempt at no penalties, then bite at a -5 to hit malus?

it's just, I don't see it (RAI), but RAW it seems that is the mechanical case?

[ZamielVanWeber]

Natural attacks don't have iteratives normally. Regardless of BAB a wolf gets a single attack, a bite. The wolf can bite -> trip or just trip.

[ciopo]

Natural attacks don't have iteratives normally. Regardless of BAB a wolf gets a single attack, a bite. The wolf can bite -> trip or just trip.

Yes, indeed, but "a wolf" , or "a wild shape druid", or a "anything that has some natural attack, and isn't currently wielding any manufactured weapon", could theoretically do a full round attack action and do iterative unarmed strike, plus the natural attack at the -5, no? The iterative isn't done with the natural attacks, of course. it's with the AoO-provoking unarmed strike.

of course, normally no one would do iterative unarmed strikes, because they cause AoO and they aren't worth it. But a trip attempt might be worth.

Not that I'm going to try getting this okayed by my gm, mind you, it's just personal curiosity on the nuance. I'm happy as a clam (improved) tripping on flybys

[darkdragoon]

Animal companions get a secondary, but it's linked to the Multiattack part of the companion:
https://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/druid.htm