what are some ultimate items in this game? [Archive]

MaxiDuRaritry

2020-03-20, 07:32 PM

spells do everything i want so i never used magic items and always gave em to my party members. but playing ragnarok online and making god items and seeing how npcs talk about god items with fear in their voices made me wanna be a guy who makes god items.

as i understand though, artifacts in this game kind of suck. and are uncraftable. so what are some real ultimate items? like what combination of +10 weapon or armor makes it the ultimate weapon or armor that would make people kill each other to obtain one or try to blackmail my artificer into making one?

single items are ok too. thought bottle for obvious reasons and rod of excellent magic.Most high-level items aren't very valuable for their gp cost. I find that combining lower- and mid-level items tends to be a lot more useful. Use the rules in the MIC (which are pretty much identical to the "suggestions" in the DMG) to create stuff like this (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?177889-Brainstorm-for-Psionic-Tricks-Tactics-and-Combos-Handbook&p=23285432&viewfull=1#post23285432).

Here're a few:

Let Me Touch Your Skin
So, find someone who can create and install illithid grafts (LoM). No, illithids are not a good idea here, because you'll wake up without a brain. Try a relatively trustworthy shapeshifter who can take the form of an illithid, or destroy the mind of an illithid and then use one of the myriad ways of inhabiting its body and do it yourself; those are much better ideas. Have 'em put you (or your body, at least) under for a few weeks (best done in quintessence) and remove your skin, turning it into an illithid humanoid skin graft. Now, ensure it's preserved via gentle repose or similar, and then enhance it as a magic item or twenty, which will take up your magic item slots, (?)(un)fortunately(?). Then reinstall.

My favorite is the below WoC sanctified psychoactive skin of proteus, with a built-in 'possum pouch that is itself enhanced as a handy haversack + sanctified enveloping pit (for a 10' x 10' x 50' haversack), with hands that act like gloves of the master strategist to shrink items and auto-store them in your pouch.

Now you're a shapeshifter who has his own video game inventory.

Holy Psychoactive Skin, Batman!
Use the Words of Creation (WoC) feat on a sanctified psychoactive skin of proteus. Now you've got +1 ML for fairly cheap on it, and you can use it to turn into creatures of 8 HD or lower. This works well for any psionic or magic item, really, but on the skin of proteus it's especially valuable.

[edit] And here (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?285801-Tippy-s-Terrifically-Terrible-Trial/page25&p=15474863#post15474863) is an exercise in how combining disparate items to enhance unarmed strikes can get you epic levels in special abilities for cheap.

Troacctid

2020-03-20, 07:59 PM

I would submit greater vestments of power (from Magic of Faerun) as one of the most impressive purchasable items in the game at its price point of 200,000 gp. It allows you to cast dimension door and true seeing (not self-only!) at will, and then it has a whole mess of other abilities on top of that.

PoeticallyPsyco

2020-03-20, 08:19 PM

The Starmantle Cloak is often mentioned as stupidly overpowered, even at the high level when you can afford it.

Also, there are some very fun artifacts out there (though you can't create those yourself as a player, as far as I know). One of my favorites is the Regalia of Neutrality from the Arms & Equipment Guide.

Last and least, Weapons of Legacy (which can be any magic item, not just a weapon). There are quite a few fun things you can do with these, but the costs are almost always not worth it. One thing they can do is open the door for further optimization, since a lot of optimization tricks require the item already have some quality (e.g. Ancestral Relic must be of at least masterwork quality), and turning it into a Legacy item can usually give it that quality (as early as 5th level, you can make your item a +1 improvised weapon, and therefore of masterwork quality). I don't know if that specific example actually works, but you get the idea that Legacy traits can qualify you for other tricks.

MaxiDuRaritry

2020-03-20, 08:32 PM

Weapons of LegacyUgh. Why didn't they just name the book what it really is? DIY: Horribly Cursed Items Nobody Will Ever Use.

Quertus

2020-03-20, 08:51 PM

the ultimate weapon or armor that would make people kill each other to obtain

Well, as long as killing people is on the table, I'll recommend Belt of the Dread Emperor. For… 120k?… you can convert humanoid HP to spells, at the rate of HP = spell level².

Goes really well with your "spells do everything i want" mindset.

bundlesandflows

2020-03-20, 09:05 PM

NotASpiderSwarm

2020-03-20, 09:12 PM

MaxiDuRaritry

2020-03-20, 09:25 PM

Glimbur

2020-03-20, 09:42 PM

Mirrors of opposition are quite abusable, if you can find a way to trap the clone and keep the equipment on it. There was one trick with that, although I don't remember where it is. Google isn't doing anything for me, but it was a pretty neat trick. Anyone else have any luck finding it?

Easiest thing to do is put the gear to be copied on an orphan, show them the mirror, then knock out the copy with subdual damage. There are more exotic methods I am sure but what other way lets you start off a new adventurer via traumatic experience?

Biggus

2020-03-20, 10:58 PM

Agreed that most artifacts are a bit disappointing.

Vest of the Archmagi (MiC) is 200,000GP but should cost at least twice that based on what it does.

Gruftzwerg

2020-03-21, 01:47 AM

Imho the ultimate crafting exploit is to craft Shuriken^^

edit: beside from that, the regular weapon to go for the base ubercharger build would be a +5 weapon + valorous (+1) + (maybe keen on top) for double dmg on charge.

MaxiDuRaritry

2020-03-21, 01:55 AM

Imho the ultimate crafting exploit is to craft Shuriken^^+1 Morphing sizing shuriken, of course. 1/50 the cost of a +1 weapon, and you can turn them into whatever weapon you want. Feel free to add additional enhancements for 1/50 the cost, as well. Then turn them into poison rings (from Dragon Compendium), enhance them as rings, and so on. Add the ringsword enhancement to all of your weapons, turn them into poison rings, then daisy-chain them together as long as you want. Best done with weapon enhancements that grant bonus feats, so you can DCFS them out for whatever you want.

Did I mention they're 1/50 the cost of a normal weapon? Because that makes those feats pretty cheap.

Even better if you've got access to a tooth of Leraje, from Tome of Magic. If you've got a spellthief in the party, he can buff all of your weapons with the 1/day CL 20 greater magic weapon, as well as the rest of your party. Feel free to hire one, if not.

Gruftzwerg

2020-03-21, 02:06 AM

+1 Morphing sizing shuriken, of course. 1/50 the cost of a +1 weapon, and you can turn them into whatever weapon you want. Feel free to add additional enhancements for 1/50 the cost, as well. Then turn them into poison rings (from Dragon Compendium), enhance them as rings, and so on. Add the ringsword enhancement to all of your weapons, turn them into poison rings, then daisy-chain them together as long as you want. Best done with weapon enhancements that grant bonus feats, so you can DCFS them out for whatever you want.

Did I mention they're 1/50 the cost of a normal weapon? Because that makes those feats pretty cheap.

Even better if you've got access to a tooth of Leraje, from Tome of Magic. If you've got a spellthief in the party, he can buff all of your weapons with the 1/day CL 20 greater magic weapon, as well as the rest of your party. Feel free to hire one, if not.

while we are at it. can you recommend any Shuriken handbook/guide? I would like to add a link to my Shuriken build as additional info, but haven't seen/found any complete so far and I am still looking for a good one.

MaxiDuRaritry

2020-03-21, 02:09 AM

while we are at it. can you recommend any Shuriken handbook/guide? I would like to add a link to my Shuriken build as additional info, but haven't seen/found any complete so far and I am still looking for a good one.JaronK is always good for guides. (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=10419.0)

Gruftzwerg

2020-03-21, 02:12 AM

JaronK is always good for guides. (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=10419.0)

ty, i'll look into it.

Bohandas

2020-03-21, 02:31 AM

MaxiDuRaritry

2020-03-21, 02:33 AM

Look into the Wondrois Architecture from Stronghold Builder's Guidebook as well as the wall augmentations and especially the mobile stronghold options. A lot of this stuff is more powerful than any single spell simply because of the sheer volume and weight that it affects.It also tends to be insanely expensive.

I mean, you could load the effects onto the above shurikens, or use planar binding on a genie with a wish, but that's about the only way any of them are affordable.

the_tick_rules

2020-03-21, 09:17 AM

If I remember correctly, combining the starmantle cloak with the Evasion class feature makes you immune to all weapon attacks contingent on beating a trivial Reflex save, which I have to imagine is a totally intended game mechanic and not the result of a lack of editing.

Not that good. It makes you immune to non-magical weapons. Against non-magical weapons or missiles you get a reflex save for half damage. It has no function against spells and since it specifically says weapons I would say it doesn't function against falling rocks, dragon breath etc. I'm also not entirely sure on the idea that it stacks with evasion. Evasion specifically says against an attack that deals half damage on a successful save. Weapon attacks don't have a normal reflex save for half.

the_tick_rules

2020-03-21, 09:40 AM

NotASpiderSwarm

2020-03-21, 09:47 AM

Not that good. It makes you immune to non-magical weapons. Against non-magical weapons or missiles you get a reflex save for half damage. It has no function against spells and since it specifically says weapons I would say it doesn't function against falling rocks, dragon breath etc. I'm also not entirely sure on the idea that it stacks with evasion. Evasion specifically says against an attack that deals half damage on a successful save. Weapon attacks don't have a normal reflex save for half.Nope, you're immune to non-magical weapons, and get a save(that you auto) against MAGIC weapons. It's 200,000(+25,000 for a Ring of Evasion) to be immune to all melee attacks.
Starmantle Cloak: This draping black cloak turns into a sparkling mantle of tiny, cascading stars when worn. The cloak sheds light as a torch, renders the wearer impervious to nonmagical weapon attacks, and transforms any nonmagical weapon or missile that strikes the wearer into harmless light, destroying it. Contact with the starmantle does not destroy magic weapons or missiles, but the starmantle’s wearer is entitled to a DC 15 Reflex save each time he is struck by such a weapon; success indicates that the wearer takes only half damage from the attack
As for evasion, the normal situation for a character with a Starmantle Cloak is that she receives half damage from melee attacks. Evasion even references "Attacks" rather than "spells".
At 2nd level and higher, a rogue can avoid even magical and unusual attacks with great agility. If she makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, she instead takes no damage. Evasion can be used only if the rogue is wearing light armor or no armor. A helpless rogue does not gain the benefit of evasion.

MaxiDuRaritry

2020-03-21, 09:55 AM

+5: A weapon that doesn't hit often and hard is uselessEnhancement bonuses above +1 are pointless and almost less than worthless, since well-chosen weapon abilities are vastly superior in all ways, and the additional enhancement bonus points above +1 are actively hindering your ability to gain more +1 equivalents at a reasonable price.

After all, pretty much anyone with any competence and a spellcaster on-hand will have access to greater magic weapon, which doesn't stack with the weapon's enhancement bonus. Anyone who doesn't have a spellcaster on-hand really shouldn't be adventuring. And for groups who don't include T1s or T2s, getting items of greater magic weapon typically isn't too hard. And when that isn't the case? There are STILL better options than increasing the enhancement bonus by a few piddly points.

the_tick_rules

2020-03-21, 09:57 AM

the_tick_rules

2020-03-21, 10:04 AM

Enhancement bonuses above +1 are pointless and almost less than worthless, since well-chosen weapon abilities are vastly superior in all ways, and the additional enhancement bonus points above +1 are actively hindering your ability to gain more +1 equivalents at a reasonable price.

After all, pretty much anyone with any competence and a spellcaster on-hand will have access to greater magic weapon, which doesn't stack with the weapon's enhancement bonus. Anyone who doesn't have a spellcaster on-hand really shouldn't be adventuring. And for groups who don't include T1s or T2s, getting items of greater magic weapon typically isn't too hard. And when that isn't the case? There are STILL better options than increasing the enhancement bonus by a few piddly points.

I remember a thread about that, I forget if you were there. It is strong as heck absolutely but it has the drawback of requiring a lot of things to go right. The other person is very dependent on the caster to be available and have the slots available at all times. It would also mean if there are multiple people waiting for the buff the are waiting in line for a couple rounds or the caster has to burn a lot of quicken slots. It is powerful as heck if done properly I agree but combat is chaos, expect things to go wrong.

MaxiDuRaritry

2020-03-21, 10:07 AM

I remember a thread about that, I forget if you were there. It is strong as heck absolutely but it has the drawback of requiring a lot of things to go right. The other person is very dependent on the caster to be available and have the slots available at all times. It would also mean if there are multiple people waiting for the buff the are waiting in line for a couple rounds or the caster has to burn a lot of quicken slots. It is powerful as heck if done properly I agree but combat is chaos, expect things to go wrong.Buy a pearl of power or two for the party's caster to use that spell slot on your behalf. Cheaper than a +5 enhancement bonus, and it is much harder to dispel than the base CL for a regular weapon.

Gruftzwerg

2020-03-21, 10:13 AM

Enhancement bonuses above +1 are pointless and almost less than worthless, since well-chosen weapon abilities are vastly superior in all ways, and the additional enhancement bonus points above +1 are actively hindering your ability to gain more +1 equivalents at a reasonable price.

After all, pretty much anyone with any competence and a spellcaster on-hand will have access to greater magic weapon, which doesn't stack with the weapon's enhancement bonus. Anyone who doesn't have a spellcaster on-hand really shouldn't be adventuring. And for groups who don't include T1s or T2s, getting items of greater magic weapon typically isn't too hard. And when that isn't the case? There are STILL better options than increasing the enhancement bonus by a few piddly points.

sure, you start with a +1 weapon and first stack the desired effects. When you have those you start to spend gold and upgrade it up to +5.
You take the +5 either because you are not a full BAB build and need the bonus to hit or because you are stacking charge multiplier and take any bonus dmg that gets multiplied. And if you now come with "but Collision gives +5dmg for +2price", yeah, if you want Collision first and than go +5. No reason to not get a +5 weapon once you can spare the gold and don't need it on something more important anymore.
It may not have high priority but still a nice to have in any high lvl (non caster) build.

Quertus

2020-03-21, 10:57 AM

Despite the fact that this is the Playground, and someone can doubtless provide numbers on the relative effectiveness of various enchantment combinations vs expected foes, I think we'll likely have difficulty comparing "+5 weapon" vs "pearl of power" vs "spending spell slots (and spending the money on something else)".

I think that it's fair to say that, when you don't have a party / don't know who might be in your party, a) if you cannot cast the spell yourself, you may regret not improving it to +5 (depending on your build); when you can enchant the weapon yourself and actually want to use a weapon (Cleric, primarily), you're probably better off with just a +1 weapon, most of the time.

This, and my experiences, suggest to me that the optimal answer, for the optimal party, is to have a +1 weapon, and enchant it with Greater Magic Weapon, -unless- you happen to find a +5 weapon as part of random treasure (in which case, selling it back for half may not be worth the gear it buys, depending on the character's build).

So, for really simple math, a +3 weapon is worth 18k, sells for 9k. That buys you a +2 equivalent weapon, with 1k left over. A level 6 übercharger, or crit fisher, or CoDzilla who rolled a really lucky "exactly what they were looking for / proficient in" +3 weapon - would they keep it? Should they keep it? Let's pretend that whatever weapon they were using just got destroyed, so there's no "but they would already have a weapon" issues to contend with.

My guess is as follows: the crit fisher really wants "keen", and would sell it for a +1 keen weapon, pocketing the 1k; the Cleric, unable to cast Greater Magic Weapon just yet would keep the +3 for now, and sell it next level; the übercharger would keep the +3 for a very long time (or until they rolled something better).

The Cleric would be sad if someone successfully dispelled their Greater Magic Weapon (because, unlike the +3 bonus, it won't just come back in 1d4 rounds)… but, then again, they'd be sad if someone dispelled any of the dwoemers that keep them competitive.

Thoughts?

Biffoniacus_Furiou

2020-03-21, 12:15 PM

Sometimes weapons and/or armor that are randomly rolled as loot are just way too cool to toss aside. A long time ago I was running a game that got into the high levels (16+) and they did a side-quest to retrieve an optional mcguffin. One of the items I randomly rolled for loot on that adventure was a +4 Composite Longbow, Holy, Unholy, Bane x2. I didn't roll for the bane types, I picked good outsiders and evil outsiders, and named the bow The Destroyer of Heaven and Hell. The party's neutral aligned Fighter (role) kept that as his ranged weapon, for whenever he needed to use one.

Selling a +5 weapon (or any loot, for that matter) for 50% of value to replace it with more useful items is the default, but least optimal, way of going about that. Someone should have Mercantile Background and get the party 75% of value. Someone could have Ancestral Relic or similar, buy the item from the party at 50% (and get a portion of that back when loot is split), and add 100% of the item's value to their relic's value. The party's face character can make a Cha-based check to haggle a better deal than 50% of value, or even make an exchange for another item(s) of similar value. Or its full value can be used as payment for a Planar Binding or similar. Or any number of other uses that gets more value out of the loot than the default 50%.

There's no good reason, apart from house rules, to not use GMW over paying for a permanently higher enhancement bonus. An area dispel magic doesn't hit attended items, a targeted dispel magic on a creature doesn't hit that creature's items. So an enemy caster spends a (greater) dispel magic to target that one item to deprive you of up to a +4 bonus to attack and damage, so they spend a significant spell and action for an inconsequential benefit. In short, it's not even worth dispelling because the bonus is always going to be small relative to your current level. They could do some kind of chain spell (greater) dispel magic to hit all the characters and their items, but in that case you have bigger problems than the loss of a +4 to attack and damage. Disjunction is another story, but there are plenty of ways to prevent it (like Psionic Contingency: augmented Synchronicity and cast a wall spell/power to block line of sight/effect, or Contingency: Teleport behind the caster and AoO with a Sudden Stunning weapon or similar, or Celerity: cast Silence on a point in space to automatically interrupt the verbal component, or Divine Defiance and (improved) counterspell, etc.).

A magic weapon in and of itself isn't really going to contribute a lot to how much damage you deal, apart from a few very specific properties. Speed and Splitting are probably the most significant damage-increasing properties. Keen can be significant if you already have a high threat range, but that's very easy to do given how inexpensive it is (if you only get a +1 enhancement). Valorous is a huge benefit if the character does a lot of charge attacks, but it's just as cheap as Keen. Mage Bane is probably the only property that's a flat bonus to attack and damage that's worth the cost. You can try stacking Flaming, Frost, Shock, etc. but the cost scales exponentially while the benefit scales linearly, and a few more d6 of damage is barely noticeable, especially when high level enemies have resistance 10+ to several of those damage types. Subtlety gets an honorable mention because it's a flat 20k that doesn't increase the cost of other upgrades for an extra +4 to attack and damage. Apart from one big property and maybe a few small ones, it's not really worthwhile to spend anything more to upgrade your primary weapon unless you want to add other things besides damage. Non-enhancement-priced effects like Subtlety, Sudden Stunning, Displacement from OA, special materials, wand chambers, weapon crystals, etc. are generally worthwhile because they don't cause the cost to scale exponentially. Wrathful Healing is one of those other things that's generally worthwhile at the higher levels.

MaxiDuRaritry

2020-03-21, 01:56 PM

Another good idea for stacking item properties is a weapon crystal or armor crystal (especially if you're a warforged monk).

Stacking weapon crystals is an extremely cheap way of increasing your damage output and protecting your weapon from sundering, especially compared to adding the exponentially increasing +1d6 damage boosters. You're getting +1d6 acid/cold/electricity/fire/sonic regardless, but one is a scaling cost while the other is a flat (and relatively small) cost, even with the +50% markup.

As far as warforged monks go, you're adding the armor crystal onto your warforged plating, which IS you. It's your body. So getting that +10 hardness affects any damage you take that doesn't explicitly override it, which is very nice. Of course, this is one case wherein enhancement bonuses to AC are great as well, since those explicitly increase HP and hardness ratings, and since your armor IS you...

Troacctid

2020-03-21, 02:21 PM

To me the key word is normally. Normally to me is something that has the entry pass this save for half damage like dragon breath or traps. The starmantle cloak is not a normal thing, it also specifically says weapon or missiles (I have the book of exalted deeds by the way).
The ring of evasion has a different wording:

This ring continually grants the wearer the ability to avoid damage as if she had evasion. Whenever she makes a Reflex saving throw to determine whether she takes half damage, a successful save results in no damage.
This seems pretty ironclad to me.

the_tick_rules

2020-03-21, 03:07 PM

The ring of evasion has a different wording:

This seems pretty ironclad to me.

Personally if I was a DM I would say as if you had evasion means the evasion skill wording skill comes first. Otherwise you could argue you could perform evasion in heavy armor or while helpless, that would make the evasion ring far superior to the actual skill.

Biggus

2020-03-21, 03:27 PM

CIDE

2020-03-21, 03:28 PM

Wasn't the Ringsword a specific item instead of an enhancement that could be tossed onto any weapon? AFB but I thought this was the case.

Crichton

2020-03-21, 03:35 PM

Personally if I was a DM I would say as if you had evasion means the evasion skill wording skill comes first. Otherwise you could argue you could perform evasion in heavy armor or while helpless, that would make the evasion ring far superior to the actual skill.

Then you'd be wrong, and doing so would constitute you (as DM) making a houserule alteration to the actual rules. While that is of course always the DM's right, the text of the Ring says what it says, so you'd be directly going against it.

As for the armor question, the prohibition on using Evasion while in Medium or Heavy armor only applies to Rogues and Monks, as per the Evasion entry's text itself, not to every creature that has Evasion. In other words, that's not a property of Evasion, it's a property of the Rogue and Monk class.

the_tick_rules

2020-03-21, 03:49 PM

Yeah that's a good point. But I'm sticking with if you have a reflex save over 15 starmantle cloak+ring of evasion is not immunity to weapons.

MaxiDuRaritry

2020-03-21, 04:15 PM

Wasn't the Ringsword a specific item instead of an enhancement that could be tossed onto any weapon? AFB but I thought this was the case.You can add such features to other items. It's especially easy with an item that can become a sword to add ringsword to. Alternately, you could add other features to ringsword items.

the_tick_rules

2020-03-21, 04:16 PM

You can add such features to other items. It's especially easy with an item that can become a sword to add ringsword to. Alternately, you could add other features to ringsword items.

where are those things? I remember them but I can't remember where. while the topic is up does a ringsword and mage hand mean 4 ring slots?

MaxiDuRaritry

2020-03-21, 04:18 PM

where are those things? I remember them but I can't remember where.The item rules are in the MIC. Ringswords are, IIRC, in the A&EG. AFB, though.

while the topic is up does a ringsword and mage hand mean 4 ring slots?Yes.

the_tick_rules

2020-03-21, 04:23 PM

what's AFB? I know the other is arms and equipment guide.

MaxiDuRaritry

2020-03-21, 04:26 PM

what's AFB? I know the other is arms and equipment guide.Away from book. I hate text typing. Bleh.

sorcererlover

2020-03-21, 04:56 PM

Yeah that's a good point. But I'm sticking with if you have a reflex save over 15 starmantle cloak+ring of evasion is not immunity to weapons.

Evasion (Ex)

At 2nd level and higher, a rogue can avoid even magical and unusual attacks with great agility. If she makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, she instead takes no damage. Evasion can be used only if the rogue is wearing light armor or no armor. A helpless rogue does not gain the benefit of evasion.

There is nothing in the Evasion skill that even remotely says it won't work with Starmantle Cloak.

the_tick_rules

2020-03-21, 05:47 PM

AvatarVecna

2020-03-21, 07:40 PM

spells do everything i want so i never used magic items and always gave em to my party members. but playing ragnarok online and making god items and seeing how npcs talk about god items with fear in their voices made me wanna be a guy who makes god items.

Taking a different tactic from many in this thread I'm gonna go off on this point: the vast vast majority of NPCs will never see enough money for that to even matter. A untrained laborer making 1sp/day could afford a +1 dagger if he worked for ~63 years without spending a single copper. An apprentice craftsman with +12 could afford a +1 dagger if he worked for ~14 years without spending a single copper - but hey, if he's got 6 brothers, they can bang it out in just 2 years of no expenses! Someone blessed by the god of artifice with a +100 craft check who's somehow not an adventurer could theoretically afford a +1 dagger if he worked for "only" 28 weeks without spending a single copper (as long as he could figure out a way to consistently work on objects with a DC 110 to craft - easy if the Quick Crafting option can be stacked, harder if it can't).

"NPCs were impressed by this magic item" barely means anything. The difference between a staff of burning hands and a staff of meteor swarm means little to somebody who's having a good day if he wins a fight with a house cat. NPCs can be impressed with some fairly mediocre (Ex) magic tricks.

As for what magic items should impress them...that's harder to say. What makes something a god item in your eyes? How optimal an expenditure of resources it is? Certainly a candle of invocation would be spoken of in hushed whispers the same way one might while speaking of an actual working genie lamp. Its in-game reputation? A staff of power is a thing of legends, even if it's not all that impressive mechanically. Sheer price regardless of whether the effect is actually worth the price tag? Undoubtedly you could make an at-will or continuous item of a CL 20 cantrip made into a 9th lvl spell through metamagic shenanigans, and it would fetch quite a price on the market, despite being objectively garbage.

newguydude1

2020-03-21, 08:00 PM

Taking a different tactic from many in this thread I'm gonna go off on this point: the vast vast majority of NPCs will never see enough money for that to even matter. A untrained laborer making 1sp/day could afford a +1 dagger if he worked for ~63 years without spending a single copper. An apprentice craftsman with +12 could afford a +1 dagger if he worked for ~14 years without spending a single copper - but hey, if he's got 6 brothers, they can bang it out in just 2 years of no expenses! Someone blessed by the god of artifice with a +100 craft check who's somehow not an adventurer could theoretically afford a +1 dagger if he worked for "only" 28 weeks without spending a single copper (as long as he could figure out a way to consistently work on objects with a DC 110 to craft - easy if the Quick Crafting option can be stacked, harder if it can't).

"NPCs were impressed by this magic item" barely means anything. The difference between a staff of burning hands and a staff of meteor swarm means little to somebody who's having a good day if he wins a fight with a house cat. NPCs can be impressed with some fairly mediocre (Ex) magic tricks.

As for what magic items should impress them...that's harder to say. What makes something a god item in your eyes? How optimal an expenditure of resources it is? Certainly a candle of invocation would be spoken of in hushed whispers the same way one might while speaking of an actual working genie lamp. Its in-game reputation? A staff of power is a thing of legends, even if it's not all that impressive mechanically. Sheer price regardless of whether the effect is actually worth the price tag? Undoubtedly you could make an at-will or continuous item of a CL 20 cantrip made into a 9th lvl spell through metamagic shenanigans, and it would fetch quite a price on the market, despite being objectively garbage.

something that lets you lift a mountain or cut the fabric of space time or create a black hole that consumes all or create a sun in the palm of your hand or something that makes you invincible or something like that.

rod of excellent magic and thought bottle are items of limitless energy.
sphere of annihilation is an artifact but uncraftable but i think its a god item.
if there is a way to get starmantle cloak and ring of evasion fused into one item then that would definitely count too.

no custom items or traps.

MaxiDuRaritry

2020-03-21, 08:34 PM

A spell component pouch. Not even an unusual one. It contains any nonmagical element or compound you care to name (as material components for fabricate, if nothing else), including iridium, cesium, chunks of cinnamon, water ice, dry ice, obdurium, adamantine, aurorum, apples, medium well chunks of steak, tiny tarts, and more. They may not be LARGE chunks, but there are infinite numbers of them, and they can be pulled out as a free action to be fabricated, or eaten, or whatever. It even contains artifacts, if the spell in the BoVD is anything to go by.

Of course, larger pouches contain larger artifacts, so feel free to get one suitable for Colossal spellcasters, so your limits are much wider.

Bohandas

2020-03-21, 08:37 PM

A Decanter of Endless Water can be used to run any of a variety of waterwheel-based perpetual motion machines and gives off clean drinkable water as an exhaust

the_tick_rules

2020-03-21, 08:48 PM

A Decanter of Endless Water can be used to run any of a variety of waterwheel-based perpetual motion machines and gives off clean drinkable water as an exhaust

in our world that would be one of the greatest items of all. besides free source for hydro dams imagine what it could do for agriculture.

Crichton

2020-03-21, 09:00 PM

Yeah that's a good point. But I'm sticking with if you have a reflex save over 15 starmantle cloak+ring of evasion is not immunity to weapons.

well for me it is because evasion says normally deals half damage on a successful save. swords and bows do not normally grant a save for half damage, that is a magical ability granted by the cloak. even if that would work I would say immunity to weapons is so broken a power that even if RAW allow it you should shut it down.

That's your prerogative, so long as you're openly stating (both here and to the players you're DMing for) that this is you exercising your Rule Zero right to create your own personal houserule, which goes in opposition to the printed rules.

Honestly my personal judgment on it is that you're overvaluing what it does. It's a powerful effect, to be sure, but by the time someone could reasonably afford both items, it's not as widespread of a defense as you're making it out to be. Spells, powers, Su abilities, heck, even regular unarmed strikes and slam attacks all bypass it.

Biggus

2020-03-21, 09:25 PM

Then you'd be wrong, and doing so would constitute you (as DM) making a houserule alteration to the actual rules. While that is of course always the DM's right, the text of the Ring says what it says, so you'd be directly going against it.

As for the armor question, the prohibition on using Evasion while in Medium or Heavy armor only applies to Rogues and Monks, as per the Evasion entry's text itself, not to every creature that has Evasion. In other words, that's not a property of Evasion, it's a property of the Rogue and Monk class.

No, this is nowhere near as cut and dried as you're making it sound. The text of the ring is that it "grants the wearer the ability to avoid damage as if she had evasion". It doesn't specify whether this includes it only working when wearing light or no armor. As I said earlier in the thread, most people interpret this as meaning that this restriction doesn't apply, but that's an assumption, not a fact. You are not "going directly against" the text of the Ring of Evasion because it doesn't say either way.

And neither is it unique to Rogues and Monks. The Ranger and Shadowdancer have exactly the same text, as do the majority of other classes which grant it. There's a reasonable argument to be made that "works only in light or no armor" is the default form of evasion and that you should use that unless it is specifically mentioned to be otherwise (as the Ninja and Divine Oracle do for example).

the_tick_rules

2020-03-21, 10:58 PM

we should return to ultimate item advice. an amulet that contains both poison and disease immunity is also a serious item.

Bohandas

2020-03-21, 11:12 PM

in our world that would be one of the greatest items of all. besides free source for hydro dams imagine what it could do for agriculture.

It doesn't even need to be a dam, it could easily be on wheels. And the wheels cpuld be powered by another waterwheel (Which BTW is how I imagine Murlynd traveling)

MaxiDuRaritry

2020-03-21, 11:18 PM

It doesn't even need to be a dam, it could easily be on wheels. And the wheels could be powered by another waterwheel (Which BTW is how I imagine Murlynd traveling)Just mount it on a minecart, point the spray backwards at maximum, and set it to follow tracks you have set up across the countryside, watering everything as it goes, using the spray as propulsion. If the tracks are set up correctly, the water will run down the sides into runnels, which funnel the water to where it needs to go. Let it go 24/7, and you should have plenty of water for a wide area. Do this with a lot of these over a lot of tracks, and you'll be fine.

OrbanSirgen

2020-03-21, 11:48 PM

Well, in a high-powered campaign I'm currently in, each character gets 6 magic items rolled randomly from the DMG... My human fighter got Bracers of Armor +8... The gnome illusionist got a sword of life stealing with evil bane, icy burst, flaming burst, and speed... Needless to say, the other human fighter in the party constantly wants to borrow it...

Bohandas

2020-03-22, 12:17 AM

MaxiDuRaritry

2020-03-22, 12:36 AM

For 163800 gp you can get a a command word activated device with Planar Bubble. This can make you immortal. You just need to get some little creature from the astral plane, put the item on it, carry the critter around with you, and remember to say the command word every two hoursWell, if it's a plane that is timeless with regards to magic, you only need to ever use it once. That'll cut down on the cost and upkeep considerably. It does cause problems insofar as you rely on keeping your pet near you.

Have you ever considered a single-use item of acorn of far travel, instead? Just plant the oak tree on a plane that is timeless with regards to both magic and aging and cast it on an acorn from it. Alternatively, get an acorn from Ysgard, cast permanency on the bespelled acorn, and get rezzed for free every morning. Either way, feel free to cast long-lasting AoE spells to buff you that you cast under said tree. As many as you can. Preferably permanent ones (which is easier than you might think, especially on timeless-with-regards-to-magic acorns). Expand this list using (un)hallow + spells tied to them. Feel free to cast them around the edges of the tree, such that there are several areas with different companion spells tied to different areas under the tree. Pick and choose which one you want at any given time.

Yeah but that limits your ability to use the water for anything but propulsion. I imagine a setup where there are several other waterwheels powering various machines in addition to the one moving the vehicle. But in order to do that the water has to hit something in the vehicle which will push it in the opposite direction as the rocket effect.Just use that mirror of opposition trick (Aha! Found it here (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?246396-Another-Addition-To-The-Tippyverse)!) to clone one a bunch. Feel free to use the extras however you see fit, including to generate motion and/or electricity. Unfortunately, you'll need some way to get rid of the excess water, else you'll (eventually) flood the planet, since you're pulling it in from Elsewhere, rather than just 'porting it in from underground reservoirs or something.

OrbanSirgen

2020-03-22, 12:44 AM

Have you ever considered a single-use item of acorn of far travel, instead? Just plant the oak tree on a plane that is timeless with regards to both magic and aging and cast it on an acorn from it.

Except the tree wouldn't grow without aging...

MaxiDuRaritry

2020-03-22, 01:03 AM

Except the tree wouldn't grow without aging...O RLY? (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/plantGrowth.htm)

(Also, transplanting is a thing. Also this (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#tree).)

Telonius

2020-03-22, 07:22 AM

no custom items or traps.

Important distinction there.

This one of the more common (and commonly-banned) bits of optimization, but: Nightsticks (from Libris Mortis). Not very dangerous when encountered individually. But in large groups, with a Cleric with Divine Metamagic and Persistent Spell, you can make pretty much any spell with a duration into a 24-hour-long thing. (Just beware of Reciprocal Gyre). They're relatively cheap, too, at 7500 gp.

Kalkra

2020-03-22, 09:50 AM

I just skimmed the previous posts, but it seems like nobody mentioned the Crescent Knife and Scourge from Dragon #275, or the Braid Blade from Dungeon #120. Remember, that's what you turn your morphing shirukens into. Did it say "No Dragon/Dungeon" somewhere that I missed?

MaxiDuRaritry

2020-03-22, 10:06 AM

Crescent knife + manyfang dagger property = x8 damage?

Bohandas

2020-03-22, 10:44 AM

What book is acorn of far travel from?

EDIT:
and in any case, my version has the slight advantage that it can also work with the elemental plane of fire, which would quickly kill a tree.

MaxiDuRaritry

2020-03-22, 11:05 AM

What book is acorn of far travel from?Das be here (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20040710a).

EDIT:
and in any case, my version has the slight advantage that it can also work with the elemental plane of fire, which would quickly kill a tree.That's what half-fire-elemental oak treants are for.

Crichton

2020-03-22, 11:07 AM

No, this is nowhere near as cut and dried as you're making it sound.

On the contrary, it's exactly that cut and dried. There's zero room for ambiguity on this point, in the text of the ring itself.

The text of the ring is that it "grants the wearer the ability to avoid damage as if she had evasion".

You're conveniently ignoring the second half of the Ring's entry. Let's look at its text in whole, not part:

This ring continually grants the wearer the ability to avoid damage as if she had evasion. Whenever she makes a Reflex saving throw to determine whether she takes half damage, a successful save results in no damage.

That second sentence ends any question as to what the rules on the Ring say. It's not subject to any other limitations, because that specific entry has outlined its function fully and clearly.

It doesn't specify whether this includes it only working when wearing light or no armor. As I said earlier in the thread, most people interpret this as meaning that this restriction doesn't apply, but that's an assumption, not a fact.

It doesn't need to specify. It would only need to specify that if it wanted to add that limitation. Since that limitation isn't the default status, it doesn't need to say anything about it.

I think you're seeing the classes that have a class feature named Evasion and assuming that those are the default entry, but they're not. They're specific class features whose rules only apply to the class they're from, and not to anything else (unless that something else directly references the class and its feature, but it doesn't here. The ring doesn't say 'the ability to avoid damage as if she had the Rogue class feature Evasion.')

The default Evasion entry, when no class is referenced, is the Special Ability entry 'Evasion and Improved Evasion' found here: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#evasionAndImprovedEvasion

The only mention of armor limitations in that entry is a reference to how Rogues and Monks have that limitation, but other creatures don't necessarily have it unless specifically stated otherwise (why they left off Ranger in their list I don't know. Perhaps because it's a combined entry for both Evasion and the Improved version, and Rangers only get the basic? Not really relevant)

You are not "going directly against" the text of the Ring of Evasion because it doesn't say either way.

Yes, you are. The ring's entry references the general Evasion rules (from the Special Abilities entry, not the class features), and then it adds a sentence (quoted above) that clarifies how the ring's version of it works. So any ambiguities about 'normal' attacks in the general entry aren't relevant to the ring, nor are any specific limitations on Evasion the class feature and armor, because those limitations are specific alterations to the general Evasion rule, which aren't present in the text the ring provides.

And neither is it unique to Rogues and Monks. The Ranger and Shadowdancer have exactly the same text, as do the majority of other classes which grant it. There's a reasonable argument to be made that "works only in light or no armor" is the default form of evasion and that you should use that unless it is specifically mentioned to be otherwise (as the Ninja and Divine Oracle do for example).

No, there's no reasonable argument at all to be made from that. In fact, the presence of the specific text in each of those classes with reference to armor limitations actually point to the general rule on Evasion being the opposite: no armor restrictions. IF the 'default form of evasion' had armor restrictions, the class features wouldn't have had to put specific exception text in them, every single time they wanted to add that limitation.

The default version of evasion is that there is no armor restriction at all unless the specific class or creature entry says so. The ring doesn't say so, therefore there isn't a restriction.

As always, and as the_tick_rules has done, DMs are free to alter this via houserules, but the text of the item is quite clear. And as decently powerful a defense as it is, the cloak and ring probably aren't even the 'best' use of your 157000gp worth of buying power. That's a lot of gold, and too many things can still get through.

Maat Mons

2020-03-22, 04:45 PM

Well, in terms of things the common folk would value, there's always an Eternal Wand of Plant Growth. One of those can give 300,000 acres of land a 30% boost in productivity. I can imagine nations going to war for possession of something like that.

A Platform of Healing would basically eliminate all disease in a 10-mile radius. Farther if people are willing to spend a night away from home.

Troacctid

2020-03-22, 06:23 PM

Well, in terms of things the common folk would value, there's always an Eternal Wand of Plant Growth. One of those can give 300,000 acres of land a 30% boost in productivity. I can imagine nations going to war for possession of something like that.
Hand of the oak father is cheaper at only 5,000 gp. It has no activation requirements (no need to be an arcane caster), it has five other spells it can cast (including MVPs goodberry and speak with plants, as well as barkskin, entangle, and tree shape), and it is highly durable (as tough as steel, but with universal energy resistance 10). I personally think it's underrated.

Even still, I don't know if I'd classify this sort of effect as an "ultimate item." You only need to be a 5th-level druid to craft them.

ShurikVch

2020-03-22, 06:36 PM

Sentient items are Constructs;
thus - creatures;
on a creature, we may apply some templates;
So...
Demon Lord
Kaiju
Psionic Creature
..?

Maat Mons

2020-03-22, 07:25 PM

MaxiDuRaritry

2020-03-22, 07:34 PM

Well, there's always infinite power generation. One scroll of wall of fire and one of permanency. Do it right and you can start off the Technomagical Revolution yourself.

Speaking of, I wonder what the voltage and amperage of a minimum ML wall of energy (electricity) would be...

newguydude1

2020-03-22, 07:40 PM

Don't let the low level and cheap price fool you. Large-scale agricultural improvements have more world-altering potential then any crummy magic sword, no matter how good that sword is at killing things.

no one fears garden of eden creation kit. especially not in a setting where anyone can farm anything anywhere.

everyone fears nukes in every setting.

i havent looked up everything everyone said in this thread because i am afb. but some items from ragnarok online are... meginjard which gives 40-75 str, brynhild which gives you a lot of survivability and makes you immune to knockback, sleipnir that gives you a lot of survivability and maximum movement speed all day. mjolnir is power crept though but when it first came out it was the best weapon for classes that can use hammers.

so im not looking for things that are too strong, but its gotta be strong one way or another other than as farming tool or something that turns a water wheel.

Sentient items are Constructs;
thus - creatures;
on a creature, we may apply some templates;
So...
Demon Lord
Kaiju
Psionic Creature
..?

i thought about this before and i think it works. ubercharging construct but constructs dont have feats so that got shot down. maxhd golem with intelligence like hellfire golem might be able to do it. dont know about templates. can you craft golem with template? but yeah, lack of intelligence is lack of feats and featless high hd constructs kinda suck. only one i know of that has good su ability is that hellfire engine with the nice breath attack but even that isnt that great cause reflex save and evasion.

Maat Mons

2020-03-22, 08:28 PM

By D&D standards, I don't think bigger numbers are that impressive. If you want items a high-level character would like to have, here are some:

Bracers of Armor +1 with Greater Fortification and Proof Against Transmutation abilities: Baleful Polymorph and Flesh to Stone are kind of hard to gain immunity to. And immunity to critical hits too because why not?
Cowl of Warding: It doesn't matter how high your will save is, without something like this, you'll eventually roll a 1 and become an NPC.
Greater Pectoral of Maneuverability: Upgrade your flight to perfect maneuverability... if you care.
Hathran Mask of True Seeing: Never suffer a miss chance again.
Ring of Death Ward: It doesn't matter how high your fortitude save is, without something like this, you'll eventually roll a 1 and die.
Ring of Solar Wings: You need to be able to fly, obviously. And 150 feet is pretty fast.

NPCs won't speak of these items in hushed whispers though. Most of them protect from things that NPCs don't have a firm grasp on. And the wing one would readily be confused with all the other things that magically give players wings.

Oh, but people total do kill eachother over the Tooth of Leraje. Only one exists, there's no way to make more, and half the characters on this board are statted out as having it.

A though occurs! The three best items in the game are and epic-level Warforged Cleric, and epic-level Warforged Druid, and an epic-level Warforged Wizard.

Biggus

2020-03-22, 09:39 PM

You're conveniently ignoring the second half of the Ring's entry. Let's look at its text in whole, not part:

This ring continually grants the wearer the ability to avoid damage as if she had evasion. Whenever she makes a Reflex saving throw to determine whether she takes half damage, a successful save results in no damage.

You can't take the second sentence in isolation. It's already specified that it works "as if she had evasion" so if the default form of evasion is that it only works in light or no armor, the second sentence has to be seen in the light of that.

Yes, you are. The ring's entry references the general Evasion rules (from the Special Abilities entry, not the class features), and then it adds a sentence (quoted above) that clarifies how the ring's version of it works. So any ambiguities about 'normal' attacks in the general entry aren't relevant to the ring, nor are any specific limitations on Evasion the class feature and armor, because those limitations are specific alterations to the general Evasion rule, which aren't present in the text the ring provides.

I'm not the only one who's conveniently ignoring things.

Rogues and monks cannot use evasion in medium or heavy armor. Some creatures with the evasion ability as an innate quality do not have this limitation.

This doesn't mention any other classes or items or anything else as being able to ignore the restriction, only creatures which have it as an innate quality. If anything other than those creatures lack the limitation, why did they specify only those?

Bohandas

2020-03-22, 10:01 PM

Well, there's always infinite power generation. One scroll of wall of fire and one of permanency. Do it right and you can start off the Technomagical Revolution yourself.

But a decanter of endless water would obviate the need for steam due to the reasons discussed above.

MaxiDuRaritry

2020-03-22, 10:24 PM

i thought about this before and i think it works. ubercharging construct but constructs dont have feats so that got shot down. maxhd golem with intelligence like hellfire golem might be able to do it. dont know about templates. can you craft golem with template? but yeah, lack of intelligence is lack of feats and featless high hd constructs kinda suck. only one i know of that has good su ability is that hellfire engine with the nice breath attack but even that isnt that great cause reflex save and evasion.How 'bout the awaken construct spell? Maximize and Empower or Intensify to guarantee much higher mental scores.

newguydude1

2020-03-22, 10:29 PM

How 'bout the awaken construct spell? Maximize and Empower or Intensify to guarantee much higher mental scores.

awoken construct tells you he wants to be a woman and leaves you to go on a one woman show tour.

i read unseenmage's mind control threads and they are too fragile and iffy on the rules too.

Pugwampy

2020-03-23, 01:24 AM

MaxiDuRaritry

2020-03-23, 01:50 AM

Which sourcebook is this found in ?It's in the DMG under Cursed Items.

skunk3

2020-03-23, 03:27 AM

well for me it is because evasion says normally deals half damage on a successful save. swords and bows do not normally grant a save for half damage, that is a magical ability granted by the cloak. even if that would work I would say immunity to weapons is so broken a power that even if RAW allow it you should shut it down.

I'm with you on this. The wording says "normally." Weapon attacks do not normally offer half damage on a successful save like this. It would only become "normal" after the PC has purchased/crafted/has access to a Ring of Evasion.

Also, and I've seen some arguments about this, but is my RAI opinion the Starmantle Cloak ONLY halves the physical damage -- not the total damage including stuff like holy/frost/flaming/etc.

The Starmantle Cloak is cheesy enough as it is. To allow it to work in conjunction with a Ring of Evasion to make a character immune to melee attacks is ludicrous.

What is cheesy and completely RAW legal is pairing the Starmantle Cloak with the Retributive Amulet. Get hit with a magical weapon in combat, make a measly DC15 reflex save, take half damage... but wait, there's more! The damage that you should take is then divided into two and half goes to you and half goes back to the attacker. So basically, you're taking 1/4th the damage and reflecting 1/4 of it back. As a cherry on top, the amulet also gives you a +2 sacred bonus to AC, which can be sometimes hard to get.

skunk3

2020-03-23, 03:49 AM

No, there's no reasonable argument at all to be made from that. In fact, the presence of the specific text in each of those classes with reference to armor limitations actually point to the general rule on Evasion being the opposite: no armor restrictions. IF the 'default form of evasion' had armor restrictions, the class features wouldn't have had to put specific exception text in them, every single time they wanted to add that limitation.

I am pretty sure that the reason why there isn't specific text in the general description of Evasion as an ability stating how it cannot be used in medium and heavy armors is because some monsters and non-humanoid creatures have Evasion as well, and they might not normally wear armor. For me, the RAI is abundantly clear here -- Evasion simply does not work unless you are in light armor or no armor because, as the entry states: "As with a Reflex save for any creature, evasion is a reflexive ability." It's kinda hard to be reflexive in heavy armor. It's not that Monks and Rogues CAN'T wear heavy armor. Of course they can. It's just that in order for them to be any good at what it is they are supposed to be good at, they can't be burdened. So while there is definitely a RAW argument to be made that Rings of Evasion will work on a PC wearing medium or heavy armor, I personally would veto that because that quite simply makes the ring better than Evasion as a class feature, which is stupid. Of course you guys are welcome to do whatever you want at your table, but I'm one of those guys who believes that RAI (when clear, as it is in this case) trumps RAW. Just picture it, a nimble Rogue in supple leather deftly reacting to avoid damage from a fireball, and some huge beatstick clanking around in heavy armor with a magic ring somehow avoiding damage too? That's just ridiculous.

Anyway, to get back on thread here... the Cowl of Warding is a nice item. Not 'ultimate' per se but pretty sweet. https://www.imarvintpa.com/dndlive/items.php?ID=4153

Gruftzwerg

2020-03-23, 04:01 AM

Dust of Sneezing and Choking, 2,400 GP. And would be broken at 10x the price. 20' AOE stun for 5d4 rounds(no save), with an additional save vs Con damage effect. Buy exactly one dose, use it only when you have no other choice, and buy pizza for the DM after as an apology. This is basically an auto-win against an entire room of enemies, no matter how powerful.

Just as friendly reminder. While it is a strong consumable, imho it is not as strong as some are thinking or one might assume on first glance. For the sake of RAW..(and preventing discussions between DMs and Players)..^^

If cast into the air, it causes those within a 20-foot spread to fall into fits of sneezing and coughing.

You can't throw it into a square as activation for the effect. You have to whirl it around you into the air, which means you and any ally within that 20ft spread are also affected.

So, it's not always an auto-win. Still, as front liner who has ranged allies to back him up or someone scouting at least 20ft. in front of his allies it's a great survival tool. Also for setting up traps with someone playing the bait while his allies (hide and ambush)/attack from a save distance. It's not totally OP, but still ridiculously strong.

skunk3

2020-03-23, 04:07 AM

Just as friendly reminder. While it is a strong consumable, imho it is not as strong as some are thinking or one might assume on first glance. For the sake of RAW..(and preventing discussions between DMs and Players)..^^

You can't throw it into a square as activation for the effect. You have to whirl it around you into the air, which means you and any ally within that 20ft spread are also affected.

So, it's not always an auto-win. Still, as front liner who has ranged allies to back him up or someone scouting at least 20ft. in front of his allies it's a great survival tool. Also for setting up traps with someone playing the bait while his allies (hide and ambush)/attack from a save distance. It's not totally OP, but still ridiculously strong.

Why couldn't a PC simply just put the dust in a glass bottle of some sort and turn it into a grenade-like weapon? I also don't see why it would HAVE TO affect yourself if you just sprinkle it down from above.

Asmotherion

2020-03-23, 04:37 AM

In the right hands, many items can get "''turned to 11".

Nightsticks for example, or metamagic rods.

Or a variety of spells, if you turn them to continuous magic items they can also be great; think an amulet of freedom of movement for example.

Finally an other great investment would be an item of a personal spell that's not on your spell list; Even if it is not personal, and a party member can cast it for you, you're better of not taxing them with a mandatory spell slot each encounter.

If you want something more "artifact-like"; a conuous or even charges per day item that casts Animate Dead and/or Create (greater) undead Can be a source of conflict between good and evil; One wanting to destroy it, the other to use it. Generally any item that toyes with Life and Death could fit this niche, both thematically, and numerically as it bypasses the cost of Animation/Resurection.

A fair example would be a Chalice that casts True resurection 3 times per day, A rod that casts each of Animate Dead, Create Undead and Create Greater Undead once per day Or a portal that activates a Gate effect to the Abyss, and costs nothing to Call creatures from.

For a weapon, any General purpose damaging spell would do, be it an Orb of Accid or Vitriolic Sphere from a Ring or an amulet that casts Wings of Flurry.

Gruftzwerg

2020-03-23, 04:38 AM

Why couldn't a PC simply just put the dust in a glass bottle of some sort and turn it into a grenade-like weapon? I also don't see why it would HAVE TO affect yourself if you just sprinkle it down from above.

Because the activation method described doesn't allow it, annoying but RAW. You don't have the permission to make an attack roll to throw it into a square. Noting in the description indicates that. You have to "cast it into the air" and not "throw it on the ground".

And a "20ft. spread" is something defined by the rules and you aren't allowed to change em as you wish. As comprehension see spellcasting where you need metamagic feats to be able to alter the shape of spelleffects. If you don't have the permission by other (rule-altering) rules, you are not allowed to alter the shape rules given in 3.5.

On a sidenote, imho, just think about it:

It's a cursed item (!), so it has to have drawbacks. And where is the drawback if you could throw it from a safe distance? It would just be a straight powerful item and would have no logical reason to be called a cures item. Everything in the description indicates that you cast it into the air around you and not somewhere else targeted.

Asmotherion

2020-03-23, 05:00 AM

Well, if it's a plane that is timeless with regards to magic, you only need to ever use it once. That'll cut down on the cost and upkeep considerably. It does cause problems insofar as you rely on keeping your pet near you.

Have you ever considered a single-use item of acorn of far travel, instead? Just plant the oak tree on a plane that is timeless with regards to both magic and aging and cast it on an acorn from it. Alternatively, get an acorn from Ysgard, cast permanency on the bespelled acorn, and get rezzed for free every morning. Either way, feel free to cast long-lasting AoE spells to buff you that you cast under said tree. As many as you can. Preferably permanent ones (which is easier than you might think, especially on timeless-with-regards-to-magic acorns). Expand this list using (un)hallow + spells tied to them. Feel free to cast them around the edges of the tree, such that there are several areas with different companion spells tied to different areas under the tree. Pick and choose which one you want at any given time.

Just use that mirror of opposition trick (Aha! Found it here (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?246396-Another-Addition-To-The-Tippyverse)!) to clone one a bunch. Feel free to use the extras however you see fit, including to generate motion and/or electricity. Unfortunately, you'll need some way to get rid of the excess water, else you'll (eventually) flood the planet, since you're pulling it in from Elsewhere, rather than just 'porting it in from underground reservoirs or something.

Or plant it in the center of a node, and cast all your spells Quickened and Hightened. :3

OrbanSirgen

2020-03-23, 05:50 AM

Just as friendly reminder. While it is a strong consumable, imho it is not as strong as some are thinking or one might assume on first glance. For the sake of RAW..(and preventing discussions between DMs and Players)..^^

You can't throw it into a square as activation for the effect. You have to whirl it around you into the air, which means you and any ally within that 20ft spread are also affected.

So, it's not always an auto-win. Still, as front liner who has ranged allies to back him up or someone scouting at least 20ft. in front of his allies it's a great survival tool. Also for setting up traps with someone playing the bait while his allies (hide and ambush)/attack from a save distance. It's not totally OP, but still ridiculously strong.

Simple solution: Have the Awakened construct use it... Constructs are immune to anything requiring a Fortitude save (unless it also affects objects), ability damage, and stunning...

Pugwampy

2020-03-23, 09:19 AM

It's in the DMG under Cursed Items.

Wow i was looking for it in DMG under magic items . Thanks .

Gruftzwerg

2020-03-23, 09:43 AM

Simple solution: Have the Awakened construct use it... Constructs are immune to anything requiring a Fortitude save (unless it also affects objects), ability damage, and stunning...

constructs and undead and other creatures that don't breathe are imho immune to the entire effect, since "sneezing and coughing" requires breathing in the first place. They aren't legal targets.

YellowJohn

2020-03-23, 10:49 AM

Most high-level items aren't very valuable for their gp cost. I find that combining lower- and mid-level items tends to be a lot more useful.

Truth.
It's a trick I use all the time in statting up my L35 epic heroes (What? Everyone has hobbies :smallwink:)

Another point to consider is that the items a world may speak of in whispers are as much to do with the stories the DM would weave around such legendary weapons.

Here is one of my favorites:
Tomoe Gozen is the Champion, Bodyguard, and Distant Ancestor of the Sun Emperor of Hachiman. She has lived now for over two thousand years, and it is rumoured that The Sun Empire will not fall while she lives. It is also rumoured that she will not die as long as The Sun Empire stands. She weilds Ame-no-Murakumo-no-Tsurigi; The Sword of the Heaven of the Gathering Clouds. Forged on the steppes of the Seven Mounting Heavens of Celestia itself by the spirit of the greatest swordsmith The Sun Empier had ever produced, - it is undoubtedly the finest weapon in an empire which prides itself on swordcraft.
The sword is an intelligent item with the special purpose to defend and uphold the honour of The Sun Empire, and while usually stoic it is quick to point out if an action suggested in its presence would be dishonourable. Many traitors, and even an emperor who sought power from the tainted creatures of The Shadowlands, have died on its blade. "If you act dishonourably," the people of Hachiman say, "Ame-no-Murakumo-no-Tsurigi will know..."

Ame-no-Murakumo-no-Tsurigi - 2,996,225gp
As a mundane item, it is a Soulforged Acid-washed Basket-hilted Blood-grooved Dwarvencraft Folded-metal Ornate Perfectly-balanced Razor-sharp Resilient Katana forged of Oerthblooded Pure-Ore Aurorum. It has a Hardness of 72 and 150 Hp. As an intelligent item made of Aurorum, it can spend a full-round action to fully repair itself.
Magically, it is a +10 Valorous Diamond-Mind Ioun Blade.
In the hands of Tomoe Gozen, it is also a Focus Everbright Jumping Sizing Spellblade of Initiative, gives untyped bonuses of +33 to Concentration, Sense Motive and Spot checks, and also grants a +1 bonus on Initiative checks if it is sheathed at the start of the encounter.
Finally, it is also an intelligent item (14/14/12, Ego 28) which speaks Common, Hachimani and Celestial, can communicate telepathically out to 120'. It has 60' Darkvision and 30' Blindsense. It can cast Faerie Fire, Shield, and Cure Moderate Wounds each 3/day, as well as Magic Circle against Evil and Phase Door at will - though it can only use the latter to further its special purpose.

Bohandas

2020-03-23, 12:11 PM

Troacctid

2020-03-23, 12:35 PM

Don't let the low level and cheap price fool you. Large-scale agricultural improvements have more world-altering potential then any crummy magic sword, no matter how good that sword is at killing things.
I'm not saying it's not useful. It's just not legendary. Technology that is relatively commonplace will become mundane regardless of how awe-inspiring it might theoretically have been to previous generations who didn't have it. Look at transportation, communication, even plumbing in our world. You ever see someone flabbergasted by a sink? Plant growth is ultimately just a particularly effective brand of high-end fertilizer. Posh, yes, but hardly on the same level as a ring of three wishes.

Gruftzwerg

2020-03-23, 12:43 PM

I'm not saying it's not useful. It's just not legendary. Technology that is relatively commonplace will become mundane regardless of how awe-inspiring it might theoretically have been to previous generations who didn't have it. Look at transportation, communication, even plumbing in our world. You ever see someone flabbergasted by a sink? Plant growth is ultimately just a particularly effective brand of high-end fertilizer. Posh, yes, but hardly on the same level as a ring of three wishes.

yeah, sadly humanity didn't become bored of killing stuff somehow..

Can i order a bunch of goblins to slay?^^

skunk3

2020-03-23, 01:28 PM

Because the activation method described doesn't allow it, annoying but RAW. You don't have the permission to make an attack roll to throw it into a square. Noting in the description indicates that. You have to "cast it into the air" and not "throw it on the ground".

And a "20ft. spread" is something defined by the rules and you aren't allowed to change em as you wish. As comprehension see spellcasting where you need metamagic feats to be able to alter the shape of spelleffects. If you don't have the permission by other (rule-altering) rules, you are not allowed to alter the shape rules given in 3.5.

On a sidenote, imho, just think about it:

It's a cursed item (!), so it has to have drawbacks. And where is the drawback if you could throw it from a safe distance? It would just be a straight powerful item and would have no logical reason to be called a cures item. Everything in the description indicates that you cast it into the air around you and not somewhere else targeted.

It is a fine dust contained in... what? A bag? Vellum? A pouch? Who knows? It doesn't say how it is stored when you buy it. I see no logical reason why anyone couldn't sprinkle it down from above and avoid its effects. I also see no reason why a PC couldn't just put the loose dust inside some sort of container and turn it into a thrown weapon. It's kinda hard to take fine dust in your hand and make a ranged attack with it but once said dust is put into, let's say, a small glass bottle (or anything that will shatter / open on impact) then that's a perfectly viable option. Why would it ONLY work if you threw it up into the air, exposing yourself to its effects? Is it self-aware? Would it refuse to 'work' unless dispersed exactly as it wills?

Anyway, the dust is clearly a powerful item and as a DM I would take a dim view of anyone using it more than once in a blue moon, especially if they are a good-aligned character. Using this dust is basically the same as using a poison and it should influence once's alignment.

Bohandas

2020-03-23, 01:29 PM

Just use that mirror of opposition trick (Aha! Found it here (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?246396-Another-Addition-To-The-Tippyverse)!) to clone one a bunch.

That trick is overly complicated. It says that it duplicates a "creature". Just put the items on a dog and have a blind man in padded armor hold the dog up to the mirror.

Kelb_Panthera

2020-03-23, 01:51 PM

Dust of sneezing and choking references dust of appearance. They're supposed to be indistinguishable from one another without the usual tricks for identifying cursed items.

That being the case:

Dust of appearance is typically stored in small silk packets or hollow bone tubes.

The text for both cleary indicates an AoE centered on the user.

Gruftzwerg

2020-03-23, 01:55 PM

It is a fine dust contained in... what? A bag? Vellum? A pouch? Who knows? It doesn't say how it is stored when you buy it. I see no logical reason why anyone couldn't sprinkle it down from above and avoid its effects. I also see no reason why a PC couldn't just put the loose dust inside some sort of container and turn it into a thrown weapon. It's kinda hard to take fine dust in your hand and make a ranged attack with it but once said dust is put into, let's say, a small glass bottle (or anything that will shatter / open on impact) then that's a perfectly viable option. Why would it ONLY work if you threw it up into the air, exposing yourself to its effects? Is it self-aware? Would it refuse to 'work' unless dispersed exactly as it wills?

Anyway, the dust is clearly a powerful item and as a DM I would take a dim view of anyone using it more than once in a blue moon, especially if they are a good-aligned character. Using this dust is basically the same as using a poison and it should influence once's alignment.

First, if you want to worsen your situation as DM by houseruling it stronger than intended, it's up to you ;)
RAW doesn't give you the option, simple as that.

And if you want to hear the implied intention/reasoning behind it, well..
I assume that you need to whirl it forcefully around you, so it can take effect in the right height.

Like, I could throw some dirt into you eye and cause a momentary effect on you. But what would it help if I would use the same dirt to throw it at you feet. Unless the dirt is so light and enough wind is there to pull it up to your eyes, there is no way that the dirt on your shoes will have an effect on your eyes.

So if I throw sneezing powder at your feet. How high is the chance that you sneeze? Unless the sneezing powder is so light or come with some sort of explosive to produce a burst of expansion, there is no way. Maybe you will sneeze once, but you are not as handicapped as with a direct hit.

The powder of sneezing and choking is the same. It doesn't work when you throw it on the ground because the powder ain't light enough to take of the ground and reach the the desired heights to take full effect.

And last, imagine it like trying to make a dust screen without explosives and with just whirling stuff around. Could you assure that the air in your space isn't covered by dust too? Including wind conditions? The rules are binary here. Either you put enough force and get a 20ft spread (and nothing else) or you don't and thus the attempt is wasted.

MaxiDuRaritry

2020-03-23, 01:56 PM

That trick is overly complicated. It says that it duplicates a "creature". Just put the items on a dog and have a blind man in padded armor hold the dog up to the mirror.I think the idea is that you have full control over the summons, so you have it do exactly what you want. The specially prepared pit (with quintessence) is to trap the clone before it can attack so there's a 0% chance of things going wrong, so either the clone or the summon (and thus the clone) dies. Then, since the clone is trapped in time, the duration of the mirror's effects is indefinite, keeping the cloned gear around.

Having a dog, even a trained one, held up to the mirror just means that the clone immediately attacks, and there's a good chance that one will die. Then you lose the cloned gear.

There needs to be that level of complexity, else it won't work.

Bohandas

2020-03-23, 04:54 PM

I think the idea is that you have full control over the summons, so you have it do exactly what you want. The specially prepared pit (with quintessence) is to trap the clone before it can attack so there's a 0% chance of things going wrong, so either the clone or the summon (and thus the clone) dies. Then, since the clone is trapped in time, the duration of the mirror's effects is indefinite, keeping the cloned gear around.

Having a dog, even a trained one, held up to the mirror just means that the clone immediately attacks, and there's a good chance that one will die. Then you lose the cloned gear.

There needs to be that level of complexity, else it won't work.

How about a transparent wall (Stronghold Builder's Guidebook pg.38 and pg.40) then? It's only 3000 gp plus the cost of the wall the effect is applied to.

MaxiDuRaritry

2020-03-23, 05:05 PM

How about a transparent wall (Stronghold Builder's Guidebook pg.38 and pg.40) then? It's only 3000 gp plus the cost of the wall the effect is applied to.You don't think that trapping your enemy in a, for them, inescapable prison isn't defeating them? Because I'm pretty sure that counts as defeating them.

Instantaneously being encased in time-stopping quintessence means that, yes, the summons is defeated, but it's defeated by stopping the passage of time. It can't wink out because there's no time to do so.

Defeating it by trapping it just means you've wasted your time and effort (and money).

Bohandas

2020-03-23, 08:09 PM

You don't think that trapping your enemy in a, for them, inescapable prison isn't defeating them? Because I'm pretty sure that counts as defeating them.

Instantaneously being encased in time-stopping quintessence means that, yes, the summons is defeated, but it's defeated by stopping the passage of time. It can't wink out because there's no time to do so.

Defeating it by trapping it just means you've wasted your time and effort (and money).

No, the room would have a door, it just wouldn't have a door to the room where the original is. And optimal'y the transparency would be one way so that the encounter can't start at all. Then you let the dog live out its life somewhere nice and free of conflict and after it gets old and dies preserve the body and put it in a secure location because the description doesn't mention death, just defeat or destruction

Instantaneously being encased in time-stopping quintessence means that, yes, the summons is defeated, but it's defeated by stopping the passage of time. It can't wink out because there's no time to do so.

Perhaps, but time would resume for the items once you removed them from the quintessence and they would wink out.

MaxiDuRaritry

2020-03-23, 11:56 PM

No, the room would have a door, it just wouldn't have a door to the room where the original is. And optimal'y the transparency would be one way so that the encounter can't start at all. Then you let the dog live out its life somewhere nice and free of conflict and after it gets old and dies preserve the body and put it in a secure location because the description doesn't mention death, just defeat or destructionI'm pretty sure that dying will end it regardless. Still best to just keep it on ice.

Perhaps, but time would resume for the items once you removed them from the quintessence and they would wink out.Which is why you slide the mirror right into the quintessence after you've used up the charges for the day but before you remove the items from the quintessence, so the mirror is in stasis, too, which quite possibly will keep the effect going. Feel free to have a second mirror so you can clone it for the next round.

OrbanSirgen

2020-03-24, 06:38 PM

constructs and undead and other creatures that don't breathe are imho immune to the entire effect, since "sneezing and coughing" requires breathing in the first place. They aren't legal targets.

Which is why I suggested having the construct, undead, or whatever that is immune to its effects be the one to use it... That way you can be out of its area of effect and whatever uses it would also not be affected...

skunk3

2020-03-25, 01:31 AM

Dust of sneezing and choking references dust of appearance. They're supposed to be indistinguishable from one another without the usual tricks for identifying cursed items.

That being the case:

The text for both cleary indicates an AoE centered on the user.

I just read the entry for the dust of appearance and I see no reason why either of these items couldn't be used from above or turned into a grenade-like weapon. If I was flying above a suspected invisible enemy, I wouldn't be able to sprinkle it down into the squares below and get the same effect? Why not? There's lots of items in the game that can be used in a multitude of ways. If I put the dust of choking and sneezing into a small potion bottle, why couldn't I hurl it at a wall, the ceiling, a pillar, etc? Why couldn't I use the dust in conjunction with some sort of wind spell or effect to blow it exactly where I want it to go? Is that not allowed either?

RAW doesn't provide every use for every single item. D&D is a game of creativity and to say that an item cannot be used in a certain way just because it doesn't have it in the description is silly because we do it all of the time. Think about how many things we use ropes for, or mirrors, or grease, or glue. Even quarterstaffs and daggers can be used in tons of ways. This is kinda like saying that a healing potion only works if drank straight from the potion bottle and it cannot be transferred to another container, like a chalice.

sorcererlover

2020-03-25, 02:32 AM

I just read the entry for the dust of appearance and I see no reason why either of these items couldn't be used from above or turned into a grenade-like weapon. If I was flying above a suspected invisible enemy, I wouldn't be able to sprinkle it down into the squares below and get the same effect? Why not? There's lots of items in the game that can be used in a multitude of ways. If I put the dust of choking and sneezing into a small potion bottle, why couldn't I hurl it at a wall, the ceiling, a pillar, etc? Why couldn't I use the dust in conjunction with some sort of wind spell or effect to blow it exactly where I want it to go? Is that not allowed either?

RAW doesn't provide every use for every single item. D&D is a game of creativity and to say that an item cannot be used in a certain way just because it doesn't have it in the description is silly because we do it all of the time. Think about how many things we use ropes for, or mirrors, or grease, or glue. Even quarterstaffs and daggers can be used in tons of ways. This is kinda like saying that a healing potion only works if drank straight from the potion bottle and it cannot be transferred to another container, like a chalice.

Except you're not being creative. You're trying to cheese. You're already using an item in a way that not only betrays author intent but also completely trivializes a good deal of encounters. Now you're saying you should be allowed to defy written rules and write your own rules to make it easier for you to cheese.

Suicide bombing with a cursed item meant to completely screw over PCs to completely screw monsters instead is hilarious and in genius. Flagrantly defying and making up your own rules just so you can cheese all your encounters is not funny, not fun, and not in genius.

What if I followed your example and said that teleport, despite targeting creatures, can target objects as well because I say so with some stupid logic regarding construct's dual nature as both object and creature, and then I teleport a portable hole underneath my opponent and then a bag of holding and create a rift in spacetime?

Dust of appearance, being a magic item, has only one method of activation and it is activated by flinging it into the air. Pouring or otherwise doing anything other than flinging it in the air does not activate the item.

Gruftzwerg

2020-03-25, 04:31 AM

I just read the entry for the dust of appearance and I see no reason why either of these items couldn't be used from above or turned into a grenade-like weapon. If I was flying above a suspected invisible enemy, I wouldn't be able to sprinkle it down into the squares below and get the same effect? Why not? There's lots of items in the game that can be used in a multitude of ways. If I put the dust of choking and sneezing into a small potion bottle, why couldn't I hurl it at a wall, the ceiling, a pillar, etc? Why couldn't I use the dust in conjunction with some sort of wind spell or effect to blow it exactly where I want it to go? Is that not allowed either?

RAW doesn't provide every use for every single item. D&D is a game of creativity and to say that an item cannot be used in a certain way just because it doesn't have it in the description is silly because we do it all of the time. Think about how many things we use ropes for, or mirrors, or grease, or glue. Even quarterstaffs and daggers can be used in tons of ways. This is kinda like saying that a healing potion only works if drank straight from the potion bottle and it cannot be transferred to another container, like a chalice.

1. D&D is permission based. Rules give you the permission to do things. If the rule doesn't explicitly say how to do it, you are free to be creative, otherwise not. In this chase we have a single activation method (centered on you) and effect shape (20ft spread), which are defined thing in 3.5. Thus the rule leaves no room to be creative in "this chase". The wording is clear here, sorry.

2. Think about it like you would try to make smoke screen with throwing sand around you:
- throwing the sand at the feet on an enemy (into a square) won't help to emulate a smoke screen
- putting the sand into bottle before throwing it won't help either here to get a smoke screen.
- throwing the sand into your enemies face may have some momentary effect on the target if he fails his reflex roll, but woudn't cause the sand to spread to an smoke screen either.
When you want to make a smoke screen from sand you have to do something like this here:
(the ability starts at 0:27. Somehow the timestamp link doesn't work as supposed..)

https://youtu.be/djiUBPGlHIA?t=27
This is how the effect of the item is supposed to be activated and than spread 20ft around you. Anything else wouldn't work or cause the desired effect (shape). And the items text doesn't allow for alteration. It gives permission to use it in a single way with no option left to alter it.

Unless you find some item/spell that would work with such kind of substances/items as target. Dunno if there is a grenade type of item to spreads powders/substances around? Maybe, but unless you either find or homebrew one it won't happen.
If you know of such a item, pls let me know, cause I would be honestly interested in that. (no joke, so pls let me know if anybody knows such an item).

Quertus

2020-03-25, 02:52 PM

I'm with you on this. The wording says "normally." Weapon attacks do not normally offer half damage on a successful save like this. It would only become "normal" after the PC has purchased/crafted/has access to a Ring of Evasion.

Also, and I've seen some arguments about this, but is my RAI opinion the Starmantle Cloak ONLY halves the physical damage -- not the total damage including stuff like holy/frost/flaming/etc.

The Starmantle Cloak is cheesy enough as it is. To allow it to work in conjunction with a Ring of Evasion to make a character immune to melee attacks is ludicrous.

What is cheesy and completely RAW legal is pairing the Starmantle Cloak with the Retributive Amulet. Get hit with a magical weapon in combat, make a measly DC15 reflex save, take half damage... but wait, there's more! The damage that you should take is then divided into two and half goes to you and half goes back to the attacker. So basically, you're taking 1/4th the damage and reflecting 1/4 of it back. As a cherry on top, the amulet also gives you a +2 sacred bonus to AC, which can be sometimes hard to get.

Raw is often ludicrous. Welcome to RAW. I tend to agree about the elemental damage, and disagree about the usefulness (for *most* PCs) of only dealing as much damage as they take over just not taking the damage in the first place.

I'm curious if anyone has solid ground on the use of the word "normally" in 3e - is there a precedent for it referring to "without this feat / spell / ability / whatever"? Otherwise, that does make it difficult to read the Playground-standard way

Anyway, the dust is clearly a powerful item and as a DM I would take a dim view of anyone using it more than once in a blue moon, especially if they are a good-aligned character. Using this dust is basically the same as using a poison and it should influence once's alignment.

Others have already started in on the "I can't even" of the rest of this post, so I'll stab at this piece.

It's powerful, therefore it's evil? No, I can't even.

It's poison, therefore it's evil? Um… in what way is dust poison?

In what way is debilitating your foe evil? Keep in mind, your answers need to be consistent with your stance on Web, Grappling, Stunning Fist, etc etc etc.

and people wonder why I prefer to start the game as evil… I don't usually have to deal with any of this alignment change nonsense as an evil character.

Troacctid

2020-03-25, 03:02 PM

Bohandas

2020-03-25, 03:05 PM

Regarding the dust, what if you combined it with a contingent gust of wind

You don't think that trapping your enemy in a, for them, inescapable prison isn't defeating them? Because I'm pretty sure that counts as defeating them.

Instantaneously being encased in time-stopping quintessence means that, yes, the summons is defeated, but it's defeated by stopping the passage of time. It can't wink out because there's no time to do so.

Defeating it by trapping it just means you've wasted your time and effort (and money).

If it doesn;t have any time in which to disappear, then surely it doesn't have time in which to appear either. Bearing in mind that it's not being inserted into the quintessence but rather conjured into it

MaxiDuRaritry

2020-03-25, 03:11 PM

You can try this at home. Fill a bottle with sand. Throw it at a hard surface. Does it create a cloud in a 20-foot radius? Please report back ASAP, we are all on tenterhooks for your results.A glass bottle, when shattered with force, does tend to spray its contents everywhere. Powder often acts similarly to a liquid in fluid dynamics, especially when sudden force is involved.

Dry sand in a glass bottle, when thrown at a wall? It splashes very much like water does, and water sprays everywhere. Sand, however, is too heavy and dense. Even if you threw it like you're supposed to with DoSaC, it wouldn't make a 20' cloud either. Something lighter, like powdery wood ash, which is more what I imagine dust of sneezing and choking to be like? It'd go everywhere.

[edit]
If it doesn;t have any time in which to disappear, then surely it doesn't have time in which to appear either. Bearing in mind that it's not being inserted into the quintessence but rather conjured into itYou can push stuff into the quintessence, so it's clearly able to be affected by outside forces. The clone would appear and be instantaneously time-locked, because time instantaneously stops at that point.

Gruftzwerg

2020-03-25, 03:36 PM

A glass bottle, when shattered with force, does tend to spray its contents everywhere. Powder often acts similarly to a liquid in fluid dynamics, especially when sudden force is involved.

Dry sand in a glass bottle, when thrown at a wall? It splashes very much like water does, and water sprays everywhere. Sand, however, is too heavy and dense. Even if you threw it like you're supposed to with DoSaC, it wouldn't make a 20' cloud either. Something lighter, like powdery wood ash, which is more what I imagine dust of sneezing and choking to be like? It'd go everywhere.

I get what you mean, but you are assuming that it is powder and we don't even know if it is in powder condition. From what the rules gives you as activation method, you have to assume that it is heavier and denser like sand. Since the rules indicate this way of interpretation, it would be illogical to assume the other way (that it behaves like very light powder).

MaxiDuRaritry

2020-03-25, 03:42 PM

I get what you mean, but you are assuming that it is powder and we don't even know if it is in powder condition. From what the rules gives you as activation method, you have to assume that it is heavier and denser like sand. Since the rules indicate this way of interpretation, it would be illogical to assume the other way (that it behaves like very light powder).Even dry sand, as heavy and dense as it is, acts like a liquid when it's moved energetically. It flows in largely the same way, meaning a glass bottle thrown at a wall will splash sand everywhere like water does.

Wet sand...not so much.

Gruftzwerg

2020-03-25, 04:07 PM

Even dry sand, as heavy and dense as it is, acts like a liquid when it's moved energetically. It flows in largely the same way, meaning a glass bottle thrown at a wall will splash sand everywhere like water does.

Wet sand...not so much.

And for how many rounds would it "hang" in the air before dropping`? barely a single round (6 seconds)?
You need to cause turbulences so it will stay longer in the air before dropping to ground. And this is the reason why you are wildly whirling it around you in a 20ft spread. Nothing in the text implies that it is soft/light enough to work when thrown against a solid object to cause the desired spread.

If it would be a regular magic item we are talking about, I could see why one assumes that it might work in other ways too, but we are talking about a cured item. And the drawback is that you can't throw it and have to stay inside the spread. There are still enough ways to abuse the item, as some have been pointed out. There is no need to make an already powerful cured item, less restricting than the rules demanding it.

Bohandas

2020-03-26, 03:54 AM

If part of the curse is that it always targets the user that opens it up to countermeasures against being targeted with magical items

skunk3

2020-03-26, 11:03 PM

1. D&D is permission based. Rules give you the permission to do things. If the rule doesn't explicitly say how to do it, you are free to be creative, otherwise not. In this chase we have a single activation method (centered on you) and effect shape (20ft spread), which are defined thing in 3.5. Thus the rule leaves no room to be creative in "this chase". The wording is clear here, sorry.

2. Think about it like you would try to make smoke screen with throwing sand around you:
- throwing the sand at the feet on an enemy (into a square) won't help to emulate a smoke screen
- putting the sand into bottle before throwing it won't help either here to get a smoke screen.
- throwing the sand into your enemies face may have some momentary effect on the target if he fails his reflex roll, but woudn't cause the sand to spread to an smoke screen either.
When you want to make a smoke screen from sand you have to do something like this here:
(the ability starts at 0:27. Somehow the timestamp link doesn't work as supposed..)

https://youtu.be/djiUBPGlHIA?t=27
This is how the effect of the item is supposed to be activated and than spread 20ft around you. Anything else wouldn't work or cause the desired effect (shape). And the items text doesn't allow for alteration. It gives permission to use it in a single way with no option left to alter it.

Unless you find some item/spell that would work with such kind of substances/items as target. Dunno if there is a grenade type of item to spreads powders/substances around? Maybe, but unless you either find or homebrew one it won't happen.
If you know of such a item, pls let me know, cause I would be honestly interested in that. (no joke, so pls let me know if anybody knows such an item).

Personally, I think the item is super cheesy and I'd be against seeing it more than once or twice in an entire campaign. I'm just trying to make a point. The description of the item says "if cast into the air..." Why does that mean that it needs to be flung straight up, potentially affecting the person using it? If I am above the target(s) and I open a vial of this powder and fling it downwards, is that not the same as casting it into the air? The ONLY way to use this without affecting one's self is to either use it from above or to put it in some sort of a container and use it as a grenade-like weapon.

Also, on your other points you talk about sand. This dust is described as a "fine dust" which is going to be significantly less dense and heavy than sand. Have you ever accidentally shot some baby powder or talcum powder into the air? It lingers for a while like a cloud. It's not at all like sand, which falls straight to the ground. Have you ever driven a hot country road and seen the plume of clay dust that stays in the air for hundreds of feet behind your vehicle? If that were sand it would fall to the ground in a second or two at most.

Obviously, turning it into an improvised ranged grenade-like weapon of sorts could limit its area of effect, like say a 10' or even 5' radius rather than 20', but it should still work, especially if the dust is trailing down from above. I am pretty sure that if I took a handful of some fine powder IRL and threw it up in the air right above me the area of its spread wouldn't be THAT much different than if I put it in a weak container of some sort and threw it at a 20-30' ceiling. Heck, it might spread even further.

Cursed items are considered to be "cursed" (generally speaking) because unless a PC has the ability to determine whether it is cursed or not, they might assume that it is another non-cursed item that appears to be identical and has a different purpose. (DM's often specifically tell people that it is the other item, hence cursed.) If the PC has correctly identified the item for what it is and/or created the item specifically for its effect, they can avoid the pitfalls. The difference between a cursed item and a non-cursed item is the PC's ability to recognize it for *what it is.*

All of this notwithstanding, a PC could still use the item within its area of effect if they just take some basic counter-measure like wrapping their face with fabric, no? EDIT: I've since read the description for inhaled poisons and barring some sort of full face mask it would still affect them.

skunk3

2020-03-26, 11:04 PM

MaxiDuRaritry

2020-03-26, 11:10 PM

Dust of negation (LoM 214) acts as an AMF wherever you throw it. Find a way to mix it alchemically with dust of sneezing and choking without negating the latter, and stuff like the necklace of adaptation (one of the very few ways to protect against the DoSaC) suddenly no longer works. Bye bye, ECL +10 encounter.

skunk3

2020-03-26, 11:19 PM

It's powerful, therefore it's evil? No, I can't even.

It's poison, therefore it's evil? Um… in what way is dust poison?

The item is crafted with the Poison spell. It's used by Assassins, Blackguards, and others. Poison use is generally considered to be evil in 3.5 AFAIK but there are a few exceptions.

Also, since this is an inhaled poison effect (basically), I will copy + paste what the SRD says about inhaled poisons: Inhaled poisons are usually contained in fragile vials or eggshells. They can be thrown as a ranged attack with a range increment of 10 feet. When it strikes a hard surface (or is struck hard), the container releases its poison. One dose spreads to fill the volume of a 10-foot cube. Each creature within the area must make a saving throw. (Holding one’s breath is ineffective against inhaled poisons; they affect the nasal membranes, tear ducts, and other parts of the body.)

Make of that what you will. I rule that the Dust of Sneezing and Choking can be used as a grenade-like weapon. Obviously I am not advocating that anyone abuse this item. Anyway, even possessing such an item is illegal in many places (if correctly identified) and anyone crafting it would know exactly wtf it is lol. This item is clearly not intended for use by good-aligned characters, except by accident.

Gruftzwerg

2020-03-27, 12:01 AM

The item is crafted with the Poison spell. It's used by Assassins, Blackguards, and others. Poison use is generally considered to be evil in 3.5 AFAIK but there are a few exceptions.

Also, since this is an inhaled poison effect (basically), I will copy + paste what the SRD says about inhaled poisons: Inhaled poisons are usually contained in fragile vials or eggshells. They can be thrown as a ranged attack with a range increment of 10 feet. When it strikes a hard surface (or is struck hard), the container releases its poison. One dose spreads to fill the volume of a 10-foot cube. Each creature within the area must make a saving throw. (Holding one’s breath is ineffective against inhaled poisons; they affect the nasal membranes, tear ducts, and other parts of the body.)

Make of that what you will. I rule that the Dust of Sneezing and Choking can be used as a grenade-like weapon. Obviously I am not advocating that anyone abuse this item. Anyway, even possessing such an item is illegal in many places (if correctly identified) and anyone crafting it would know exactly wtf it is lol. This item is clearly not intended for use by good-aligned characters, except by accident.

A pretty strong argument, I have to admit. And maybe it even was the RAI. But by RAW it's not declared as Poison and thus doesn't fall under the poison rules. Further keep in mind that antidotes and sometimes medication is also based on poisons, so the use of poison for crafting doesn't has to always be evil and can have results with good intentions.

skunk3

2020-03-27, 02:03 PM

A pretty strong argument, I have to admit. And maybe it even was the RAI. But by RAW it's not declared as Poison and thus doesn't fall under the poison rules. Further keep in mind that antidotes and sometimes medication is also based on poisons, so the use of poison for crafting doesn't has to always be evil and can have results with good intentions.

Yeah, which is why I said there are a few exceptions.

While the description of the dust doesn't specifically state that it is a poison, it's clearly a poison lol. I'm the type of person who believes that RAI trumps RAW as long as the RAI is logically consistent and generally makes sense. These game rules aren't holy scripture. They are just a general framework by which we can play a game, and as everyone knows there are numerous problems with 3.5, especially if we are going by RAW. This is why games I play in tend to have a lot of house rules and amendments, from feats to how certain spells work to streamlining certain skills. For example, we combine hide and move silently by turning it into 'stealth.' We also combine listen and spot into 'perception.' Weak, crappy feats sometimes are combined with another (dodge + mobility or toughness + improved toughness) or count as half a feat.

We also tend to completely axe anything that is too powerful / broken. Nobody is going to run around our games using Shivering Touch on everything.

As I said before, people can play however they wish and if that means exposing yourself to the dust of sneezing and choking, that's fine. Personally, I think that's kinda dumb but different strokes for different folks.

MaxiDuRaritry

2020-03-27, 02:10 PM

Yeah, which is why I said there are a few exceptions.

While the description of the dust doesn't specifically state that it is a poison, it's clearly a poison lol.It's not. If it were, it would be affected by heal and neutralize poison. It is not.

Quertus

2020-03-27, 06:23 PM

Yeah, which is why I said there are a few exceptions.

While the description of the dust doesn't specifically state that it is a poison, it's clearly a poison lol. I'm the type of person who believes that RAI trumps RAW as long as the RAI is logically consistent and generally makes sense. These game rules aren't holy scripture. They are just a general framework by which we can play a game, and as everyone knows there are numerous problems with 3.5, especially if we are going by RAW. This is why games I play in tend to have a lot of house rules and amendments, from feats to how certain spells work to streamlining certain skills. For example, we combine hide and move silently by turning it into 'stealth.' We also combine listen and spot into 'perception.' Weak, crappy feats sometimes are combined with another (dodge + mobility or toughness + improved toughness) or count as half a feat.

We also tend to completely axe anything that is too powerful / broken. Nobody is going to run around our games using Shivering Touch on everything.

As I said before, people can play however they wish and if that means exposing yourself to the dust of sneezing and choking, that's fine. Personally, I think that's kinda dumb but different strokes for different folks.

While, of course, it is the GM's prerogative to do world-building, discussions are generally RAW unless otherwise noted.

So, by RAW, it uses the Poison spell, but is not explicitly classified as a poison? By RAW, is the Poison spell [evil]? Is there any RAW basis for your stance beyond "it just feels evil"?

Bohandas

2020-03-28, 12:37 PM

Noxangelo

2020-03-31, 01:04 AM

Unless you find some item/spell that would work with such kind of substances/items as target. Dunno if there is a grenade type of item to spreads powders/substances around? Maybe, but unless you either find or homebrew one it won't happen.
If you know of such a item, pls let me know, cause I would be honestly interested in that. (no joke, so pls let me know if anybody knows such an item).

You are after Eggshell Grenades for OA p78. first item under Special and Superior items

(edit)

dust eggshell grenades are completely broken.

and to the people arguing about how you can only use the dust of choking and sneezing as written and that you can't just throw it in a monsters face or put it in a flask and throw it that way. having played with simulated blinding powder IRL, i can't put into words how ridiculous your arguments sound. want to know what the thrown flask method would look like, read the eggshell grenades description.

Gruftzwerg

2020-03-31, 02:42 AM

You are after Eggshell Grenades for OA p78. first item under Special and Superior items

(edit)

dust eggshell grenades are completely broken.

and to the people arguing about how you can only use the dust of choking and sneezing as written and that you can't just throw it in a monsters face or put it in a flask and throw it that way. having played with simulated blinding powder IRL, i can't put into words how ridiculous your arguments sound. want to know what the thrown flask method would look like, read the eggshell grenades description.

Eggshell grenades have a to low DC to be of effective use. DC 10 is even on lvl 1 low.

Further you may not assume that Dust of Sneezing and Chocking works/behaves the same. You may not extrapolate rules from one item to use on another. The Dust doesn't mention any method to be thrown onto enemies nor to be thorwn onto the ground. So you miss the permission to do it. You want it to be as light as the powder in an eggshell gerenade, but you have only your believe and no ruletext to supply your argument.
If you want to houserule it that way, fine. But don't assume that this is RAW nor RAI. Cause where would the curse be if you could just throw it as easily as you try to make it. It would be just an insane powerful item, but not a CURSED item with drawbacks. It is not intended to overcome the drawback from a cursed item by such simple mundane ways as by the rules as written.