Two Weapon Fighting & Crossbows

[ByOdin'sBeard]

I've been wracking my brain with the thought of trying to make a semi-useful character that can dual-wield crossbows - I'm a player for the first time in a long time here, and the group is fairly easy going, so no optimization by any means.

I've taken a look at the possibility of Rapid Reload, and the "Self Loading" property from AEG (pg.116) working together; it states that it does not restrict the wielder's ability to make multiple attacks in a round, but doesn't touch on dual wielding. I figured since the thing that keeps dual wielding crossbows from working is the need to pull back the string, that Self Loading would cover that, but now you still need to put the bolt into the... chamber?... is that what it's called?

Rapid Reload makes this a free action anyway, so that is fine, but I still need a free hand to put the bolt in place would I not? If that seems to be the case, would Self Loading placed on a Repeating Light Crossbow work?

Thanks in advance!

[Gruftzwerg]

have a look at the Double Hand Crossbow from the Kobold Web Enhancement (archive link (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a), since the original source is down atm)


edit:
Use shoulder straps in combination with Quick Draw & Rapid Reload for the reloading process:
- drop hand crossbow A (free action)
- reload B (free action)
- drop B (free action)
- draw A (free action)
- reload A (free action)
- draw B (free action)
With shoulder straps (attached to the crossbows) you can drop your crossbows and still pick em up later with Quick Draw, since you don't drop em on the ground and they remain equipped (but are not wielded for the moment to free one hand for reloading).

2nd edit:
Add Crossbow sniper feat for extra cheese.

When using a crossbow for which you have the Weapon Focus feat, you gain a bonus on damage rolls equal to 1/2 your Dexterity bonus. If you have the skirmish or sneak attack ability, the maximum range at which you can make such attacks increases to 60 feet when you are using a crossbow for which you have the Weapon Focus feat.




3rd edit:
The Deepwood Sniper would be an excellent prc, increasing range, critical thread range and multipliers.

4th edit: (sorry the ideas are coming step by step^^)
Dip at least a single level into Assassin for Death Attack, since handcrossbows can be easily hidden and Quick Draw is already part of the build.


__________________


This should help to fire non stop with 2 double crossbows (+ twf feat line).

what is the character design? the roguesta from the bronx?
Making ride/fly by attacks with sneak attack bonus for drawing hidden weapons for the real roguesta feeling?^^

[xkaliburr]

You may want to look at a multi limbed race. I once for silliness designed a thri-kreen machine gunner. He dual wielded light crossbows, and had the rapid reload feat. Just a barrage of bolts everywhere. I think you could potentially make a three crossbow wielding creature using the right feats and templates.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Use a dragonblood race that has a tail, take the feats Dragon Tail (RotD) and Prehensile Tail (SK, SS), and you can use your tail to reload each of your crossbows without dropping either one.

[ShurikVch]

If you're OK to play as Baatezu devil (thus, minimum, Imp), you may try to get Hellfire Crossbow - it have no string, thus - don't need to be drawn; shoots hellfire; unfortunately, this item don't have "official" price

[PoeticallyPsyco]

You may want to look at a multi limbed race. I once for silliness designed a thri-kreen machine gunner. He dual wielded light crossbows, and had the rapid reload feat. Just a barrage of bolts everywhere. I think you could potentially make a three crossbow wielding creature using the right feats and templates.


Use a dragonblood race that has a tail, take the feats Dragon Tail (RotD) and Prehensile Tail (SK, SS), and you can use your tail to reload each of your crossbows without dropping either one.

The Diopsid race (Dragon Compendium) would also work for this. +1 LA, and two extra small arms that can't wield weapons or shields on their own, but can be used to reload the crossbows in the main arms. These crossbows can also be a size larger than normal (you need the extra hands free to wield them, but not to reload). Or you could wield a heavy crossbow with main hand + one extra arm and a hand crossbow with the offhand, leaving the second extra arm for reloading.

[YellowJohn]

I am in the middle of gearing up a L35 Crossbow Weilder as we speak :smallcool:

He is a Strongheart Halfling Rogue 4 (come for the Hand Crossbow Proficiency, stay for the Sneak Attack, Evasion & Uncanny Dodge) Fighter X (because you need the feats). I also took 3 levels in Halfling Paragon (UA) for the Dex and one in Exotic Weapon Master (using an Exotic Ranged Weapon in melee doesn't provoke AOO).

Self Loading was updated to Quick Loading in the MIC; it not only makes reloading a free action, it gives each crossbow an extra-dimensional 100 round 'clip'.
Once you have that, I recommend adding Splitting (+3, Champions of Ruin), Force (+2, MIC), and then I struggled to pick between Collision (+2, MIC) and Exit Wounds (+2, CWar). Collision gives slightly better damage vs. a single foe, but Exit Wounds turns your bolts into line attacks which is silly and fun. That's only nine pluses accounted for, so I filled up with Psychokinetic (+1 MIC). He is effectively wielding Laser Pistols :smallbiggrin:

I went with hand crossbows rather than light because of the 'Hand Crossbow Focus' feat in Drow of the Underdark. It wraps 'Weapon Focus' and 'Rapid Reload' into one neat package, and explicitly counts as Weapon Focus for prerequisites.
That means you can take the aforementioned Crossbow Sniper (PHB2), and Dead Eye (Dragon Compendium) for + Dex to damage within 30' (Immunity to Critical Hits applies).
Weapon Specialisation can be nice for a build like this that relies on lots of attacks. It also opens the way to Ranged Weapon Mastery for more bonus damage & a more important 20' increase to your range increments.

More arms is a great way to go. I used Obah Blessed (Dungeon Magazine #136 p.60), but that is probably too obscure for most tables :smallamused:
Thri-Kreen would work, but the build gets feat starved.

I hope that was helpful :smallsmile:

[ByOdin'sBeard]

I am in the middle of gearing up a L35 Crossbow Weilder as we speak :smallcool:

He is a Strongheart Halfling Rogue 4 (come for the Hand Crossbow Proficiency, stay for the Sneak Attack, Evasion & Uncanny Dodge) Fighter X (because you need the feats). I also took 3 levels in Halfling Paragon (UA) for the Dex and one in Exotic Weapon Master (using an Exotic Ranged Weapon in melee doesn't provoke AOO).

Self Loading was updated to Quick Loading in the MIC; it not only makes reloading a free action, it gives each crossbow an extra-dimensional 100 round 'clip'.
Once you have that, I recommend adding Splitting (+3, Champions of Ruin), Force (+2, MIC), and then I struggled to pick between Collision (+2, MIC) and Exit Wounds (+2, CWar). Collision gives slightly better damage vs. a single foe, but Exit Wounds turns your bolts into line attacks which is silly and fun. That's only nine pluses accounted for, so I filled up with Psychokinetic (+1 MIC). He is effectively wielding Laser Pistols :smallbiggrin:

I went with hand crossbows rather than light because of the 'Hand Crossbow Focus' feat in Drow of the Underdark. It wraps 'Weapon Focus' and 'Rapid Reload' into one neat package, and explicitly counts as Weapon Focus for prerequisites.
That means you can take the aforementioned Crossbow Sniper (PHB2), and Dead Eye (Dragon Compendium) for + Dex to damage within 30' (Immunity to Critical Hits applies).
Weapon Specialisation can be nice for a build like this that relies on lots of attacks. It also opens the way to Ranged Weapon Mastery for more bonus damage & a more important 20' increase to your range increments.

More arms is a great way to go. I used Obah Blessed (Dungeon Magazine #136 p.60), but that is probably too obscure for most tables :smallamused:
Thri-Kreen would work, but the build gets feat starved.

I hope that was helpful :smallsmile:

So, how did your character get past the need for a hand to put the bolt in place? I had looked at Quick Loading, but didn't think that that solved the issue any more than Self Loading would have.

[ByOdin'sBeard]

Thanks everyone for the suggestions, I had contemplated the use of a race capable of getting Prehensile Tail, however I wanted to keep the character more Human than not; I'm more looking for ways to do this with the use of feats i suppose - my fault for not specifying, lol. I may just have to keep enough crossbows on my person to keep spamming Quick Draw.

[schreier]

I keep wanting to apply Hank's Bow enchantment to a hand-crossbow, but I'm not sure if it would work....

http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20061227a

[Darg]

Once you got enough wealth you could have your crossbows enchanted with quick loading:


This property may only be placed on a crossbow. A quick-loading crossbow accesses an extradimensional space that can hold up to 100 bolts, allowing the wielder to reload the crossbow more rapidly than normal. Reloading a quick-loading hand or light crossbow is a free action (allowing a character with multiple attacks to use his full attack rate), while reloading a quick-loading heavy crossbow is a move-equivalent action. Adding or removing a bolt by hand from the extradimensional space requires a move-equivalent action. Different types of bolts can be held in the extradimensional space, and the wielder may select freely from these when reloading the crossbow.
Caster Level: 9th
Requirements: Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Leomund's secret chest, shrink item
Price: +2 bonus
Magic of Faerûn
Arms and Equipment Guide

Saves you 10 lb of bolts per crossbow you carry and saves you some feats.

If the idea is more of a gun-fu type character, a 2 level dip into Order of the Bow Initiate gets you:


Close Combat Shot (Ex): At 2nd level, an initiate can attack with a ranged weapon while in a threatened square and not provoke an attack of opportunity.

Swift Ambusher + Adaptable Flanker would be a nice addition to this kind of play along with Crossbow Sniper for those pot shots.

[Gruftzwerg]

Thanks everyone for the suggestions, I had contemplated the use of a race capable of getting Prehensile Tail, however I wanted to keep the character more Human than not; I'm more looking for ways to do this with the use of feats i suppose - my fault for not specifying, lol. I may just have to keep enough crossbows on my person to keep spamming Quick Draw.

as pointed out earlier, if you want to go with feats, you just need 2 crossbows with shoulder-straps attached and the feats Quick Draw and Rapid Reload. Than you can use the above mentioned reload procedure at any time in your turn as many times you need (when you have more attacks at higher lvl due to BAB and twf feat line). Everything becomes a free action with the combination of feats and shoulder straps.

[Darg]

So, how did your character get past the need for a hand to put the bolt in place? I had looked at Quick Loading, but didn't think that that solved the issue any more than Self Loading would have.

The enchant does the loading for you so there is no need to use a hand until your 100 capacity extradimensional pocket runs dry.

[YellowJohn]

The enchant does the loading for you so there is no need to use a hand until your 100 capacity extradimensional pocket runs dry.

This was my interpretation also, though re-reading the item description it doesn't actually specify that it automates the loading process. Check with your DM I guess, and if they don't self-load just make do with an efficient quiver and either go with the shoulder-strap trick or do basically the same thing with Gloves of the Master Strategist (Ghostwalk).

[Crichton]

Self Loading was updated to Quick Loading in the MIC

I don't think that's the case. Both 'Self Loading' and 'Quick Loading' appear in the A&EG, but only 'Quick Loading' appears in MIC, and the entry in MIC isn't significantly altered from the 'Quick Loading' entry in A&EG

In fact, Self Loading is worse, really, because it explicitly says it only uses the magic to pull back the crossbow string, and that the wielder still has to place the bolt in the weapon, while Quick Loading leaves that almost ambiguous (see below). Self Loading is also a specific Heavy Crossbow, not a general weapon enhancement for any crossbow.


So, how did your character get past the need for a hand to put the bolt in place? I had looked at Quick Loading, but didn't think that that solved the issue any more than Self Loading would have.


The enchant does the loading for you so there is no need to use a hand until your 100 capacity extradimensional pocket runs dry.

I don't think it does that at all. Quick Loading's text says the extradimensional 'clip' allows 'you to reload the crossbow more rapidly than normal' and says that it's a free action to do so. But it's explicitly still you doing the reloading, not the magic of the enhancement turning it into the crossbow equivalent of a semi-automatic pistol.

I want there to be a good way to dual wield and hands-free reload hand crossbows, but I've yet to find it, short of shenanigans like Animating one, which is still gonna require some squinting and DM cooperation.

[Darg]

It's right there in the text:


Adding or removing a bolt by hand from the extradimensional space requires a move-equivalent action.

You don't have to touch the bolt. Logically, if you are designing an extra dimensional pocket that automatically cycles in new ammo you wouldn't put the exit anywhere but where the ammo should go in the first place. Not to mention the trigger for doing so would be super simple.

The simplest explanation is usually the best. You could have a button that activates the enchantment. The move action required by a heavy crossbow is easily represented by the time required to draw and **** the crossbow by the multifaceted enchantment because of the higher draw strength.

Mechanically, what would the enchantment do to reduce the reload speed? Reduce the amount of force required to draw the string? If that, why couldn't I just calibrate the magic so that I could use pretty much anything to do so: mouth, elbow, heel, part of the other crossbow? As stated before, having the quarrel release be anywhere but on the track seems silly.

Because of the ambiguity on the mechanics of the enchantment, it is easier to just use the less complex option that doesn't conflict or unbalance the game. As mentioned earlier in the thread it's easy enough to accomplish the goal without spending money on a +2 enchantment.

[Crichton]

It's right there in the text:



You don't have to touch the bolt. Logically, if you are designing an extra dimensional pocket that automatically cycles in new ammo you wouldn't put the exit anywhere but where the ammo should go in the first place. Not to mention the trigger for doing so would be super simple.

The simplest explanation is usually the best. You could have a button that activates the enchantment. The move action required by a heavy crossbow is easily represented by the time required to draw and **** the crossbow by the multifaceted enchantment because of the higher draw strength.

Mechanically, what would the enchantment do to reduce the reload speed? Reduce the amount of force required to draw the string? If that, why couldn't I just calibrate the magic so that I could use pretty much anything to do so: mouth, elbow, heel, part of the other crossbow? As stated before, having the quarrel release be anywhere but on the track seems silly.

Because of the ambiguity on the mechanics of the enchantment, it is easier to just use the less complex option that doesn't conflict or unbalance the game. As mentioned earlier in the thread it's easy enough to accomplish the goal without spending money on a +2 enchantment.



So, I'm not sure why you're quoting the snippet of the entry that refers to adding or removing extra ammo from the 100 round 'clip' but that part of it explicitly does require your hands, even in the text you quoted. I'm guessing you quoted it from the old A&EG source, or an online source that did, but the updated, actual entry in the MIC, while it doesn't make any significant changes, does go so far as to clarify that "Adding or removing a bolt by hand from an extradimensional space requires a move (manipulation) action." A 'manipulation' action explicitly does require hands. The entry for that can be found in MIC pg 219.




But again, that part of the text only refers to adding more ammo to the 'clip.' It's not applicable to whether you need a hand to reload between shots. (Though if it was, that'd be more evidence that you do need a free hand)


Here's the thing - Normally, without Quick Loading or other alterations, reloading a crossbow between shots explicitly requires a free hand, as per the Crossbow weapon entry (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#crossbowLight): "Normally, operating a light crossbow requires two hands. However, you can shoot, but not load, a light crossbow with one hand"

So in order to be able to reload between shots without a free hand, whatever alteration you're using has to explicitly say you can do so. Quick loading doesn't say that. It says you can reload more rapidly than normal, as a free action, but it also repeatedly refers to it as you doing the reloading. It never anywhere says the magic of the enhancement is loading for you. Only that the magic lets you reload the crossbow more rapidly. And since you reloading a crossbow requires a free hand as per the crossbow rules, and there's nothing in the Quick Loading entry that says otherwise: You still need a free hand.


Unlike the Self-Loading heavy crossbow from A&EG, it doesn't even say it pulls back the string for you. (Incidentally, Self-Loading can't be put on a light or hand crossbow without houserule, since it's a specific weapon, not a weapon enhancement property)

[Darg]

Your argument is the exact reason why I mentioned:

Mechanically, what would the enchantment do to reduce the reload speed? Reduce the amount of force required to draw the string? If that, why couldn't I just calibrate the magic so that I could use pretty much anything to do so: mouth, elbow, heel, part of the other crossbow? As stated before, having the quarrel release be anywhere but on the track seems silly.
The reason I quoted a single portion of the text was to explain that the text implies that the magic loads the bolt for you; using your hand would go against negating the move/standard action to load the crossbow.

If you want to break it down, what does the enchantment do? The SRD states that loading a hand or light crossbow is a move/standard action. Technically speaking, D&D never mentions the actual strenuous action of drawing and ****ing the the crossbow which should be what takes the extra time in the first place. Loading a crossbow means you are filling it with something. That something is obviously the projectile. WotC were obviously inexperienced in the terminology surrounding crossbows or this would have probably been clarified. It obviously wasn't. The MIC text:

A quick loading crossbow accesses an extradimensional space that can hold up to 100 bolts, allowing you to reload the cross-bow more rapidly than normal.
This specifically states that the reason you can reload more quickly is the dimensional pocket. How can it do this if it doesn't load the bolt onto the crossbow? Using your hand to retrieve the bolt is a move action. Remember? If the crossbow is loaded by the enchantment no action is necessary; drawing a bolt out of a quiver is a free action already.

I provided a way in a previous post that could explain the behavior in a logical way in reality. Game logic would dictate no hands are necessary because of the inappropriate use of the word "loading." Reload on the other hand is easily understood as the repetitive actions required to load a weapon with ammunition. Manipulation doesn't require a free hand unless it states it is necessary or logically necessary at DM discretion. At least, the core books don't contradict that statement that I have seen. Therefore reloading a crossbow doesn't require a free hand. Also, reloading a light or heavy crossbow generally required placing the weapon on the ground and releasing your grip to draw the bowstring. To be a stickler for "rules" would require an extra move action to pick the weapon back up. Thank you pulleys and levers for your awesomeness.

[Efrate]

There is always Tempest_Stormwinds Gun Fu build.

https://www.enworld.org/threads/weekly-optimization-showcase-gun-fu-tempest_stormwind.471342/

[Crichton]

To preface: I think you and I are perhaps discussing cross-ways to each other. You're making your claims based on what is reasonable or logical or consistent, and from a standpoint of what actually happens in real life when one loads a crossbow. That's all well and good, but this is a rules-heavy game, with rules that are binding, and only very loosely approximate (and are only obligated to loosely approximate) any real world analog of what they are describing/allowing.

Whereas the entirety of my claim, and the text I quoted to support it, comes from those rules and what they explicitly say. To act on what they merely imply is fine, but is by very definition a houserule: totally fine to implement that way at the table, but in the greater meta-discussion of how things work overall, we need to start from the foundation of what the rules actually say, before taking any alterations or non-textually supported interpretations into account. From that point we can recommend how we would like them to work, how we'd like to alter them, or how we choose to run them at our individual tables.


Also, for the duration of this post, assume that references to action types and loading times are in reference to hand/light crossbows, since it would be even more cumbersome to also include references to heavy crossbow action/times in every reference therein.


Your argument is the exact reason why I mentioned:


Mechanically, what would the enchantment do to reduce the reload speed? Reduce the amount of force required to draw the string? If that, why couldn't I just calibrate the magic so that I could use pretty much anything to do so: mouth, elbow, heel, part of the other crossbow? As stated before, having the quarrel release be anywhere but on the track seems silly.

You don't get to alter or 'calibrate' the effects of printed weapon enhancements, or any other magical effects printed in the rules. You can use fluff to describe how that looks in the game world, sure, but you don't get to change the mechanics of it without calling that a houserule alteration.


The reason I quoted a single portion of the text was to explain that the text implies that the magic loads the bolt for you;
A) No, it doesn't in any way imply that. It says it takes a move (manipulation) to add or unload more bolts from the 'extradimensional magazine.' This has no effect at all on what the magic does when reloading the crossbow between shots.
B) Even if it DID 'imply' it, it doesn't SAY it, so you can't take that as rules text. Without explicit text to modify the default general rule on reloading crossbows, that rule isn't altered. (that general rule, as we've both quoted at this point, is that you cannot reload between shots without a free hand. Quick Loading doesn't say it changes that, therefore it doesn't change that)


using your hand would go against negating the move/standard action to load the crossbow.
No, it doesn't. Why, exactly, would it go against that? The magic of Quick Loading lets you reload as a free action, instead of the default move action. That's all it says it does, so that's all it does do. There are plenty of other things you can use your hand for as free actions during combat, so why would using your free hand to reload your crossbow as a free action go against the Quick Loading enhancement's rule that you can reload faster than normal?


If you want to break it down, what does the enchantment do?
What does it do? It allows you to "reload the crossbow more rapidly than normal" by providing "an extradimensional space that can hold up to 100 bolts"

That's what it does. Full stop.

How do you want to describe that, as fluff during the game? Well, any way you'd like, so long as you don't try to use that to change the mechanics of it. Personally I like to think it places the next bolt in ready position on or near the flight groove of the crossbow, so all you have to do is pull the string back to the latch/trigger mechanism. But given that the text doesn't say that outright, that's just my own description of how it works (remember, it never at all mentions doing anything with the crossbow string, as opposed to the unique 3.0 magic weapon 'Self-Loading Heavy Crossbow' from A&EG, which does say it draws the string back for you, but doesn't load the bolt)


The SRD states that loading a hand or light crossbow is a move/standard action.
Yes, exactly, and it also immediately following that statement says you can shoot, but not loads a crossbow with one hand. Combined, that provides the default general rule for reloading crossbows. Given that the game's rules are designed with a 'specific trumps general' rule structure, we then need a specific, explicit rule to be able to change that default general rule. We have a specific rule that changes the move action to a free action, but we do not have a rule that changes the needing a free hand part.


Technically speaking, D&D never mentions the actual strenuous action of drawing and ****ing the the crossbow which should be what takes the extra time in the first place.
True, that it never mentions it (in this magic weapon enhancement, nor in the Crossbow entry. It does mention it in the Self Loading Heavy Crossbow entry in A&EG, but that's tangential to this issue.

That said, the 'extra time' you mention (not really extra when it's the default reloading time), is for the entire action of reloading the crossbow: bolt, string, and all. Not just the string.


Loading a crossbow means you are filling it with something. That something is obviously the projectile.
'Loading' a crossbow (in terms of what it means in D&D combat between firing one shot and being ready to fire another shot) means you're pulling or winding the string back to the latch/trigger mechanism, and then adding the bolt to the flight groove. It's a whole process. But you seem to be mistakenly conflating that term with the enhancement's description of providing a rapid-access magazine of bolts to speed up the process. Nothing in that description even hints at actually placing the bolt, properly aligned, into the flight groove for you, though that's certainly a reasonable way to visualize what it's doing. Regardless, 'loading' in the context of readying a fired crossbow to fire another bold again must necessarily refer to the entire process, not just the insertion of the bolt into the flight groove.



WotC were obviously inexperienced in the terminology surrounding crossbows or this would have probably been clarified. It obviously wasn't.
That they clearly were, but that's rather immaterial. Again, they're really only loosely approximating in game action terms the actual real life process, and that's all they're really obligated to know/describe.


The MIC text:

This specifically states that the reason you can reload more quickly is the dimensional pocket. How can it do this if it doesn't load the bolt onto the crossbow?
It's quite possible that that's how it's doing it, in fluff terms. But it's not relevant to the rules of action type or free hand necessity. Those are rules things, not descriptive fluff things.


Using your hand to retrieve the bolt is a move action. Remember?
No, and I feel like I've said this multiple times already: You're reading the text about using a move action to manually load/unload the extradimensional magazine of 100 bolts, which takes a move action per bolt. That is in no way applicable to any part of reloading a crossbow between shots.



If the crossbow is loaded by the enchantment no action is necessary;
You're mislabeling rules terms. A Free Action is necessary. A Free Action that requires a hand, or more specifically in game terms, it alters the normal crossbow rules entry to say this, instead(with the textual alterations from Quick Loading being in underlined text): "You draw a light crossbow back by pulling a lever. Loading a light crossbow is a free action that provokes attacks of opportunity. Normally, operating a light crossbow requires two hands. However, you can shoot, but not load, a light crossbow with one hand at a -2 penalty on attack rolls."

That's it. That's the only alteration the Quick Loading enhancement makes to the default entry: it changes the word 'move' to the word 'free' in that one spot.


drawing a bolt out of a quiver is a free action already.
Sure, but pulling/winding back the string, catching it on the latch/trigger mechanism, and inserting the bolt with proper alignment into the flight groove, taken all together, is a move action, that this magic weapon enhancement changes to a free action.





I provided a way in a previous post that could explain the behavior in a logical way in reality.
Yes, a logical way, but one that only has partial support in the actual rules text. You've somehow decided to claim that despite not actually saying it, Quick Loading also inserts the bolt into the flight groove, and pulls back the string. It doesn't do either of those things, according to its own text.


Game logic would dictate no hands are necessary because of the inappropriate use of the word "loading."
So your entire claim is that because they use the word 'loading' to refer to the entire process of returning a crossbow from fired to ready-to-fire status, you can extend the rules beyond what the text says?


Reload on the other hand is easily understood as the repetitive actions required to load a weapon with ammunition.
And yet, as I mentioned just above, it's clearly referring to the entire process, while this magic weapon property only alters a small part of that process. I'm confused how you can recognize that 'loading' refers to the whole process, and yet argue that Quick Loading bypasses it all, despite not even hinting at doing so.


Manipulation doesn't require a free hand unless it states it is necessary or logically necessary at DM discretion.

I cited it in my last post: MIC pg 219. You clearly didn't go read it, so I'll quote it here:

"Activating this type of item requires some physical manipulation of it, such as moving an immovable rod or pulling a patch from a robe of useful items. This movement is similar to the somatic component of a spell, in that you need a free hand to perform the action."


At least, the core books don't contradict that statement that I have seen. Therefore reloading a crossbow doesn't require a free hand.
See citation above. Yes, it does require a free hand, BOTH from the crossbow weapon entry text, and from the [Action Type](manipulation) rules entry


Also, reloading a light or heavy crossbow generally required placing the weapon on the ground and releasing your grip to draw the bowstring. To be a stickler for "rules" would require an extra move action to pick the weapon back up. Thank you pulleys and levers for your awesomeness.
A heavy crossbow, for sure, which is why they take longer to load. But I'm not aware of anywhere that lists the draw weight of a light crossbow, so presuming that it can't be pulled back by hand while still holding the weapon in your firing hand is going farther than necessary.




To sum up: The crossbow weapon entry states you need a free hand to reload a crossbow between shots (the whole process of readying a fired crossbow to a state of being ready to fire again)
The Quick Loading enhancement changes it from the default of a move action to do so, to being a free action. It also specifies that this is a Manipulation action, which, according to that rules entry, also requires a free hand.

So we have 2 different places in the rules text saying you need a free hand to reload between shots, and zero texts saying otherwise. What more do we want?

[Darg]

Alright, alright I concede. I appreciate your willingness correct my misunderstanding. If you could clarify one more thing. Under the manipulation entry in the MIC it says "Activating a manipulation item provokes attacks of opportunity." This would imply that that every time one used the enchantment to reload the crossbow it would provoke an AoO. Since the enchantment doesn't get rid of the loading AoO one would provoke 2 AoOs every reload. Is my understanding of the situation correct?

[Crichton]

Alright, alright I concede. I appreciate your willingness correct my misunderstanding. If you could clarify one more thing. Under the manipulation entry in the MIC it says "Activating a manipulation item provokes attacks of opportunity." This would imply that that every time one used the enchantment to reload the crossbow it would provoke an AoO. Since the enchantment doesn't get rid of the loading AoO one would provoke 2 AoOs every reload. Is my understanding of the situation correct?

I don't think 2, no. The [action type](Manipulation) entry isn't a separate thing from loading the crossbow, it's just specifying what type of action it is, under the Quick Loading enhancement. So it's not that it provokes another AoO, it's just that it still does provoke an AoO, like it did before you got the enhancement.



And I wanna be clear, I really do wish I could find a reliable, semi-simple way to make hand crossbows fully self-loading/repeating, for dual wielding awesomeness. I really do. Just haven't found a good way to do it without reaaally out there shenanigans. It's the kind of thing a higher level weapon property should be able to do, but none is printed that does.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Take Psicrystal Affinity (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#psicrystalAffinity), have the psicrystal retrieve two bolts for you with two move actions. You're not spending actions, and it would have cover from your character and thus nobody could AoO it.

[Crichton]

Take Psicrystal Affinity (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#psicrystalAffinity), have the psicrystal retrieve two bolts for you with two move actions. You're not spending actions, and it would have cover from your character and thus nobody could AoO it.

It's not retrieving the bolts that's the issue. It's the whole process of loading of the crossbow between shots that provokes the AoO, with or without the Quick Loading. AoOs are part of the issue, but the bigger issue is being able to reload 2 crossbows while both hands are full.

Rapid fire of 1 crossbow is easy, as getting to be able to reload one as a free action is pretty simple, but still requires your offhand to be empty.

It's one of those things that should be doable, between magic weapons and feats and such, but there just isn't.

[Gorthawar]

Thanks everyone for the suggestions, I had contemplated the use of a race capable of getting Prehensile Tail, however I wanted to keep the character more Human than not; I'm more looking for ways to do this with the use of feats i suppose - my fault for not specifying, lol. I may just have to keep enough crossbows on my person to keep spamming Quick Draw.

Pathfinder has a prehensile hair hex. Your DM might allow you to take it as a feat instead of prehensile tail.
Another option could be the extra hand from magic of ebberon which by RAW allows you to swap your hand crossbows around to it and use a free real hand to reload similar to the trick with the straps above. However since it involves a third hand anyways I would allow it as a DM to load the crossbows directly as it's functionally the same but better style.

[Noxangelo]

a possessed (ghost or demon) crossbow can draw the string and shoot itself, but not reload so you can see if you can get that to fly past the DM.

[Psyren]

Pathfinder has a prehensile hair hex. Your DM might allow you to take it as a feat instead of prehensile tail.

The RAW way to pick this up would be VMC Witch, getting the Hex class feature onto any class and picking prehensile hair that way.

There are specific archetypes that can do this concept too, such as the Sylvan Trickster Rogue or Juggler Bard, depending on what you're after.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

It's not retrieving the bolts that's the issue. It's the whole process of loading of the crossbow between shots that provokes the AoO, with or without the Quick Loading. AoOs are part of the issue, but the bigger issue is being able to reload 2 crossbows while both hands are full.

Rapid fire of 1 crossbow is easy, as getting to be able to reload one as a free action is pretty simple, but still requires your offhand to be empty.

It's one of those things that should be doable, between magic weapons and feats and such, but there just isn't.

See my previous suggestion of Prehensile Tail to get around the issue of not having a free hand.

Assuming the character has managed to make it so firing doesn't provoke an AoO, they can cast or use a wand (in a wand chamber) of Swift Invisibility or Blockade to avoid the reload AoO. Since creatures with cover or with total concealment can't be AoOed.

[Darg]

I think I remember there being a belt that can hold things like a third hand like that magic hand thing. A level 6 warlock can take disembodied hand with a ring of regeneration to have an actual third hand.

[Darg]

Self-Loading Crossbow: This +1 heavy crossbow is much easier to load than mundane crossbows. After firing, the crossbow's string is magically reset to the cocked position, requiring the wielder to simply place a bolt in the weapon to load it. Loading a self-loading crossbow requires only a move-equivalent action.


Activation: Free (manipulation) or move (manipulation); see text
...
A quick loading crossbow accesses an extradimensional space that can hold up to 100 bolts, allowing you to reload the cross-bow more rapidly than normal. Reloading a quick loading hand or light crossbow is a free action (allowing a character with mul-tiple attacks to use his full attack rate), and reloading a quick loading heavy crossbow is a move action. Different types of bolts can be held in the extradimensional space, and you can select freely from these when reloading the crossbow. Adding or removing a bolt by hand from an extradimensional space requires a move (manipulation) action.

If one were to combine these together, the text seems to imply that one wouldn't need a free hand. Quick Loading explicitly tells you to look to the text for how to apply the manipulation action. Self-loading takes care of the action to draw the weapon and quick loading takes care of placing the bolt (using a hand to remove a bolt from the extradimensional space is a move action and would negate the property if applied in addition to the loading action). The self-loading crossbow has a side panel that specifically allows rapid reload to be used with it to make reloading a free action. The SRD has:


However, you can shoot, but not load, a heavy crossbow with one hand at a -4 penalty on attack rolls. You can shoot a heavy crossbow with each hand, but you take a penalty on attack rolls as if attacking with two one-handed weapons. This penalty is cumulative with the penalty for one-handed firing.

Because of the above combo you aren't the one loading the crossbow as it is doing it itself. The MIC specifically mentions being able to add special properties to specific weapons. That means they can be used together. Thoughts?

Edit: Since the crossbow is doing the reloading for you, you wouldn't have to take the reload AoO.

[Crichton]

If one were to combine these together, the text seems to imply that one wouldn't need a free hand. Quick Loading explicitly tells you to look to the text for how to apply the manipulation action. Self-loading takes care of the action to draw the weapon and quick loading takes care of placing the bolt (using a hand to remove a bolt from the extradimensional space is a move action and would negate the property if applied in addition to the loading action). The self-loading crossbow has a side panel that specifically allows rapid reload to be used with it to make reloading a free action. The SRD has:



Because of the above combo you aren't the one loading the crossbow as it is doing it itself. The MIC specifically mentions being able to add special properties to specific weapons. That means they can be used together. Thoughts?

Edit: Since the crossbow is doing the reloading for you, you wouldn't have to take the reload AoO.



Pretty sure we'd already been over this, but no, you still need a free hand, and no, Quick-Loading doesn't make the thing reload for you, it's still explicitly 'You' doing the reloading. So a Self Loading Heavy Crossbow from A&EG with the Rapid Reload Feat would be a free action for you to reload, and that setup with the Quick-Loading property added on would also have a 100 bolt magazine from which you could select different types of ammunition freely (provided that you'd loaded the magazine with different types of bolts ahead of time), but it doesn't 'load it for you' because it doesn't say, anywhere in its text, that it does. Nor does it anywhere have text that offsets the 2 different places in the rules that explicitly say you need a free hand to reload a crossbow. See post above for specifics.

[Darg]

Quick-Loading doesn't make the thing reload for you, it's still explicitly 'You' doing the reloading.

We had been over this and I agree with you on that point. That is why I am bringing up the concept of bringing self-loading and quick loading together.


So a Self Loading Heavy Crossbow from A&EG with the Rapid Reload Feat would be a free action for you to reload

This is true.


that setup with the Quick-Loading property added on would also have a 100 bolt magazine from which you could select different types of ammunition freely (provided that you'd loaded the magazine with different types of bolts ahead of time)

This is also true.


but it doesn't 'load it for you' because it doesn't say, anywhere in its text, that it does. Nor does it anywhere have text that offsets the 2 different places in the rules that explicitly say you need a free hand to reload a crossbow.

It does: "After firing, the crossbow's string is magically reset to the cocked position, requiring the wielder to simply place a bolt in the weapon to load it." It is specifically calling out that the weapon loads automatically without input other than the the trigger which is simply firing the crossbow which is a separate action and placing a bolt in the weapon. Specific trumps general as I hear it. The SRD already mentions that drawing ammunition is a separate free action. It also only ever mentions that you can't load the crossbow with only one hand but never disqualifies the crossbow from doing it for you.

I would normally agree that drawing ammunition would require a free hand; however, quick-loading goes out of it's way to tell you that it would be a move action instead of a free action if you did.

To sum it up, self-loading explicitly removes the need to draw and set the bow by hand and quick-loading removes the hand component of drawing the bolt into position. Specific trumps general, as I have been told on these forums.

[Piggy Knowles]

One poster briefly mentioned it, but the easiest way to TWF with crossbows is to get gloves of storing and/or gloves of the master strategist, alongside something with free action reloading. Wear one on each hand, and when one of your crossbows is empty, store one in your glove (free action), load it with your now-free hand (free action) and restore it (free action). Rinse and repeat as needed for as many iteratives as required.

[Darg]

The problem with that method is that by the rules you can only have one glove of storing/the strategist active at a time because it takes up the slot.

[Crichton]

It does: "After firing, the crossbow's string is magically reset to the cocked position, requiring the wielder to simply place a bolt in the weapon to load it." It is specifically calling out that the weapon loads automatically without input other than the the trigger which is simply firing the crossbow which is a separate action and placing a bolt in the weapon. Specific trumps general as I hear it. The SRD already mentions that drawing ammunition is a separate free action. It also only ever mentions that you can't load the crossbow with only one hand but never disqualifies the crossbow from doing it for you.

I would normally agree that drawing ammunition would require a free hand; however, quick-loading goes out of it's way to tell you that it would be a move action instead of a free action if you did.

To sum it up, self-loading explicitly removes the need to draw and set the bow by hand and quick-loading removes the hand component of drawing the bolt into position. Specific trumps general, as I have been told on these forums.



Nowhere in Quick Loading does it remove the requirement that you need a free hand. We had discussed that the 'fluff' might be that it puts the bolt in for you, from a standpoint of how to describe what it looks like, but that's not what the rules actually say it does, so your proposed combination of the Self Loading Crossbow with the Quick Loading property also doesn't remove that requirement. You're trying to combine them in a way that sounds logical and makes sense from a fluff or visualization/realism perspective, but is still entirely contrary to the actual rules.

Even after you take into account all the text added/altered by the A&EG's entry for the Self Loading Heavy Crossbow and the MIC's entry for the Quick Loading weapon property, the rules still say you can't reload without a free hand (from the crossbow weapon entry) and that you need a free hand to do the reload action (because it's a 'manipulation' action, from the MIC entry on manipulation actions).


You're also still confusing the line in Quick Loading about adding or removing ammunition from the 'magazine' by hand being a move action. Once again, that line of text has absolutely nothing to do with reloading the crossbow between shots. It ONLY has to do with adding more ammunition to the 100 round 'magazine'





The problem with that method is that by the rules you can only have one glove of storing/the strategist active at a time because it takes up the slot.


This is entirely true, though it's a quirk of the glove rules that I've always found silly. Unlike a paired set of gloves/gauntlets, only one glove of storing is doing the magic, so you really should be able to pay double to get a pair. I think you actually might be able to, if you use the MIC rules on adding magical effects to items, but I'd have to dive in and look more closely.

Edit - addition: Looking into the MIC rules (pg 233) for improving magic items, you should (with DM approval, as per the default for custom magical items) be able to add the effect of another Glove of the Master Strategist to the first one, at an added cost that is 1.5 times the original price. So by my math, that would make a 'pair' of them cost 9000gp - 3600 for the first, and 5400 for the addition of the effect on the second one. Now, many people like to quibble about the price discrepancy between the Glove of Storing and Glove of the Master Strategist, but that's a separate conversation. The formula for pricing would stay the same: Cost+Cost*1.5

My personal stance on that is that they're both 3.5 items, so pick whichever you want (Ghostwalk was updated to 3.5 in the Web Enhancement (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20030607a) for it, and the only change to the Glove was one of the magical aura, so the price stays the same)

Is it silly and cheesy to have exploit the free actions of the gloves to have your crossbows flickering in and out of existence while you reload? Yeah, it's silly and cheesy. But it *should* work, by RAW.

[Darg]

Nowhere in Quick Loading does it remove the requirement that you need a free hand. We had discussed that the 'fluff' might be that it puts the bolt in for you....You're trying to combine them in a way that sounds logical and makes sense from a fluff or visualization/realism perspective, but is still entirely contrary to the actual rules.

It isn't contrary to the rules. It is literally in the name of the crossbow "self-loading crossbow." The whole entry is literally telling you that loading a crossbow is simply drawing and setting the bow. The entry even tells you that it works automatically without any extra action by the user. Placing the bolt is part of the draw ammunition action. Quick loading draws the ammunition for you. If it doesn't then drawing the ammunition by hand is a move action (manipulation). The quick loading entry in the MIC specifically tells you to look to the text to find out what causes the actions and out right tells you how it works. If you use your hand to draw ammunition from the extradimensional space it is a move action and not a free action. Should I repeat that last sentence? Tell me how you get around that? You don't.


You're also still confusing the line in Quick Loading about adding or removing ammunition from the 'magazine' by hand being a move action. Once again, that line of text has absolutely nothing to do with reloading the crossbow between shots. It ONLY has to do with adding more ammunition to the 100 round 'magazine'

Show me where it says that it only has to do with adding (or removing) ammunition from the extradimensional space. It has to do with doing it by hand.


Drawing ammunition for use with a ranged weapon (such as arrows, bolts, sling bullets, or shuriken) is a free action.

The rules never say from where. Drawing something is the process of removing something from a type of holder into a position to be used. Quick loading never says that the ammunition is deposited into your hand. It says that removing ammunition by hand from the space is a move action (manipulation). Drawing ammunition is a free action. It can't be used to interrupt another action. According to the rules you can't interrupt the loading process of reloading with a draw ammunition action. If placing the bolt is not part of the draw action then by the rules a crossbow can never be reloaded. If you don't have a free hand after drawing the ammunition then you can't preemptively draw then load either. This is all by the rules.

Obviously this is not the intent of the rules. It is not the intent of the rules to make reloading impossible. It is not the intent of the quick loading entry to nullify itself. The fact still remains that removing ammunition from the extradimensional space by hand is a move action. If you don't have to remove the ammunition by hand then it must be placed automatically or a part of the reloading action. Because the self loading crossbow does the action for you; you, for all intents and purposes, are expending a move action, not reloading the crossbow.



Even after you take into account all the text added/altered by the A&EG's entry for the Self Loading Heavy Crossbow and the MIC's entry for the Quick Loading weapon property, the rules still say you can't reload without a free hand (from the crossbow weapon entry) and that you need a free hand to do the reload action (because it's a 'manipulation' action, from the MIC entry on manipulation actions).

If the crossbow does it for you you don't need a free hand because you aren't doing the reloading.

[Eladrinblade]

would Self Loading placed on a Repeating Light Crossbow work?!

I would think so. Surprised no one else has said so.

[Darg]

I would think so. Surprised no one else has said so.

The Self-loading Crossbow is a special item, not a special property. It would be up to your DM if you wanted to combine two items.

[Psyren]

Pathfinder has the Endless Ammunition (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/magic-weapon-special-abilities/endless-ammunition/) property which specifically states the wielder no longer needs to load the weapon. This should remove both the action and free-hand requirements for your hand crossbow, thus enabling dual-wielding.