Two half feats as one asi

[clash]

You can already choose +2 to one stat or +1 to 2 stats or a half feat that also gives +1 to a stat. This suggests that mechanically these things are all equal. Would you allow taking 2 half feats as a single asi and not getting the +1 to stats? Would they have to be related or offer the same stat as the +1 normally? I feel like it would make them more appealing.

For example you could take moderately armored and heavily armored together to upgrade straight from light armor to heavy.

[Neoh]

Half-Feats gives a stat boost + a little bonus on the side. An ASI is only +2 stats.

You suggest getting a +2 to stats AND 2 bonuses?

Why would anyone ever take the normal ASI then?

[Aeriox]

I think the op is saying that you would only get the extra part of both, not the stat boosts.

[Chronos]

Would it make characters more powerful? Certainly. Would it do so to a degree that was unbalancing? Probably not. I've a hunch that they designed it the way they did as much out of a desire for simplicity as anything else (never mind that there are ways they could have phrased your idea just as simply).

[Anymage]

I'd allow it on a case-by-case basis. Most half feats are weak enough that I wouldn't mind this overmuch, but every now and then you'd see a combination like Elven Accuracy and Resilient: Wisdom that are really nice for certain characters while boosting the associated stat by 2 isn't that exciting for them.

More generally, PHB half feats are generally weak enough that you should be hard pressed to find super combinations, but later books have seen stronger half feats to the point where I don't know that it would be wise to leave as an open-ended rule.

[jas61292]

This would absolutely be a power upgrade. That doesn't mean it would be unbalanced, but it would be a decently respectable increase in power. The example listed in the OP is one of the more obvious cases of a power increase as it uses the first half to satisfy the prerequisites of the second half. But while that is a weird corner case, it is not the only way that this boosts power.

Really, the main power boost comes from the fact the the original equations used to claim this is balanced are wrong. It seems straight forward enough: if a feat is worth an ASI that includes two +1s, than if a feat includes a +1, the other part of the feat must be worth half a normal feat. But this is wrong, because ASIs are not simply two +1s to ability scores. They are two +1s AND the choice of where to put them. So called "half-feats" take that choice away, at least in part, meaning that the "feat" part of them is actually worth more than simply half an ASI.

You can easily see this with an example. Lets say you have a fighter who has 17 strength, and could improve it, but is looking to expand their out of combat abilities. They currently have a Charisma of 12 and proficiency with a Deception from their background. They decide that the Actor feat might be just what they are looking for. On the other hand, they have 14 Wisdom and proficiency with Perception, and taking on a greater share of the scouting duties by picking up Observant is also very attractive to them. Both of these options are "half-feats" but the other half that is not a feat is completely useless to them. +1 Cha takes them to 13. +1 Wis takes them to 15. It won't boost their modifiers, and they are unlikely to ever boost them again in the future. And while Observant could in theory boost their Intelligence of, say, 9, to a 10, that is the stat they care about the least. Half a feat would be worth a floating +1, not a set one. If those feats had such a floating +1, then yes, it would probably be fair to say they are worth exactly half a feat. Picking up Actor and Observant at once would probably be equal to picking up one of the two and boosting their Strength up to 18. But it is far, far more valuable than getting just one and a worthless ASI to a stat that will not take advantage of it.

Now, all that said, while it is clear that two "half feats" are worth more than what the moniker would suggest, I would hardly call it game breaking. It is a modest power boost that will let characters who are looking to branch out be a lot more flexible. But it is not going to ruin anything, if you are prepared to handle it.

[JNAProductions]

Considering what most half-feats are... I don't predict any major issues. Even the most mechanically potent ones tend to be more defensive than offensive, which is generally good.

[clash]

This would absolutely be a power upgrade...
This is a really good point that I hadn't really considered and even though it is a slight boost in power I feel like it makes the change even more desirable. Where the fighter would almost never take actor because the charisma doesn't help it might actually make it a fun and not sub-par option for them.

[da newt]

I think if you allow a PC to take "resilient" for 2 abilities for one ASI (without the +1s), it could approach unbalanced.

[JNAProductions]

I think if you allow a PC to take "resilient" for 2 abilities for one ASI (without the +1s), it could approach unbalanced.

On the one hand, that's really powerful.

On the other hand, it doesn't do anything to increase a PC's offensive power. It just makes them hardier.

[bid]

For example you could take moderately armored and heavily armored together to upgrade straight from light armor to heavy.
For a dwarf who is dumping Str, it would be godsent.

[ad_hoc]

I think if you allow a PC to take "resilient" for 2 abilities for one ASI (without the +1s), it could approach unbalanced.

That would be a separate houserule as feats can only be taken once.

(though I agree that Resilient becomes much better when it is no longer tied to the ability score it provides proficiency for. Resilient (Wisdom) is quite good if you can pick another feat instead of the +1 Wis).

[Lunali]

I think if you allow a PC to take "resilient" for 2 abilities for one ASI (without the +1s), it could approach unbalanced.

This would require an additional change to the rules beyond what is suggested as normally you can only take a feat (resilient included) once. Compare to elemental adept which specifically allows you to take it more than once with different selections.

[Chronos]

In fact, Elemental Adept is the only feat with an exception to that rule.

[GorogIrongut]

I would argue that you should take it a step farther. The most common complaint I hear is that you see the same old builds. By opening up play with half feats (and feats of a similar strength), people will branch out and take a lot of different avenues to create and customize the character they want to play (I'm always a fan of more options).

I haven't really thought it through in any real depth, but the following is what I would do.


While you can technically take an ASI if you really want to, you are able to select 2 feats as listed below.

Skill:
No Prequisites: Acrobat/Actor/Animal Handler/Burglar/Diplomat/Dungeon Delver/Empathic/Gourmand/Healer (+1 Wis)/Historian/Investigator/Keen Mind/Linguist/Master of Disguise/Medic/Menacing/ Observant/Perceptive/Performer/Quick Fingered/Silver Tongued/Skiller (+1 Wis/Int/Cha)/Skulker/Stealthy/Survivalist/Tough
4 skill feats chosen to be able to take these feats: Alert/Inspiring Leader/Mobile/Resilient
6 Skill Feats chosen to be able to take these feats: (uses both feats to take): Lucky

Martial:
No Prerequisites: Athlete/ Brawny/Durable/Grappler/Heavily Armoured/Lightly Armoured/Mage Slayer/Menacing/Moderately Armoured/Observant/Savage Attacker
4 melee feats chosen to be able to take these feats: Alert/Blade Mastery (+1 Dex/Str)/Charger (+1 Str)/Defensive Duelist (+1 Dex)/Dual Wielder/Heavy Armour Master/Martial Adept/Medium Armour Master/Mobile/Mounted Combatant/Resilient/Shield Master/Tavern Brawler/Tough
6 Melee feats chosen to be able to take these feats (uses both feats to take): Crossbow Expert/Great Weapon Master/Lucky/Polearm Master/Sentinel/Sharpshooter


Magic:
No Prerequisites: Alchemist/Arcanist/Elemental Adept/Mage Slayer/Magic Initiate/Naturalist/Observant/Ritual Caster/Savage Attacker (non melee)/Spell Sniper/Theologian/Tough/Any Racial Feat that provides Magic
4 Magic Feats chosen to be able to take these feats: Alert/Mobile/Resilient
6 Magic Feats chosen to be able to take these feats (uses both feats to take): Lucky/Warcaster


Racial Feats only allowed to the given races unless the DM decides otherwise. These are grouped into Tier 1 and 2. To get a Tier 2 racial stat, you already have to have taken atleast 1 other racial feat available to your race.

Tier 1: Barbed Hide/Bountiful Luck/Critter Friend (+1 Wis)/Dragon Fear/Dragon Hide/Drow High Magic/Dwarven Resilience/Everybody's Friend/Fade Away/Fey Teleportation/Flames of Phlegethos/Grudge Bearer/Human Determination/Orcish Aggression/Orcish Fury/Prodigy/Second Chance/Squat Nimbleness/Svirfneblin Magic/Wonder Maker/Wood Elf Magic

Tier 2: Dragon Wings/Elven Accuracy/Infernal Constitution


Like I said, that's just a quick view of things. I'm sure there are some bits that aren't quite totally balanced. And honestly there were a few feats that I wanted to do a quick rewrite of. But that's my fast and dirty opinion.

[Anymage]

For a dwarf who is dumping Str, it would be godsent.

Assuming mountain dwarf, you'd be running around without a boost to your prime stat (+2 con is admittedly nice for everyone, +2 str is by definition a waste when you're dumping it) and then likely sinking your 4th level asi into heavily armored/HAM. This can give you a tanky caster, but you'll wind up two points of casting stat mod behind the curve and can't reach your 20 until level 16. That's a pretty significant cost for wearing plate.

Hill dwarf? A cleric without one of the heavy armor domains could do okay with the above trick, but ask yourself how often clerics with heavily armored domains pick up HAM currently. It isn't that big a deal. A class with innate light armor could skip straight to heavy, but most such classes have restrictions on using class features with heavier armors, want to be sneaky against the stealth disadvantage for heavy armors, and/or will face the drawback of both not boosting casting stat with racials and sinking their fourth level ASI into a feat. Still a significant opportunity cost.

(Both the above assume point buy/standard array instead of rolling. Good rolls can admittedly undermine some of my points, but then they can also let one guy at the table have nothing under 14 so we aren't beginning from a baseline of strict balance.)

So long as the two half feats have to share a stat that they're boosting, the idea is safe a lot more often than it isn't. Especially with phb feats, it shouldn't cause problems.

[JakOfAllTirades]

I think if you allow a PC to take "resilient" for 2 abilities for one ASI (without the +1s), it could approach unbalanced.

I think this falls under the general rule that you can't take a feat twice unless the feat description says you can.

So even if I allowed two half feats, I would definitely not allow this.


edit: I see this has been covered already. Carry on....

[Nagog]

I'd allow it on a case-by-case basis. Most half feats are weak enough that I wouldn't mind this overmuch, but every now and then you'd see a combination like Elven Accuracy and Resilient: Wisdom that are really nice for certain characters while boosting the associated stat by 2 isn't that exciting for them.

More generally, PHB half feats are generally weak enough that you should be hard pressed to find super combinations, but later books have seen stronger half feats to the point where I don't know that it would be wise to leave as an open-ended rule.

Other than the OP's example, I'd say a more worrying combo would be Elven Accuracy and Revenant Blade. For a Crit Fishing Elven Paladin, that combo can get really ridiculous really fast.
Picking up 2 Resilients would be pretty powerful for casters, particularly if one of them is Con.
Durable and Dwarf Resilience combined on a caster or a Monk can be exceptionally powerful.
Actor and the Half Elf exclusive Everybody's Friend (Expertise in Persuasion and Deception) is pretty powerful

I would allow this on a case-by-case basis, but I have a few very craft powergamers I wouldn't openly tell about it because they'd definitely abuse the daylights out of it.
As another option, I'd be more convinced to allow it if the ASI part of the feat is connected to a stat that's already maxed. For example, a 20 INT Wizard picking up Observant and Alert's secondary features.