[3.5] What's a good melee build?

[Trandir]

Well it has been a while but I'm joining a 3.5 campaing.

I'd like to play a melee character but I know that the martials kind of fall behind rather quickly. So what's a good gish build?

I guess clericzilla (bonus the DM avoids errata if possible for whatever reason) is always an option but I'd like to see other possibilities as well.

I begin at 1st level but can even pick a LA +1 race or template since the campaing is already started to make up a little for the loot and exp difference.

Edit: no tome of battle and no flaws

[NotASpiderSwarm]

Some more info would be helpful. Allowed books, setting?

Basic ideas, Tome of Battle classes are very solid, and will keep up with casters outside of truly high-OP games. I'd always recommend that.

Without ToB, the general idea is to pick one or two things that you can do and focus on doing them very well. AOE tripper for battlefield control, Dungeoncrasher for lots of damage, Shock Trooper for stupid amounts of damage, etc. Most full-BAB classes are frontloaded, so don't be intimidated by builds that go Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian 1/Ranger 1/Warblade 3/Fighter 2 or similar, that's just how melee builds work. Pick a race that's large size or beg a Polymorph into a Centaur off your Wizard and go wild.

Clericzilla is a pain in the rump and will get books thrown at you, don't unless it's already a high-op game. If you do want a caster-fighter, go Druid. Take Natural Spell at 6, a cat or bear Animal Companion, Monk's Belt with a Wilding Clasp for Wis-to-AC, turn into the biggest cat or bear you can find, buff up with Spell Compendium spells, eat people's faces. Cleric's take a lot of cheese to be gods in melee, Druids get 90% of the way there core-only(but be prepared to make spreadsheets to calculate your wildshape stats easier).

[Oracle71]

There are many good melee builds but for anyone here to give you good and useful advice, we would need to know more info. Specifically: what books/resources can you use, and do you have a specific concept in mind?

oops, got ninja'd

[Trandir]

Some more info would be helpful. Allowed books, setting?




There are many good melee builds but for anyone here to give you good and useful advice, we would need to know more info. Specifically: what books/resources can you use, and do you have a specific concept in mind?



Well the DM said that every book is legal. But the less obscure the books you use are the better. Everything still legal from 3.0, core, the complete series, libris mortis, expanded psionics, vile darkness and exalted deeds being some of the approved books that got specifically called out during the introduction.


As for the character concept I'd like to use a weapon and have spells. Druid is also good but I am not ready for the bookkeeping required, and yes is probably better to not use pre-errata clericzilla in anything less than a meatgrinder players vs DM scenario.

Edit: also we use a 25 point buy to determine the Stats.

[Gruftzwerg]

Have a look at my signature. There are several pure melee builds that can at least hold their water in combat scenarios.
If you are looking for a gish, have a look at the clawlock build and the shivering touch build.
My last 2 builds are not updated into my signature, but are both really strong and fit the given task.
Hellfire Escalation Glaivelock (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?607457-The-Hellfire-Escalation-Glaivelock-A-Killer-Kobold-Build) a tiny deadly kobold build featuring Eldritch Glaive optimization
&
Papa Smurf (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?608373-Papa-Smurf-a-Redcap-Lion-of-Talisid-(ubercharger-gish))a wild shape double pounce combo featuring the Redcap form and a fleshraker mount.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

What's your starting level, and what level do you reasonably expect to reach?
Can you start out with a level adjustment already bought off (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm)?
What alignment/personality did you have in mind for this character, or is there any you would prefer?
Do you prefer high Int, high Wis, or high Cha characters?

[Trandir]

Have a look at my signature. There are several pure melee builds that can at least hold their water in combat scenarios.
If you are looking for a gish, have a look at the clawlock build and the shivering touch build.
My last 2 builds are not updated into my signature, but are both really strong and fit the given task.
Hellfire Escalation Glaivelock (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?607457-The-Hellfire-Escalation-Glaivelock-A-Killer-Kobold-Build) a tiny deadly kobold build featuring Eldritch Glaive optimization
&
Papa Smurf (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?608373-Papa-Smurf-a-Redcap-Lion-of-Talisid-(ubercharger-gish))a wild shape double pounce combo featuring the Redcap form and a fleshraker mount.

Thanks. I'll look into those builds.


What's your starting level, and what level do you reasonably expect to reach?
Can you start out with a level adjustment already bought off (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm)?
What alignment/personality did you have in mind for this character, or is there any you would prefer?
Do you prefer high Int, high Wis, or high Cha characters?


First level
No idea but probably high level
Nope. There isn't even the option to buy off the LA. You can just choose races up to LA +1 at character creation.
Nothing particular in mind.
Idk, irl I am neither wise, smart or charismatic so I'd have to improvise anyway

[ZamielVanWeber]

I had a ton of fun as a sword and board Diamond Mind Warblade. Good AC, decent damage, make that iconic sword and board style work. How much oomph did you want for your melee character?

[Trandir]

I had a ton of fun as a sword and board Diamond Mind Warblade. Good AC, decent damage, make that iconic sword and board style work. How much oomph did you want for your melee character?

I feat that the tome of battle would be a bit off from what the DM would allow, particularly if it's a warblade X thing.

And I guess all the oomph.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Starting at 1st level, with a free +1 LA....

This build is more of a tank than a damage dealer, the Adamantine Dragon:

Warforged, Dragonborn of Bahamut (RotD, heart aspect), Mineral Warrior (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20031003e) (gained after Dragonborn so you don't lose anything it grants). You lose the default composite plating, light fortification, and slam attack from Warforged, but you retain your Construct [Living Construct] type and subtype and everything that comes with those (source (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20070112a)).

Go Crusader in ToB, you could plan to go Crusader 5/ Binder 1/ Hellreaver 5/ Crusader 9 (always bind Naberius), or just stay single-classed if you prefer. 25 point buy is sort of tough, but I'd go Str 16, Dex 14, Con 9, Int 12, Wis 12, Cha 8 before adjustments, for final stats of Str 18, Dex 12, Con 17, Int 10, Wis 8, Cha 4.

Start with two flaws (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm) (more here (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?258440-The-quot-Best-quot-Flaws#30)) for two extra feats, your best choices are Insomniac (which should get a DM veto), Bravado, No Time For Book Learning, Love of Nature, Shaky, and Murky-Eyed. Feats should be Entangling Exhalation, Stone Power, and Adamantine Body starting out, then Extra Granted Maneuver, then maybe Shield Specialization and Shield Ward and/or Heavy Armor Optimization. You're not slowed down by being armored so you can still use skills like Tumble, and you should get the Quick trait (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterTraits.htm#quick) as well. If you can convince your DM to let you keep the Warforged slam attack, that should be your primary melee weapon as it adds 1.5x Str to damage while using a shield, standard-action martial strikes don't get iterative attacks anyway, and you can also take the Brawler trait and Bestial Instinct flaw.

In combat you should use your breath attack with entangling exhalation as often as possible to keep as many opponents debuffed as you can. Between breaths use the most appropriate martial strike you currently have granted, or a normal attack, and always use Stone Power if you're able to and taking damage. The idea is that entangled opponents won't be able to easily move past you to attack other characters, plus they'll be taking damage every round from that, so they're more likely to focus on you, the tankiest character ever. You'll be negating damage with Stone Power and DR, and healing yourself with Devoted Spirit maneuvers (which aren't reduced by half as they're not positive energy).

If you go Hellreaver you'll be able to supplement your attacks with swift actions to heal even more or boost your melee attacks. At Hellreaver 5 and binding Naberius you'll have an unlimited pool of holy fury. You'll want an odd-numbered Con score at that point as you'll take 2 Con damage to renew your holy fury, fast heal one point of that on the same round, and have an unchanged Con bonus for one turn for easy bookkeeping.


If you want more of a damage dealer, go Water Orc (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/elementalRacialVariants.htm#racesOfWater) instead of Warforged, and Warblade instead of Crusader. Still go Dragonborn and Mineral Warrior but probably with the wings aspect for flight.

[Trandir]

Starting at 1st level, with a free +1 LA....

This build is more of a tank than a damage dealer, the Adamantine Dragon:

Snip snap


I am sorry but the DM is almost certanly not going though the tome of battle, and does allow flaws but without the payoff.

I am trurly sorry that you spent your time to write all of that even tho I can use almost nothing.

[NotASpiderSwarm]

Goliath (Races of Stone) Barbarian. Take the Goliath Barbarian sub level at lvl 1, Wolf Totem Barbarian(from Unearthed Arcana) at 2. Your weapon is a Large Guisarme(and a spiked gauntlet). Snag Combat Reflexes if you've got a decent Dex(you won't at that point-buy), otherwise pick up Power Attack for later. Get Knockdown at lvl 3. Pick any non-Fighter full-BAB class to fill out the levels, including more Barbarian, until lvl 6. At 6/7, take the first two levels of fighter, use them on various Shock Trooper(CW)/Leap Attack(CAdv)/etc shenanigans, and buy a Lance. Grab Extra Rage at some point if you've got space for it in your build.

At first level, you just hit things, very hard. At 3rd level, every time you hit them they fall over, since you're large and have Imp Trip and stupid strength. At 6, you swap to charging, power attacking for fullx4, and watching enemies go splat.

Some people will tell you to take Spirit Lion Totem instead for Pounce, but Pounce does literally nothing until level 6, so I prefer Goliath Barb+Wolf Totem for early game.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Melee character, no ToB or flaws, starting at 1st level with a free +1 LA, 25 point buy...

A lion that turns into a person, and eventually other things:
Human, Divine Minion (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20050209a) of Anhur, variant Ranger (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#ranger) 1/ Master of Many Forms 7/ Warshaper 4/ MoMF 3/ whatever. Feats are Alertness and Endurance at 1st, then Multiattack and Improved Multiattack and probably Combat Reflexes and whatever else you want. If you want to break the game in half, take Aberration Wild Shape and Assume Supernatural Ability: Eye Rays. Ability score priority is Con > Wis > all else.

Two-handed melee cleric:
LN Human, God-Blooded (MMV) for the +1 LA if your DM wants to make up a new version, Cleric of Zarus (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20041203a) 6/ Divine Oracle 4/ Contemplative 10. Starting domains are Strength and War, get the spontaneous domain casting ACF for one of those. Contemplative domains should be Law and Destiny. Plan to get DMM: Persistent, Power Attack, and whatever else you want. Divine Defiance and/or Law Devotion can be worthwhile if you'll have a few turn/rebuke uses left over every day.

[Jack_McSnatch]

I am sorry but the DM is almost certanly not going though the tome of battle, and does allow flaws but without the payoff.

I am trurly sorry that you spent your time to write all of that even tho I can use almost nothing.

He lets you take a flaw, but not get the bonus feat from it? So... he will allow you to intentionally cripple your character, and give nothing in return?

[Biggus]

You might find some good ideas here: https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?321715-The-Gish-Handbook

Paladin 2/Sorcerer 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Sacred Exorcist 8 is always a good one, Cha to saves and turn undead, which allows you to get some good mileage out of divine feats. Could be tough with 25 point buy though (although that's true of most gishes apart from CoDzilla).

[Trandir]

He lets you take a flaw, but not get the bonus feat from it? So... he will allow you to intentionally cripple your character, and give nothing in return?

Yup. If you want to cripple yourself it will be only to have the RP element. Nobody is forced to do it and probably nobody will but it's an option nonetheless

[Mystral]

Well it has been a while but I'm joining a 3.5 campaing.

I'd like to play a melee character but I know that the martials kind of fall behind rather quickly. So what's a good gish build?

I guess clericzilla (bonus the DM avoids errata if possible for whatever reason) is always an option but I'd like to see other possibilities as well.

We can even pick a LA +1 race since the campaing is already started to make up a little for the loot and exp difference.

Edit: no tome of battle and no flaws
I've had a lot of success playing a sorcadin. Basically you get 2 Levels in Paladin, 4 Levels in Sorcerer and then pick up a couple of prestige classes that both support fighting and full spellcasting. The standard sorcadin build is Pal 2/Sor 4/Spellsword 1/AbjChamp 5/SacEx 8 .

Sorcerer and Paladin work very well together because you get your charisma as a spellcasting stat and as a bonus on your feats. Depending on which level you begin on, things might be a bit rough, especially on levels 3-6.

If the power level of your campaign isn't that that high and everything is on board, you can also have a lot of success as a basic trip fighter.

And there are a lot of ways to make melee bards work.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

For simple gish builds, it's hard to beat Psychic Warrior and Duskblade (depending on whether you want to go psionic or magical). Gish-in-a-can.

[Piggy Knowles]

For simple gish builds, it's hard to beat Psychic Warrior and Duskblade (depending on whether you want to go psionic or magical). Gish-in-a-can.

Agreed. Since you're starting at level 1 and can use an LA +1 race, I'd recommend going with a half-giant psychic warrior. Start with Combat Expertise and Improved Trip as your starting feats, take expansion as your power known, buy a guisarme and go to town. You'll have a great bonus to trip (+4 from powerful build, +3-4 from Strength and another effective +5 if you use expansion), after which point you'll get a free follow-up attack via Improved Trip. Simple, easy, effective and won't require any extra books beyond what was already approved by your DM.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

There are some great psychic warrior builds here. (http://bg-archive.minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=2926.0) Feel free to add a monk level and Tashalatora for more monkyness. Dragonborn warforged is good for that.

[Quertus]

We can even pick a LA +1 race since the campaing is already started to make up a little for the loot and exp difference.


What?


Everything still legal from 3.0, core,

Crit stacking? Find something that worked in 3.0, and was removed in 3.5, and do that while you have the opportunity. Crit stacking is the first thing to come to mind. Granted, if you're starting at 1st (you should add that detail to the OP), it won't come online for a long time.


He lets you take a flaw, but not get the bonus feat from it? So... he will allow you to intentionally cripple your character, and give nothing in return?


Yup. If you want to cripple yourself it will be only to have the RP element. Nobody is forced to do it and probably nobody will but it's an option nonetheless

That's… awesome! I'm jealous. Sounds like a great opportunity to invent new flaws, and see how they play.