CHA vs STR - I don't want to die

[Tom Bomb]

Hey all,
I'm about to play a campaign with some of my friends and my DM keeps reminding us that it is going to be a deadly campaign.
I don't want to die (I just won't enjoy creating a new character halfway in the campaign), so I'm working on optimizing my build in order to ensure survival.
We will be a party of three. There is a Kensei Monk, and probably a Moon Druid. I decided to run a Devotion Paladin. We will be playing Curse of Strahd so I think it's a good fit thematically and composition-wise. Also I my DM said the campaign would end around level 14 at the most, so I'm only looking at making myself and my group as resilient as I can until then.

I decided to go variant human to start with 16 in both Strength and Charisma. The feat I chose is Inspiring Leader in order to give lot's of HP on the long run, which I believe will be important.

Here is how I plan to play out my development.
Lv. 1: STR 16, DEX 10, CON 13, INT 8, WIS 10, CHA 16, Inspiring Leader
Lv. 4: STR 18, DEX 10, CON 13, INT 8, WIS 10, CHA 16, Inspiring Leader
Lv. 8: STR 18, DEX 10, CON 14, INT 8, WIS 10, CHA 16, Inspiring Leader, Resilient (CON)
Lv. 12: STR 20, DEX 10, CON 14, INT 8, WIS 10, CHA 16, Inspiring Leader, Resilient (CON)

What is making me really hesitant is whether I should bump my Charisma to 18 rather than my Strength at level 4. The reason being my Aura of protection will help me and my party survive, I would have better socializing (no other CHA based character in our composition), higher spell DC when it matters, more HP out of Inspiring Leader and I'm thinking the difference of +1 to hits that I would miss from leaving my strength at 16 would be compensated with Sacred Weapon.

Now what would be your two cent on this issue?

Also while I have your attention, any skill proficiency recommendation?

[Chad.e.clark]

Personally, I would recommend bumping Cha over Str if you are picking up Inspiring Leader. I would also recommend Defense fighting style in that case.

If you were picking up say, Polearm Master, then I would recommend Dueling and bumping Str up.

But for surviving a "deadly campaign " I would be more apt to buff the entire team, which between Inspiring Leader and paladin Aura's, boost that Charisma is what I suggest.

[Biggstick]

By only having a 13 in Constitution, I'd recommend a complete swap of an ASI for Resilient Constitution.

Gaining that bonus for Constitution saving throws earlier then level 8 will make you more survivable overall, and will make it less likely for you to die.

Afterwards though, regarding the decision to choose between Strength and Charisma, I'd definitely go with Charisma. 16 Strength will be enough for you to be effective, and anytime you really need to do well in a fight, you can simply use Channel Divinity and Shield of Faith as round 1 actions (boosting both offensive output and your AC). Your party will also greatly appreciate having a higher bonus to saving throws that comes from having a higher Charisma.

You won't necessarily need to worry about being able to do more damage consistently, as you're a Paladin. If you need more damage, just pop off some Divine Smites.

[Skylivedk]

Please don't do Res:Con at level 1. You might be bored to death before you hit something. Also the bonus from proficiency and to hp is quite small. I much prefer your original plan; and yes cha would be the way to go. Are you set on pure Paladin? Shield is a very good work to make you survive longer. You can get it both from Hexblade and Sorcerer. Both are good dips.

Persuasion, Athletics, Perception and maybe intimidation are good skills

[Tom Bomb]

By only having a 13 in Constitution, I'd recommend a complete swap of an ASI for Resilient Constitution.

Gaining that bonus for Constitution saving throws earlier then level 8 will make you more survivable overall, and will make it less likely for you to die.

I understand this route but isn't having +1 health times numbers of allies plus me (minimum 3) every short rest better? In the beginning of the campaign I don't think there will be many miss or die saving throw and concentration spells won't be as important as in the finals fights.


Please don't do Res:Con at level 1. You might be bored to death before you hit something. Also the bonus from proficiency and to hp is quite small.

Level 1 I'm getting Inspiring Leader. Aren't you warning me against Resilience level 4?
Also I do not intend on multi-classing, it's not what I'm looking with this character.

[Biggstick]

I understand this route but isn't having +1 health times numbers of allies plus me (minimum 3) every short rest better? In the beginning of the campaign I don't think there will be many miss or die saving throw and concentration spells won't be as important as in the finals fights.

That'd be 1 additional temporary HP per party member, which at your current part size would be 3 total hp. If you take Resilient Constitution, that's an additional point of HP every level. If you're taking it at level 4, that'd be an additional 4 total HP for yourself.

To represent the total HP value of Inspiring Leader, it requires every person getting hit to get it's full value of that extra +2 Charisma. To represent the total HP value of Resilient Constitution, it requires just you getting hit. While it's possible every party member gets hit every combat, I would find it far more likely that the Paladin or the shapeshifted Druid is getting hit.

I see more benefits in regard to total HP coming from Resilient Constitution (when one has an odd Constitution) compared to +2 Charisma for an Inspiring Leader in a 3 PC party.

Outside of the HP benefit, Paladins definitely gain a ton of benefits from a boost to Charisma. Most of them are in support of your allies through your Aura of Protection, your increased skill checks, a higher number of prepared spells, a higher DC for your spells, as well as a larger bonus for your Channel Divinity. All of those are great things to have.

However, the raw HP and Constitution saving throw proficiency boosts you almost into auto-save territory.

Level 3 Con save: +1 (13 Constitution)
Level 4 Con save: +4 (14 Constitution + Resilient Con)
Level 5 Con save: +5 (14 Constitution + Resilient Con)
Level 6 Con save: +8 (14 Constitution + Resilient Con + Aura of Protection)

At level 6, you're practically guaranteed to make any concentration check required of you. In the party described, Bless will likely be an incredibly powerful spell. If you use it, and roll a 1 on both your concentration check and your Bless die, your Constitution saving throw will be a 10 (1 + 1 + 8). Even without Bless, you'd have to roll a 1 on any constitution save to lose concentration.

Personally, I value the ability to maintain concentration and having more HP for self in the game type you've described. You as a PC are already providing Inspiring Leader to the party, which will still be a solid amount of temporary HP. Being selfish with your features a little earlier (level 4 vice level 8) means you're more likely to make it to level 8 imo, and are a little more able to be able to pick up that additional +2 Charisma.

[djreynolds]

You have sacred weapon, once a short rest you add your charisma to hit.

So that 20 charisma is +5.... similar to GWM -5

I recommend this:

1. Dex should be an 8... dump this

2. I always begin battle as a devotion paladin with sacred weapon and then cast as a BA shield of faith. Since channel divinity is not a spell, some DMs allow this while some do not.

3. Next round, GWM til dead

4. Save your smites for critical hits or undead to make the most of using a spell slot, you will need spells such as protection from evil and magic weapon until at least 6th level when the monk and druid's attacks are magical

5. Short rest often and recharge channel divinity, your monk's KI and the druid's wild shape

6. Most important get a 4th member, honestly, even an arcane trickster will fit in nice or a wizard

7. Turn undead is also useful, just cast bless in place of sacred weapon if your channel divinity it out

8. I recommend defensive style as it works with any weapon and/or shield layout

good luck

[Chad.e.clark]

I saw several posts about Inspiring Leader only adding +1 THP per party member, where are we getting that from? Even at level one its character level + Cha mod for up to 6 friendly creatures, so with Cha 16 that is 4 THP per PC. Add in Aid on top of Inspiring leader when it comes in at level 5 and we have quite a nice HP buffer going on. Granted you could use Aid as well if you went Res: Con, but still, especially in small parties, it is reasonable to expect all members to be taking hits (Kensei Monk and Moon Druid were the other two members mentioned, I believe.)

Res: Con is a "me" play.

Inspiring Leader is a "we" play.

What is going to go further in a 3 man party strolling through Barovia?

[Tom Bomb]

I saw several posts about Inspiring Leader only adding +1 THP per party member, where are we getting that from? Even at level one its character level + Cha mod for up to 6 friendly creatures, so with Cha 16 that is 4 THP per PC.

We're only mentioning the difference between putting the ASI in CHA for 18 Cha (modifier 4) or taking STR or Res CHA modifier 3). So the difference in HP with Inspiring leader is 1 HP per party member.


in Aid on top of Inspiring leader when it comes in at level 5 and we have quite a nice HP buffer going on.

Unfortunately temporary HP do not stack, so it would be one or another. Albeit having a free spell slot level 2 will be quite the boon.


What is going to go further in a 3 man party strolling through Barovia?

I don't know ? What's your take on it? :smallamused:

[Yakk]

If you have inspiring leader you already grant X HP to your group.

Then the marginal value of an additional +2 cha is 1 temp HP/party member/rest, in terms of party HP. Aka 3 temp / rest. +1 con is worth 4 HP max, and 8 HP/day.

At 2 rests/day, that is 9 temp HP (3 total max) vs 8 healed and 4 max, assuming everyone takes damage.

[djreynolds]

Sacred weapon equals great weapon master, trust me on this.

A smite is 2d8... roughly an average of 9 damage, GWM is +10.

And any kill you get even just from smiting... you get a bonus action whack.

You obviously cannot use GWM every time and you may not have a use of sacred weapon

The toughest thing of devotion is sacred weapon is an action vs vengeance's vow of enmity's bonus action

So I would take GWM at 4th level and get charisma to 18 at 8th.

And get a 4th person to play, now a life cleric or a wizard would be nice

And your party needs your aura of protection, you are melee trio.

[Quietus]

Unfortunately temporary HP do not stack, so it would be one or another. Albeit having a free spell slot level 2 will be quite the boon.

Aid is not temporary HP, it's an increase to your maximum HP (and the current HP to go with it). The two do in fact stack.

[da newt]

How about Yuan-ti race and HEXlock dip to be as SAD as you can be? I think this combo may be about as survivable as you can get, but might be a little less DPR maxed.

[Tanarii]

That'd be 1 additional temporary HP per party member, which at your current part size would be 3 total hp. If you take Resilient Constitution, that's an additional point of HP every level. If you're taking it at level 4, that'd be an additional 4 total HP for yourself.

To represent the total HP value of Inspiring Leader, it requires every person getting hit to get it's full value of that extra +2 Charisma. To represent the total HP value of Resilient Constitution, it requires just you getting hit. While it's possible every party member gets hit every combat, I would find it far more likely that the Paladin or the shapeshifted Druid is getting hit.

Technically personal Con is only relevant if you take enough damage to go to 0 hp. So it's the last 4 hit points of damage at level 4.

And Inspiring Leader is +3 hps/ short rest, so +9 per day. And it's front loaded, it's the first 3 hps/PC/SR. But of course, as with more HPs, it doesn't matter until they take enough damage to get to the last hit point.

But of course it's not that simple, because players heal when they feel in danger.

Regardless, due to IL being per short rest, the comparison is +1 HP/level to +1 HP/char/SR, or effectively +3 HP/Char.

[djreynolds]

You have aura of protection, this should get you through. So max out charisma, especially as a devotion paladin with sacred weapon.

You have the protection from evil spell, use this.

GWM in early levels with just hitting and smiting (not the power attack portion) should grant you a good amount of bonus action attacks. With sacred weapon and GWM's power attack, you should be cleaning house.

With this party, the monk and the druid are supporting you. Your paladin is going to have to lay down the smack.

4th level GWM
8th level charisma
12th level charisma

The advantage of this party is at 6th level you basically all have the ability to hit any enemy who requires magic or silver weapons.

You need a 4th party member though

[Tom Bomb]

GWM in early levels with just hitting and smiting (not the power attack portion) should grant you a good amount of bonus action attacks. With sacred weapon and GWM's power attack, you should be cleaning house.

I'm not interested in GWM. I understand it's good but it's not the playstyle I'm going for.


You need a 4th party member though

It's a three player campaign. DM said so.


Technically personal Con is only relevant if you take enough damage to go to 0 hp. So it's the last 4 hit points of damage at level 4.

And Inspiring Leader is +3 hps/ short rest, so +9 per day. And it's front loaded, it's the first 3 hps/PC/SR. But of course, as with more HPs, it doesn't matter until they take enough damage to get to the last hit point.

But of course it's not that simple, because players heal when they feel in danger.

Regardless, due to IL being per short rest, the comparison is +1 HP/level to +1 HP/char/SR, or effectively +3 HP/Char.

Yeah it's pretty much my dilemma. Which is better? I can see the latter matter more often than the former.

[chando]

On paladins and Other STR characters that have another very important stat (valor bards, some clerics, Str-Rogue, non-hexblade bladelocks, Barbarians, Str-Rangers, etc) I usually go for initial Str 16 and go either for Feats or other stat bumps, and wait/wish for some Str boosting belt. But even if you have Str 16 and Cha 18-20 at higher levels you still hit sufficiently, especially if the party work together with enabling spells and special abilities.

If you pick a target, the druids cast a self buff and wildshape and pick a target, and the monk pick a nother target to attack a billion times and stand there to take alll the damage, you'll going down no matter your stats.

Ask your friend druid if he has something that would help hold off the bad guy or make them easier to hit, like Entagle/Faerie Fire, so that he uses those and similar as levels go up, ask iff he can summon some wolfs or something when you guys are about 5th level to help spread the damage around... those migth help. Incentive your monk to take mobile if he really wants to flurry all the rounds and stay out of enemies range, tell how great he is at finishing off enemies you are taking on or the enemy backlines... Be the inspiring leader you aspire to be. Than take the higher Cha. :P
jusct my couple cents :)

[Biggstick]

Technically personal Con is only relevant if you take enough damage to go to 0 hp. So it's the last 4 hit points of damage at level 4.

And Inspiring Leader is +3 hps/ short rest, so +9 per day. And it's front loaded, it's the first 3 hps/PC/SR. But of course, as with more HPs, it doesn't matter until they take enough damage to get to the last hit point.

But of course it's not that simple, because players heal when they feel in danger.

Regardless, due to IL being per short rest, the comparison is +1 HP/level to +1 HP/char/SR, or effectively +3 HP/Char.

This is a solid analysis of the choices between Resilient Constitution and +2 Charisma.

In a white-room example, I'd agree that the direct comparison is +1 HP/level to +1 HP/char/SR. However, in my play through of Strahd, we only ever had a "standard" adventuring day in two locations. While any DM can ensure the standard adventuring day is what's experienced, I don't believe it can be realistically expected for CoS. I would also contest that the benefit from Inspiring Leader is only truly realized when everyone takes damage; the Monk is likely to avoid damage as much as possible, meaning they're likely to not ever expend those temporary HP (through Bonus Action Dodge as well as Disengage/massive movement speed). This puts the HP from Inspiring Leader more so being expended by the Paladin and the Druid more often then not. I'd also contend that it's going to be more typical for the adventuring party to get 1 short rest per day, due to the typical expectations of adventuring in CoS.

Personally, I think they're both quite similar in value in regard to HP. Picking up Resilient Constitution is a scaling choice that continues giving more HP per level gained. As levels are gained, it becomes a larger safety net of HP helping keep you from falling to 0 HP. Picking up the +2 Charisma is simply a flat +1 temporary HP per party member per short rest (and that's only if they've even taken damage).


Yeah it's pretty much my dilemma. Which is better? I can see the latter matter more often than the former.

Given the value of both are so close, I'd recommend choosing based off the secondary feature of each choice.

Resilient Constitution gives you Constitution saving throw proficiency.

+2 Charisma gives you an additional prepared spell, a higher spell save DC, higher saving throws when Aura of Protection comes around, as well as a higher bonus for your Channel Divinity.

If I was playing a GWM Devotion Paladin, I'd choose the +2 Charisma, hands down.

Seeing as how you're going SnB, I'd prefer the Constitution saving throw proficiency. It's a selfish choice that keeps you alive longer (and more easily maintaining concentration) then +2 Charisma will during levels 4-7 imo.

[furby076]

I've never played CoS, so not sure how many things will surprise your group...don't discount the Alert feat. +5 initiative and you can't be surprised. In my opinion, one of the best feats that keeps on giving. Besides, as a paladin, your initiative will suck and a +5 init is nothing to sneeze at