3.5 Barbarian Optimisation

[Trandir]

After a while I decided that for once I'll just do a not so great thing and just play a straight martial, and the one I choose is the barbarian. But I'm a bit rusty so I could use some help.

Here are some useful info:

Ability scores: point buy 25 (I know it's on the weak side)
Starting level: 1 and we can get races and/or templates for up to LA +1
Flaws: you do not get an extra feat for picking up a flaw

All these are approved books (but the DM might occasionally approve things from outher books as well)

Every 3.0 book which hasn't been updated
Book of Exalted Deeds
Book of Vile Darkness
Complete Series
Draconomicon
Dragonlance Campaign Setting
DMG
Eberron Campaign Setting
Expanded Psionics Handbook
Heroes of Horror
Libris Mortis
Lost Empires of Faerun
Miniatures Handbook
MM I, II and III
Planar Handbook
Player’s Guide to Eberron and Faerun
PHB
Races of: Ansalon, Destiny, Eberron, Stone, the Wild
Red Hand of Doom
Savage Species
Serpent Kingdoms
Shining South
Unapproachable East
The Forge of War
Underdark
Unearthed Arcana


Edit: Are the halfogre race and the feral template good for being LA+1?

[bean illus]

What kind of barbarian? Front line raging ubercharger?

[Trandir]

What kind of barbarian? Front line raging ubercharger?

That works

[Wildstag]

For doing the greatest amount of damage on a single attack, while still being able to do tremendous damage, while keeping to an LA +1, I would suggest that a Goliath Barbarian (substitution level woo!) with a Large two-handed weapon would be your best bet.

When raging, and with an 18 pre-racial, your Rage-Strength would be 28, for a +9 modifier. With a Large Greatsword, you deal 3d6+13 damage. From here you have a choice from two feats that will give you the same damage bonus. At level 1, take Lion Totem in exchange for Fast Movement and start building your uber-charger.

Power Attack is what it is. At level 1, the max damage you get is +2. With your greatsword, you deal 3d6+15. Reckless Rage is the other feat. While raging, it provides an additional +2 Strength and Constitution but you take an additional -2 to AC. With it, your Rage-Strength is 30, for a +10 modifier. With a Large Greatsword, your damage is 3d6+15, but instead of a -1 to hit, you take a -2 to AC. Pick your poison.

Shame about the "no feat for flaw" bit, that kinda ruins the whole point of them. However, with one, you could take both feats for a charge that'll look something like this (in a statblock): Charge +12 (3d6+17). There's not too much you fight at 1st level that survives a swing for 27 damage. The damage range is 20-35.

As for your point buy, a stat-spread of Strength 18; Dexterity 10; Constitution 11; Intelligence 8; Wisdom 10; Charisma 8 is possible, keeping you from having a Reflex or Will save penalty and giving you enough Constitution for Reckless Rage.

Anyway, that's how I'd optimize a first level barbarian. I'm willing to bet there's a stronger option out there though.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

snip

All good, but I'd also throw in Whirling Frenzy from Unearthed Arcana. -2 to hit, but more than makes up for it by giving you an extra attack on a full-attack (and thus when charging, because you've got Pounce).

At 2nd level, I'd also grab Wolf Totem variant from Unearthed Arcana for a free Improved Trip. Your absurd strength and size buttons make you very likely to succeed on trip attempts, and Improved Trip then gives you a free attack against the tripped foe, adding some crowd control to your ubercharging if you want. It also sets you up for Knock-Down later down the line, which theoretically doubles your damage by letting you hit, trip, then hit again with each attack.

From there it's your choice if you want to take Knock-Down at 3rd or start working on the prerequisites for Shock Trooper.

[Trandir]

Are the halfogre race and the feral template good for being LA+1?

[bean illus]

Are the halfogre race and the feral template good for being LA+1?

Yes.
You might consider some multiclass for feats or goodies. Combat reflexes and snap kick come to mind.

[Trandir]

Yes.
You might consider some multiclass for feats or goodies. Combat reflexes and snap kick come to mind.

I don't think I'll have enough dex to make combat reflexes worthwhile with a mere point buy 25 and snap kick is from tome of battle

[Wildstag]

Yes.
You might consider some multiclass for feats or goodies. Combat reflexes and snap kick come to mind.

Might be hard for a starting level of 1...


All good, but I'd also throw in Whirling Frenzy from Unearthed Arcana. -2 to hit, but more than makes up for it by giving you an extra attack on a full-attack (and thus when charging, because you've got Pounce).

Ah, but I don't think you can get Mountain Rage with it, nor can you get Reckless Rage, which means you lose out on the +2 bonus on attack rolls and +3 damage bonus. You'd have to take Whirling Frenzy instead of that, but with a 26 Strength (+8 atk; +12 damage), you're likely to hit both attacks anyway, for 6d6+24, which is a fair bit higher than my 3d6+15.


Are the halfogre race and the feral template good for being LA+1?

What sourcebook are you using where Half-Ogre is +1 LA? It's +2 in Races of Destiny. Edit: Ah, Races of Ansalon has a Half-Ogre for +1 LA. Interesting. I guess if you don't mind more min for your max.

Alternatively, you could go Draconic (template) Orc, for a racial bonus of +6 to Strength, +2 Constitution, -2 Intelligence and Wisdom. After racials, you'd have a 24 to Strength, which would bump up to a 28 with Whirling Frenzy. You wouldn't be able to use Large weapons at level 1 though, which is easily worth it for the average of 3 damage more... However, with Lion Totem and Whirling Frenzy, you'd have two attacks on a charge with a +9 to hit and 2d6+13 damage each. 4d6+26 is a fair bit lower than a Goliath with the same class feature options can take, but then you'd gain natural armor, claw attacks, +4 to sleep and paralysis saves, and a +2 bonus to Intimidate and Spot. The former of those skill bonuses is pretty nice for a Barbarian.

[Trandir]

What sourcebook are you using where Half-Ogre is +1 LA? It's +2 in Races of Destiny. Edit: Ah, Races of Ansalon has a Half-Ogre for +1 LA. Interesting. I guess if you don't mind more min for your max.

Alternatively, you could go Draconic (template) Orc, for a racial bonus of +6 to Strength, +2 Constitution, -2 Intelligence and Wisdom. After racials, you'd have a 24 to Strength, which would bump up to a 28 with Whirling Frenzy. You wouldn't be able to use Large weapons at level 1 though, which is easily worth it for the average of 3 damage more... However, with Lion Totem and Whirling Frenzy, you'd have two attacks on a charge with a +9 to hit and 2d6+13 damage each. 4d6+26 is a fair bit lower than a Goliath with the same class feature options can take, but then you'd gain natural armor, claw attacks, +4 to sleep and paralysis saves, and a +2 bonus to Intimidate and Spot. The former of those skill bonuses is pretty nice for a Barbarian.

Well I was looking at the savage species one, which is similar.

The draconic is indeed intresting, slap +6 total stats on top of anything. Also a draconic water orc might get the bonuses to Str +6, Con +4, Int -2, Wis -4. Not sure if it's worth the trade but it's there.
And I don't care about the single best. Both of those numbers would probably handle anything a resonable DM should throw on our way for a couple of levels.

[Wildstag]

The Savage Species Half-Ogre is a weird case, since it's literally the exact same as the Races of Destiny version, but the latter is a more 3.5 updated race, right down to the text saying "Half-ogres are creatures with the giant type" instead of the clunkier "For all special abilities and effects, a half-ogre is considered a giant". I guess you could hide that from the GM, but it'd be a hard sell for me. Plus, as I understand it, 3.5 instance trumps 3.0.

[Trandir]

The Savage Species Half-Ogre is a weird case, since it's literally the exact same as the Races of Destiny version, but the latter is a more 3.5 updated race, right down to the text saying "Half-ogres are creatures with the giant type" instead of the clunkier "For all special abilities and effects, a half-ogre is considered a giant". I guess you could hide that from the GM, but it'd be a hard sell for me. Plus, as I understand it, 3.5 instance trumps 3.0.

Yup I completely missed the RoD reprint

[Maat Mons]

From your earlier thread, I got the impression that the +1 LA wasn't actually free. What I mean is, if you took the DM up on the offer to start with 1 class level and +1 LA, I thought he planned to treat you as a 2nd-level character for determining XP (as normal for level adjustment). Conversely, if you chose the other option, starting with 1 class level and +0 LA, you would be a 1st-level character (for all purposes, including XP), and would thus catch up to the other part members in class levels over time.

For a 1st-level Barbarian, I feel that the Extra Rage feat (Complete Warrior, page 98) is quite nice. Normally, at 1st-level, you can only use Rage, your signature ability, 1/day. With the Extra Rage feat, that goes up to 3/day, which would probably allow you to use it in most encounters.

If you decide to go for the +1 LA, the Lolth-Touched template (Monster Manual IV, page 93) gives +6 Str and +6 Con. It would be a good thematic fit with Lesser Drow (Player's Guide to Faerun, page 191). Alternately, the Mineral Warrior template (Underdark, page 96) gives DR 8/adamantine, which makes the attacks of quite a few low-level enemies trivial.

If you want to go ubercharger or whatever, I suggest multiclassing with Fighter later.

[Doctor Awkward]

The Furious weapon enhancement from the Oriental Adventures book is meant to improve your range ability by one step-- from normal rage +4 Str/+4 Con, +2 Will saves to Greater Rage (+6/+6/+3), or from Greater Rage to Mighty Rage (+8/+8/+4).

However, due to the specific wording of the ability, which reads: "A furious weapon enhances the rage of a character with that class ability... When raging and wielding the furious weapon, the bonuses granted by the rage increase to +6 Strength, +6 Constitution, and +3 on Will saves." There is a questionable interpretation that it can be used to grant classes with variant rage bonuses you would not normally have. For instance, a barbarian with the Whirling Frenzy variant would get both the benefits of that (extra attack, +2 to reflex saves and dodge bonus to AC) as well as +6 Strength/Con and +3 to will saves.

[Gorthawar]

I don't think I'll have enough dex to make combat reflexes worthwhile with a mere point buy 25 and snap kick is from tome of battle
If you change your mind on this I quite like the blooded one template from unearthed arcana which gives combat reflexes amongst bonuses to str and con.