Homebrew Spell Feedback please: Illusion Cantrip

[Menson]

My spell on D&D Beyond had a -1 rating, but I'm not sure why. Is it too overpowered? UNDERpowered? I've been playing with the spell for a while and if anything, results show it to be more underpowered, but I'd really like to know what you guys think. Hold nothing back!

Level: Cantrip
Casting Time: 1 Action
Range: 15 ft
Components: V, S, M *
Duration: 1 Minute
School: Illusion
Save: INT Save
Damage: Psychic

Pantomiming with your weapon, you create the illusion of a vicious attack. The target creature must succeed on an Intelligence saving throw against your spell save DC, as it bleeds from illusory wounds.

On a failed save, roll 1d12. If the target's total remaining hit points is equal to or less than the total, it falls unconscious for the spell's duration. If the creature's remaining hit points is greater than the total, it takes half the total rolled in psychic damage.

On a successful save, the target realizes that the wounds are illusory, and takes no damage.

This spell's effect increases by 1d12 when you reach 5th level (2d12), 11th level (3d12), and 17th level (4d12).

[nickl_2000]

It's overly complicated, with saves, partial damage. Plus a 15 foot range doesn't make a whole lot of sense when you are making people think they are being attacked by a weapon. Also, there is a material component, but no definition of what it is.

Simplify, make it actual psychic damage (1d8 should be fine) and add the unconcious rider as a bonus. Fix the range, and define the material component and you should be fine.

[JNAProductions]

This is either moderately good (facing a bunch of mooks who can easily be one-shot by it) or completely useless (any other situation).

In other words... Not so hot. I'd second the notion to just make it a psychic damage cantrip.

[Segev]

I'd suggest something more like this:

Illusory Attack
Illusion Cantrip
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 30 feet
Components: S
Duration: Instantaneous

With a flourish as if wielding a weapon, you cause a creature that can see you of which you are aware within 30 feet to perceive you as using a weapon with appropriate range or reach to strike them. They must make an Intelligence saving throw. On a successful save, they take no damage. On a failed save, they take 1d6 psychic damage. If they are reduced to 0 hp by this spell, they are automatically stable, and not dead or dying.

The damage done by this spell increases to 2d6 at 5th level, 3d6 at 11th level, and 4d6 at 17th level.


Illusory Weapon
1st level Illusion
Casting Time: 1 bonus action
Range: personal
Components: S
Duration: Concentration, up to 1 minute

Pantomiming drawing a weapon, an illusory version of it appears in your hand. It can be any weapon you like, and uses the range and reach statistics thereof. You are proficient with this weapon, and never suffer Disadvantage on attack rolls with it. It deals 1d6 plus your spellcasting modifier points of psychic damage on a successful strike. Once per turn, instead of attacking, you may declare a lethal blow. The target makes an Intelligence saving throw. On a success, it sees through the illusory nature of your weapon and is immune to further damage from this spell. On a failure, if the target has fewer hit points than double your maximum damage with this weapon, he falls unconscious for the remaining duration of the spell. Otherwise, he takes psychic damage as normal for a successful hit.

At higher levels. When cast using a 2nd level or higher spell slot, the weapon deals an additional 1d6 points of psychic damage for every level above 1st.

[JNAProductions]

I'd make the cantrip do 1d8 per tier. While psychic is a good damage type, usually, its short range and lack of generally useful rider means it can easily be better in the damage department.

[Menson]

Simplify, make it actual psychic damage (1d8 should be fine) and add the unconcious rider as a bonus. Fix the range, and define the material component and you should be fine.

Are you saying it should be INT save vs 1d8 psychic and unconscious at a 5ft range? That sounds crazy OP....

INT saves have the best chance for success, Psychic damage is rarely resisted. If it were just 1d8 damage, I'd have a hard time looking at my DM with a straight face.

I do want a spell that could knock out a commoner or town guard without hurting them while still being able to do something productive against tougher foes.

The material component is the dagger used to make the attack. 5ft range is a bit scary. This is a spell for wizards, afterall.

[nickl_2000]

Are you saying it should be INT save vs 1d8 psychic and unconscious at a 5ft range? That sounds crazy OP....

INT saves have the best chance for success, Psychic damage is rarely resisted. If it were just 1d8 damage, I'd have a hard time looking at my DM with a straight face.

I do want a spell that could knock out a commoner or town guard without hurting them while still being able to do something productive against tougher foes.

The material component is the dagger used to make the attack. 5ft range is a bit scary. This is a spell for wizards, afterall.

The unconcious is only when you would kill someone, so your rider isn't really all that great. So, effectively you are looking at psychic damage as a cantrip. Fluff it as you are faking that you are throwing the dagger, the range is 20 (first range incrimant of a dagger) and make it a d8 with int save to resist. Yes, its rarely resisted, but the range sucks.

Sacred Flame does 1d8 with a better range and a better rider, toll the dead does even more damage at a further range. I don't think this is out of the realm, but if you do the go with a d6

[Menson]

I see... thanks for the feedback. I'll think about all that and rewrite something better.

[Menson]

I took another look at the spells I'm using to compare damage and effects.

I discovered that a Tier 2 Cantrip deals about 80% of a comparable level 1 spell pretty consistently.
Chromatic Orb vs T2 Fire Bolt = 13.5 to 11 (81%)
Thunderwave vs T2 Thunderclap = 9 to 7 (78%)

So Sleep (22.5) x 80% = 18 (4d8 @ T2)
Leveled spells should always have some advantage over lower levels, and if everything else was equal, a single target cantrip Sleep would affect 2d8 per tier. To add half psychic damage on a fail, I should reduce the range and add a save (INT). This makes it more on par with other damage Cantrips. I already have a reliable long range damage cantrip, so I don't need a lot of range. 20ft is probably the most I'd feel right with. 5ft is too close.

The situations I imagine this being useful in would be neutralizing Lawful Good guards without killing them, or convincing a bad guy I'm on their side by "killing" a noncombatant, or keeping the last creature in a fight alive for questioning. Now to get the flavor right with the mechanics. I'm not that concerned about it being too complicated. I know how it works: Save, roll, check hp, unconscious or math+damage.


New Name
Illusion Cantrip
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 20ft
Components: V, S
Duration: 1 minute
An illusory dagger forms in your hand as you attack a creature pantomime a vicious attack. The illusion of pain and grievous wounds that appear convince the creature of their own demise. Roll 2d8; if the creature's current hit points is equal to or less than the total, it falls unconscious. If not, the creature takes half the total rounded down in psychic damage.

A creature that succeeds on an Intelligence saving throw recognizes the effect is an illusion and is unaffected. Undead and creatures immune to being charmed automatically pass this saving throw.

This spell affects an additional 2d8 when you reach 5th level (4d8), 11th level (6d8), and 17th level (8d8).

[Segev]

Still awfully complicated, especially for a cantrip. The attack roll AND the save make it already undesirable, and having it do half damage, not on a save, but if they have more hp than the damage rolled, means that you're almost always calculating half the damage.

For a Cantrip, it should EITHER do psychic damage, OR have the potential KO effect. Personally, I'd make it an Intelligence save or take 1d8 psychic damage, and auto-stabilize if this puts them at 0 hp.

[Menson]

Still awfully complicated, especially for a cantrip. The attack roll AND the save make it already undesirable, and having it do half damage, not on a save, but if they have more hp than the damage rolled, means that you're almost always calculating half the damage.

For a Cantrip, it should EITHER do psychic damage, OR have the potential KO effect. Personally, I'd make it an Intelligence save or take 1d8 psychic damage, and auto-stabilize if this puts them at 0 hp.

Whoa, no Attack roll there.... just INT save or they think they're bleeding out. Oh, I see... "as you attack a creature."

The main purpose is the KO effect, not the damage (see Vicious Mockery for a primary rider effect). Lots of spells have conditional effects (Toll the Dead, check current hp), and calculating half damage is almost every other damage spell in the game. But should I take out the damage part just to make it simpler?

[Segev]

“Choose a target that can see you. The target must make an intelligence save or take 1d4 psychic damage. It this brings him to 4 or fewer hit points, he falls unconscious until he regains at least one hit point or one minute passes.”

I worry the duration is too good, but it’s basically just a very strong thing at low level.

Others may have better analysis.

[Menson]

Okay, I've been playing with this spell in an ongoing campaign and it really had a big impact on a fight with a bunch of gnolls... maybe too big, as their max hp (22) was just above the average hp affected (18). The range was too "safe" and the duration too long, and made the rogue too happy.

So, now that I have a new perspective, I'm resurrecting this thread to rebalance it. :smallbiggrin:



Illusive Wounds
Illusion Cantrip
Casting Time: 1 Action
Range: 5ft
Components: V, S
Duration: 1 Round
Attack/Save: INT Save

You unleash a vicious attack with an illusory dagger at a creature you can see within range. If the target can see you, it must make an Intelligence saving throw or believe it has suffered a mortal wound. If it fails, roll 2d8. If the target's current hit points are equal to or less than the total, it falls unconscious until the end of your next turn.

Undead and creatures immune to being charmed aren't affected by this spell.

This spell affects an additional 2d8 when you reach 5th level (4d8), 11th level (6d8), and 17th level (8d8).


Inspired by: Sleep, Vicious Mockery
https://www.dndbeyond.com/spells/857060-illusive-wounds

I would love feedback on dndbeyond, too, so if you like it, give it a thumbs up.

[Segev]

Okay, I've been playing with this spell in an ongoing campaign and it really had a big impact on a fight with a bunch of gnolls... maybe too big, as their max hp (22) was just above the average hp affected (18). The range was too "safe" and the duration too long, and made the rogue too happy.

So, now that I have a new perspective, I'm resurrecting this thread to rebalance it. :smallbiggrin:



Inspired by: Sleep, Vicious Mockery
https://www.dndbeyond.com/spells/857060-illusive-wounds

I would love feedback on dndbeyond, too, so if you like it, give it a thumbs up.

Better, cleaner structure. I worry that 2d8 is going to be way overpowered at level 1, though. That's going to be a one-hit kill more reliably than any other cantrip when a lot of critters are sporting 11 hp or so. Not 50% of the time, obviously, but still very frequently. The nonlethality is nothing but a boon, too, since you can always finish them off while they sleep if you want them dead. Sleep works because it has a limited resource.

I like what you're trying to do here. It's just really, really tricky to balance.

Rereading it, the duration is a good balance point, I think. I'd make it "until the end of its next turn," rather than "your next turn," and remove the "immunity to being charmed" clause and add a clause that taking damage wakes it up early. This still denies it actions (even getting up from prone) under most circumstances, but makes attacking it (while prone and incapacitated, so for an auto-crit if it hits, I believe) give it back its turn (still having to get up from prone). I'd replace the "immunity to being charmed" with "elves and other creatures that cannot be made to sleep."

[Menson]

Rereading it, the duration is a good balance point, I think. I'd make it "until the end of its next turn," rather than "your next turn," and remove the "immunity to being charmed" clause and add a clause that taking damage wakes it up early. This still denies it actions (even getting up from prone) under most circumstances, but makes attacking it (while prone and incapacitated, so for an auto-crit if it hits, I believe) give it back its turn (still having to get up from prone). I'd replace the "immunity to being charmed" with "elves and other creatures that cannot be made to sleep."

Thank you.

I like your suggestion to make it "until the end of its next turn."
I have worried that adding the damage clause would make it too complicated again, but I can see that it may be necessary.
The immunity to charm was to give immunity to constructs and the like, but your line about "creatures that cannot be made to sleep" would cover that.


You unleash a vicious attack with an illusory dagger at a creature you can see within range. If the target can see you, it must make an Intelligence saving throw or believe it has suffered a mortal wound. If it fails, roll 2d8. If the target's current hit points are equal to or less than the total, it falls unconscious until the end of its next turn, when it takes damage, or when another creature uses an action to awaken it.

Undead and creatures that cannot be made to sleep aren't affected by this spell.


Is it just me or is this getting clumsy again?

[Segev]

Thank you.

I like your suggestion to make it "until the end of its next turn."
I have worried that adding the damage clause would make it too complicated again, but I can see that it may be necessary.
The immunity to charm was to give immunity to constructs and the like, but your line about "creatures that cannot be made to sleep" would cover that.



Is it just me or is this getting clumsy again?

Nah, that's perfectly fine as a cantrip. Compare to toll the dead, which has a secondary clause about taking more damage if already damaged. What made it complicated before was all the steps in the resolution. This is still just a save, a 'damage roll,' and it works or doesn't.

I'm not sure, as I write this and have this thought, that a save is necessary, even. On the one hand, it has two chances (with a save) of doing nothing. On the other, it probably is overpowered to give creatures with very low hp only the hope that the caster rolls particularly low on his "damage roll" to avoid being affected. Maybe if it was 1d12 instead of 2d8 (and went up by 1d12 with each upgrade), it could avoid needing the save? That's the kind of fiddly balance that requires playtesting, I think.

On the other hand, I like that it's an intelligence save. Thematically. But I think striving for fewer rolls is good if you can balance it.

But to reiterate: as written (with your update), I don't think it's too clumsy, no.