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Mrark
2020-03-22, 08:04 PM
Hi everyone! The DM I played a long campaign with, finishing it in a spectacular way, decided to use the same world we played the last campaign in, just a century or so later. Technology developed, new spells were discovered, along with answers to what could be considered "too much" before. In practical talking, the DM told us that all the optimised build that were banned, are now free for use. Still note that all the campaign-ending combos or tricks (plans who can give you infinite downtime, wishes combos or dirty cheeses like that) are still not allowed.

That being said, we are starting at level 1, and will probably go up to level 20 (maybe even more??), so what I am looking for is a level 1-20 build for an arcane spellcaster, with feats included, and maybe some hints on strategies and spells.

I'd like to point out that nobody in our group wanna ruin the game, yet we really trust our DM (I think he is really good in doing what he does, especially when it comes down to nerfs, maths and similar applied to the game), and if he says we can optimise, we are going to trust him.

Thanks in advance for any advice, don't be scared to be too cheesy, anything would be useful! If it's actually too much I'll tell you, but there's no problem about that.

Kalkra
2020-03-22, 08:28 PM
What sourcebooks, and is Dragon allowed?

That being said, the classic Shadowcraft Mage build is pretty strong, even if your GM says that Arcane Disciple type things don't work, and it only gets better the more stuff you have access to.

It may require you to be a gnome, though. Did you have a particular race in mind?

I'm not gonna post a full build until I know a bit more of how much you can get away with.

Rebel7284
2020-03-22, 08:33 PM
I mean, Wizard 5/Incantatrix 10/Whatever 5 is always a silly, silly build.

Some feat suggestions:
Iron Will: can be obtained for 3000gp from a magical location.
Item Familiar: allows you to easily succeed on those Spellcraft checks
Extend Spell, Persistent Spell, Chain Spell, Quicken Spell: Your spells are better
Craft Contingent Spell: 1 Contingency/Caster Level.... that you can share with your party.
Uncanny Forethought: Int mod times/day spontaneous spells.
Mark of the Dauntless: become immune to daze -> Celerity has no drawback. Maybe take twin spell with your celerity too. Not sure how all the dragonmark stuff works honestly.

edit: Shadowcraft Mage is something I thought about, but it does require a lot of conversation with the DM. For example:
- Can a wizard chose to not disbelief his own illusions even though she knows they are not real.
- What does an 80% real contingency mean?
- etc.

PoeticallyPsyco
2020-03-22, 09:01 PM
Not a Wizard, but Dread Necromancer 8/ Dread Witch 4/ Dread Necromancer +8, or Dread Necromancer 6/ Dread Witch 5/ Dread Necromancer +9 are both great builds for fear debuffing + minions, and stronger at lower level than wizards. Noteworthy for being able to ignore immunity to fear, letting you debuff things like undead that would normally be outside the scope of your tricks.

First feat probably wants to be Tomb Tainted Soul, giving you infinite out of combat self-healing, though if you plan to take the Necropolitan template later you might want to skip this, as being undead renders it redundant. After that, you want Fell Frighten, Fell Animate, and Fell Drain. The Corpsecrafter line of feats are also nice, but don't stack completely with your class features, so you may or may not want to invest in them. Invisible Spell also has the potential to be a lot of fun. See if you can get your hands on a Slaymate.

Kelgore's grave mist is the spell you want for your first Advanced Learning; it's a fantastic vehicle for delivering metamagic effects (mainly Fell Frighten), and a little bit of cold resistance can make your allies immune (and undead are automatically immune, making your animated minions safe by default).

Basically, your modus operandi is to layer on fear effects, escalating your opponents from shaken (a nice debuff all on its own) to frightened (which cripples their ability to fight) to panicked (which ends the encounter). If you can surround them while panicked, they start cowering, which is basically a win condition, because they will remain helpless and inactive no matter what you do to them. An army of undead at your beck and call means you'll always have options even when fear can't get the job done, and gives you plenty to do out of combat. Plus, you also have access to all the spells on your list at all times, giving you some nice extra flexibility.

Quertus
2020-03-22, 09:59 PM
Others have already mentioned my 1st thought of Incantrix; here's a few other thoughts:

I've had 2 big problems with dedicated Blaster / Mailman builds: lack of staying power, and Evasion. I've found that a single level (if you can keep it to that) of Tainted Sorcerer can solve both problems. Kinda tanks your will save, though.

Supposedly, there's some sort of ghost class that gives you most everything you need to be a ghost in its first level. Why struggle with the limitations of a Wizard's body if you don't have to?

Dark Whisper Gnome Rogue, with Acorn of Far Travel from plane timeless with respect to magic. Keep whatever dwoemers you want, forever. Use those dwoemers to buff Hide & Move Silently to insane levels, and just Sleight of Hand steal everything. Or Sneak Attack for mass damage, with your buffed combat scores. Defenses - from Stone Skin to Lesser Vigor to Mind Blank to Energy Immunity - last forever, so no need to spend money on most items. Buy a Ring of Spell Storing, use it to get self-only spells - like Divine Power - cast on you. (Or just buy scrolls - it may be cheaper).

If you actually invest in scrolls, protect your investment with Contingency, Continent Teleport, Elminster's Evasion, etc, plus Spell Blades for Mordenkainen's Disjunction etc.

Buy random Eternal Wands to enhance your toolkit. Use shenanigans to maximize the range of wands that can be arcane.

No infinite combos, you can scale the power of the build to balance to the table, and lots of options for what to do. Not actually a Wizard… but, with enough wands, often plays like one.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2020-03-22, 11:58 PM
Here's my favorite build, which doubles as the party's trapmonkey:

Illumian (Krau/anything), Beguiler 1/ Wizard 4/ Ultimate Magus 10/ Anything that advances Wizard 5. You'll need two flaws for two extra feats. Start with Versatile Spellcaster, Able Learner, and any metamagic feat, pick up Practiced Spellcaster: Beguiler at 3rd, and the rest of the feats can be whatever you want. Specialize in Conjuration with Wizard, trade your familiar for Abrupt Jaunt in PH2 and Scribe Scroll for Improved Initiative (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wizard), prohibited schools should be Enchantment and Evocation.

Your last five levels can include just about anything that advances your Wizard spellcasting. Put a fifth Wizard level in there for spontaneous divination or a domain power if you want. Grab a single level of Mindbender for telepathy if you're not good-aligned. Archmage could be useful but probably isn't worth it, Paragnostic Apostle may be worth a level or two depending on what you want. Spend some gold to say you visited the Otyugh Hole during downtime to get Iron Will without spending a feat on it, and include four levels of Incantatrix (the additional prohibited school can be applied to your Beguiler spellcasting).

Good metamagic feats to take on this include Invisible Spell, Sculpt Spell, Extend Spell, and Quicken Spell. Other good feats to pick would be Obtain Familiar + Improved Familiar for an Imp or Quasit, Leadership and Item Familiar (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/itemFamiliars.htm) are generally always worth taking, Mindsight if you get a Mindbender dip in those last five levels, Metamagic School Focus, reserve feats, etc.

Between Practiced Spellcaster: Beguiler and the Krau sigil, your caster level in both classes will be equal at every level that Ultimate Magus only advances one class, so always make it advance your Wizard spellcasting. At level 15 you'll have Wizard 14 and Beguiler 8 spellcasting, your Wizard caster level will be 14 (levels) +1 (Krau, maxes out at character level) +4 (Ultimate Magus), and your Beguiler caster level will be 8 (levels) +6 (Practiced Spellcaster + Krau) +4 (Ultimate Magus). For the rest of your career beyond that your Beguiler caster level won't increase, but your Wizard caster level will always be four higher than your character level.


An alternate build goes Beguiler 1/ Spellthief 1/ Wizard 3/ Ultimate Magus 10/ advance Wizard casting 5, with Master Spellthief instead of Practiced Spellcaster, and you don't need the Krau sigil or even the Illumian race (but you still need to have the human subtype for Able Learner). This one is a little tricky as you'll need to start out Beguiler 1/ Wizard 1/ Spellthief 1 in that order, and take Master Spellthief at 3rd level, which requires being able to cast 2nd level spells. Versatile Spellcaster has a lot of DM interpretation available to it, but it should be able to get that done for you, but it may require also taking Heighten Spell. This build ends up with an absurd caster level, as it adds your effective level in each class for spells/day that UM advances to determine your base caster level in each class, then adds Arcane Spell Power from UM afterward. So at level 15, you'll have Beguiler 8 and Wizard 13 spellcasting, plus one Spellthief level, for a total caster level in each class of 8 (beguiler level) + 13 (wizard level) +1 (spellthief level) +4 (UM) = 26, at level 15. This version is a bit too much for most groups, so I don't recommend it.

Asmotherion
2020-03-23, 05:07 AM
I mean, Wizard 5/Incantatrix 10/Whatever 5 is always a silly, silly build.

Some feat suggestions:
Iron Will: can be obtained for 3000gp from a magical location.
Item Familiar: allows you to easily succeed on those Spellcraft checks
Extend Spell, Persistent Spell, Chain Spell, Quicken Spell: Your spells are better
Craft Contingent Spell: 1 Contingency/Caster Level.... that you can share with your party.
Uncanny Forethought: Int mod times/day spontaneous spells.
Mark of the Dauntless: become immune to daze -> Celerity has no drawback. Maybe take twin spell with your celerity too. Not sure how all the dragonmark stuff works honestly.

edit: Shadowcraft Mage is something I thought about, but it does require a lot of conversation with the DM. For example:
- Can a wizard chose to not disbelief his own illusions even though she knows they are not real.
- What does an 80% real contingency mean?
- etc.

Also, be a Spellscale. One of their rituals gives you 1/2 your level to Spellcraft.

Mrark
2020-03-23, 06:30 AM
What sourcebooks, and is Dragon allowed?

That being said, the classic Shadowcraft Mage build is pretty strong, even if your GM says that Arcane Disciple type things don't work, and it only gets better the more stuff you have access to.

It may require you to be a gnome, though. Did you have a particular race in mind?

I'm not gonna post a full build until I know a bit more of how much you can get away with.

everything is allowed, and I'm open to anything

ThanatosZero
2020-03-23, 12:10 PM
If you do not mind gishes, I recommend you this following build.

Militia Wizard 5/Knight Phantom 10/Abjurant Knight 5

https://dndtools.net/classes/knight-phantom/
https://dndtools.net/feats/players-guide-to-faerun--22/militia--1948/

But if do not wish to invest more than 2 feats for to qualify for prestige classes, you can take Eldritch Knight over Knight Phantom.

In the end you will have 17 BAB and 19/20 Wizard spellcasting, which the former allows you to make better use of Polymorph and Shapeshift, in regards to physical combat.

If Eldritch Knight is too lack luster for you, your DM may allow you to use the Pathfinder version of Eldritch Knight instead, but altered to fit with 3.5e correctly.
https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/core-rulebook/eldritch-knight/

Ason
2020-03-23, 04:32 PM
If Eberron content is allowed, I quite like the changeling wizard build featured in Echodork's Conjurer Handbook. The board it was orginally posted to was taken down, but you can find copies of the guide floating around online. His suggested Conjurer build is great as-is, but I personally suggest this slightly modified version: Focused Conjurer Wizard 3 / Master Specialist 3 / Paragnostic Apostle 2 / Recaster 3 / Thaumaturgist 5 / Recaster 2 / Archmage 2. Here's a breakdown of the classes I recommend...


Focused Conjurer is your wizard specialization because it has a giant variety of powerful, flexible spells and is arguably the best wizard specialty in 3.5. First, take enchantment and evocation as your opposition schools, since your style of play here is god-wizard control/utility (not blasting or save-or-die enchants) and since you can imitate their best spells via conjuration or shadow spells. Second, you're a focused specialist (alternate class feature from PHB2) because that takes you from 2+ level one spells per day at level one (1 specialization + [1 + Int extra spells/day] anything) to 3+ level one spells per day (3 from specialization + [0 + Int extra spells/day] anything). Normally giving up flexibility like that would be crippling, but conjuration is a flexible and powerful enough on its own that it doesn't hurt one bit. Enjoy the 1 extra spell slot per level. Third, you trade away your familiar for the PHB alternate class feature "Immediate Magic: Abrupt Jaunt", which gives you a 10-foot teleport ability as an immediate action, so you can easily jump out of the way of danger. Optionally fourth, if you really want a familiar, you can reacquire one via the Obtain Familiar feat, which has the added perk of now upgrading with character level instead of levels in the wizard class. If you really like familiars, take the Improved Familiar feat, 5 levels in the wizard class, and the level 5 Changeling Wizard racial substitution level for "morphic familiar," which now lets your improved familiar shift into whatever form is most useful at that moment. I personally don't think a that is worth two feats and two levels in wizard, plus you need your level 3 and 6 feats for metamagic to qualify for Recaster, but morphic familiar definitely opens up your toolbox if you can spare the feats/levels for it.
Master Specialist is there because you can enter it at level 4 without cheese, whereas most PrCs can't be entered until level 6. I recommend 3 levels for the two free feats it gives that you'll be wanting regardless. Echodork recommends taking 4, which gives a small boost to your summons' hit points, whereas I propose the next PrC instead. The more subtle advantage here is delaying your Recaster entry to enable the Recaster -> Thaumaturgist trick you'll see in a bit.
Sacred Exorcist gives you turn undead, which enables you to abuse divine metamagic for free metamagic shenanigans. Second, 2 levels in this class delays Recaster enough to let you to enable the following trick, while giving you at-will detect evil and some defensive boosts. Alternatively, you can avoid this PrC and instead take wizard to level 5 for the changeling racial substitution morphic familiar feature. [Edit: Divine metamagic doesn't work on arcane spells, and thoughyou can can still use turn undead to power certain divine feats like divine vigor, I think there are better PrCs at that point]
Paragnostic Apostle delays Recaster to enable the following trick, gives you a poor man's version of bardic knowledge, and offers some helpful boosts (I suggest Penetrating Insight and Mind over Matter). Alternatively, you can avoid this PrC and instead take wizard to level 5 for the changeling racial substitution morphic familiar feature.
Recaster is like a changeling-only variation of Incantatrix, but it has the advantage of adding 2 spells to your spellbook outside the wizard list. If you make lesser planar ally (normally a cleric-only spell) your first extra spell, you qualify for Thaumaturgist. Once you've wrapped up Thaumaturgist, you return to Recaster to make planar ally your second extra spell, which upgrades your current cohort from a CR4 hound archon to a CR14 astral deva. Those two cohorts also can shapeshift, which is a nice pairing with a changeling.
Thaumaturgist further boosts your conjuration spells via abilities and free feats and also gives you an outsider as a cohort, assuming your DM allows cohorts. The cohort ability requires you to summon it via a planar ally spell, which is why I insert this PrC in between Recaster levels to delay the final extra spell that class gives. You could delay Recaster for 2 more levels to set up greater planar ally for your cohort calling, but I think the boost isn't as great as lesser -> normal and thus not worth the delay. If your DM doesn't allow cohorts, don't split up your Recaster levels and take a different choice for your second extra spell.
Archmage is there just because it's a great PrC for endgame casters, but you could just as easily take more levels in Master Specialist, a different PrC of your choice, or more levels in wizard for that shapeshifting familiar substitution level I mentioned. Its mastery of elements and arcane reach abilities are great options, with spell-like ability being a good way to get freebie 9th level spells.

What's nice with this build is that you're fantastic at what you do (conjuration-based battlefield control), are great at lots of other things (you're still a wizard, and conjuration gives you flexibility), and don't hog the spotlight (you control the field so the rest of the party can kill things). Plus you're a changeling, so all that flexibility feeds right into your slippery, elusive nature.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2020-03-23, 04:35 PM
Sacred Exorcist gives you turn undead, which enables you to abuse divine metamagic for free metamagic shenanigans.


Per the Complete Divine errata, Divine Metamagic can only be used on divine spells, not arcane spells. So this hasn't worked for almost as long as the feat has existed.

Ason
2020-03-23, 04:39 PM
Per the Complete Divine errata, Divine Metamagic can only be used on divine spells, not arcane spells. So this hasn't worked for almost as long as the feat has existed.

Oh yeah, I forgot about that. It's been awhile since my 3.5 days. I'll update the build, thanks.

ThanatosZero
2020-03-23, 05:06 PM
Oh yeah, I forgot about that. It's been awhile since my 3.5 days. I'll update the build, thanks.
There is a way to cast arcane spells as divine spells and vice versa with the Southern Magician feat, but it won't allow you to prepare them as divine spells by RAW.
https://dndtools.net/feats/races-of-faerun--23/southern-magician--2683/


Once per day per two spellcaster levels, you can cast a divine spell as an arcane spell, or vice versa. This enables you to bypass arcane spell failure due to armor, or gain additional benefit from spell that functions differently for a divine caster instead of an arcane caster, such as true seeing or magic weapon. Spells changed with this feat are often confusing to whose who haven't studied Mulan magic. Spellcasters who don't have this feat suffer a -4 penalty on attempts to counterspell or dispel this spell, and they must succeed at a caster level check (DC 11 + spell level) to detect the spell with detect magic. The actual source of the spell's power doesn't change, nor does its means of preparation. You are merely weaving the strands of magic together in an unconventional way that makes the spell behave somewhat differently.

However, since your DM allows everything, I recommend to take a look into the 3rd party book Hallowed Arcana with the Hallowed Mage PrC. It is a sublime chord/mystic theurge-like divine spellcasting class, which alters the source of your arcane spellcasting to divine spells at 10th level.
Your CL for your base arcane class, base divine class and Hallowed Mage are determined, by combining their class levels together.
A Cloistered Cleric 5/Wizard 5/Hallowed Mage 10 casts all wizard, archivist and hallowed mage spells with a CL of 20.

Kalkra
2020-03-23, 11:54 PM
However, since your DM allows everything, I recommend to take a look into the 3rd party book Hallowed Arcana with the Hallowed Mage PrC. It is a sublime chord/mystic theurge-like divine spellcasting class, which alters the source of your arcane spellcasting to divine spells at 10th level.
Your CL for your base arcane class, base divine class and Hallowed Mage are determined, by combining their class levels together.
A Cloistered Cleric 5/Wizard 5/Hallowed Mage 10 casts all wizard, archivist and hallowed mage spells with a CL of 20.

If 3rd party stuff is okay, take one level of Metaphysical Spellshaper from the Book which Shall not be Named (Book of Erotic Fantasy) and get some way of preventing/healing ability damage.

Or, go even further and get one rank in Speak High Draconic from Mongoose's Encyclopaedia Arcane - Dragon Magic and metamagic all day every day. Combine with Uncanny Forethought or some other way of getting spontaneous casting and you can be casting 9th-level spells at level 1, (provided you can get them in your spellbook and you can make some pretty high DCs).

In general, a lot of the stuff that came out of Mongoose was pretty abusable. SHD isn't even close to being the worst.

Also, there's the Old Blood feat from Bastards and Bloodlines (also 3rd party) which lets you count as being a gnome if you want to be a Shadowcraft Mage, but you can also use it qualify for Illithid Savant of Beholder Mage. (Some assembly may be required. Void where prohibited.)

If your GM isn't willing to go that far, Sculpt Self from Dragon #304 lets you get permanent abilities by paying xp. Note that it seems to get you actual spellcasting, not SLAs. For best results, use in conjunction with Thought Bottles and/or Restoration. For even better results, when you level up, pay a negligible amount of xp to drop back down, then kill a chicken or something to level back up and get more spells in your spellbook, and possibly some shenanigans with feat retraining and Vow of Poverty. Actually, VoP synergizes pretty well with Sculpt Self.

In your GM isn't even willing to that far, there's also War Magic Study from Dragon #309. It gives you access to much more powerful versions of spells with some hefty downsides which can be completely eliminated by being a Shadowcraft Mage, and partially eliminated by being a Tainted Sorcerer or by casting Wall of Salt a lot, or just by learning Shadow Conjuration. Remember, 20% of 25 fiendish wolves/caster level is still really good.

Also, taking a level of the Ghost savage progression makes you pretty unkillable at early levels, and gives you some free taint, which you can use to get Eldritch Corruption (and Mad Faith, if you can swing the divine spellcasting requirement), which can help qualify for PrCs early. Bonus points if you can buy off the LA.

But that's all gratuitous cheese. You could make do with normal cheese and still be stronger than anybody has any right to be.

King of Nowhere
2020-03-24, 09:28 AM
everything is allowed, and I'm open to anything

i am his DM, and i have to point out that there are still limitations to what is allowed:

1) where magic has a cost, the cost cannot be skipped.
my universe has some kind of laws of thermodinamics applied to magic. one of them is a sort of energy conservation. long story short, if there is an xp cost or expensive material component, it cannot be avoided.

2) no action economy abuse
this is mostly for the sake of simplicity and keeping the turns streamlined. Especially because resources are going to be plentiful for both players and npcs. if everyone has a belt of battle, then everyone is taking two turns instead of 1, and i may as well not have it for everyone.

3) no faster time abuse
there are no demiplanes with fast time where you can go in and exit a second later having done years of research. if there was such a thing, someone else would have used it to conquer the multiverse eons ago. see also 9)

4) some exceptionally broken things that are instantly deadly and allow virtually no defense are still banned. I'm thinking especially of shivering touch, but may apply to other stuff.
one thing is increasing the power level, and another thing entirely is opening the gates to things that should have never been printed

5) caster level abuse is limited by increased cost
skipping the math, if you optimize to get a +20 to caster level, you only end up with +5 or +6.

6) there are some limitations to how much you can decrease the cost of metamagic
connected to 1)

7) heavy minionmancy is strongly frowned upon.
no hard limit there, but again it's mostly for simplicity. if you have 20 minions, you are going to gobble up a lot of table time from your fellow players. unless maybe everyone has 20 minions. but then, we are no longer playing d&d.

8) some things just don't exhist in that campaign world.
if i established previously that a certain monster or race does not exhist in the setting, you can't summon one, or polimorph into one, or... you got the idea.

9) everything that the pcs can do with their build, the npcs can also do.
not exactly a limitation, but stiil. be careful what you wish for: your shiny new toy can and will be used against you.

schreier
2020-03-24, 01:02 PM
Southern magician has issues, but Alternative Source Spell from Dragon would work.

Are you allowing text over table for Rainbow Servant? What about the early entry options (versatile spellcaster, sanctum spell, precocious apprentice)?

ThanatosZero
2020-03-25, 12:18 AM
Southern magician has issues, but Alternative Source Spell from Dragon would work.


Indeed.
A cleric 1/wizard 19 with this metamagic feat can cast all wizard spells prepared as divine spells, but with a reduced caster level of 1 (no change in spell level). As such they would cast for example a divine Horrid Wilting as a 18th level wizard.

And a cloistered cleric 1/wizard 6/sacred exorcist 10/archmage 3 will be able to utilise divine metamagic on their wizard spells, as long they are prepared with Alternative Source Spell.

Segev
2020-03-25, 11:28 AM
One day, I want to play what I consider a proper necromancer. This is a 3.PF build, so mileage may vary on what's allowed. But it's a straight wizard 20 build that gets minions right off the bat (with a little work and RP).

Wizard (Necromancer) for all levels. You can take Arcane Bond as presented, or you can see if the DM will let you trade it for a skeletal minion from variant rules (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/specialistWizardVariants.htm#skeletalMinion) for specialist necromancers. You may also want the +4 enhancement bonus tricks for your undead, though that does cost you your extra spell per spell level per day.

You want Precocious Apprentice: command undead as your primary first level feat. You will use this to hunt down undead and befriend them. Enslaving unintelligent ones and befriending intelligent ones. Amongst other things, you'll want to seek out Slaymates to recruit. These little undead tykes can be found anywhere children are neglected or abused to death, and, if you're particularly evil, you can arrange for it to happen by bribing caregivers into betraying the urchins they care for until one or more of them spontaneously arise.

You want the Slaymates because you're also going to pick up chain spell. With three Slaymates helping you out, their pale auras will make you able to prepare Chain command undead for no slot adjustment, which will let you get 1+CL undead per casting. At first level, that's 2 undead per casting.

It may require a flaw (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm#flawDescriptions) or two as well as being human, but Undead Master (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/undead-master/) is also a feat you want as early as possible. It auto-Extends command undead, and improves your PF Necromancer-granted Command Undead feat while it's at it. At first level, Chain command undead affecting 2 undead for 2 days each is really good. You can keep up to 4 undead controlled just from that alone, which is on top of your ability to Rebuke/Command them. Note that having 3 Slaymates to make Chain work out will consume 3 of those slots.

By level 2, you're controlling 3 undead per casting and the spell lasts 4 days each.

Be friendly and kind to the Slaymates, and even if they save vs. the spell one day, you can probably keep them content and happy to work with you. They are children, so they'll be a handful, but they needn't be hostile to you.

If you've taken two flaws and are human, you still have one more feat at level one. I suggest Fell Animate, though you can get others. With your three Slaymates, you can prepare a Fell Animate bleed that still takes a 0th level slot (so is infinitely castable) that will do one point of damage to a dying creature. If your DM is generous, it bleeding out thereafter counts as you killing the creature with bleed. If not, you just keep casting it, and hope your casting deals the last hit point to kill it. If you succeed, you get a skeleton or zombie out of it that you control without needing any other resources! It goes against your animate dead cap, but you aren't casting animate dead for many, many levels yet.

As for flaws to consider? I recommend Noncombatant and Shakey. -2 to all to-hit rolls is the net result, and means you'll want to focus on your save-inducing spells rather than ranged touch attacks, but will be something you can build around without it being something you can be accused of cheesing something that doesn't affect you. Having to avoid classes of spells to avoid the penalty IS an effect.

Quertus
2020-03-26, 04:52 AM
7) heavy minionmancy is strongly frowned upon.
no hard limit there, but again it's mostly for simplicity. if you have 20 minions, you are going to gobble up a lot of table time from your fellow players. unless maybe everyone has 20 minions. but then, we are no longer playing d&d.

Point of order: if everyone had 20 minions, you would actually be playing D&D again. If you do not have minions, you are no longer playing D&D. D&D was founded on Minionmancy; remove it, as far too many tables do, and you are no longer playing D&D.

(Not that it matters, the D&D Wizard died as of 3e with automatic spell acquisition)

Segev
2020-03-26, 10:05 AM
On making minionmancy not bog things down, the easiest approach (conceptually, and thus to wrap everyone's heads around) is to parcel out your minions to the other players. This doesn't reduce the time so much as it makes the time and attention spread out more evenly. If you have a 4-man party and have 8 skeletons in your little pack of undead, give two skeletons to each of the other players to control. You can even have it be in-character: you ordered your minions to help and obey the other PCs.

A second thing you can do to simplify things is to have mook minions serve simply as flanking buddies, and do nothing but take Aid Another actions to improve AC or to-hit rolls. To cut down on rolling, make the assumption that every 2 skeletons or zombies is 1 successful Aid check, for +2 to hit or to AC. (And, of course, the flanking bonus, if applicable.)

Finally, volley rules let you reduce all your minions that are acting as archers to a single roll, which sets a DC against a Reflex Save for those in the volley area. THough I'd have to dig out Heroes of Battle to get those rules exactly right.

King of Nowhere
2020-03-26, 01:03 PM
Point of order: if everyone had 20 minions, you would actually be playing D&D again. If you do not have minions, you are no longer playing D&D. D&D was founded on Minionmancy; remove it, as far too many tables do, and you are no longer playing D&D.

(Not that it matters, the D&D Wizard died as of 3e with automatic spell acquisition)

yeah, ok, technically the first versions of D&D were basically combat simulators for battles. and it gradually shifted towards having one single character and roleplying it, so you could say it would really be a return to origins.
but really, the point of modern D&D is to have a character and pretend to be that guy and do heroics. which tend to be much less the case when all you do is to send swarms of minions or powerful magical beast against the problem while you're comfortably sitting in another plane sipping drinks.
more importantly, if the wizard has a pit fiend, a solar, and a couple of dragon's simulacra, the fighter has hired a sergeant cohort leading a whole platoon of elite soldiers complete with mid-low level spellcasting support, the cleric always has a cadre of angels sent by his deity to do his bidding, and the rogue bought a high-end special golem with spellcasting powers that can gate in other externals... well, it becomes a nightmare to keep track of things, much less run a single turn. and while i decided to remove a lot of limitations i previously put on powergaming, i do want to keep mechanics from overcomplicating, as much as possible. That's why I opened a thread where i was asking about increasing defences in a way that didn't rely on having a cohort who dispels the dimensional lock to enable his contingency to summon a minion with a SLA to cast a fog cloudif the raven familiar identifies a threat via a spellcraft check and caws. i just wanted to passively beef up defences.
so, a single powerful minion that you aquired via simulacrum and mostly plays a support role is good, or a couple golems that do nothing but basic attacks, or even a large swarm of zombies with the rules suggested by segev to keep things simple (though i run the variant rule that a natural 20 to hit is a 30, it means that you are so beefed up with magical armor and protection that there's no way you'll get his, and so hordes of low level minions are completely ineffective).
as long as you can keep the amount of time you take, and the amount of space taken by your miniatures, within reasonable levels.