Lore Master Sorcerer?

[Nagog]

I've been looking over the Lore Master Wizard UA lately and I'm very attracted to the mechanical and tactical ramifications of the Spell Secrets ability, but overall the class seems overpowered, particularly in light of Prodigious Memory and Master of Magic. With the Class Feature Variants UA introducing a Metamagic ability for adjusting a spell's elemental damage, would it be feasible to houserule a metamagic ability like Spell Secrets?

For those unfamiliar with Lore Master, Spell Secrets allows the Wizard to change the type of save their spells provoke. They also suggest augmenting the spells appearance to reflect how the save changes, with examples like a Str based Fireball being a large chunk of molten rock, or a Con based Charm Person being an alchemical powder blown into the face of the target.

What do you think? Could that be a Metamagic ability, or would it be more befitting a Sorcerer Subclass feature? If the former, how costly would it be?

[MrStabby]

I've been looking over the Lore Master Wizard UA lately and I'm very attracted to the mechanical and tactical ramifications of the Spell Secrets ability, but overall the class seems overpowered, particularly in light of Prodigious Memory and Master of Magic. With the Class Feature Variants UA introducing a Metamagic ability for adjusting a spell's elemental damage, would it be feasible to houserule a metamagic ability like Spell Secrets?

For those unfamiliar with Lore Master, Spell Secrets allows the Wizard to change the type of save their spells provoke. They also suggest augmenting the spells appearance to reflect how the save changes, with examples like a Str based Fireball being a large chunk of molten rock, or a Con based Charm Person being an alchemical powder blown into the face of the target.

What do you think? Could that be a Metamagic ability, or would it be more befitting a Sorcerer Subclass feature? If the former, how costly would it be?

There are many things wrong with the lore wizard. Many things that are just a bit too good... but it is really this ability that is the broken one.

The gulf between a creatures best save and worst is often huge - being able to pick your spell AND your save is just too much. Add to this things like hold person that can be made to no longer allow a save if applied to dex or Str and you can see why.

Furthermore the limitation of sorcerer is their spells known. Finding enough spells that cover different circumstances and different saves is a real challenge. Making every spell count effectively as six different spells, each targeting a different save sidesteps the class weakness.

This would not represent a good ability to port to a sorcerer - if it is costed fairly (say about 8 to 14 SP - or maybe 6+2*spell level) then it is really frustrating to use as it stops you being able to use your class abilities frequently. If it is costed at less than a fair price it makes an already powerful class too powerful.

[Joe the Rat]

Yeah, the save-changer was a bit of a class-breaker. The entire class was essentially "metamagic wizard," with this and element swap being the two new ideas.
Note that the other major trick, changing damage type, did make its way into the class feature UA as a metamagic option.

If you did want to bring this in, making it SP intensive and/or putting a Rest Limiter on it would help on balancing.

[Nagog]

The entire class was essentially "metamagic wizard," with this and element swap being the two new ideas.
Note that the other major trick, changing damage type, did make its way into the class feature UA as a metamagic option.


This is the kind of thing that makes me think that Sorcerers need just such a perk. Despite being UA, the Lore Master subclass shows that WoTC views metamagic (the core and defining feature of the sorcerer class) to be about the same power level as a Wizard subclass ability. Nevermind all the penalties Sorcerers take for having it (Concrete spell list, much fewer slots, much fewer spells known, no equivalent to Arcane Recovery, etc). Having an ability like this, even if it's altered or otherwise adjusted, would give the class the identity and spotlight it so desperately needs. The pseudo-metamagic subclass ability for Lore Master isn't even what got it it's reputation for being overpowered. The metamagic subclass ability (which in some regards wildly outclasses their Metamagic equivalents) is just about on par for a wizard subclass.

So the proposition of making it an affordable metamagic ability (meaning it's not off limits until late Tier 4 and also taps you out of Sorcery Points even at such a late stage of the game) isn't to bring it to par with current metamagic abilities, rather to help bring the Sorcerer class as a whole on par with other spellcasters, particularly the closest comparison, the Wizard.

[AvatarVecna]

Also just conceptually a Lore Master Sorcerer is weird. If you go by name...it's a sorcerer who's an expert in magical theory? That's just a wizard with extra steps. But if you go by what the mechanics do (not specifically, but in general), that could be kinda neat I think. Lore Master gives the wizard a couple of mechanics that they can make use of a few times a day to change a specific aspect of a spell they cast in the moment. I dunno why, but a mechanic like that feels like something a sorcerer should have, you know? :smalltongue:

[Boci]

There are many things wrong with the lore wizard. Many things that are just a bit too good... but it is really this ability that is the broken one.

The gulf between a creatures best save and worst is often huge - being able to pick your spell AND your save is just too much. Add to this things like hold person that can be made to no longer allow a save if applied to dex or Str and you can see why.

i toyed with the idea of making the DC loose proficiency and/or only allowing mental to mental and physical to physical save swaps as a way to balance it. Its still very powerful.

[Nagog]

Also just conceptually a Lore Master Sorcerer is weird. If you go by name...it's a sorcerer who's an expert in magical theory? That's just a wizard with extra steps. But if you go by what the mechanics do (not specifically, but in general), that could be kinda neat I think. Lore Master gives the wizard a couple of mechanics that they can make use of a few times a day to change a specific aspect of a spell they cast in the moment. I dunno why, but a mechanic like that feels like something a sorcerer should have, you know? :smalltongue:

I agree that the flavor of Lore Wizard doesn't fit sorcerers, but the flavor of Lore Wizard is just the base Wizard, but... Smarter? Isn't the point of a Wizard to be the smartest in the room?
In any case, the primal connection to magic that could facilitate adjusting a spell in these ways feels right up the Sorcerer's alley agreed.


i toyed with the idea of making the DC loose proficiency and/or only allowing mental to mental and physical to physical save swaps as a way to balance it. Its still very powerful.

What if you did this, but also limit it to a number of times per day equal to the Cha bonus? Or limit it to spells that only target one creature? basically just to prevent it from being used with extreme regularity, but also not so expensive that you're losing all of your other class abilities to use it once or twice.

[MrStabby]

Dont try and make the sorcerer the same power level as the wizard. The wizard is an outlier in terms of power not the sorcerer. If you want to bring classes in to line in terms of power, change the wizard, not the sorcerer.

[Nagog]

Dont try and make the sorcerer the same power level as the wizard. The wizard is an outlier in terms of power not the sorcerer. If you want to bring classes in to line in terms of power, change the wizard, not the sorcerer.

I believe it was Jeremy Crawford that said something along the line of "It's better to give more than to take away". Buffing the Sorcerer to be on par with literally any other full caster would be a welcome change, even if it isn't to the Wizards level. Wizard is just the easiest one to compare it to as they have similar base class weaknesses (Smallest hit dice, no armor or weapons, relies entirely on spells, etc.)

[AvatarVecna]

In any case, the primal connection to magic that could facilitate adjusting a spell in these ways feels right up the Sorcerer's alley agreed.

I was more making a joke that the Lore Wizard abilities are, from a certain perspective, metamagic wizard gets special access to that sorcerer doesn't. Making a Lore Sorcerer wouldn't be all that difficult - rather than a specific bloodline or heritage or whatever, make them somebody with a history of mages in their family so they have extra knack for direct magic - make a metamagic specialist subclass rather than a bloodline. Give them some extra sorcery points, give them some extra metamagic they can use on spells, and invent a few new choices for them to choose from, and you've got a solid Lore Master Sorcerer.

[MrStabby]

I believe it was Jeremy Crawford that said something along the line of "It's better to give more than to take away". Buffing the Sorcerer to be on par with literally any other full caster would be a welcome change, even if it isn't to the Wizards level. Wizard is just the easiest one to compare it to as they have similar base class weaknesses (Smallest hit dice, no armor or weapons, relies entirely on spells, etc.)

Well firstly, I would say that this isn't always right.

Secondly, if we want to do this then sure,lets give, but lets start with those classes furthest from the wizard in power rather than classes near the top of the curve.

[Sam113097]

Well firstly, I would say that this isn't always right.

Secondly, if we want to do this then sure,lets give, but lets start with those classes furthest from the wizard in power rather than classes near the top of the curve.

Which classes would you say are most in need of such a buff? The general perception appears to be that sorcerer is one of the classes that falls short when compared to the wizard, and is not near the top in class strength.

[MrStabby]

Which classes would you say are most in need of such a buff? The general perception appears to be that sorcerer is one of the classes that falls short when compared to the wizard, and is not near the top in class strength.

Every class falls short of the wizard. Certainly I wouldn't go so far as to say there is a consensus the sorcerer is weak

I would say the top two classes are wizard then bard with sorcerer coming in 3rd. Whilst some might disagree I contend that a well built sorcerer is immensely powerful.

So monk, barbarian, ranger, rogue, cleric, warlock, artificer I would say should be in line for a buff first, at least from level 9 onwards. Druids and paladins are a bit closer to the sorcerer in power and might even outshine the sorcerer in some campaigns/styles.