3.5 ToB - A Question About Stormguard Warrior

[MaxiDuRaritry]

So, I've always thought that the Stormguard Warrior feat from ToB was a bit meh, but I had a thought.

If you have an ability, such as a spell or a racial ability that works on touch attacks, like the hammer power, covering yourself in contact poison (that you're immune to), shivering touch, or chill touch, could you use that to deal damage or ability damage (or instigate some other effect like paralysis or something) using the Combat Rhythm option?

Stormguard Warrior (Combat Rhythm) says: "To use this option, you can choose to make melee touch attacks in place of normal melee attacks against an opponent. These touch attacks deal no damage. For each melee touch attack that hits, you gain a +5 bonus on melee damage rolls against that same foe on your next turn."

The touch attacks themselves deal no damage, but do the riders on the touch attacks work normally? I mean, normal vanilla touch attacks for most player characters don't do anything most of the time, but does the feat override other effects, or do those effects override the wording on the feat?

[OrbanSirgen]

Touch spells would still trigger on touch...

[HammeredWharf]

Yes, those effects would trigger on touch. Similarly, effects like weapon capsules or even Venomfire should also trigger. However, as far as I know there's nothing preventing you from just making touch attacks instead of normal attacks without any feat investment. It's not explicitly mentioned anywhere, though, so it's probably questionable RAW wise.

Stormguard Warrior can be really good if you can combine it with White Raven Tactics and a whole bunch of (probably natural) attacks. Attack an opponent, hit them five times, use WRT, now your attacks do +25 damage. That's 125 damage just from the feat, without using anything risky like an ubercharger or lowering your attack bonus. And getting lots of natural attacks is not a huge deal generally speaking, so five is a pretty conservative estimate.

[Aegis013]

Given the specific language of the feat that says the touch attack must be "in place of normal melee attacks" I would read that to mean you'd have to cast the touch spell, hold the charge, and next time you have melee attacks, you can combat rhythm.

The text on the SRD for holding the charge (below) doesn't explicitly say it discharges as soon as you successfully touch under any conditions, but rather than you can attempt to discharge it again with a touch attack. Given a very strict DM, they may say that you have make a touch attack with the intent of discharging the spell (not combat rhythm) to discharge it, but I'd guess there's plenty of tables where what is being suggested would work.


Holding the Charge

If you don’t discharge the spell in the round when you cast the spell, you can hold the discharge of the spell (hold the charge) indefinitely. You can continue to make touch attacks round after round. You can touch one friend as a standard action or up to six friends as a full-round action. If you touch anything or anyone while holding a charge, even unintentionally, the spell discharges. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates. Alternatively, you may make a normal unarmed attack (or an attack with a natural weapon) while holding a charge. In this case, you aren’t considered armed and you provoke attacks of opportunity as normal for the attack. (If your unarmed attack or natural weapon attack doesn’t provoke attacks of opportunity, neither does this attack.) If the attack hits, you deal normal damage for your unarmed attack or natural weapon and the spell discharges. If the attack misses, you are still holding the charge.

[razorback]

Given the specific language of the feat that says the touch attack must be "in place of normal melee attacks" I would read that to mean you'd have to cast the touch spell, hold the charge, and next time you have melee attacks, you can combat rhythm.


I wonder how this would interact with a 13th level Duskblade.

At 13th level, you can cast any touch spell you know as part of a full attack action, and the spell affects each target you hit in melee combat that round. Doing so discharges the spell at the end of the round, in the case of a touch spell that would otherwise last longer than 1 round.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Given the specific language of the feat that says the touch attack must be "in place of normal melee attacks" I would read that to mean you'd have to cast the touch spell, hold the charge, and next time you have melee attacks, you can combat rhythm.

The text on the SRD for holding the charge (below) doesn't explicitly say it discharges as soon as you successfully touch under any conditions, but rather than you can attempt to discharge it again with a touch attack. Given a very strict DM, they may say that you have make a touch attack with the intent of discharging the spell (not combat rhythm) to discharge it, but I'd guess there's plenty of tables where what is being suggested would work.I don't really think a strict DM could say that without houseruling. I noticed in your quote that it says:


If you touch anything or anyone while holding a charge, even unintentionally, the spell discharges.

Under any circumstances that don't explicitly say that no damage is dealt (such as with Combat Rhythm), said DM wouldn't have a leg to stand on.

The feat, however, has that one niggling bit that I was a bit concerned over.

[Telonius]

It would have to be something that's always on, or easily resetting; otherwise the poison is delivered with one touch. Touch of Golden Ice, maybe? The Fort save is pitiful, but with enough attacks the target will roll a 1 eventually.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

It would have to be something that's always on, or easily resetting; otherwise the poison is delivered with one touch. Touch of Golden Ice, maybe? The Fort save is pitiful, but with enough attacks the target will roll a 1 eventually.Poison over your entire body (for a humanoid-shaped critter) would give you two punches, two kicks, two elbows, two clotheslines, two knees, two shoulder-slams, two hip-checks, a headbutt, at least one body slam, and one Mario-esque ground-pound (aka, butt-stomp or cannonball). And that's assuming only one dose of contact poison is delivered per hit, and only one dose can be on one body part at a time. I'm pretty sure there should be more than one dose's worth of exposure for, say, a grapple, wouldn't you?

[daremetoidareyo]

That monk feat where you can punch a turn undead (sun soul monk) might let you add that +5 to a turning damage roll

[Kayblis]

Stormguard Warrior is underrated. It's a good feat, becomes truly amazing with a TWF build, and if you're one of those mad lads that go Multiweapon Fighting it's just too much.

The key is not just trading in all your attacks. At mid-high levels, you have an iterative with a -10. Maybe one at -15. That's a LOT of penalty, even against big creatures. This feat turns hits that are unlikely to hit into almost sure-fire damage boosts for the next round, and the more attacks you have, the better. If you have Haste, Flurry of Blows, or any other common effect for more attacks, it scales faster. Most of the time it's statistically a net gain to not bet on that 5% chance of a nat 20.

That's also ignoring the potential for AoO generators like Robilar's Gambit and Karmic Strike. Trade in your low attacks, don't take an AoO or two, and suddenly all your iteratives next round hit, and hit like a truck.

If you want any extra AC and has Combat Reflexes, the feat is also a -2 to-hit for a +4 to AC. Truly a versatile package.

Edit: Also, yes, any contact effect would work with the touch attacks. This is not a property of Stormguard Warrior, it's a property of Contact poisons and touch effects. Nothing in the feat overrides the fact that the touch attacks are touch attacks.

[Manyasone]

In combination with "Avalanche Of Blades" it becomes quickly a damage charging combination. Add the ToB discipline enchantment that adds bonus to hit and it can become really ridiculous...but really awesome. Finish them off with a "Ruby/Diamond Nightmare Blade" for splatterfest

[Gruftzwerg]

Combat Rhythm and touch spells works only to some degree, since it needs to turn normal attacks into touch attacks and it doesn't say that all your touch attacks profit from it. So you can't activate it in the turn when you cast the touch spell, cause in that round you are limited to a touch attack. You would have to wait for the next round to activate the combo.

Well, we have ways to turn touch spells into regular attacks. Just pick one if you want.

Imho, the best options are buffs that have duration or are passive, like Shivering Touch which has a duration, and thus you could abuse it better with full attacks on later rounds.

Or get it on a Fleshraker (Wild Shape, Animal Companion) or something with a similar ability (think about special undead touch abilities). The poison ability covers the entire body and always works on touch. It would be always applying with Combat Rhythm, since the ability doesn't come with activation costs and works on contact.

A nice ability if you intention is to overcome enemies not by sheer burst dmg, but by slowly hampering them. I mean, at the point where this ability comes online, you could already possibly OneHit stuff with each attack. But if that is the intention, why not. Especially those who don't want to go the ubercharger route could be attracted by this.

[Segev]

I would recommend Chill Touch with a boosted caster level. It is one touch attack per CL, after all.

[Aegis013]

I don't really think a strict DM could say that without houseruling. I noticed in your quote that it says:



Under any circumstances that don't explicitly say that no damage is dealt (such as with Combat Rhythm), said DM wouldn't have a leg to stand on.

The feat, however, has that one niggling bit that I was a bit concerned over.

Somehow I glossed over that sentence despite it being the one I was vaguely remembering and looking for. Thanks for pointing out my blindness. Then it should unquestionably work.