OOTS #1196 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[andreas002]

Progress, Belkar. Progress.

[Forikroder]

belkars got the priorities (almost) right XD

[Qwertystop]

What was it Roy was about to tell Julia? I don't remember that agreement.

[Ruck]

What was it Roy was about to tell Julia? I don't remember that agreement.

Roy got Eugene to agree to never visit the family once he finally (presumably) gets into Celestia. Eugene agreed, one might say worryingly quickly.

[JonahFalcon]

I personally have a cantrip for seasoning. I snap my fingers and my food tastes savory and awesome.

[kebusmaximus]

I wonder what Roy was going to tell his sister? I forgot what Eugene promised to do.

[Airinyourtires]

What is the cantrip Belkar is talking about? Prestidigitation (I have no idea what level that spell is)? Something else? Are there several and consequently we don’t know?

[Peelee]

I've noticed a recurring art error lately - Belkar is consistently being drawn much too short. This is clearly wrong, because that guy sure is growing on me.

[link3710]

I can't even tell if Elan's making up creatures or there are actually things called Satchel Swirlers.

[SpykeMH]

I think Roy was about to bring up their dad swearing to never go near their mom or the rest of the family so they can enjoy eternity without him once Xykon is dead :smalleek:

[Celestia]

What is the cantrip Belkar is talking about? Prestidigitation (I have no idea what level that spell is)? Something else? Are there several and consequently we don’t know?
One of the explicitly listed effects of Prestigitation is flavoring food, so I'm sure it's that one he's talking about. It's 0th level.

[Dire_Flumph]

belkars got the priorities (almost) right XD

He's doing well transitioning to a high-functioning sociopath at least.

[Stabbey]

Well, Belkar is trying at least. That's a lot coming from Belkar.


Roy got Eugene to agree to never visit the family once he finally (presumably) gets into Celestia. Eugene agreed, one might say worryingly quickly.

That does not preclude the family going to visit him, though. That would be their choice.

[Doug Lampert]

He's doing well transitioning to a high-functioning sociopath at least.

A long term, high functioning sociopath would not call attention to the fact that he's screwed up that way. Ordinary people can be thoughtless and selfish, so the occasional slip-up isn't actually all that revealing.

[Schroeswald]

I've noticed a recurring art error lately - Belkar is consistently being drawn much too short. This is clearly wrong, because that guy sure is growing on me.

Bwahahahaha!

Also, very good strip, me likey.

[Kantaki]

It says a lot about Belkar's development that I'm not 100% sure he's serious there.
There's a small chance he's just messing with V. Lets say ~0.5%?:smalltongue:

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I've noticed a recurring art error lately - Belkar is consistently being drawn much too short. This is clearly wrong, because that guy sure is growing on me.

I can do nothing but agree with those, after I stop wheezing :smalltongue:.

Also, I'm very curious to see what might come of this mixed bag.

[Ruck]

That does not preclude the family going to visit him, though. That would be their choice.

...OK? I was responding to the question "What was Roy about to tell Julia?" not "Are there loopholes in Roy's agreement with Eugene?"

EDIT: More generally, here is the reference (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0500.html) for Roy and Eugene making the agreement. And yes, it only precludes Eugene from visiting Sara's house, not anyone from visiting him. Still, it's quite representative of the disdain Eugene has toward his family / anyone who isn't himself. And I get the feeling that by the end of the strip, there's going to be another reason why Eugene can't visit Sara's house.

[Lord Torath]

Interesting that Julia could see what was going on around Roy. I got the idea that with the regular Sending spell, you can only see your target, not their surroundings. More fun with piggy-backed Blood Oath signals! :smallwink:


I've noticed a recurring art error lately - Belkar is consistently being drawn much too short. This is clearly wrong, because that guy sure is growing on me.Vigorously applying soap and scrub brush the next time you bathe should help with that. :smallbiggrin:

Seriously, though, he's growing on me, too. I used be look forward with glee to the day he drew his last breath. Now I kinda dread it. I'm sure Rich will make it worth it, though.

[DaOldeWolf]

Pretty sweet comic all around.

I also love how this show how prestidigitation is the best cantrip ever.

[understatement]

Aww, sweet.

Go Belkar!

[P.LOC]

Now I'm curios for what passes for breakfast...

[Jasdoif]

Now I'm curios for what passes for breakfast...I'm reminded of Garfield's Thanksgiving.



It was filling....But about those pancakes? Next time, a little less "pan", a little more "cake", okay?

[Windscion]

... it only precludes Eugene from visiting Sara's house, not anyone from visiting him. Still, it's quite representative of the disdain Eugene has toward his family / anyone who isn't himself. And I get the feeling that by the end of the strip, there's going to be another reason why Eugene can't visit Sara's house.

Can you even get restraining orders in Celestia? Mechanus, certainly. So probably.

[TheNecrocomicon]

Now I'm curios for what passes for breakfast...

"... and really bad eggs. Drink up, me hearties, yo ho!"

[Vrock Bait]

My guess was wrong, I suppose. Still, I wonder who the new(old?) character will be.

[Grey Watcher]

I've noticed a recurring art error lately - Belkar is consistently being drawn much too short. This is clearly wrong, because that guy sure is growing on me.

You're feeling quite proud of yourself, aren't you?


Interesting that Julia could see what was going on around Roy. I got the idea that with the regular Sending spell, you can only see your target, not their surroundings. More fun with piggy-backed Blood Oath signals! :smallwink:

Not.. necessarily? Yes, she looks over when Haley and V return, but she might just be reflexively looking to see what Roy is looking at before she realizes that she can't see it. It's a bit unclear though.

As for Belkar, all I can say is I've never identified with him so much as I do in that last panel.

[Fyraltari]

Halfling baby steps are very small.

I've noticed a recurring art error lately - Belkar is consistently being drawn much too short. This is clearly wrong, because that guy sure is growing on me.
Ah!

Interesting that Julia could see what was going on around Roy.

Could she? He had to tell her his people were there.

[Peelee]

You're feeling quite proud of yourself, aren't you?

You have no idea. In fact, I think you could say that's the long and short of it.:smallamused:

[Cicciograna]

I've noticed a recurring art error lately - Belkar is consistently being drawn much too short. This is clearly wrong, because that guy sure is growing on me.

I see no mistake then, there are no Peelees to be seen in the pictures.
Unless you - as in a Silver Dragon, which of course is your natural form - shapeshifted into something else, or are Greatly Invisible all the time around the Belkster.


Interesting that Julia could see what was going on around Roy.

I got the idea that Roy turned his head towards his friends, and Julia did the same just as the natural reaction that almost everybody has when their interlocutor suddenly shifts their attention elsewhere.

[Frozenstep]

So Haley/V scouting...

Good: Not all the doors are explored yet, still have time?

Bad: Could not find paladins?

[Peelee]

I see no mistake then, there are no Peelees to be seen in the pictures.

Oh, that's been my biggest complaint about the comic since I started reading it, don't even get me started on that!

[Curupira]

I personally have a cantrip for seasoning. I snap my fingers and my food tastes savory and awesome.

I misread it as CATNIP and thought things were really dire in the ship to make the gourmet chef ask for catnip as food seasoning.

[Emperor Time]

Oh Belkar, at least he trying which is a marked improvement for him. And I wonder how it will affect Julia if Roy never gets a chance to tell her about what their dad told him back then.

[gatemansgc]

v's expression in the last panel = gold

[Peelee]

Oh Belkar, at least he trying which is a marked improvement for him. And I wonder how it will affect Julia if Roy never gets a chance to tell her about what their dad told him back then.

Well, Julia is TN, so unless decides to (and can, to start with) pop over to Celestia, she shouldn't really notice much even after she dies, barring alignment changes.

[Kantaki]

Well, Julia is TN, so unless decides to (and can, to start with) pop over to Celestia, she shouldn't really notice much even after she dies, barring alignment changes.

As young as she is a alignment change doesn't seem too unlikely.
If only because TN is probably the hardest alignment to fit into. So easy to slip in any direction*…

*Some easier than others I guess.

[Fyraltari]

*Some easier than others I guess.
Yeah her brother is likely going to push her in the right direction.

[JonahFalcon]

Isn't "prestidigitation" just a way of saying "sleight of hand"?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleight_of_hand

[Fyraltari]

Isn't "prestidigitation" just a way of saying "sleight of hand"?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleight_of_hand

Yes, and necromancy means asking ghosts about the future (necro = dead, mancy = divination).

And a sorcerer, a wizard and a warlock are the same thing.

What’s your point?

[Nightcanon]

Thanks Giant, more than ever I need a bit of escapism at the moment. Stay well.

[Nightcanon]

Isn't "prestidigitation" just a way of saying "sleight of hand"?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleight_of_hand

I think you mean legerdemain.

[Kantaki]

Yeah her brother is likely going to push her in the right direction.

Maybe. Ending up in Celestia seems like a family tradition, but I was more thinking how some Alignments are supposedly "easier" to change to.
Mostly those on the lower third of the grid.

[Fyraltari]

Maybe. Ending up in Celestia seems like a family tradition, but I was more thinking how some Alignments are supposedly "easier" to change to.
Mostly those on the lower third of the grid.

Sounds awfully bleak and pessimistic of a mindset.

And not this comic’s take on it too. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1151.html)

[JonahFalcon]

I think you mean legerdemain.

Actually, if you read the article, it's both.

[KorvinStarmast]

Isn't "prestidigitation" just a way of saying "sleight of hand"?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleight_of_hand Yes, and the words Warlock, Sorcerer, and Wizard are all ways of saying Magic User. :smallwink:

Thesaurus diving is a very old D&D habit. See Original Magic User class ....
Magic-Users {From level 1 through 11 in order}

Medium, Seer, Conjurer, Theurgist, Thaumaturgist, Magician, Enchanter, Warlock, Sorcerer, Necromancer, Wizard

[King of Nowhere]

i wonder if julia will keep the family together on some level, as she gets along with both roy and eugene.

[KorvinStarmast]

i wonder if julia will keep the family together on some level, as she gets along with both roy and eugene.
Her mom's dead
Her dad's dead
Her brother Eric is dead

Roy is alive
Julia is alive

I'll offer that keeping the family together is all about staying in touch with Roy.
So far, so good. :smallsmile:

[Puschkin]

Ok, that's it, Belkar is my favaourite character now.

[Quizatzhaderac]

Now I'm curios for what passes for breakfast...Hardtack maybe? I'm imagining age of sail food, even though there's plenty of reasons a steampunk airship wouldn't need to do that.

[Kantaki]

Sounds awfully bleak and pessimistic of a mindset.

And not this comic’s take on it too. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1151.html)

Never said I believed it.
Some kind of It's easier to go down the stairs than up logic.
To which I say that's why we have elevators.:smalltongue:

[JumboWheat01]

Prestidigitation is a great cantrip, even Belkar agrees.

[GreatWyrmGold]

The world's ending and everyone's trying to be civil to everyone else. It's beautiful.

...even if not always successful.

[happycrow]

Holy Crap. Is Belkar actually passing the Celestia alignment test?

Belkar's trying.

[Lkctgo]

Oh poor Julia.. but considering she is true neutral, I don't see why Roy needs to tell her about his agreement with his dad. She won't ever be able to visit to know that he isn't with the family.

[LadyEowyn]

Now I'm curios for what passes for breakfast...
Given that he’s been using cinnamon, I’m guessing they don’t flavour the porridge sufficiently for his liking.

[Peelee]

Holy Crap. Is Belkar actually passing the Celestia alignment test?

Belkar's trying.

No. They care about trying to be the person that Celestia will accept, to not use so many words. Belkar is trying to be.. well, a functional person.

Which, don't get me wrong, I'm all for. But let's not break out the ticker tape for a basic decency, is what I'm saying.

[CriticalFailure]

V has some of the best faces.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Roy got Eugene to agree to never visit the family once he finally (presumably) gets into Celestia. Eugene agreed, one might say worryingly quickly.
I don't see any reason to worry. Anyone who'd agree that quickly to never see their family for all eternity (or whatever part of it they're still human for), without even an ounce of regret, probably shouldn't see their family.



What is the cantrip Belkar is talking about? Prestidigitation (I have no idea what level that spell is)? Something else? Are there several and consequently we don’t know?
Prestidigitation would work, but there are probably also a handful of dedicated seasoning spells that V's spouse might know, and that V might have copied into their spellbook at some point. (They had hold portal, a spell which doesn't even make wilderness cuisine more tolerable.)



A long term, high functioning sociopath would not call attention to the fact that he's screwed up that way. Ordinary people can be thoughtless and selfish, so the occasional slip-up isn't actually all that revealing.
How would Belkar know that? He's never paid attention to any ordinary people.



I also love how this show how prestidigitation is the best cantrip ever.
Oh yeah, it's great. I'm a bit irritated that 5e felt the need to more concretely nail down what it can do, but whatever.



And a sorcerer, a wizard and a warlock are the same thing.
I'm pretty sure there were distinctions between the three groups in classic folklore, just like Classical Mythology distinguished between titans and gods, or Norse Mythology distinguished between Aesir, Vanir, and Jotuns. (AKA, there wasn't much practical difference, but the words technically meant different things.)



Sounds awfully bleak and pessimistic of a mindset.
And not this comic’s take on it too. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1151.html)
Maybe I'm just more pessimistic, but it seems to me like Durkon's leaving out the possibility that people can be evil and just numb themselves to it or deceive themselves into thinking everything's fine.

That said, in the right environment—surrounded by people who care for you and want you to be your best self—there can be as many obstacles on the path down as there are trials on the straight and narrow. Maybe even more. I just wish that more people had those environments, and weren't either left to struggle largely on their own or guided down the wrong path.

Okay, yeah, I'm probably pessimistic.



Hardtack maybe? I'm imagining age of sail food, even though there's plenty of reasons a steampunk airship wouldn't need to do that.
For one thing, you should be able to use steam to soften it.



Oh poor Julia.. but considering she is true neutral, I don't see why Roy needs to tell her about his agreement with his dad. She won't ever be able to visit to know that he isn't with the family.
She's got a long life ahead of her. If Belkar can change from the sociopathic, shoeless god of war into what he is today in a span of a few months, how far do you think Julia could go in the next few decades?



Which, don't get me wrong, I'm all for. But let's not break out the ticker tape for a basic decency, is what I'm saying.
This whole arc probably earns him a gold star or two. He's taken his first steps on a journey of a thousand miles, and that's worth something.
But yeah, hold the ticker tape for the end.

[Anarion]

Running out of cinnamon is a serious emergency and I think Belkar is completely reasonable to ask for help immediately.

[Kantaki]

No. They care about trying to be the person that Celestia will accept, to not use so many words. Belkar is trying to be.. well, a functional person.

Which, don't get me wrong, I'm all for. But let's not break out the ticker tape for a basic decency, is what I'm saying.

{scrubbed}
Slightly out of context, I know.

[Doug Lampert]

Running out of cinnamon is a serious emergency and I think Belkar is completely reasonable to ask for help immediately.

Just yesterday (literally) I was looking for the garlic powder, and couldn't find it, but we had a huge thing of cinnamon where it was supposed to be.

I asked my wife, she couldn't find the garlic powder either, but also found the big thing of cinnamon, leading her to say, "That's where that is! I couldn't find it last time I looked, so I bought more."

We're assuming that the maid rearranged things, I just wish I knew where she'd rearranged the garlic powder to.

[Peelee]

Oh yeah, it's great. I'm a bit irritated that 5e felt the need to more concretely nail down what it can do, but whatever.
Samesies.

This whole arc probably earns him a gold star or two. He's taken his first steps on a journey of a thousand miles, and that's worth something.
But yeah, hold the ticker tape for the end.

Since the talk with Durkon in the dwarven tunnels, I've come around to the idea that he is indeed going to be less Evil and might come around to Neutral. I'm even rooting for him now!

Good is right out, though.

[The_Weirdo]

In Belkar's defense, he will likely share whatever delectable meal he makes.

Incidentally, I bet on chili. It's hearty, hot and good for cold temperatures and, yes, good recipes of it take some cinnamon. :smallbiggrin:


No. They care about trying to be the person that Celestia will accept, to not use so many words. Belkar is trying to be.. well, a functional person.

Which, don't get me wrong, I'm all for. But let's not break out the ticker tape for a basic decency, is what I'm saying.

Well, to be sure, he's not trying for LG, but for CN or TN. And those may well have quite different standards with regards to prizes for trying, not the least of it because neither of them would likely see Belkar as worth the trouble.

[Fyraltari]

classic folklore
There is no such thing. The tale changes in every telling. Folklore knows no canon, nor strict definition.


Maybe I'm just more pessimistic, but it seems to me like Durkon's leaving out the possibility that people can be evil and just numb themselves to it or deceive themselves into thinking everything's fine.
He’s definitely talking about people deceiving themselves into thinking everything is fine. I’m not sure what you mean exactly by ‘numbing themselves’ but I agree that Durkon isn’t being exhaustive here, this looks more like a vaguely general take that may or may not be aimed purposely at Belkar.


That said, in the right environment—surrounded by people who care for you and want you to be your best self—there can be as many obstacles on the path down as there are trials on the straight and narrow. Maybe even more. I just wish that more people had those environments, and weren't either left to struggle largely on their own or guided down the wrong path.
The thing is, doing the right thing is in no way harder than doing the wrong thing but nobody asks the question unless the wrong thing happens to be the easier thing so people get the impression that being good is hard.
There have also been people who make a living convincing people that they cannot be good on their own and need to listen to them or else... And that’s all I will say on that particular subtopic.

[Peelee]

In Belkar's defense, he will likely share whatever delectable meal he makes.

I don't know why you would think that (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0622.html).

Well, to be sure, he's not trying for LG, but for CN or TN.
The post I quoted was specifically talking about the criteria for LG, though?:smallconfused:

[The_Weirdo]

I don't know why you would think that (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0622.html).

Well, at this point? V's demands, plus Belkar mellowed some.


I don't know why you would think that (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0622.html).

The post I quoted was specifically talking about the criteria for LG, though?:smallconfused:

No, no, I'm agreeing with you there. Basically, even if we try to give him points for trying to be a decent person, his likely takers may well not. He's not trying for LG.

[Peelee]

Well, at this point? V's demands, plus Belkar mellowed some.

Sure, his mellowing means I'd hope that he'd share. But I certainly wouldn't classify it as "likely."

[Fyraltari]

I think that if there’s meat in it, we can safely assume the cat and pocket-sized allosaurus will be shared with.

[The_Weirdo]

I think that if there’s meat in it, we can safely assume the cat and pocket-sized allosaurus will be shared with.

Chili does have meat in it. Also, my thoughts go to you guys, because I like fine cheeses. (Belkar mode) :smalltongue:

And Peelee, if what I said here isn't allowed, I will gladly delete it myself and apologize...


Sure, his mellowing means I'd hope that he'd share. But I certainly wouldn't classify it as "likely."

I like chili and I only managed to get it right once. I might be projecting and deciding that a fictional character would share out of vicarious wishes. Can you blame me? :smalltongue:

[happycrow]

No. They care about trying to be the person that Celestia will accept, to not use so many words.

With respect, that's tautological. Clearly he is not actually Celestia-bound. But at the same time, the trying is real, and in the one good-aligned afterlife we've seen, we've seen that trying matters.
We've also seen that alignments aren't stepladders, but ideas. What he's trying now looks a lot more like "let's all do our part" than anything we've ever seen out of Belkar, like, ever. Ymmv on whether he needs to climb *through* Chaotic Neutral to get there, but as I read Thor, that's not how it works, and as I read Minrah's sermon, she's doubled down on that as being correct: you aren't a category, but what you choose to do.

[Peelee]

And Peelee, if what I said here isn't allowed, I will gladly delete it myself and apologize...
Let me put on my mod hat.

Please be aware it does not work like that.

Mod hat off.

Chili does have meat in it. Also, my thoughts go to you guys, because I like fine cheeses. (Belkar mode) :smalltongue:

I like chili and I only managed to get it right once. I might be projecting and deciding that a fictional character would share out of vicarious wishes. Can you blame me? :smalltongue:

Well, I wouldn't say "blame," but offering meat to the vegetarian elf isn't something I'd hope for.

Also, my money is on cinnamon toast.

[The_Weirdo]

Well, I wouldn't say "blame," but offering meat to the vegetarian elf isn't something I'd hope for.

Also, my money is on cinnamon toast.

V is a confirmed vegetarian?

To be sure, I doubt Belkar would care to remember V's eating habits.

[Nightcanon]

Actually, if you read the article, it's both.

Whoooooosh!

[Fyraltari]

V is a confirmed vegetarian?


Indeed (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=15364500&postcount=11), V is.

[The_Weirdo]

Indeed (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=15364500&postcount=11), V is.

Well, to be sure, a lot of times, elven cuisine is depicted as vegetarian or at least nearly so.

Which is rather odd, if you consider that elves live in wooded areas where most of the food is either fruit, fungus or furry.

[Petrocorus]

Hi everyone.

Concerning Belkar, i do thing he's clearly on his path to Chaotic - Neutral. I do concur with peoples who says he's never going to be good.

[AstralFire]

Belkar continues his ascent toward oddly endearing.

No strong feelings about the other jokes here but in general an oddly endearing page between Haley/Elan, Belkar, and the siblings.

I wonder what her reaction will be to finding out Roy's deal with dad; I'm getting the feeling that was a poor decision on his part.

[The_Weirdo]

Belkar continues his ascent toward oddly endearing.

No strong feelings about the other jokes here but in general an oddly endearing page between Haley/Elan, Belkar, and the siblings.

I wonder what her reaction will be to finding out Roy's deal with dad; I'm getting the feeling that was a poor decision on his part.

She's Neutral. Won't be her problem in any capacity, unless the devas decide to bump him to the Outlands, in which case she might either thank Roy or, if she's smarter, curse him. :smalltongue:

[GreatWyrmGold]

Since the talk with Durkon in the dwarven tunnels, I've come around to the idea that he is indeed going to be less Evil and might come around to Neutral. I'm even rooting for him now!

Good is right out, though.
Don't be ridiculous. Anyone can be redeemed if they try hard enough. All he needs is motivation and enough time, and he'll—oh, right.



There is no such thing. The tale changes in every telling. Folklore knows no canon, nor strict definition.
This is all either wrong or irrelevant. There is such a thing as "classic folklore," as distinct from "modern fantasy," and I hope I don't have to defend this fairly obvious position. The rest is true, but irrelevant. Different words imply different things about functionally similar characters. To pick an obvious example, a priest and a druid might both be able to screw up evil spirits, but they're fundamentally different types of legendary characters.
Sure, one legend probably wouldn't have both priests and druids, but IIRC, "wizard," "sorcerer," and "warlock" all came from different cultures with subtly different understandings of magicians and the supernatural.

Also, thanks for cutting out the part where I explained that I wasn't saying that wizards, sorcerers, and warlocks had clearly-defined differences in classic folklore. Thanks for making me look like a moron!


The thing is, doing the right thing is in no way harder than doing the wrong thing but nobody asks the question unless the wrong thing happens to be the easier thing so people get the impression that being good is hard.
There's a big difference between being good and being evil.

Let's take an example I'm confident everyone will agree with. There's this guy who fights for the good of his people, but also kinda doesn't care about anyone else. In fact, he wants to kill or enslave most of them, and acts on that desire. That's right, I'm talking about Magneto. Magneto acts good towards mutants, and evil towards non-mutants. Is Magneto good or evil? If you say he's only evil because he wants to kill/enslave a majority of humanity, what about the reverse situation?

It's incorrect to say that a single Evil deed prevents you from ever being Good...but it's easier for evil acts to make an otherwise good person evil than vise versa. There's a reason they call it "the straight and narrow".
[/spoiler]

[Lombard]

Everyone is being so nice to each other. Something terrible must be about to happen!

[gerryq]

A subtle callback! It was Elan who took the Belt, and now we know he tried it on...

[Schroeswald]

A subtle callback! It was Elan who took the Belt, and now we know he tried it on...

? I'm missing where that is implied at all.

[Windscion]

? I'm missing where that is implied at all.

I think the bit about multitasking.

[Schroeswald]

I think the bit about multitasking.

I still don't understand that, what does that have to do with the girdle of femininity/masculinity?

[Necris Omega]

I'm trying to think how prestidigitation could best be used in this scenario. It can flavor up to 1 pound of materials, so I'm thinking it would be less a direct application and more "transmuting" one "seasoning" or ingredient to another.

Sure, making "cinna-salt" would probably be unhealthy/have side effects, but if that's the biggest risk Belkar/his breakfast guests undertake today in the circumstances, then Team Evil's really, really let themselves go.

[skim172]

Curious to see how the Greenhilt family drama plays out. I'm thinking Julia is informed about this deal between Eugene and Roy at an inopportune climactic moment in which her cooperation is needed and the guano hits the propeller?

Eugene is an antagonist of this story - arguably a primary villain because of how closely he's tied to the main plot. In terms of Roy's personal subplot and character growth, Eugene is the big baddie which he must overcome. And unlike other villains, Eugene is never ascribed a single redeeming feature nor a deeper character motivation. He is purely and totally selfish, spiteful and has no love for anyone.

The only antagonist who is less sympathizable and accessible is Xykon - and I would argue Xykon displays more complexity than Eugene. We at least have gotten some glimpses of Xykon's inner mind and mentality, as despicable and unjustifiable as it is. With Eugene, we know nearly nothing about how Eugene thinks or what motivates him. Basically, it boils down to: "He's a ****." And that dickishness is the catalyst for the main plotline.

This story will end with Eugene "vanquished" in his own right. And it will be interesting to see how that plays out. I'm wondering if Eugene makes a full betrayal in this final book - we discover he's working with the IFCC to destroy the world or something. Who knows, maybe those voices at the end of the last book were related to him. Although they showed too much charisma and forward planning ability to really be identifiable with Eugene.

In any case, I predict Eugene is defeated by Julia rejecting him at a climactic point and then in the denouement, Eugene banished to an evil afterlife to suffer forever and ever.

[theangelJean]

Third page already, and I'm the first one to have a different take on Eugene's agreement while Roy was in the afterlife?

Eugene agreed to contact Roy as soon as Xykon left Azure City. But he was unable to do so, because he could only use the Blood Oath to contact him when a) Roy was alone or everyone around him was asleep or whatever (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1046.html), b) Roy was conscious and presumably c) when Roy had his sword with him.

Julia seems to have got around the first requirement, maybe. But there's still the second and third points. I wonder how that would go?

[AstralFire]

Curious to see how the Greenhilt family drama plays out. I'm thinking Julia is informed about this deal between Eugene and Roy at an inopportune climactic moment in which her cooperation is needed and the guano hits the propeller?

Eugene is an antagonist of this story - arguably a primary villain because of how closely he's tied to the main plot. In terms of Roy's personal subplot and character growth, Eugene is the big baddie which he must overcome. And unlike other villains, Eugene is never ascribed a single redeeming feature nor a deeper character motivation. He is purely and totally selfish, spiteful and has no love for anyone.

The only antagonist who is less sympathizable and accessible is Xykon - and I would argue Xykon displays more complexity than Eugene. We at least have gotten some glimpses of Xykon's inner mind and mentality, as despicable and unjustifiable as it is. With Eugene, we know nearly nothing about how Eugene thinks or what motivates him. Basically, it boils down to: "He's a ****." And that dickishness is the catalyst for the main plotline.

This story will end with Eugene "vanquished" in his own right. And it will be interesting to see how that plays out. I'm wondering if Eugene makes a full betrayal in this final book - we discover he's working with the IFCC to destroy the world or something. Who knows, maybe those voices at the end of the last book were related to him. Although they showed too much charisma and forward planning ability to really be identifiable with Eugene.

In any case, I predict Eugene is defeated by Julia rejecting him at a climactic point and then in the denouement, Eugene banished to an evil afterlife to suffer forever and ever.

IDK. The fact that Eugene has been such a one dimensional jerk is more or less exactly why I'm doubting this is how it plays out. We know he's nominally good aligned, and while I don't think he's a good person or destined for vindication of any sort, I think it'd be a missed opportunity to bring Julia into it just so one more person can tell him to go pound sand. I'm not sure what that really adds to the story.

I agree that overcoming Eugene is going to be part of this story, but I don't expect it will be like that.

[Worldsong]

So are we hating on Eugene again?

[danielxcutter]

Belkar has never had any problems with sharing the food he cooks with other people, really. Pretty sure “cooking” comes right after “stabbing” and “taking care of Mr. Scruffy” on his list of favorite things to do.

[thomaszwanzinge]

I just wanted to add that the Comic title is really great, just as the Comic itself.

best regards,
Thomas

[Fyraltari]

This is all either wrong or irrelevant. There is such a thing as "classic folklore," as distinct from "modern fantasy," and I hope I don't have to defend this fairly obvious position. The rest is true, but irrelevant. Different words imply different things about functionally similar characters. To pick an obvious example, a priest and a druid might both be able to screw up evil spirits, but they're fundamentally different types of legendary characters.
Sure, one legend probably wouldn't have both priests and druids, but IIRC, "wizard," "sorcerer," and "warlock" all came from different cultures with subtly different understandings of magicians and the supernatural.

Also, thanks for cutting out the part where I explained that I wasn't saying that wizards, sorcerers, and warlocks had clearly-defined differences in classic folklore. Thanks for making me look like a moron!
You might want to tone down the aggression here, Wyrm, no-one is attacking you.
And I maintain that "subtly different understandings" and "technically different" doesn't mean anything. all these words are used to describe strange people with supernatural powers. At most some of them cast the charcter as a vilain.



There's a big difference between being good and being evil.
Let's take an example I'm confident everyone will agree with. There's this guy who fights for the good of his people, but also kinda doesn't care about anyone else. In fact, he wants to kill or enslave most of them, and acts on that desire. That's right, I'm talking about Magneto. Magneto acts good towards mutants, and evil towards non-mutants. Is Magneto good or evil? If you say he's only evil because he wants to kill/enslave a majority of humanity, what about the reverse situation?
Magneto is evil. magneto is also good. It all depends on what whoever is writing Magneto feels about him and is using him for.

People are not good nor evil actions are. Trying to cast judgement on someone's entire life, motivations and values is doomed to failure, and frankly, pointless.


It's incorrect to say that a single Evil deed prevents you from ever being Good...but it's easier for evil acts to make an otherwise good person evil than vise versa. There's a reason they call it "the straight and narrow".
I refer you back to:


The thing is, doing the right thing is in no way harder than doing the wrong thing but nobody asks the question unless the wrong thing happens to be the easier thing so people get the impression that being good is hard.
There have also been people who make a living convincing people that they cannot be good on their own and need to listen to them or else... And that’s all I will say on that particular subtopic.

[BisectedBrioche]

Holy Crap. Is Belkar actually passing the Celestia alignment test?

Belkar's trying.

I guess you could say that he's getting to a...Good Place!

[Windscion]

I still don't understand that, what does that have to do with the girdle of femininity/masculinity?
Just because multitasking is associated with females. What justification that has, IDK.

[b_jonas]

There's just one problem with Belkar cooking: he's really bad at it. He has points in the Profession (gourmet chef) skill, which means he can cook in "a fully stocked professional kitchen". (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0475.html) They're on the road on a pirate ship far from any towns where they could get ingredients. To cook there, you need the Survival skill, and Belkar hasn't invested in that at all (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0213.html). The ship's cook (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1043.html) can cook better meals (https://www.irregularwebcomic.net/4166.html) than him. Even if Durkon uses a spell to summon "mass-conjured pseudo-food packed with artificial ingredients, (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1179.html) it will taste better than what Belkar makes. (Except perhaps when Belkar makes food for Mr. Scruffy or Bloodfeast, because it's possible that those use his Handle Animal skill.)

[Alysar]

Wait, I thought Roy couldn't remember specifics about when he was dead.

[Schroeswald]

Just because multitasking is associated with females. What justification that has, IDK.
If that’s what that actually meant, that is in no way any sort of callback, because not only is multitasking not particularly feminine, it’s super wrong to say that the only way a dude could do it is to become a woman.

Wait, I thought Roy couldn't remember specifics about when he was dead.
He remembers no specifics of the mountain but he does remember what happened on the cloud, which is where that conversation happened.

[AstralFire]

There's just one problem with Belkar cooking: he's really bad at it. He has points in the Profession (gourmet chef) skill, which means he can cook in "a fully stocked professional kitchen". (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0475.html) They're on the road on a pirate ship far from any towns where they could get ingredients. To cook there, you need the Survival skill, and Belkar hasn't invested in that at all (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0213.html). The ship's cook (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1043.html) can cook better meals (https://www.irregularwebcomic.net/4166.html) than him. Even if Durkon uses a spell to summon "mass-conjured pseudo-food packed with artificial ingredients, (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1179.html) it will taste better than what Belkar makes. (Except perhaps when Belkar makes food for Mr. Scruffy or Bloodfeast, because it's possible that those use his Handle Animal skill.)

uhh. Where you linked "ship's cook", that looked like a fully stocked professional kitchen to me.

Not a hundred percent if you're being serious or facetious here.

Presumably Belkar likes what he makes for himself even if it's not amazing.

[danielxcutter]

Belkar cooked tropical birds that weren’t even intended for eating, and Haley seemed to like it. He’s got spices which I think gives a +2 circumstantial bonus to the check. I’d also mention the MitD liking his vulture stew, but we know that guy’s standards are so low(despite his claims to the contrary) you’d probably have to start from the Underdark and then start digging deeper so it doesn’t count. He’s good enough for his culinary knowledge to serve as a replacement for Survival checks on a friggin’ Semi-Elemental Plane, even if it was one of Ranch Dressing! He’s probably better than anyone posting here on this thread at the very least!

[Peelee]

Belkar has never had any problems with sharing the food he cooks with other people, really. Pretty sure “cooking” comes right after “stabbing” and “taking care of Mr. Scruffy” on his list of favorite things to do.
"Cooking" means preparing food. "For others" is not an integral part.

He didn't share those sandwiches he made, for example.

There's just one problem with Belkar cooking: he's really bad at it. He has points in the Profession (gourmet chef) skill

That kind of implies he's not really bad at it.

Also, it's not like I can outcook Gordon Ramsey in a galley.

[danielxcutter]

"Cooking" means preparing food. "For others" is not an integral part.

He didn't share those sandwiches he made, for example.

Well okay, but I was talking more about the “how good is he at cooking” part in that quote.

And honestly, the DC for making sandwiches is probably in the negatives.

[Jay R]

No, Belkar is not trying to become LG, or to affect his alignment at all. He is pretending to have character growth.

That "faking sincerity" thing is pretty useful too (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0606.html).

In this case, he pretended to have character growth by faking a sincere interest in Vaarsuvius's welfare, but dropped it too soon to be believable.

No, he is not trying to have actual character growth. [He's having character growth, because we tend to slowly become more like the thing we are pretending to be, but he's not trying to grow; he's trying to fake growth.]


Well, Belkar is trying at least. That's a lot coming from Belkar.

Oh Belkar, at least he trying which is a marked improvement for him.

Belkar's trying.

Yes, Belkar is trying.

Very, very trying.

[KorvinStarmast]

Given that he’s been using cinnamon, I’m guessing they don’t flavour the porridge sufficiently for his liking. No true halfling would eat his porridge without cinnamon ... :smallcool:

Incidentally, I bet on chili. It's hearty, hot and good for cold temperatures and, yes, good recipes of it take some cinnamon. :smallbiggrin: I agree that cinnamon is often a good spice in chili. I make a vegetarian black bean chili every Lent for our suppers at church; and a touch of cinnamon is included. (One must not overdo it, IME, or it may overwhelm the dish).

Everyone is being so nice to each other. Something terrible must be about to happen! +1. :smallcool:

Curious to see how the Greenhilt family drama plays out.
What drama?
Eugene: dead. Sara: Dead. Eric: Dead. Roy: Alive, was once dead. Julia: alive.

Eugene is hardly an antagonist for the epic tale; he's a dad (imperfect of course, as are most characters in this story) and he's on Roy's side vis a vis "Xykon needs to die/be stopped." Rich has chosen to portray one form of internal conflict in OoTS as 'daddy issues' for both Haley and Roy, and for Elan in a different style with that "twins separated" thing.

[danielxcutter]

Well, Elan had plenty of daddy issues himself, didn’t he?

[Doug Lampert]

No true halfling would eat his porridge without cinnamon ... :smallcool:

But would he put sugar on it? And does it make any difference if it is cinnamon sugar?

[KorvinStarmast]

But would he put sugar on it? And does it make any difference if it is cinnamon sugar? Aaww, man, :smallfrown: now we need to check out the various halfling splat books for 3e and 3.5e to figure this out ... arrgghh! :smallfurious:

[danielxcutter]

Well, 3.5e’s book on the topic would be Races of the Wild. Not sure about 3.0e, though.

[bunsen_h]

It occurs to me that as soon as Xykon is finished off, the Blood Oath is fulfilled, Eugene scarpers off to his final destination... and Roy and Julia lose their communication. That may be an important loss of information, for whatever is left to the story.


I misread it as CATNIP and thought things were really dire in the ship to make the gourmet chef ask for catnip as food seasoning.

It's a member of the mint family and has a kind-of-minty taste. It could be used in cookery for humanoids. And it's not implausible that Belkar is preparing something for Mr. Scruffy.


A long term, high functioning sociopath would not call attention to the fact that he's screwed up that way.

Thing is, everyone around him already knows that he's screwed up that way. What he just said has the downside of reminding people about it, but the upside of showing that he's working on it.

[137beth]

That response from Belkar is something many real people I know would actually give (except without the magic part).

[Sir_Norbert]

Can we keep the textspeak out of the comics, please? "Moreso" is not a word in English.

[Jasdoif]

Can we keep the textspeak out of the comics, please? "Moreso" is not a word in English.Pretty sure "moreso" has been a word in English longer than "textspeak" has. Moreso, it's obviously a word in Common....

[Peelee]

Can we keep the textspeak out of the comics, please? "Moreso" is not a word in English.

I'm sorry, but in the interest of retaining language purity, I only respond to comments made in the original gutteral grunts and groans. :smalltongue:

[bunsen_h]

Pretty sure "moreso" has been a word in English longer than "textspeak" has. Moreso, it's obviously a word in Common....

This (https://www.grammarphobia.com/blog/2019/10/moreso.html) cites an example almost 200 years old.

[Grey Watcher]

This (https://www.grammarphobia.com/blog/2019/10/moreso.html) cites an example almost 200 years old.

Those dastardly 19th century authors and their smartphones! :shakes fist:

[Finagle]

I thought Roy didn't remember anything from when he was dead. Just a glow.

Isn't he supposed to insult Julia? And Julia insults him back? I thought we had established that is what passes for an expression of affection in their screwed-up family?

[Grey Watcher]

I thought Roy didn't remember anything from when he was dead. Just a glow.

I think that was just whatever happened on the mountain proper. He said he can remember the clouds parts pretty well, but the mountain itself is a big, happy blur (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0666.html).

[Worldsong]

It appears that being dead isn't what causes memory loss (as strange as that may sound), but the afterlife itself. The cloudzone is not the actual afterlife, it's the lobby in which you wait to be sorted into the appropriate final destination.

I think this has come up before.

[Elenna]

Well, Belkar is... certainly making an attempt, at least...


Roy got Eugene to agree to never visit the family once he finally (presumably) gets into Celestia. Eugene agreed, one might say worryingly quickly.

I feel like Roy not managing to tell Julia that almost has to be a plot point because Chekhov, but I can't figure out how :smallconfused:


In Belkar's defense, he will likely share whatever delectable meal he makes.

Incidentally, I bet on chili. It's hearty, hot and good for cold temperatures and, yes, good recipes of it take some cinnamon. :smallbiggrin:

For breakfast, though? I mean, I'll eat chili anytime, but it's not really typical breakfast fare...
Personally, I'm betting on French toast.

[JonahFalcon]

Belkar is inching towards Chaotic Neutral, meaning he's still enjoys wanton murder, but isn't treating teammates like XP sources, and instead as people he hangs with and benefits from -- for now.

He's probably looking at Pandemonium and thinking, "Hrm, I like the look of that place. Pandesmos, it is."

[Phhase]

No, Belkar is not trying to become LG, or to affect his alignment at all. He is pretending to have character growth.

That "faking sincerity" thing is pretty useful too (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0606.html).

In this case, he pretended to have character growth by faking a sincere interest in Vaarsuvius's welfare, but dropped it too soon to be believable.

No, he is not trying to have actual character growth. [He's having character growth, because we tend to slowly become more like the thing we are pretending to be, but he's not trying to grow; he's trying to fake growth.]


It's true he began by pretending to grow as a character, which in turn, caused him to actually grow under the hood as a side effect. However, due to the multiple times he's realized that he's growing for real ("I'm supposed to influence your behavior, not the other way around!", "It's so weird, right? It's not just me?"), I think it's gotten more difficult to definitively say he's just pretending and growing as a side effect anymore. Even if it's just prowling around the edges of not being a caricature of a person, I think his efforts are honest (even if he doesn't understand why he's doing it anymore).



Yes, Belkar is trying.

Very, very trying.
Kehehe :smallbiggrin:

Oh, Peelee, do you say it "Pee-lee" (Similar to Peewee), "Pey-ley" (How I've always imagined it), "Pee-ley", or "Pey-lee"? In the interest of balance, my name goes just like the source word ("feyz") but with a little more f sound to it ("ffeyz"). Can't tell ya how many times people forget that it's two 'h's rather than two 'p's.



He's probably looking at Pandemonium and thinking, "Hrm, I like the look of that place. Pandesmos, it is."
I know this setting doesn't use Greyhawk gods, but I get the feeling that Erythnul's Citadel of Eternal Slaughter would suit Belkar very well:smallbiggrin:.

[Peelee]

Oh, Peelee, do you say it "Pee-lee" (Similar to Peewee), "Pey-ley" (How I've always imagined it), "Pee-ley", or "Pey-lee"? In the interest of balance, my name goes just like the source word ("feyz") but with a little more f sound to it ("ffeyz"). Can't tell ya how many times people forget that it's two 'h's rather than two 'p's.

P. Lee. First initial, last name, spelled phonetically for websites that dislike 4 character names.

[JonahFalcon]

I know this setting doesn't use Greyhawk gods, but I get the feeling that Erythnul's Citadel of Eternal Slaughter would suit Belkar very well:smallbiggrin:.

Well, he definitely doesn't want to go to The Abyss, because he'd stick ochre jelly in his ear canals and claw his eyes out at people eternally asking if they want to go up a level or down a level.


No one goes to the Citadel of Slaughter on purpose, unless they serve Erythnul and seek to join in the deity's eternal slaughter.

I imagine Belkar applying would pretty much be this:

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0132.html

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0133.html

Except Erythnul would be explicitly asking Belkar to murder them.

[Ruck]

I don't see any reason to worry. Anyone who'd agree that quickly to never see their family for all eternity (or whatever part of it they're still human for), without even an ounce of regret, probably shouldn't see their family.
It's extremely worrying that a person who would agree so quickly has a family, wife and children, that once depended on him.


No, Belkar is not trying to become LG, or to affect his alignment at all. He is pretending to have character growth.

That "faking sincerity" thing is pretty useful too (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0606.html).


It's true he began by pretending to grow as a character, which in turn, caused him to actually grow under the hood as a side effect. However, due to the multiple times he's realized that he's growing for real ("I'm supposed to influence your behavior, not the other way around!", "It's so weird, right? It's not just me?"), I think it's gotten more difficult to definitively say he's just pretending and growing as a side effect anymore.

I'll go beyond difficult and say it's flat-out wrong to say he's just pretending.

[drazen]

Is it just me or is something just a bit... off... with Julia? It's subtle, but... the arched eyebrow in "Are you going to... do that?" The bit about her thinking Roy thought she was dumb and useless didn't quite fit, either. Finally, their goodbye was different than in Cliffport: "Yeah, you too" isn't quite the same as "Love you, too." Perhaps I am reading too much into it, as it's been 900+ strips and who knows how many years of real time. But perhaps not... that a 17 year old wizard came up with this fancy spell and is eager to advise Roy after not really having given a crap about his questing before seems just a tad *too* convenient. When did Julia even learn about the Blood Oath, anyway? 🤔

[happycrow]

To the extent that dank dagger-wielding slaughter is just a thing he does, no longer his joy in life, I'd say real growth has occurred. His self-image encompasses far more than prior.

[Peelee]

To the extent that dank dagger-wielding slaughter is just a thing he does, no longer his joy in life,

[citation needed]

[The MunchKING]

[citation needed]

Not his ONLY joy maybe, but he's still a simple guy who likes hearing bodies thump (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1054.html).

[Roderick_BR]

Wait, can Julia hear and look at stuff around Roy too? She looked towards Elan when he announced Haley and Vaar's return. I thought she'd just see a fantasmal projection of Roy like Roy sees of her, since it's a back-and-forth continual Sending effect.

[Kantaki]

Wait, can Julia hear and look at stuff around Roy too? She looked towards Elan when he announced Haley and Vaar's return. I thought she'd just see a fantasmal projection of Roy like Roy sees of her, since it's a back-and-forth continual Sending effect.

She might be reacting to Roy looking there.
No need to be able to see or hear what's going on, just reflex/habit.

[The MunchKING]

Maybe she saw him look and followed his line of sight before realizing she couldn't see it? Like if someone suddenly looked behind you and over your shoulder on a video chat call or something. I dunno, just a guess.

[gerryq]

No true halfling would eat his porridge without cinnamon ... :smallcool:
I agree that cinnamon is often a good spice in chili. I make a vegetarian black bean chili every Lent for our suppers at church; and a touch of cinnamon is included. (One must not overdo it, IME, or it may overwhelm the dish).
+1. :smallcool:




Interesting tip. My version of chili has garlic, cumin and obviously lots of chili. But I can see how cinnamon might help.

[bunsen_h]

Interesting tip. My version of chili has garlic, cumin and obviously lots of chili. But I can see how cinnamon might help.

We use cocoa occasionally in our veggie chili. It's a bit odd, to my taste, but makes a nice change from the usual. I suppose it harks back to the original chocolate (Xocolātl), an unsweetened beverage made with hot spices.

[Ruck]

I've seen chili recipes with cinnamon in them. Even made them once or twice. I don't have a personal chili recipe yet, but you'd be surprised what cinnamon can add in the right combination.


We use cocoa occasionally in our veggie chili. It's a bit odd, to my taste, but makes a nice change from the usual. I suppose it harks back to the original chocolate (Xocolātl), an unsweetened beverage made with hot spices.

I haven't tried this yet, but I'm always down for spicy chocolate. I always keep some Aztec chocolate and/or mole bitters handy in my bar. (Speaking of, I haven't found a place with good affordable mole since I moved out of Texas, but I plan to keep trying.)

[The_Weirdo]

I've seen chili recipes with cinnamon in them. Even made them once or twice. I don't have a personal chili recipe yet, but you'd be surprised what cinnamon can add in the right combination.



I haven't tried this yet, but I'm always down for spicy chocolate. I always keep some Aztec chocolate and/or mole bitters handy in my bar. (Speaking of, I haven't found a place with good affordable mole since I moved out of Texas, but I plan to keep trying.)

I mean, I may be regarded as a sociopath, but I am a very good foodie, aren't I? :smallbiggrin:

[happycrow]

YMMV Peelee, but here are my citations:

Strip 1188.
"I was too busy dealing sick freestyle death-daggering to listen to dweeby plot stuff." (Note his use of past tense)

Strip 1191.
Trying a thing that involves actually planning ahead and using teamwork, on his own initiative, and getting his nominal leader's approval to do so (seriously: Belkar checks with Roy for permission to plan?). In a non-seething-with-thoughts-of-revenge kind of way.

Strip 1194.
"All you have to do.... not that I've managed that...."
"Never gave a damn what they thought before..." (clear implication that he has been caring what they think)

1196
Needs to ask for something that's kinda trivial, realizes that he's bungled the timing, tries for a do-over, still cares what V thinks.

Now I freely admit that confirmation bias is a thing and I'm as subject to it as anybody else. But to me, this is set-them-up-and-knock-them-down self-evident.
I see a clear difference here between the guy who has no higher thought than being a Sexy Shoeless God of War, and ... this guy who's realizing that there's a bigger picture he needs to fit into, and is trying to figure out how to do his part. And what alignment is "Let's all do our part?"

So there's "showing my work." It may not be as accurate as my obviously correct MITD idenfitication, but I think it's a defensible hypothesis.

[Peelee]

YMMV Peelee, but here are my citations:

Strip 1188.
"I was too busy dealing sick freestyle death-daggering to listen to dweeby plot stuff." (Note his use of past tense)
He's describing something in the past, so past tense makes sense. He also describes his actions as "sick freestyle death-daggering," which shows his current state of mind on sad actions.

Strip 1191.
Trying a thing that involves actually planning ahead and using teamwork, on his own initiative, and getting his nominal leader's approval to do so (seriously: Belkar checks with Roy for permission to plan?). In a non-seething-with-thoughts-of-revenge kind of way.

Strip 1194.
"All you have to do.... not that I've managed that...."
"Never gave a damn what they thought before..." (clear implication that he has been caring what they think)

1196
Needs to ask for something that's kinda trivial, realizes that he's bungled the timing, tries for a do-over, still cares what V thinks.
None of those show that he doesn't still derive joy from dagger-wielding slaughter, and MunchKING demonstrated a recent strip where he is very clearly getting joy from dagger-wielding slaughter (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1054.html).

Basically, I'm saying that Belkar was forced to Marie Kondo his life, the daggers would top the list of things he ain't ditching.

[danielxcutter]

Who the heck is Marie Kondo?

[Schroeswald]

Who the heck is Marie Kondo?

She's this organizer lady who tells people to get rid of everything that doesn't "spark joy" when they pick it up.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Is it just me or is something just a bit... off... with Julia? It's subtle, but... the arched eyebrow in "Are you going to... do that?" The bit about her thinking Roy thought she was dumb and useless didn't quite fit, either. Finally, their goodbye was different than in Cliffport: "Yeah, you too" isn't quite the same as "Love you, too." Perhaps I am reading too much into it, as it's been 900+ strips and who knows how many years of real time. But perhaps not... that a 17 year old wizard came up with this fancy spell and is eager to advise Roy after not really having given a crap about his questing before seems just a tad *too* convenient. When did Julia even learn about the Blood Oath, anyway? 🤔

She probably started caring about the quest shortly after getting caught up in Roy's adventures. Or when he got killed and she's suddenly looking at having to do the job herself. As for the lore dump, I'd guess Roy filled her in on the deets shortly after he learned about them so she wouldn't be caught flat-footed by it like he was.

[Lheticus]

So has the "Belkar's prophesied 'death' is metaphorical" camp gained any more traction with this and other recent strips? Because I've been in it since around when he got thrown off the mountain but been afraid to admit it. I mean, it seems to me like the Belkar that asked the question (or existed when the question was asked, I forget who exactly asked that in particular) way back when, is becoming more gone, which is to say, to be able to say "THAT Belkar is dead" by the page.

Of course, if that doesn't pan out, I can fall back on the idea of there being extended consequences to taking Death-Worm breath to the face.

[Jasdoif]

So has the "Belkar's prophesied 'death' is metaphorical" camp gained any more traction with this and other recent strips?The self-delusional hard line hasn't really moved in the past several years, no.

[Peelee]

The biggest mark against it (or, the hardest-to-argue-against for proponents) is a simple "why would the Oracle take such delight in gloating over the guy who killed him not getting any comeuppance at all?"

[skim172]

I mean, I may be regarded as a sociopath, but I am a very good foodie, aren't I? :smallbiggrin:

Just like Hannibal Lecter.


That reminds me - remember to complete your census, everyone!

[GreatWyrmGold]

You might want to tone down the aggression here, Wyrm, no-one is attacking you.
The selective way you cut my post makes me suspicious about your non-malicious intent. If you just want to respond to my argument, why remove part of it, and in a way that casts my argument in a more ridiculous light?


And I maintain that "subtly different understandings" and "technically different" doesn't mean anything. all these words are used to describe strange people with supernatural powers. At most some of them cast the charcter as a vilain.
"Wizard," "warlock," "sorcerer," "druid," and "priest cleric" are all used to describe people with supernatural powers in D&D, too. Does that make them the same?


Magneto is evil. magneto is also good. It all depends on what whoever is writing Magneto feels about him and is using him for.
Ugh, alright. Replace "Magneto" with the dictator I was obviously implying when writing that description.


People are not good nor evil actions are. Trying to cast judgement on someone's entire life, motivations and values is doomed to failure, and frankly, pointless.
When I'm responding to someone who talks about "being good" as its own thing, it's effectively impossible to engage with them without either dismissing their point entirely or accepting oversimplistic descriptions as a practical necessity of conveying your ideas concisely. Obviously nobody is "all good" or "all evil," but the sum total of some people's actions makes them worthy of either praise or condemnation, and simplifying such concepts into "person good" and "person evil" makes it possible to have a conversation about them without requiring several pages of disclaimers and descriptors for each argument.

Which is something you seem to recognize, since you did the same thing in the original post. Not exactly the same, but you did have a thesis about "being good" rather than "doing more good things than bad ones". Almost as if you were simplifying terminology for the rhetorical purpose of not needing a full page of disclaimers and descriptors for every sentence of actual substance. Funny how you complain about me doing that, without thinking twice about you doing the same thing.


I refer you back to: [quote removed because that's how the forum works]
I already responded to this, remember? You're responding to my response to that quote. If you want to argue against my point with the point I was arguing against, you need to explain why my argument was invalid in the first place.



What drama?
Eugene: dead. Sara: Dead. Eric: Dead. Roy: Alive, was once dead. Julia: alive.

Eugene is hardly an antagonist for the epic tale; he's a dad (imperfect of course, as are most characters in this story) and he's on Roy's side vis a vis "Xykon needs to die/be stopped." Rich has chosen to portray one form of internal conflict in OoTS as 'daddy issues' for both Haley and Roy, and for Elan in a different style with that "twins separated" thing.
I don't know which is more confusing: Insisting that Eugene can't be a part of Greenhilt family drama because he also wants to destroy Xykon, or insisting that half the family being dead means they can't participate in family drama even though they already have. While dead.



Isn't he supposed to insult Julia? And Julia insults him back? I thought we had established that is what passes for an expression of affection in their screwed-up family?
Can't tell if serious or joke. In case serious: People grow up, people change. Especially when one of those people dies.



It's extremely worrying that a person who would agree so quickly has a family, wife and children, that once depended on him.
...point taken.



Is it just me or is something just a bit... off... with Julia? It's subtle, but... the arched eyebrow in "Are you going to... do that?" The bit about her thinking Roy thought she was dumb and useless didn't quite fit, either. Finally, their goodbye was different than in Cliffport: "Yeah, you too" isn't quite the same as "Love you, too." Perhaps I am reading too much into it, as it's been 900+ strips and who knows how many years of real time. But perhaps not... that a 17 year old wizard came up with this fancy spell and is eager to advise Roy after not really having given a crap about his questing before seems just a tad *too* convenient.
I'm guessing that Julia rethought her relationship with her big brother—her only family member still on the material plane—after he hit the big one, and had some regrets. The death of a family member, even one who you have a rocky relationship with, is as good a time as any to have some big revelations about how much of a jerk you are, and it's likely to have some ramifications on how you treat them if and when they come back.

Besides, now that Julia knows about the Blood Oath, she has a pretty strong motivation to help Roy beat Xykon. ("So I don't have to do it myself in 20 years" is a pretty strong motivator when "it" is destroying an epic-level lich.)


When did Julia even learn about the Blood Oath, anyway? 🤔
...I don't know.



There's just one problem with Belkar cooking: he's really bad at it. He has points in the Profession (gourmet chef) skill, which means he can cook in "a fully stocked professional kitchen". (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0475.html) They're on the road on a pirate ship far from any towns where they could get ingredients. To cook there, you need the Survival skill, and Belkar hasn't invested in that at all (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0213.html). The ship's cook (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1043.html) can cook better meals (https://www.irregularwebcomic.net/4166.html) than him. Even if Durkon uses a spell to summon "mass-conjured pseudo-food packed with artificial ingredients, (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1179.html) it will taste better than what Belkar makes. (Except perhaps when Belkar makes food for Mr. Scruffy or Bloodfeast, because it's possible that those use his Handle Animal skill.)
The solution is obvious. Belkar's going to make cat food for the party.



If that’s what that actually meant, that is in no way any sort of callback, because not only is multitasking not particularly feminine, it’s super wrong to say that the only way a dude could do it is to become a woman.
And even if multitasking was somehow innately feminine, it doesn't count as a callback because multitasking being feminine wasn't ever mentioned in the comic.



This (https://www.grammarphobia.com/blog/2019/10/moreso.html) cites an example almost 200 years old.
If the singular "they" taught me anything, it's that language purists won't be dissuaded by examples predating whenever they felt the language was most pure. Which happens to be coincidentally close to the time and region where they grew up.



The biggest mark against it (or, the hardest-to-argue-against for proponents) is a simple "why would the Oracle take such delight in gloating over the guy who killed him not getting any comeuppance at all?"
Because deep down, he's as big of a Belkar fan as the "metaphorical death" camp knows the entire forum is?

[Phhase]

Is it just me or is something just a bit... off... with Julia? It's subtle, but... the arched eyebrow in "Are you going to... do that?" The bit about her thinking Roy thought she was dumb and useless didn't quite fit, either. Finally, their goodbye was different than in Cliffport: "Yeah, you too" isn't quite the same as "Love you, too." Perhaps I am reading too much into it, as it's been 900+ strips and who knows how many years of real time. But perhaps not... that a 17 year old wizard came up with this fancy spell and is eager to advise Roy after not really having given a crap about his questing before seems just a tad *too* convenient. When did Julia even learn about the Blood Oath, anyway? 🤔

Looks like she's had some offscreen character development! After all, remember what Durkon told her? They had a long talk about responsibility and respecting your body, which Julia seems to have taken at least somewhat to heart (Likely in part because of the apparently "catatonic gay dwarf" turning out to be a mighty spellcaster). Note her completely revised hemline! "True Neutral" seems like "Impressionable Teen" in this case, and the titanic bolt of lightning, cacophonous thunderclap, and stern lecture seem to have left quite the impression.

In regard to dumb and useless, I mean, their last interaction was her being a damsel in distress, and that, combined with the standing tension of their father's derision for martial arts over magic, and simple sibling rivalry, seems a sufficient justification for that kind of small insecurity to me.

As for the Oath, I think their parents told them about the it in some capacity. After all, it was the reason this whole adventure began. Roy just didn't know about the consequences in the afterlife (At least, until his dad told him about them/he experienced them for himself). And even if not, Julia's research could conceivably uncovered the truth anyway. This is a (nominally diligent) college student doing QA on their thesis project, after all.

While the change in tune was a little unexpected, it does make sense, to me anyway, and I do like it.


The biggest mark against it (or, the hardest-to-argue-against for proponents) is a simple "why would the Oracle take such delight in gloating over the guy who killed him not getting any comeuppance at all?"

No comeuppance? What about the Mark of Justice and the village of "Lickmyballshalfling"?

[Peelee]

No comeuppance? What about the Mark of Justice and the village of "Lickmyballshalfling"?

The Oracle was brutally murdered and Belkar was sick for a week. Yeah, I'm sure the Oracle considers it even.

No clue how long Belkar was out for, actually.

[Jasdoif]

No comeuppance? What about the Mark of Justice and the village of "Lickmyballshalfling"?That (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0568.html) predated Belkar's "last breath ever" prophecy (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0572.html).

[Phhase]

The Oracle was brutally murdered and Belkar was sick for a week. Yeah, I'm sure the Oracle considers it even.

No clue how long Belkar was out for, actually.

True. But consider that A: the Oracle is used to being brutally murdered, to the point of having an auto-rez squad (see following assertion that his next death will be a brutal mauling via angry druid). And B: has he ever given a straight prophecy with no twist? I'd be disappointed if this one was just simple and straight. Could just be me, though.

[Peelee]

True. But consider that A: the Oracle is used to being brutally murdered, to the point of having an auto-rez squad (see following assertion that his next death will be a brutal mauling via angry druid).
I don't know if I'd call that "used to it." And even then, that doesn't mean he wouldn't take pleasure in the guy who killed him himself getting offed soon.

And B: has he ever given a straight prophecy with no twist?
Eugene's. Roy's regarding where Xykon was. Roy's regarding where Xykon was going to be first. Haley's. Elan's. V's Blackwing's. Belkar's. The Adult Black Dragon's.

Come to think of it, only Durkon's was a twist, because he wasn't an inanimate corpse like we all thought he would be. So one. One had a twist.

I'd be disappointed if this one was just simple and straight. Could just be me, though.
Think of it this way: is there any way the Oracle could have phrased the prophecy that you would accept Belkar would definitely die, and there be no way to twist the words into something other than Belkar dying? Because so far, the Oracle has said that he wasn't long for this world, should savor his next birthday cake, shouldn't bother funding his IRA, and would draw his last breath ever before the end of the year. All together, that sounds pretty definitive. Even if the Oracle said "Belkar Bitterleaf will die permanently," one could still make the metaphorical argument.

The Oracle doesn't tend to give prophecies that have twists. The Oracle does tend to give prophecies that are unhelpful. He does this to humanoids, and he also openly exhibits a marked disdain for humanoids, and Belkar in particular (or, at least, for the Order of the Stick specifically, and Belkar in particular).

[Jasdoif]

Come to think of it, only Durkon's was a twist, because he wasn't an inanimate corpse like we all thought he would be. So one. One had a twist.I object: It happened after Durkon died and Durkon was (still) dead; so there was no twist in saying it would happen "posthumously".

Like the rest of the Oracle's prophecies, there are no twists in the meaning of the words; only in the context/expectations of when they come true.

[InvisibleBison]

Strip 1194.
"Never gave a damn what they thought before..." (clear implication that he has been caring what they think)

I don't see how you could possibly think the quote implies that Belkar has started caring about what other people think about him, given that the very next thing he says is that he's not going to start caring about what other people think about him.

[Ruck]

That (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0568.html) predated Belkar's "last breath ever" prophecy (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0572.html).

But it doesn't predate the first time we see (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0329.html) the Oracle snark about Belkar's short lifespan.


And B: has he ever given a straight prophecy with no twist?

That is basically all he's given. Why do you think otherwise? (I see others replied first. Basically this, and hey, let's bookend this post with Jasdoif quotes why not:


I object: It happened after Durkon died and Durkon was (still) dead; so there was no twist in saying it would happen "posthumously".

Like the rest of the Oracle's prophecies, there are no twists in the meaning of the words; only in the context/expectations of when they come true.

[Jasdoif]

The biggest mark against it (or, the hardest-to-argue-against for proponents) is a simple "why would the Oracle take such delight in gloating over the guy who killed him not getting any comeuppance at all?"No comeuppance? What about the Mark of Justice and the village of "Lickmyballshalfling"?That (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0568.html) predated Belkar's "last breath ever" prophecy (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0572.html).

But it doesn't predate the first time we see (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0329.html) the Oracle snark about Belkar's short lifespan.True; but like I think Peelee might be getting at, there's not much sense to the Oracle deciding to start equivocating precisely when people don't want to believe what he's saying lying if the only comeuppance Belkar is actually going to get is what Roy had already witnessed.

[Peelee]

I object: It happened after Durkon died and Durkon was (still) dead; so there was no twist in saying it would happen "posthumously".

Like the rest of the Oracle's prophecies, there are no twists in the meaning of the words; only in the context/expectations of when they come true.
Eh, I have a tendency to cede arguable points in favor of the opposition, if only to make my own argument seem that much stronger due to holding even in the opposition's best possible case scenario.

True; but like I think Peelee might be getting at, there's not much sense to the Oracle deciding to start equivocating precisely when people don't want to believe what he's saying lying if the only comeuppance Belkar is actually going to get is what Roy had already witnessed.
....yyyyyes, I am indeed arguing intelligently and meant that all along!:smallwink:

[Rrmcklin]

No, Belkar is not trying to become LG, or to affect his alignment at all. He is pretending to have character growth.

That "faking sincerity" thing is pretty useful too (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0606.html).

In this case, he pretended to have character growth by faking a sincere interest in Vaarsuvius's welfare, but dropped it too soon to be believable.

No, he is not trying to have actual character growth. [He's having character growth, because we tend to slowly become more like the thing we are pretending to be, but he's not trying to grow; he's trying to fake growth.]


I feel like Belkar stopped trying to fake growth awhile ago (in real time); now he's actively trying to improve and is just bad at it because those kind of changes take actual time. But, yes, the reason he even got to the point to try and sincerely change at all is because his fake character growth jump started real growth.

[F.Harr]

Yay! Belkar's trying! I'm not sure this is the the most important thing to work on, but he's still trying!

[factotum]

I object: It happened after Durkon died and Durkon was (still) dead; so there was no twist in saying it would happen "posthumously".

In fact, I'm pretty sure the idea that the prophecy could mean Durkon returned home as an undead and brought death and destruction that way was suggested by people right back when it was first made, albeit they thought he would be an undead raised by Xykon rather than a vampire.

[Emanick]

I object: It happened after Durkon died and Durkon was (still) dead; so there was no twist in saying it would happen "posthumously".

Like the rest of the Oracle's prophecies, there are no twists in the meaning of the words; only in the context/expectations of when they come true.

I mean, isn't that basically what a twist is? A subversion of expectations, leading someone (such as Durkon) to expect one thing while in reality meaning something else entirely?

A twist isn't a wrong prophecy, it's just not a very helpful one, because it leads the recipient to expect something other than the true outcome. And that's what happened with Durkon.

So yeah, I don't necessarily have a problem with believing that The Oracle can give prophecies that may not be straightforward. If there were a plausible way in which Belkar's prophecy could be read that didn't lead to him dying, I'd consider it. That said, unless he's going to be imprisoned in a small cell in the Astral Plane forever, I don't see how any plausible interpretation could leave him alive.

I guess it's possible that the prophecy could have intentionally been false, given by Tiamat to The Oracle in order to ensure that the Order tolerates Belkar long enough for him to be instrumental in saving the multiverse from The Snarl. That said, I don't see Roy abandoning or killing Belkar even without the knowledge that he's going to die soon, so that's not a very compelling theory.

[happycrow]

I don't see how you could possibly think the quote implies that Belkar has started caring about what other people think about him, given that the very next thing he says is that he's not going to start caring about what other people think about him.

Since Minrah explicitly tells him ~"you have permission to change and not be held back by worrying about what people think about that change" literally in the preceding sentence?

Notice that I've also cherry picked the least favorable interpretation of Belkar in the last thread, too. He could have just rolled that thing about the cinnamon because he's flustered at V's "yeah ****ing right" reaction to ~"glad you're back safely," because it's an unspoken "what's your angle now, you evil scum?" So he provided one and trying to be better and having that rejected hurts.

[Jasdoif]

I object: It happened after Durkon died and Durkon was (still) dead; so there was no twist in saying it would happen "posthumously".

Like the rest of the Oracle's prophecies, there are no twists in the meaning of the words; only in the context/expectations of when they come true.I mean, isn't that basically what a twist is? A subversion of expectations, leading someone (such as Durkon) to expect one thing while in reality meaning something else entirely?That's the general family of "plot twists", yes.

It's a big family, however. "Literally true with unexpected context" is different from "figuratively true with expected context", "lying", "reasonably true if under different context", and "obviated by the author".

[Quizatzhaderac]

I'm not saying Belkar is/isn't planning to share now, but he did share his rations with Elan (and possibly Roy and Haley) in one of the DCF bonus strips.

The spice was a finite quantity exotic substance that Belkar may never see again. It also may have been wildly addictive. The sandwhich was after an extended period of not eating/digesting properly.

I'd guess Belkar not sharing is like lying. He'd do it if he has something to gain, can hurt someone, just to be funny, or if he just forgets. But he doesn't have a principled stance against sharing. That pound of cinnamon flavored oats is going to be more than Belkar can eat in a day.

But would he put sugar on it? And does it make any difference if it is cinnamon sugar?Whoa, whoa, whoa.

DO you mean a sugar/cinnamon mix or sugar magically re-flavored to cinnamon?

Eugene is hardly an antagonist for the epic taleHe's absolutely not the antagonist of the story. But consider this, how many stories are in an epic?

Classically, an epic is several related stories told in sequence. The modern epic tends to have stories going in parallel as well (note the kajillion settings in Game of Thrones). When one breaks an epic down into enough sub stories, one can clearly see the have different styles, subjects, and even genres.

One of the many sub stories is the Greenhilt family drama. Eugene obviously doesn't fit the mold of "standard fantasy villain", but he can be a low-key antagonist for a low-key sub-story.

[JonahFalcon]

Remember: antagonist does not mean "villain".

[Hekko]

Think of it this way: is there any way the Oracle could have phrased the prophecy that you would accept Belkar would definitely die, and there be no way to twist the words into something other than Belkar dying? Because so far, the Oracle has said that he wasn't long for this world, should savor his next birthday cake, shouldn't bother funding his IRA, and would draw his last breath ever before the end of the year. All together, that sounds pretty definitive. Even if the Oracle said "Belkar Bitterleaf will die permanently," one could still make the metaphorical argument.

The Oracle doesn't tend to give prophecies that have twists. The Oracle does tend to give prophecies that are unhelpful. He does this to humanoids, and he also openly exhibits a marked disdain for humanoids, and Belkar in particular (or, at least, for the Order of the Stick specifically, and Belkar in particular).

These are also not prophecies as in "paid for products". These are his ramblings about things that he learnt from seeing future that no-one asked about.

Even if the Oracle intentionally phrased the prophecies to be ambigous, unclear, or misleading, Belkar's death is something he mentions in casual conversation with the expectation that everyone else will forget the information upon leaving the valley.

[Jannoire]

These are also not prophecies as in "paid for products". These are his ramblings about things that he learnt from seeing future that no-one asked about.

Even if the Oracle intentionally phrased the prophecies to be ambigous, unclear, or misleading, Belkar's death is something he mentions in casual conversation with the expectation that everyone else will forget the information upon leaving the valley.

Except for comic #572, where the oracle even pulled out his prophecy mode

[Peelee]

These are also not prophecies as in "paid for products". These are his ramblings about things that he learnt from seeing future that no-one asked about.

Even if the Oracle intentionally phrased the prophecies to be ambigous, unclear, or misleading, Belkar's death is something he mentions in casual conversation with the expectation that everyone else will forget the information upon leaving the valley.

Ya know, as much as I hammer on that being the only reason for the memory charm, I've never even thought about that aspect of it. Kudos!

[Doug Lampert]

DO you mean a sugar/cinnamon mix or sugar magically re-flavored to cinnamon?

I intended a sugar/cinnamon mix, but the other sounds fine too. Either one. Will a True Halfling put sugar on his porridge if it is mixed with cinnamon, or if it is flavored like cinnamon.

Both legitimate questions about the nature of true halflingdom.

[Scizor]

I intended a sugar/cinnamon mix, but the other sounds fine too. Either one. Will a True Halfling put sugar on his porridge if it is mixed with cinnamon, or if it is flavored like cinnamon.

Both legitimate questions about the nature of true halflingdom.

Sugar and cinnamon, accept no substitutes!

Also butter.

[littlebum2002]

That's the general family of "plot twists", yes.

It's a big family, however. "Literally true with unexpected context" is different from "figuratively true with expected context", "lying", "reasonably true if under different context", and "obviated by the author".

So you're saying it wasn't a twist even though it fits in the definition of the word "twist"?

[Jasdoif]

So has the "Belkar's prophesied 'death' is metaphorical" camp gained any more traction with this and other recent strips?The self-delusional hard line hasn't really moved in the past several years, no.The biggest mark against it (or, the hardest-to-argue-against for proponents) is a simple "why would the Oracle take such delight in gloating over the guy who killed him not getting any comeuppance at all?"No comeuppance? What about the Mark of Justice and the village of "Lickmyballshalfling"?The Oracle was brutally murdered and Belkar was sick for a week. Yeah, I'm sure the Oracle considers it even.

No clue how long Belkar was out for, actually.And B: has he ever given a straight prophecy with no twist?Come to think of it, only Durkon's was a twist, because he wasn't an inanimate corpse like we all thought he would be. So one. One had a twist.I object: It happened after Durkon died and Durkon was (still) dead; so there was no twist in saying it would happen "posthumously".

Like the rest of the Oracle's prophecies, there are no twists in the meaning of the words; only in the context/expectations of when they come true.I mean, isn't that basically what a twist is? A subversion of expectations, leading someone (such as Durkon) to expect one thing while in reality meaning something else entirely?That's the general family of "plot twists", yes.

It's a big family, however. "Literally true with unexpected context" is different from "figuratively true with expected context", "lying", "reasonably true if under different context", and "obviated by the author".So you're saying it wasn't a twist even though it fits in the definition of the word "twist"?Pretty sure I'm saying that twisting a twist as another kind of twist is just twisted. Much like manually assembling an eleven-layer quote to establish the context of the conversation....

The "metaphorical death" scenario would require the Oracle to abruptly break his pattern of "literally true with unexpected context" twists that's he's been doing consistently all along. Even if the Oracle is capable of doing it, I've yet to see any evidence nor reason for the Oracle to go through with it.

[Rogar Demonblud]

You're really having fun with nesting quotes this week. This one approaches art.:smallsmile:

[Jasdoif]

You're really having fun with nesting quotes this week. This one approaches art.:smallsmile:Even cosmic knowledge fish need an occasional reminder of what they were saying; and this week has been rather turbulent, and this conversation rather branchy o_o

[Emanick]

Pretty sure I'm saying that twisting a twist as another kind of twist is just twisted. Much like manually assembling an eleven-layer quote to establish the context of the conversation....

The "metaphorical death" scenario would require the Oracle to abruptly break his pattern of "literally true with unexpected context" twists that's he's been doing consistently all along. Even if the Oracle is capable of doing it, I've yet to see any evidence nor reason for the Oracle to go through with it.

I'm not sure the Oracle has a pattern in his prophecies. Which other prophecies were "literally true with unexpected context"? It's true that he seems to enjoy not being as helpful as possible, but beyond that, I'm struggling to see commonalities between the form of his answers. Belkar's, Roy's, and Elan's prophecies seem to have been fairly straightforward (although I guess we'll have to wait and see with Elan, technically), and while I personally would have found Haley's prophecy fairly useless, she seems to have found it helpful, despite the fact that it was basically the opposite of literal. It's true that he didn't have much choice as to what to tell Roy, given Roy's too-clever-by-half wording, but that was also a rare case of when he actually seemed to WANT to be helpful (albeit probably out of self-interest as much as anything else). Besides Durkon's prophecy, V's is the only other one where I could see "literally true with unexpected context" being a somewhat accurate description, and even then, I'd argue that his answer was too vague to really mislead in any way. It's only a case of "unexpected context" because he gave V pretty much no useful information around which to form expectations whatsoever, besides the fact that "yes, you will achieve ultimate arcane power."
Also, like Rogar, I would like to applaud your quote-nesting art.

[Schroeswald]

Due to the fact that I usually have two windows open side by side when I first saw that layering it was amazing, because the innermost layer was so thin that it wasn't even a character wide.

[Jasdoif]

Which other prophecies were "literally true with unexpected context"?Near as I can recall, all of them (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0331.html) that we've seen completed thus far have been true with the obvious meaning of the words.

Eugene: Xykon is what Fyron's killer is called.
Durkon: Did return home posthumously (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1084.html).
Vaarusvius: Did achieve complete and total arcane power by saying four words to the right beings (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0634.html) at the right time for the wrong reasons.
Haley: I suppose you could fault me for not coming up with a pithy phrase meaning "parses idioms but otherwise literal", but her refusal to question the opportunity with (who she thought was) Elan (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0382.html) did lead to getting her speech back (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0393.html).
Belkar: Certainly killed one of them (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0567.html)....
Roy: Xykon did arrive near Girard's Gate before Kraagor's Gate (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0899.html).

As you note, not all of these were twists; but they are all straightforwardly true in their meaning....So if prophecy about Belkar does have a twist, nothing supports it being due to a non-straightforward meaning; and a "metaphorical death" twist would be such a non-straightforward meaning.

(Layering the quotes in now would just be copy-and-pasting from my earlier post; where's the fun in that? Also, I wouldn't want Schroeswald's monitor to explode from the pressure.)

[Peelee]

You're really having fun with nesting quotes this week. This one approaches art.:smallsmile:

On my phone, the most nested one only displays as a single character per line. It is mighty impressive.

[danielxcutter]

Mine doesn’t squish the comments nearly as much. Weird. Is that a trait of iPhone 11s or something else?

[Schroeswald]

(Layering the quotes in now would just be copy-and-pasting from my earlier post; where's the fun in that? Also, I wouldn't want Schroeswald's monitor to explode from the pressure.)

I'm not certain it could get any more exploded than it was with that many quotes (also, the thing on my phone was one character long too, its not an IPhone 11s btw)

[Emanick]

Near as I can recall, all of them (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0331.html) that we've seen completed thus far have been true with the obvious meaning of the words.

Eugene: Xykon is what Fyron's killer is called.
Durkon: Did return home posthumously (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1084.html).
Vaarusvius: Did achieve complete and total arcane power by saying four words to the right beings (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0634.html) at the right time for the wrong reasons.
Haley: I suppose you could fault me for not coming up with a pithy phrase meaning "parses idioms but otherwise literal", but her refusal to question the opportunity with (who she thought was) Elan (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0382.html) did lead to getting her speech back (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0393.html).
Belkar: Certainly killed one of them (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0567.html)....
Roy: Xykon did arrive near Girard's Gate before Kraagor's Gate (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0899.html).

As you note, not all of these were twists; but they are all straightforwardly true in their meaning....So if prophecy about Belkar does have a twist, nothing supports it being due to a non-straightforward meaning; and a "metaphorical death" twist would be such a non-straightforward meaning.

(Layering the quotes in now would just be copy-and-pasting from my earlier post; where's the fun in that? Also, I wouldn't want Schroeswald's monitor to explode from the pressure.)

I think I see the issue now; you're just defining "straightforwardness" a lot more broadly than I am. To me, while The Oracle isn't given to lying, or strained interpretations of the truth, his answers seem to vary quite a bit in how straightforward they are. Giving a helpful, straightforward answer to some people, an answer so vague as to be of no use to anyone to others, and giving an answer that, while true, will obviously be taken the wrong way to still others doesn't strike me as being particularly consistent. I fully agree with you that there are no lies, half-truths, or any other kind of deceit there, though, so in that sense all of his answers are pretty straightforward and consistently honest.

The variation in his answers does strike me as significant enough that I wouldn't rule out tricksiness on principle when it comes to interpreting the prophecy about Belkar. That said, as has been noted by both me and plenty of other people, there isn't a convincing explanation for how to interpret the prophecy in any way besides "oh, he'll just straight-up die" unless you basically just assume The Oracle or his sources are liars. So the difference is more or less moot, I suppose.

[danielxcutter]

I don’t think the Oracle himself was trying to screw with Roy then. It’s not a “gotcha” like “in his throne room” and there isn’t really another way of interpreting it without stretching it far beyond credibility.

[The MunchKING]

OK, Here's a fun idea. What about a threefer?

So Belkar metaphorically dies. He changes alignment and sheds the old Belkar Persona. Then in the middle of a glorious rebirth of a new persona, Xykon SUPER Murders that guy, thus fulfilling the literal death requirements of the prophecy. THEN!! Then in a Divine Act by Banjo, Giggles, Whomever else they've roped into the pantheon by that point, and possibly the Dread Banthulu, they manage to deify him after his death (Like the Dark One before him) and make him the War God for their pantheon. Unfortunately for Belkar (But fortunately for us because it's funny) because of how belief works tied in with that pantheon, he can only manifest as a cute hand-puppet version of himself. :smallbiggrin:

There you go, all the "he dies/Doesn't REALLY die" angles wrapped up into one. And because it happens right near the end of the book, he doesn't really get written out of the story (for those that like him), but he gets a humiliating eternal comeuppance (for those that want to see him punished). It works for everyone! :smalltongue:

[danielxcutter]

Oooookaaaay?

[Rogar Demonblud]

Make it a three page strip and have Rich post it on the First of April. We might need to buy Rawhide a couple fire extinguishers for when the server explodes.

[factotum]

The Oracle's prophecies are straightforward to interpret *after* the event that they refer to. This is pretty much traditionally how prophecies work in fiction, because if you could figure them out ahead of time you'd take steps that might potentially change that outcome--e.g. in LOTR, where there was a prophecy that the Witch-King would not be killed by mortal man, so he was killed in the end by a woman and a hobbit working together. They're more of an "Oh, so *that* was what that meant?" for the reader than anything useful for the in-story characters, IMHO.

Having said that, we know that the Oracle must occasionally give advice which can be figured out, because he told Roy and Durkon where to find Xykon--after a little encouragement, of course.

[Peelee]

The Oracle's prophecies are straightforward to interpret *after* the event that they refer to. This is pretty much traditionally how prophecies work in fiction, because if you could figure them out ahead of time you'd take steps that might potentially change that outcome

I would say that traditionally prophecies may also be super straightforward despite taking steps to potentially change them. The most obvious example being Oedipus Tyrannus - either the prophevy knew Oedipus would be cast out as a result of the prophecy, or no matter what steps were taken Oedipus would have played kill/marry/well the third one kind of goes with the second in this case.

In any event, 100% straightforward prophecy.

[Jasdoif]

I've seen chili recipes with cinnamon in them. Even made them once or twice. I don't have a personal chili recipe yet, but you'd be surprised what cinnamon can add in the right combination.I'd use allspice instead of cinnamon, myself.

[KorvinStarmast]

I'd use allspice instead of cinnamon, myself.

I tried that. Cinnamon seems to work better. YMMV.

[Mic_128]

Near as I can recall, all of them (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0331.html) that we've seen completed thus far have been true with the obvious meaning of the words.

Roy: Xykon did arrive near Girard's Gate before Kraagor's Gate (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0899.html).

Huh. Now that you mention that, I just realised there was really only was a period of a few seconds that let this prediction be true.

[Peelee]

Huh. Now that you mention that, I just realised there was really only was a period of a few seconds that let this prediction be true.

Only a few seconds would ever let any "which will he be within a thousand feet of first" claim be true. Once it's done, it's done.

[Kantaki]

I think I see the issue now; you're just defining "straightforwardness" a lot more broadly than I am. To me, while The Oracle isn't given to lying, or strained interpretations of the truth, his answers seem to vary quite a bit in how straightforward they are. Giving a helpful, straightforward answer to some people, an answer so vague as to be of no use to anyone to others, and giving an answer that, while true, will obviously be taken the wrong way to still others doesn't strike me as being particularly consistent. I fully agree with you that there are no lies, half-truths, or any other kind of deceit there, though, so in that sense all of his answers are pretty straightforward and consistently honest.

The variation in his answers does strike me as significant enough that I wouldn't rule out tricksiness on principle when it comes to interpreting the prophecy about Belkar. That said, as has been noted by both me and plenty of other people, there isn't a convincing explanation for how to interpret the prophecy in any way besides "oh, he'll just straight-up die" unless you basically just assume The Oracle or his sources are liars. So the difference is more or less moot, I suppose.

Straightforward doesn't equal helpful though.
The Oracle is always the former- more or less, he does use metaphors and proverbs on occasion* -but not the latter.

*Although by oracle standards that is straightforward I would say.

[bunsen_h]

Straightforward doesn't equal helpful though.
The Oracle is always the former- more or less, he does use metaphors and proverbs on occasion* -but not the latter.

*Although by oracle standards that is straightforward I would say.

When the prophecy is with regard to an event that one is trying to prevent, and is of the "this is definitely going to happen" variety, it pretty much has to be that way. The prophecy has to be either obscure enough that one can't understand it until after the fact, or "circular" such that attempts to prevent the event actually bring it about, or the event is so overwhelming that no attempt to prevent it can succeed. Elan's "Will this story have a happy ending?" got a straightforward answer.

I find it interesting that the Oracle was trying very hard to give Roy a useful answer, despite his strong antipathy to Roy. My guess is that the Oracle had foreseen something of the coming events and wanted to try to prevent them. It would appear that there was some flexibility to the future, where Roy having better information could have created an outcome that the Oracle would have preferred.

[factotum]

Huh. Now that you mention that, I just realised there was really only was a period of a few seconds that let this prediction be true.

Depends...one could easily argue that "arriving near Girard's Gate" still applies if you arrive in the location where the Gate used to be even after it blew up, so if Xykon arrived a few seconds later the prophecy would be just as true.

[Jasdoif]

Depends...one could easily argue that "arriving near Girard's Gate" still applies if you arrive in the location where the Gate used to be even after it blew up, so if Xykon arrived a few seconds later the prophecy would be just as true.Especially since both Roy and the Oracle talked about locations.

That said, I would be remiss not to mention....
Team Evil showing up right as the Gate exploded was a gag that I had planned ever since the Oracle told Roy that Xykon was going there. Part of the fun of using prophecies is subverting expectations, and in this case the expectation was that if Xykon got near a Gate, he would be a major factor in the battle for control of it.

[danielxcutter]

I’m pretty sure he can’t see everything in the future - he bemoans that he always gets caught in the middle of his bath or something.

[Emanick]

I’m pretty sure he can’t see everything in the future - he bemoans that he always gets caught in the middle of his bath or something.

I never saw that as an indication that there are things he can't see. It's not that he can't see everything, it's just that he doesn't specifically look into the future to see every last detail. I wouldn't, either - life would get boring.

He probably only checks for significant events in his own future, like life-threatening occasions or the arrival of important clients. Probably some other things he's curious about, too. Looking into the future every morning to predict every single thing that will happen in your day would be make life deathly dull.

[InvisibleBison]

I never saw that as an indication that there are things he can't see. It's not that he can't see everything, it's just that he doesn't specifically look into the future to see every last detail. I wouldn't, either - life would get boring.

He probably only checks for significant events in his own future, like life-threatening occasions or the arrival of important clients. Probably some other things he's curious about, too. Looking into the future every morning to predict every single thing that will happen in your day would be make life deathly dull.

On the other hand, given that the Oracle has broken the fourth wall on multiple occasions, it could be that he did look ahead and see when the Order was going to arrive, and decided to be taking a shower at that time to set up a joke.

[Peelee]

Given that he can't stop his own deaths, I fail to see why he couldn't stop from getting interrupted in the bath. Either he doesn't look and is surprised, or dies look and it doesn't matter because his bath gets interrupted anyway.

[bunsen_h]

Given that he can't stop his own deaths, I fail to see why he couldn't stop from getting interrupted in the bath.

It may be a condition of his work or abilities that he's not allowed to try to prevent them.

He may also get a kick out of delivering news so unpleasant that the recipient takes revenge that way.

[Rogar Demonblud]

I find it interesting that the Oracle was trying very hard to give Roy a useful answer, despite his strong antipathy to Roy. My guess is that the Oracle had foreseen something of the coming events and wanted to try to prevent them. It would appear that there was some flexibility to the future, where Roy having better information could have created an outcome that the Oracle would have preferred.

Given that the Oracle made a point of being unavailable when Xykon came calling, it may be a simple case that he hates mammals less than that lich.

[Peelee]

It may be a condition of his work or abilities that he's not allowed to try to prevent them.
Or it's just a classic Eodipal prophecy; it's going to happen no matter what. Which is much simpler than additional rules and restrictions on his abilities.

He may also get a kick out of delivering news so unpleasant that the recipient takes revenge that way.
Didn't seem too thrilled with spinning his yarn to Belkar.

[danielxcutter]

Given that the Oracle made a point of being unavailable when Xykon came calling, it may be a simple case that he hates mammals less than that lich.

If he has an iota of a clue what Xykon has done and is willing to do... don’t blame him, really.

[Kantaki]

Given that the Oracle made a point of being unavailable when Xykon came calling, it may be a simple case that he hates mammals less than that lich.

It's more about what Xykon'd do if he doesn't like what he hears. Or even if he does.
Dude's a jerk.

Which most people it rarely escalates beyond the occasional window dangling, maybe there's a rez required once in a few month.
Nothing you can't walk off in the long run.

Xykon on the other hand...
Let's just say needing a resurrection'd be the least of your worries when he really gets going.
In the best case it's over quick and someone has to destroy your zombie before bringing you back.
Worst case he takes his time and soulbinds you.

[Quizatzhaderac]

Given that the Oracle made a point of being unavailable when Xykon came calling, it may be a simple case that he hates mammals less than that lich.A mammalian lich.

Sure, he no longer has hair or mammaries, and his mammaries never worked, but once a no good teat-sucker, always a no good teat-sucker.

Speaking fantastically racist characters, did the elven special ops captain ever meet any goblin zombies? Did he accept that they were now "good" goblins?

[The MunchKING]

Dead, Not Undead.