Feats and PrCs for advancing two classes at once.

[Saint-Just]

I know there is a few PrC which advance your spellcasting simultaneously in two classes you had before taking this class. Ultimate Magus, Mystic Theurge, Cerebremancer (ok, this one advances casting and manifesting).

I know there are also a series of feats (Ascetic Stalker, Daring Outlaw) which allow you to treat the sum of levels in two classes for the purpose of some class features.

I would like to ask:
a) Is there any PrC which allows "dual progression" to non-casters? E.g. each level improves your monk traits and your paladin traits. I know that there feats for that purpose, but is there official PrC?
b) I have tried and failed o find some index of dual-advancing PrC. Can someone point me in the right direction?
c) Is there other feat lines besides "Ascetic" and "Daring" with similar effects?

[edited some mentions of "class" to "PrC" for better legibility]

[bean illus]

Well, no. Because base classes have their own features. There are a few prcs that can be cheesed, but martials can't have nice things.

Check ... Battle Trickster, and Legacy Champion, maybe.

[SirNibbles]

I know there is a few PrC which advance your spellcasting simultaneously in two classes you had before taking this class. Ultimate Magus, Mystic Theurge, Cerebremancer (ok, this one advances casting and manifesting).

I know there are also a series of feats (Ascetic Stalker, Daring Outlaw) which allow you to treat the sum of levels in two classes for the purpose of some class features.

I would like to ask:
a) Is there any class which allows "dual progression" to non-casters? E.g. each level improves your monk traits and your paladin traits. I know that there feats for that purpose, but is there official PrC?
b) I have tried and failed o find some index of dual-advancing classes. Can someone point me in the right direction?
c) Is there other feat lines besides "Ascetic" and "Daring" with similar effects?

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?210550-Multiclassing-Feats

1. Yes, but I can't remember any at the moment. There are definitely some that advance things like Druid/Ranger Companions or Favored Enemy or Monk Damage, but I can't recall which do multiple of these things at once.

2. No.

3. See link.

[Kayblis]

a)The best you'll find in general terms is probably PrCs that advance a base class' features, while giving you new ones. The only exception I can remember right now is Shadow Sun Ninja from ToB, which advances monk features as well as initiator maneuvers, stances and IL. That's dual progression with no casting. Also, any PrC from ToB progresses IL for all initiator classes and lets you pick maneuvers/stances for whatever class you already have, so you could say they're all dual progression classes for initiators.

b) I believe someone else can help with that one, as I've never seen it.

c) You have the Master Spellthief, that lets you advance a Spellthief's steal spell ability as well as stacking CL for all arcane classes. That's a different kind of double casting, and can be used for CL shenanigans.

[ciopo]

put a feeler out for how gestalt would be welcomed?

[Saint-Just]

put a feeler out for how gestalt would be welcomed?

This is a theorycrafting ATM.

I also should note that I meant other dual-advancing PrC, not base classes.

[Ramza00]

Tashalatora feat which requires Monastic Training feat from Secrets of Sarlona (3.5 eberron)

Your levels in the psionic class you selected for Monastic Training stack with your monk levels to determine your AC bonus, flurry of blows attacks, and unarmed damage from the monk class.

Tashalatora and Monastic Training are monk bonus feats so you can take them for Monk 1 and Monk 2.

So in sum Psionic X/ Monk 2/ More Psionic X is 18 levels of X, and 20 levels for most Monk benefits.

[animewatcha]

Monastic training I can see as bonus feat, but where does it say that Tashlatora is?

[Kelb_Panthera]

Faiths of Eberron's Argent Fist gives advancement to a number of monk and paladin features. It's pretty much the only PrC I can think of that advances the features of two non-caster classes explicitly.

[Thurbane]

Troacctid has made a pretty solid home-brew PrC that does this: Prestige Class: Gestalt Theurge (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?427306)

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Illithid savant, legacy champion, uncanny trickster, true necromancer, jade phoenix mage, soulcaster, soul manifester, mind mage, and psychic theurge all fall in this category.

If you have the Magic mantle (from C.Psi), Supernatural Transformation (Psionics) kind of does this. It boosts all of your manifester levels up to your HD (plus additional bonuses), so you can multiclass in manifesting classes and still keep your ML high. It works especially well with ardent, since your powers known are based on your ML, not your class level.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

There're quite a few feats that allow a certain degree of dual progression for martials. You already mentioned Ascetic Knight, Ascetic Hunter, and Ascetic Rogue, which work for Monk + /Paladin /Ranger /Rogue respectively. Devoted Tracker gives some benefits to Ranger/Paladins. Swift Ambusher and Swift Hunter are probably the best here (on par with Daring Outlaw), as they advance the core mechanic of Scout with Rogue or Ranger levels respectively.

For prestige classes, if you subscribe to the school of thought that says any prestige class fully advances your initiator level (ToB), then that's a form of dual progression. Other than that, the only one I can think of is Halfling Outrider, which simultaneously advances your paladin mount and your animal companion... which can potentially triple advance your mount if you're a Ranger/Druid/Paladin with Devoted Tracker.

EDIT: Oh, and if you count Incarnum as closer to martial than to Vancian spellcasting, there's also Totem Rager (Totemist/Barbarian).

[ExLibrisMortis]

There's an awful PrC that combines soulknife and monk, the Atavist.

[Ramza00]

Monastic training I can see as bonus feat, but where does it say that Tashlatora is?

Did this partially from memory and I was wrong, Monastic Training is a Monk Bonus Feat, Tashalatora really should be but it not listed so with the required "Special: A monk can take this feat as his bonus feat at 1st, 2nd, or 6th level."

[Kelb_Panthera]

There's an awful PrC that combines soulknife and monk, the Atavist.

I'm pretty sure the intent there was to advance one or the other but the way the text is written does indeed advance both.

Lean into it. Select soulknife with your monastic training and tashalatora feats before going into atavist. At least it's a neat race in the racial requirement.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I'm pretty sure the intent there was to advance one or the other but the way the text is written does indeed advance both.

Lean into it. Select soulknife with your monastic training and tashalatora feats before going into atavist. At least it's a neat race in the racial requirement.Seems to me like the atavist levels or Tashalatora (and Monastic Training) would be a waste. Remember, Tashalatora (Soulknife) would not be advanced by atavist.

[DwarvenWarCorgi]

Troacctid has made a pretty solid home-brew PrC that does this: Prestige Class: Gestalt Theurge (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?427306)
Troacctid also put together a great spreadsheet for dual casting PrCs, dont have a link on my phone, will add from my tablet later if someone else doesnt link it.

Theres a dungeon mag with a monk special that has 4 Prcs that advance mon and something else simultaneously.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Seems to me like the atavist levels or Tashalatora (and Monastic Training) would be a waste. Remember, Tashalatora (Soulknife) would not be advanced by atavist.

The flurry and AC bonus don't advance for those 10 levels but there's 10 more on either side of it. The unarmed strike is advanced directly by atavist so it still ends up at the same level as a straight tashalatora soulknife.

[Biggus]

Champion of Gwynharwyf (BoED) combines many of the best features of Paladin and Barbarian. It's CG only so the standard Paladin can't be combined with it, but Paladin of Freedom (UA) works. One of its prerequisite feats is terrible but apart from that it's pretty awesome.

[Psyren]

Advancing two non-caster classes completely is rare, but advancing some features from both is doable. For example two PrCs have some monk+paladin advancement - Eberron's Argent Fist, and Golarion's Champion of Irori. Neither advances everything from their base classes but they do let you "theurge" them to an extent.

[HouseRules]

Prestige Class and Hybrid Class in general should only advance 3/4 of two classes.
Otherwise, they are too strong compared to the pure single classes.

[Telonius]

An explicitly martial one that hasn't been mentioned yet: the Martial Stalker feat (CSco). It lets Fighter and Ninja levels stack to determine your Ki pool, AC bonus, and qualification for Fighter feats.

[SirNibbles]

An explicitly martial one that hasn't been mentioned yet: the Martial Stalker feat (CSco). It lets Fighter and Ninja levels stack to determine your Ki pool, AC bonus, and qualification for Fighter feats.


https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?210550-Multiclassing-Feats



I am interested in locating the various feats that allow multiclassing via making up for lost levels or class theurgy.

Virtual Levels(add pseudo-levels capped at HD):
Chaos Music (Dragon 326): +4 Bard levels for the purpose of Bardic Music power/effects.
Chaos Rage (Dragon 326): +4 Barbarian levels when determining the power of Rage.
Natural Bond (CAd): +3 to Druid level for Animal Companion.
Practiced Manifester (CPsi): +4 ML.
Practiced Spellcaster (CAr): +4 CL.
Superior Unarmed Strike (ToB): +4 to Monk level for unarmed damage (note: not capped at HD).


Theurge Feats (stack two class levels for the purpose of certain abilities):

Ascetic Hunter (CAd): Monk & Ranger levels stack for unarmed damage, bonus to Stinning Fist DC vs Favored Enemy.
Ascetic Knight (CAd): Monk & Paladin levels stack for unarmed and Smite Evil damage, free multiclassin betwwen them.
Ascetic Mage (CAd): Monk & Sorcerer levels stack for AC bonus, Cha replaces Wis to AC, sacrifice spell slots to gain bonus unarmed damage.
Ascetic Rogue (CAd): Monk & Rogue levels stack for unarmed damage, bonus to Stunning Fist DC on a SA.
Ascetic Stalker (CS): Monk & Ninja levels stack for unarmed damage and ki pool.
Daring Outlaw (CS): Roue & Swashbuckler levels stack for SA, race, and Dodge.
Daring Warrior (CS): Fighter & Swashbuckler levels stack for Grace, Dodge Bonus, and effective Fihter level.
Devoted Performer (CAd): Bard & Paladin levels stack for Bardic Music uses/day and Smite Evil damage.
Devoted Tracker (CAd): Paladin & Ranger levels stack for Smite Evil damage and Wild Empathy, Special Mount and Animal Companion can be the same creature.
Divine Inspiration (Draon 333): Bard & Cleric levels stack for Bardic Music.
Holy Mount (Dragon 325): Any other divine spellcasting classes count for progressing Paladin's Special Mount.
Initiate of Milil (CoV): Bard, Cleric, & Paladin levels stack for Bardic Music.
Martial Stalker (CS): Fighter and Ninja levels stack for ki pool, AC bonus, and effective Fighter level.
Master Spellthief (CS): Arcane Caster & Spellthief levels stack for Arcane CL and maximum level of spells stolen (cast all Arcane spells in Liht Armor).
Sacred Outlaw (Dragon 357): Rogue & Cleric stack for progressing Turn Undead as well as Sneak Attack.
Sacred Performer (Dragon 357): Bard & Cleric stack for Bardic Knowledge & uses of bardic music as well as Turn Undead.
Son of the White Raven: Warblade or Crusader levels & Bard levels stack for Inspire Courage. Activate IC as a swift action.
Swift Ambusher (CS): Rogue & Scout levels stack for Skirmish (but not SA).
Swift Avenger (Dragon 357): Druid & Scout stack for skirmish & wildshapes per day, but not the sizes & types of creatures.
Swift Hunter (CS): Ranger & Scout levels stack for Favored Enemy and Skirmish (also skirmish against FE even if immune).
Theurgic Bond(Dragon 325): Choose 1: Spellcasting classes with familiar progression counts towards progressing animal companion. OR Spellcasting classes with animal companion progression count towards progressing familiar. Can take once per animal companion or familiar.
Theurgic Mount(Dragon 325): Arcane spellcasting classes count for progressing Paladin's Special Mount.




It's been noted.

[Ramza00]

Prestige Class and Hybrid Class in general should only advance 3/4 of two classes.
Otherwise, they are too strong compared to the pure single classes.

What is the logic for 3/4 instead of another number like 2/3 or 4/5.

Especially since many Hybrid Feats require a specific amount of levels in a class with some class feature prerequisite saying you need 1, 2, 3, sometimes even 4 levels before the feat or class suddenly kicks in.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Prestige Class and Hybrid Class in general should only advance 3/4 of two classes.
Otherwise, they are too strong compared to the pure single classes.If a PrC requires levels in two (or more) classes, you'll always be behind in those classes, even if the PrC grants full abilities for both, and if it keeps you far enough behind (which isn't much, for some things), it can even give you abilities on top and still be less powerful than a single-classed individual for any of the classes involved.

Let's say mystic theurge couldn't be entered early because the prerequisites require "five levels each in two spellcasting classes." There's no way to get out of that,* even if you have a class that grants both arcane and divine casting in one, because it explicitly requires two classes. You're three spell levels behind in everything. That gives a lot of leeway to grant additional abilities to help you keep up, even though it grants full casting after that point.




*Although if you went with a PrC that granted its own spellcasting like sublime chord... Hmm...

[HouseRules]

If a character takes two base classes and a hybrid prestige class, it usually ends up with a total of 30 levels of progression in 20 ECL, with a split.
The usual build is X/X/Y where X is the number of level in a base class and Y is the number of level in the dual progression prestige class.
The minimum is 12 and maximum is 18, but the sum should be approximately 30; at least for most of those dual progression prestige classes.
A 15/15 split is 3/4 on both sides, even if the prestige class gives full progression for both sides in 10 levels; and 5 levels to each base class.
Of course, players that chases optimization could get better progression.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Prestige Class and Hybrid Class in general should only advance 3/4 of two classes.
Otherwise, they are too strong compared to the pure single classes.Oh, also, advancing two classes in their entirety, even if you start at level 1 (basically gestalting them) isn't unbalanced if both classes, for lack of a better descriptive, suck.

You could gestalt every T4 and below and still only end up with a T3. Granted, a decently powerful T3, but still. You wouldn't get anywhere near the power of a T2, and you'd only be scraping the versatility of higher level T1's bootheels without some serious optimization. But at that level of op-fu, the T1s and T2s would still blow you away.

Just a thought.

[HouseRules]

Oh, also, advancing two classes in their entirety, even if you start at level 1 (basically gestalting them) isn't unbalanced if both classes, for lack of a better descriptive, suck.

You could gestalt every T4 and below and still only end up with a T3. Granted, a decently powerful T3, but still. You wouldn't get anywhere near the power of a T2, and you'd only be scraping the versatility of higher level T1's bootheels without some serious optimization. But at that level of op-fu, the T1s and T2s would still blow you away.

Just a thought.

The Tier System assumes you character craft everything, and cannot use the wealth by level to buy level appropriate equipment.
Of course, with level appropriate equipment, most T5 classes would be lower T4.

The developers still allowed magic to be broken compared to non-magic.
Most dual progression gives total 30 for caster on both sides type, but less than 30 for hybrid dual progressions gish types or martial on both sides type.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

The Tier System assumes you character craft everything, and cannot use the wealth by level to buy level appropriate equipment.
Of course, with level appropriate equipment, most T5 classes would be lower T4.It only takes into account class abilities, and T1 and T2 classes' spell lists are vastly more varied and powerful than those of the lower tiers, and infinitely so more than classes who don't get spells at all.

The only exception is the truenamer, who needs an exacting list of hard-to-find items just to be able to function at all.

You cannot take items into account, because you can't account for every group and how they handle wealth.

Sure, giving that level 1 fighter a +10 sword o' doom that gives access to the entire wizard spell list would give him a boost, but at that point it's not a fighter build. It's a crazy-go-nuts sword with a few hit points and limbs attached.

[edit]

The Sword of the Arcane Order feat allows you to prepare wizard spells in paladin and ranger spell slots.

Now, what happens if you have a cleric/prestige paladin with SotAO? Do you get a mystic theurge with just cleric levels?

[NotASpiderSwarm]

Prestige Class and Hybrid Class in general should only advance 3/4 of two classes.
Otherwise, they are too strong compared to the pure single classes.Absolutely not true. Look at Mystic Theurge, the original hybrid PRC. You get full caster progression in 2 separate classes, and lose nothing from Wizard except Familiar progression. And it sucks. Casting a LOT of 3rd level spells at level 9 is just so much worse than casting 1 5th level spell per combat. Entry requirements and MAD make it much, much harder to make a good theurge than it should be. There are plenty that are worth it, sure, Swift Hunter being the perfect example, but most of those involve combining similar classes where there's only one feature lacking from each so that you get both of those features, and even then there's plenty of guides that will tell you it's not worth the trouble.

Action economy says you can only do one thing per round, so any resources taken away from that one thing you do so you can do something else is, if not a waste, at least an investment that needs to pay off big. Most Theurge classes and feats require 3 levels in something other than your main focus, plus other expenditures. That's not cheap, and the rewards need to be worth it. Making someone lose other advancement on top of that(True Necromancer) is just an easy way to guarantee that the class will make anyone who attempts to play it truly miserable.

[Saint-Just]

Absolutely not true. Look at Mystic Theurge, the original hybrid PRC. You get full caster progression in 2 separate classes, and lose nothing from Wizard except Familiar progression. And it sucks. Casting a LOT of 3rd level spells at level 9 is just so much worse than casting 1 5th level spell per combat. Entry requirements and MAD make it much, much harder to make a good theurge than it should be. There are plenty that are worth it, sure, Swift Hunter being the perfect example, but most of those involve combining similar classes where there's only one feature lacking from each so that you get both of those features, and even then there's plenty of guides that will tell you it's not worth the trouble.


By the "should only advance 3\4 of the two classes" they have probably meant that taking in account entry requirements you should get no more than 3\4 of a single-class abilities at any level (i.e. Clr3/Wiz3/MT8 is a 14-level character with a spellcasting abilities of 11 level Cleric and 11 level Wizard) not that hybrid PRCs should have less than full caster progression.

[Malphegor]

It only takes into account class abilities, and T1 and T2 classes' spell lists are vastly more varied and powerful than those of the lower tiers, and infinitely so more than classes who don't get spells at all.

The only exception is the truenamer, who needs an exacting list of hard-to-find items just to be able to function at all.

You cannot take items into account, because you can't account for every group and how they handle wealth.

Sure, giving that level 1 fighter a +10 sword o' doom that gives access to the entire wizard spell list would give him a boost, but at that point it's not a fighter build. It's a crazy-go-nuts sword with a few hit points and limbs attached.

[edit]

The Sword of the Arcane Order feat allows you to prepare wizard spells in paladin and ranger spell slots.

Now, what happens if you have a cleric/prestige paladin with SotAO? Do you get a mystic theurge with just cleric levels?

As I understand it most people frown on SOTAO using Prestige Paladin to qualify for things that require Paladin spell slots since your spell slots come from your original class not through being a Paladin. People have argued with me also that a prestige paladin is not the same as a true Paladin which is... weird. Like I get they’re seperate classes but you still end up as a crusading divine magic knight on a horse so it’s basically the same to become one as being born one.

I know my DM would say its ok though, but in general people feel dubious about it.

Which is a shame because it would make playing an archivist/prestige paladin really fun and avoid mucking about with contemplative domains for those rare few spells not covered in some divine class somewhere.

[NotASpiderSwarm]

As I understand it most people frown on SOTAO using Prestige Paladin to qualify for things that require Paladin spell slots since your spell slots come from your original class not through being a Paladin. People have argued with me also that a prestige paladin is not the same as a true Paladin which is... weird. Like I get they’re seperate classes but you still end up as a crusading divine magic knight on a horse so it’s basically the same to become one as being born one.

I know my DM would say its ok though, but in general people feel dubious about it.

Which is a shame because it would make playing an archivist/prestige paladin really fun and avoid mucking about with contemplative domains for those rare few spells not covered in some divine class somewhere.I'm pretty similar to you. Prestige Paladin/Bard/etc aren't themselves broken, or even concerning, but stacking a second PRC on top of them starts getting odd. It's pretty clear that Lyric Thamaturge was not written with Prestige Bard in mind, for example. If it's natural outgrowth of a character, say a Cleric wants to get a bit more fighty and goes Prestige Paladin before swapping to a Paladin PRC? I'd be fine. But a premade build going Cleric 5/Prestige Paladin 3/Paladin prestige class with full caster progression would be worth a second look from me.

[NigelWalmsley]

I'm pretty similar to you. Prestige Paladin/Bard/etc aren't themselves broken, or even concerning, but stacking a second PRC on top of them starts getting odd. It's pretty clear that Lyric Thamaturge was not written with Prestige Bard in mind, for example.

Well, yeah. Because it's pretty medium if you're putting it on top of normal casting progression. An extra 2nd level spell known at 9th level? That'll be great for my Wizard, who is now casting 5th level spells. Broadly, I don't think there's anything you can do by messing around with Prestige Whatever that is better than what you could do normally. You could work out a way to get Wizard spells via SOTAO as an Archivist. But none of the Archivist's problems are "doesn't have enough spells to choose from", so who cares?