Is it worth it for an Illusionist Wizard to multi-class into Warlock?

[Citadel97501]

Hello all, I was wondering how you all feel about an Illusionist multi-classing into Warlock for some of the invocation effects? Really what gets my attention is Misty Visions, and Armor of Shadows as they both would reduce your spell slot expense quite a bit, along with providing you more benefits for short rest recovery.?

Now I freely note that at higher levels its going to be much better to take more wizard levels, and you will still be a spell level behind but it seems at first look that the benefits are worth it.

[Anymage]

Armor of Shadows is a waste that's only remotely justifiable if you use it to speed recharge the abjurer's ward. (Even then it isn't really that good, it just doesn't feel like a total waste.) Anything else, a pure wiz/sorcerer isn't too set back by the one slot for Mage Armor while anybody else - including, most notably, anybody who has any levels in warlock - can just wear studded leather. One point of difference isn't much out the gate, and then magic armors can meet or surpass the first level spell.

Misty Image might be okay if you see your character leaning in hard on the illusions, but keep in mind that Minor Image can do many of the same things as a freely spammable cantrip. Slightly larger, longer duration images might be nice for the broader repertoire, but personally speaking they aren't nice enough to justify delaying spell levels. Or illusionist features.

And of course, you have to face the MAD problem. It's doable if you just want to spawn illusions of you pulling things out of thin air like a looney tunes character, but your warlock side illusions will be easy to see through and won't be more than fluff. Add in the fact that you can't really embrace the beauty of Eldritch Blast like a Cha caster can, and the levels aren't really worth it for what you're giving up.

[Segev]

No, minor illusion only does objects. Silent image does creatures and phenomena. It is definitely better. One of my biggest complaints in 5e is that, prior to level 6, Warlocks are hands-down better illusionists than illusionist wizards. From 6-10th level, warlocks arguably are still better, just not quite as much. Only with 6th level spell slots and permanent-duration Major Images does the illusionist catch up and surpass the warlock.

A two level dip of warlock is expensive to an illusionist. The ability to use Malleable Illusions on your Misty Visions isn’t that great when you can just recast it. It’s not nothing, but it’s not great. But misty visions is better than what the illusionist gets before level 11.

[samcifer]

My fiancé once played an illusionst wizard with only moderate intelligence and his only spell that could do damage was firebolt. It/he was very ineffective.

[Segev]

My fiancé once played an illusionst wizard with only moderate intelligence and his only spell that could do damage was firebolt. It/he was very ineffective.
I don’t know what that has to do with taking or not taking a dip into Warlock.

[Bobthewizard]

I would say no. I've considered it but here is my thinking. The benefit of misty visions to an illusionist is the unlimited silent image to combine with the illusionist's 14th level illusory realty. So you'd want to get to wizard 14 before you multi class. At that point, I don't think putting off Wish is worth the unlimited illusory realty, especially when you get spell mastery at wizard 18 which gives you the same thing. So I'd go wizard 17 for sure. Then either 18 for spell mastery or sorcerer 3 for subtle meta magic.

I love misty visions on a warlock, but I'm not sure it synergizes well enough with illusionist to justify being 2 levels behind in your wizard progression.

[Segev]

What I would genuinely recommend to any low-level Illusionist is to try to talk the DM into allowing you to find, make, beg, borrow, or steal a Wand of Silent Image. There isn't any such printed item, but if you compare to other wands of first level spells, it should probably be an uncommon item that requires attunement by a spellcaster, has 7 charges, and recharges 1d4+3 charges every day. Disintegrates on a roll of a 1 on 1d20 if you use up the last charge.

[samcifer]

I don’t know what that has to do with taking or not taking a dip into Warlock.

It just made me remember him doing that, is all. We still tease him about it, esp. since it was an evil campaign and he was doing the least damage in battle out of all of us as a band of amoral killers.

[SLOTHRPG95]

If you're not going to reach 18th level in a given campaign, then I might consider a 2-level Warlock dip to pick up both Misty Visions and Mask of Many Faces. It's not necessarily the strongest choice, but it's still thematic as all heck. And as has been pointed out, Minor Illusion is great but it has some serious limitations that just aren't an issue with Silent Image. With that said, timing the two-level dip would be hard. I'd definitely wait 'til after 5th level, and probably after 6th, but from there it'd be partially a question of how ASI-hungry I was feeling, and partially how much I wanted higher-level spells faster. 3rd level spells are still effective at 8th level, resp. 4th at 10th, etc. so I don't think I'd care too much about that, but that's personal preference and I know a lot of people would find the slowed spell progression frustrating.

[Chronos]

On the other hand, Minor Illusion isn't concentration, but Silent Image is. Give it time, and you can have ten Minor Illusions out at once. That can be a big deal, too.

[Segev]

On the other hand, Minor Illusion isn't concentration, but Silent Image is. Give it time, and you can have ten Minor Illusions out at once. That can be a big deal, too.

The spell specifically forbids more than one at a time. Cast a second minor illusion, and the current one expires immediately. This is one of the reasons why the Illusionist level 2 power looks so attractive: you can have both an image and a sound illusion up at once! The trouble remaining that you're basically still just getting two distinct illusions that can't complement each other very well.

Which means that there's not much difference between an Illusionist and anybody else who has minor illusion in terms of how you can really use your freebie illusions. Best possible stunt I can think of is for a Small Illusionist to hide in an illusory rock and make his voice sound like it's coming from 30 feet away.

[NecessaryWeevil]

Unless your DM really lets you kick butt with illusions, or you're determined to roleplay as someone who uses nothing else, it's going to be painful that you're also delaying access to your higher level *non*-illusion spells.

[Tanarii]

If multiclassing is allowed, absolutely worth it to start as an archfey* warlock and then start leveling as an illusionist at level 3. Misty Visions and Mask of Many Faces are outstanding invocations that make warlocks far superior illusionists to illusionist wizards, at least in Tier 1 and 2.

The biggest downside is you need a Cha of at least 13. Cha usually being a wizards 5th stat after Int, Dex/Con, and Wis. Second biggest downside is delayed spell progression. It's not a cost-less decision.


*Pact may vary, I just think of archfey as the illusion warlocks

[Segev]

If multiclassing is allowed, absolutely worth it to start as an archfey* warlock and then start leveling as an illusionist at level 3. Misty Visions and Mask of Many Faces are outstanding invocations that make warlocks far superior illusionists to illusionist wizards, at least in Tier 1 and 2.

The biggest downside is you need a Cha of at least 13. Cha usually being a wizards 5th stat after Int, Dex/Con, and Wis. Second biggest downside is delayed spell progression. It's not a cost-less decision.


*Pact may vary, I just think of archfey as the illusion warlocks

The honest and genuine trouble I run into with this is the following question: Why bother multiclassing into Illusionist after this point at all? You're not getting Malleable Illusions until level 8 or 9 (depending on whether you stuck it out for the Pact or not), and even when you do, it's barely useful compared to your ability to cast silent image at will. Sure, it's nice on your major image, which you got at level 7 or 8, but you have so few of those, especially for this level.

If your DM is open to customizing classes, you could get a lot of mileage out of asking to trade your Patron's level 6 ability (whatever it is) for Malleable Illusions, and the ability to take an upcast major image as your first Mystic Arcanum. Once per day, you can make a permanent major image that you can manipulate via Malleable Illusions! This is absolutely homebrew and DM-permission territory, but if you're going to be playing an illusionist only for low-to-mid levels, it will make you better at your scthick for the majority of it, and you'll not lose out compared to what you would have gotten at the tail end.

I wouldn't do it in a party with an illusionist wizard, though, and there are valid reasons not to want to play warlock illusionist, fluff and mechanically. But it probably isn't, on its own, overpowered as a redesign, and if you're dedicated to illusionism at low levels will be a smoother experience, I think, going up through at least 13th level.

But leaving the homebrew option aside, multiclassing for two levels of warlock eliminates most of the reason to play an illusionist at all prior to wizard level 11, because there's so little you get from illusionist wizard that Misty Visions doesn't give you better options for until you get 6th level spell slots. AND it delays you to level 13 (overall) to GET those 6th level spell slots.

[Tanarii]

Why go wizard? Because you want long rest spell slots, minor illusion sight and sound at the same time, or access to illusion and other spells that wizards get and warlocks don't.

If you don't want those things you're fine,

[Segev]

Why go wizard? Because you want long rest spell slots, minor illusion sight and sound at the same time, or access to illusion and other spells that wizards get and warlocks don't.

If you don't want those things you're fine,

I always feel the need to reiterate, in case readers don't know any better, that minor illusion sight and sound are very hard to make work together.

...maybe Illusionists should get, in addition to both traits with a casting, the ability to make creatures with the image version.

[col_impact]

Level 2 dip for at will Disguise Self and Silent Image is phenomenal. Even better if you pick GOO for always on Telepathy. Even more crazy if you are a Yuan-ti or secondarily a Deep Gnome. When you hit level 14 Illusionist you break the game (so level 16).


I always feel the need to reiterate, in case readers don't know any better, that minor illusion sight and sound are very hard to make work together.


I have not found this to be the case at all. The 2nd level Illusionist class ability is bonkers good if you know how to implement it.


Why go wizard? Because you want long rest spell slots, minor illusion sight and sound at the same time, or access to illusion and other spells that wizards get and warlocks don't.


Level 14 illusionist class ability and level 9 wizard spell list. At that point the build is god-like.

[Segev]

Level 2 dip for at will Disguise Self and Silent Image is phenomenal. Even better if you pick GOO for always on Telepathy. Even more crazy if you are a Yuan-ti or secondarily a Deep Gnome. When you hit level 14 Illusionist you break the game (so level 16).You also get 6th level spells at level 13 rather than level 11, and don't get much out of being a wizard rather than a warlock until that point. Level 18 straight wizard gets the same benefit as the level 16 Warlock/Illusionist, and the at-will illusory reality is not nearly as...important...to feeling like an illusionist.


I have not found this to be the case at all. The 2nd level Illusionist class ability is bonkers good if you know how to implement it.
I'd love some examples, please.

[col_impact]

You also get 6th level spells at level 13 rather than level 11, and don't get much out of being a wizard rather than a warlock until that point. Level 18 straight wizard gets the same benefit as the level 16 Warlock/Illusionist, and the at-will illusory reality is not nearly as...important...to feeling like an illusionist.


I'd love some examples, please.

I am not going to point out how to break the game with the level 2 and level 14 illusionist abilities. I am also not going to show you how to break the game with the 9th level wizard spell lists or the wizard exclusive spells. To find out how you are going to have to play an illusionist to tier 4 or watch how the best players out there play illusionists in tier 4 play.

[Segev]

I am not going to point out how to break the game with the level 2 and level 14 illusionist abilities. I am also not going to show you how to break the game with the 9th level wizard spell lists or the wizard exclusive spells. To find out how you are going to have to play an illusionist to tier 4 or watch how the best players out there play illusionists in tier 4 play.

What I'm hearing is, "I'm so clever, but won't prove it." Mixed with condescention insulting both my intellect and my integrity.

I'm not asking you how to break the game. I'm asking you how to use the level 2 ability to make both an image of an object and sounds within 30 feet simultaneously to be "bonkers good." Or even good enough to make it worth a 2nd level ability, honestly. Because where I am looking at it, it's best trick is hiding inside an illusory rock while making it sound like something is happening 30 feet away. There's no synergy, because the images created by minor illusion are hard-pressed to naturally be of things that should be making noise.

[col_impact]

Because where I am looking at it, it's best trick is hiding inside an illusory rock while making it sound like something is happening 30 feet away. There's no synergy, because the images created by minor illusion are hard-pressed to naturally be of things that should be making noise.

You are literally one step away from breaking it. And yes I am clever and I won't prove it. A magician never reveals his tricks. Let me know if you think you found it. I prefer if you msg me.

[Segev]

You are literally one step away from breaking it. And yes I am clever and I won't prove it. A magician never reveals his tricks. Let me know if you think you found it.

You're not a magician*, and this isn't a magic trick. This isn't a stage magic show, either.

This is a forum, where people are literally here to discuss how to make use of the tools the game gives us. Frankly, I don't believe you when you claim it's so horribly broken but you won't say how.

If you're just talking about using minor illusion's sound to provide backup for silent image, you don't need the Illusionist's second-level feature to do that. Hiding in an illusory rock is not needed when you can hide elsewhere, or just stand in the open doing it. So if that's your broken trick, I disagree with it being all that impressive. (I do agree that minor illusion + silent image is a good combination, but it doesn't make the ability to have an image version of minor illusion up simultaneously all that spiffy.)

If that's not what you're talking about, I have no idea what you ARE talking about.


* Or, if you are, you're misplacing your magician's ethics, as, again, this isn't a magic trick and being a magician is irrelevant to it.

[col_impact]

You're not a magician*, and this isn't a magic trick. This isn't a stage magic show, either.

This is a forum, where people are literally here to discuss how to make use of the tools the game gives us. Frankly, I don't believe you when you claim it's so horribly broken but you won't say how.

If you're just talking about using minor illusion's sound to provide backup for silent image, you don't need the Illusionist's second-level feature to do that. Hiding in an illusory rock is not needed when you can hide elsewhere, or just stand in the open doing it. So if that's your broken trick, I disagree with it being all that impressive. (I do agree that minor illusion + silent image is a good combination, but it doesn't make the ability to have an image version of minor illusion up simultaneously all that spiffy.)

If that's not what you're talking about, I have no idea what you ARE talking about.


* Or, if you are, you're misplacing your magician's ethics, as, again, this isn't a magic trick and being a magician is irrelevant to it.

##cue Starship Troopers commercial##. Msg me if you would like to know more.

[Tanarii]

I always feel the need to reiterate, in case readers don't know any better, that minor illusion sight and sound are very hard to make work together.

...maybe Illusionists should get, in addition to both traits with a casting, the ability to make creatures with the image version.
Oh I agree, Minor Illusion of a relative small immobile object and an effectively unlimited sound for a minute at the same time aren't incredibly powerful. That's mostly because of the limitations on visual use of the cantrip.

as forum posts often show, posters often don't even realize the limitations on the cantrip.

But if you want it, there's only one way to get it.

[col_impact]

Oh I agree, Minor Illusion of a relative small immobile object and an effectively unlimited sound for a minute at the same time aren't incredibly powerful. That's mostly because of the limitations on visual use of the cantrip.

as forum posts often show, posters often don't even realize the limitations on the cantrip.

But if you want it, there's only one way to get it.

I love it. I use the level 2 ability all the time even at Tier 4 tables (unless an enemy has Truesight). YMMV.

The level 14 ability literally declares you the winner.

And once you hit level 9 wizard spells well you are a god.

[Segev]

I love it. I use the level 2 ability all the time even at Tier 4 tables (unless an enemy has Truesight). YMMV.

The level 14 ability literally declares you the winner.

And once you hit level 9 wizard spells well you are a god.

Oh, the level 14 ability is very nice. But for me, the money one is Illusionist level 6: Maleable Illusions, combined with level 6 spell slots (which you get at class level 11). Once you can cast major image and make it Concentration-less and permanent duration, you can really start to be an illusion master, reshaping the illusory creatures, objects, and phenomena at will.

Level 14's illusory reality can do some amazing things. Making any one thing from your illusions real is potent if you're creative about it. (Don't overlook creation, though. With Malleable Illusions, even if your created thingie is damaged, you can just change it to undamaged with an action.) It's still only one thing, though. (I tend to hope the DM rules that it still interacts with the rest of the illusion the same way; it is kind-of lame if your illusion of an ogre drops his club because it's suddenly real and falls through his hand.)

[col_impact]

Oh, the level 14 ability is very nice. But for me, the money one is Illusionist level 6: Maleable Illusions, combined with level 6 spell slots (which you get at class level 11). Once you can cast major image and make it Concentration-less and permanent duration, you can really start to be an illusion master, reshaping the illusory creatures, objects, and phenomena at will.

Level 14's illusory reality can do some amazing things. Making any one thing from your illusions real is potent if you're creative about it. (Don't overlook creation, though. With Malleable Illusions, even if your created thingie is damaged, you can just change it to undamaged with an action.) It's still only one thing, though. (I tend to hope the DM rules that it still interacts with the rest of the illusion the same way; it is kind-of lame if your illusion of an ogre drops his club because it's suddenly real and falls through his hand.)

I 100% agree that the level 6 ability is where the money is. Malleable Mirror Image, Phantasmal Force, etc.

[Segev]

I 100% agree that the level 6 ability is where the money is. Malleable Mirror Image, Phantasmal Force, etc.

Okay, how do you use Malleable Illusions on mirror image? You can't control its manifestation. Can't really do it with phantasmal force, either, unless you're casting it on yourself, because you can't see the illusion. (Phantasmal force on oneself combined with Illusory Reality opens up a huge can of questions, but has the potential to be hillarious depending how they're answered.)

My own best-developed thoughts on the subject are in this thread (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?477658-Illusionist-Tricks/), which has some fun ways to use Malleable Illusions (primarily).

[col_impact]

Okay, how do you use Malleable Illusions on mirror image? You can't control its manifestation. Can't really do it with phantasmal force, either, unless you're casting it on yourself, because you can't see the illusion. (Phantasmal force on oneself combined with Illusory Reality opens up a huge can of questions, but has the potential to be hillarious depending how they're answered.)

My own best-developed thoughts on the subject are in this thread (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?477658-Illusionist-Tricks/), which has some fun ways to use Malleable Illusions (primarily).

Malleable Illusion lets you spend an action to refresh the images back to three since that is an original parameter of the spell.

You are correct about Phantasmal Force since you need to see the illusuon. However a Detect Thoughts potion can work around that.

Excellent link btw. Good stuff there.

[Segev]

Huh. Resetting an expended element of an illusion didn’t quite click with me before. Now I’m wondering if Mislead is way more powerful for an illusionist, too: can you reset the invisibility when you’ve ended it by casting a spell?

[col_impact]

Huh. Resetting an expended element of an illusion didn’t quite click with me before. Now I’m wondering if Mislead is way more powerful for an illusionist, too: can you reset the invisibility when you’ve ended it by casting a spell?

Absolutely you can. Why couldn't you?

[Chronos]

Quoth Segev:

The spell specifically forbids more than one at a time. Cast a second minor illusion, and the current one expires immediately.
...Huh. I've been using that spell for five or six years now, on three different characters, and never noticed that before. But you're right; it says it right there.

[JakOfAllTirades]

The ability to use Disguise Self at-will is a lot more useful if you have Charisma as a primary stat. Sure, you can appear to be anyone/anything within the limits of the spell, but if you're going to actually fool anyone (IOW imitate a specific person), you'll need to be able to roll a decent Deception or Performance check. That won't come easily if you just take the minimum 13 Charisma score required to multiclass.

In my experience this is one of the most valuable uses of Mask of Many Faces, and I don't see an Illusionist being able to pull it off well. Sure, they'd get some use out of it, but I'm doubtful they'd get enough to justify derailing their main class progression for two levels.

[Segev]

The ability to use Disguise Self at-will is a lot more useful if you have Charisma as a primary stat. Sure, you can appear to be anyone/anything within the limits of the spell, but if you're going to actually fool anyone (IOW imitate a specific person), you'll need to be able to roll a decent Deception or Performance check. That won't come easily if you just take the minimum 13 Charisma score required to multiclass.

In my experience this is one of the most valuable uses of Mask of Many Faces, and I don't see an Illusionist being able to pull it off well. Sure, they'd get some use out of it, but I'm doubtful they'd get enough to justify derailing their main class progression for two levels.

Coupling Mask of Many Faces with friends can cover a lot of sins, and also be used "backwards" as a way to sabotage others by creating hostilities against them.



I don't know if I mentioned this already in this thread, but I reminded myself of it elsewhere earlier today: if you don't do the two-level dip, see if you can talk your DM into letting you find, buy, or make a Wand of Silent Image. It's not printed up anywhere, but a 7-charge wand that recharges 1d4+3 charges per day would probably be an uncommon item (especially if it required attunement by a spellcaster), and would give you a lot of the flexibility to cast silent image when and as often as was necessary, if not as often as might be whimsically amusing. In fact, if you can get such a wand, I would strongly recommend (rather than merely moderately recommend) against dipping Warlock, because you'll have enough uses of the key spell to keep you feeling like an illusionist, and you won't delay things like Malleable Illusions and acquisition of level 6 spell slots.

[Citadel97501]

Coupling Mask of Many Faces with friends can cover a lot of sins, and also be used "backwards" as a way to sabotage others by creating hostilities against them.

I don't know if I mentioned this already in this thread, but I reminded myself of it elsewhere earlier today: if you don't do the two-level dip, see if you can talk your DM into letting you find, buy, or make a Wand of Silent Image. It's not printed up anywhere, but a 7-charge wand that recharges 1d4+3 charges per day would probably be an uncommon item (especially if it required attunement by a spellcaster), and would give you a lot of the flexibility to cast silent image when and as often as was necessary, if not as often as might be whimsically amusing. In fact, if you can get such a wand, I would strongly recommend (rather than merely moderately recommend) against dipping Warlock, because you'll have enough uses of the key spell to keep you feeling like an illusionist, and you won't delay things like Malleable Illusions and acquisition of level 6 spell slots.

This is something I wholeheartedly agree with. Frankly, the lack of good wands is a serious complaint I have with the current state of 5th edition.

[col_impact]

This is something I wholeheartedly agree with. Frankly, the lack of good wands is a serious complaint I have with the current state of 5th edition.

You can do that with a Ring of Spell Storing. Put 5 castings of Silent Image in there.

[Segev]

This is something I wholeheartedly agree with. Frankly, the lack of good wands is a serious complaint I have with the current state of 5th edition.

There's enough for guidelines, at least. Scrolls got nearly the same treatment as they did in 3.5 - "You can make a scroll of any spell; here are costs and such for each spell level." - but wands got specific, probably to illustrate that they're NOT just "spell trigger items" anymroe. But the pattern is there to see how to make specific-spell wands if you want to, at least. Like I said, talk to your DM about it.

[Chronos]

My only quibble would be that most 7-charge magic items regain 1d6+1 charges each day, not 1d4+3. Though the difference only matters in long-haul adventures.

[Tanarii]

The ability to use Disguise Self at-will is a lot more useful if you have Charisma as a primary stat. Sure, you can appear to be anyone/anything within the limits of the spell, but if you're going to actually fool anyone (IOW imitate a specific person), you'll need to be able to roll a decent Deception or Performance check. That won't come easily if you just take the minimum 13 Charisma score required to multiclass.
This is no less a problem for a single class illusionist.

[Segev]

My only quibble would be that most 7-charge magic items regain 1d6+1 charges each day, not 1d4+3. Though the difference only matters in long-haul adventures.

That wasn't even intentional; I just forgot the usual formula. 1d6+1 works better, honestly.



And yes, the friends+disguise self trick is almost certainly better on a Bard, Sorcerer, or (especially) Warlock that is focused on being one of those classes, primarily, due to the Cha synnergy. Probably fodder for a different thread, but does it seem weird to anybody else that Warlocks spend an invocation for just two proficiencies? (I bring it up because they're actually useful if one is going to capitalize on this combo.)



Illusionist wizards, even single-classed ones, can still do this. You can get a proficiency in Deception, Persuasion, or both (or even Intimidation; that works better with friends, ironically, as well) from a background or something. That absolutely will help even with a less-than-stellar Charisma. (A +2 from proficiency is equal to a 14 or 15 Cha with no proficiency. Obviously, a proficiency and charisma bonus together is better, but still.)

But it does take some building for it, and it isn't the best synnergy, because you don't ever get to apply, say, your Deception bonus to any of your illusions. That's pure Int (and you get your proficiency automatically).

[Tanarii]

But it does take some building for it, and it isn't the best synnergy, because you don't ever get to apply, say, your Deception bonus to any of your illusions. That's pure Int (and you get your proficiency automatically).
Your Silent Image at-will DC to see through with an Investigation check is determined by your warlock modifier, so Cha. Of course, depending on your DM runs enemies vs illusions that may or may not be important.

[Segev]

Your Silent Image at-will DC to see through with an Investigation check is determined by your warlock modifier, so Cha. Of course, depending on your DM runs enemies vs illusions that may or may not be important.

You're absolutely right. I was, however, unclear, and for that I apologize. When I wrote the specific sentence to which you were responding, I was, in my own mind, thinking of a single-class wizard.

Yes, a Warlock, or a multiclassing Wizard/Warlock using a Warlock invocation, would have their silent image DC set by their Charisma modifier, not their Intelligence modifier.