Help me build a magic bow?

[bean illus]

I'm probably working with composite (elvencraft) bowstaff, and the staff is the secondary weapon (and needs only minimal enhancement). I've read quite a bit, but am pretty novice at creating items. Hank's bow is definitely out, but Wintermoon is ok.

For now, let's assume the bow can be easily upgraded by trading it to ... another tribal member (or whatever).

I'll need to add the enhancements etc at the proper (affordable) levels. And the build is archer 20 (bab 18), with keen and imp crit (peerless archer). It's also got a crit confirm mechanic (+2-4ish), and EWP.

Question 1 can elvencraft bow be meshed with wintermoon? How's that work/cost?

The build has 8 shots per round, 9 if some haste can be squeezed in (19-20 x 4). If i split the arrows there's gonna be crits all around.

I know I'll need splitting, and a wand chamber (hunters mercy, maybe?). I've heard Collision, Force. I know the ammo does much of the work in archery.

So, what is it? Max +10?

+3 Splitting 9k (req PS
+1 Collision ... is that wrong?
+2 Force ... right?

So, only a +2 enhancement, that's it?
So, please be nice while exposing how newb i am. lol


And a way to incorporate Arrowsplit spell (2 ranger levels, wands are auto?). How many wand chambers can a bow have?

Yeah, i could use help. Or else I'll probably add things in the wrong order/etc.

[Kayblis]

Starting with Elvencraft + Wintermoon.
The "Bow of the Wintermoon" is a relic item, and as such it's a specific weapon. Usually you can't add special material/craft properties on top of a Relic item, as part of the item rules. You can add enchantments by following the "Improving items" section of MIC. Some DMs allow their players to reverse-engineer specific weapon properties to apply to other weapons, and in this case you would just add the Elvencraft cost and any special Bowstaff cost in place of the normal bow cost. Ask your DM if these modifications are acceptable, not because it's gamebreaking or anything, just because it's outside the rules and into common homebrew territory.

Now onto the enchantments.
The base bow is a +1 Composite Longbow with an alignment restriction and costs 3,400gp. Let's ignore the restriction because it's very unrestrictive here, and say that 2,000gp of the base cost go into the +1. That's 1,400gp for all the rest. You can enchant it with Splitting for a +3 equivalent, Force for a +2 equivalent, and Collision for a +2 equivalent too(it's not +1). You have to keep the base +1, as it's already created like that to be a Bow of the Wintermoon, and because special enchants require at least a +1 prior to application.
So a Splitting Bow of the Wintermoon costs 1,400gp base plus a +4 enchantment total, or 33,400gp. Only adding Force is +3 equivalent for a total of 19,400gp.
Adding other mods go the same way, base cost 1,400gp plus the total enchantment result.
A Splitting Force Collision Bow of the Wintermoon costs 129,400 gp, or 1400gp plus a +8 equivalent enchantment. It has a +1 to-hit and damage, as a common +1 weapon.

Edit: Note that you can't make this weapon +10 normally. As you have a special enchantment with a cost(1,400gp), if you tried to enchant it to +10 equivalent, it'd cost more than 200,000gp, which is the cap for non-epic items. This means you could add properties with fixed cost(like the "+5,000 gp" ones in the MIC Weapon Enchantment Table), but enchantments could only go up to +9.

[Biggus]

The Seeking enhancement might be worth considering.

Not sure if you can have both Arrowsplit and the Splitting property working on the same bow at the same time, as Splitting is already based on Arrowsplit (it's the spell required to add that ability) so it's effectively the same ability. I'd check with your DM.

As Kayblis says, Collision is +2 not +1.

Apart from that you're looking pretty good to me.

[bean illus]

The Seeking enhancement might be worth considering.

... , as Splitting is already based on Arrowsplit ...

Apart from that you're looking pretty good to me.

It occured to me while typing to check that stacking, but i forgot to.

Which is better? The spell, except it's not constant.
... Get splitting, and a wand for oomph? The spell would overlay, correct? Giving 20% more arrows?
If I'm firing 8, Splitting is 16, but Arrowsplit is 20 avg.

Wintermoon does say relic, but it also says numerous copies, so there's that. Is does say Corellon, and alignment.

[Biggus]

Which is better? The spell, except it's not constant.
... Get splitting, and a wand for oomph? The spell would overlay, correct? Giving 20% more arrows?
If I'm firing 8, Splitting is 16, but Arrowsplit is 20 avg.


There are pros and cons to both.

Arrowsplit averages 3.5 arrows per arrow (1d4+1), so if you're firing 8 times per round, that would be an average of 28 attacks per round. It has a relatively low start-up cost, 11,250GP for a wand but you also have to factor in the cost of the masterwork arrows: 20 normal arrows cost 1GP, 20 masterwork arrows cost 121GP. And of course, you have to keep paying this cost every time you use it: it costs an extra 273GP per round if you use 8 arrows. Also, it takes up your swift action every round, so you can't use any other items or abilities which require swift or immediate actions.

Splitting gives you "only" 16 arrows per round, and costs a lot initially (adding it to a +1 Force Collision bow costs 78,000GP) but once you've paid for it, that's it. It also has the advantage of leaving your wand chamber free for something else (Hunter's Mercy is indeed very good if you have a x4 critical multiplier, I recently DM'd for a player who used it to great effect).

273GP per round takes 286 rounds to exceed a 78,000GP cost. At an average of 5 rounds per combat and 13.33 encounters per level, that would take about 4.3 levels for the cost of Arrowsplit to exceed the cost of the Splitting Bow (obviously if you add another ability like Seeking to the bow, this will increase). So it depends how long you play the character for which costs more.

On the whole, I'd say Arrowsplit is better if you can afford it, an extra 12 arrows per round on average is hard to beat (just make sure you have lots of d20s and d8s or you'll be there all day rolling your attacks and damage...) but if you have other high-value uses for your swift actions that may change.

How are you managing 8 shots per round before Splitting or Haste btw?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Take a weapon crystal of the most expensive kind you want. Now, have it further enhanced with every other weapon crystal property you want, including the +1d6 energy damage ones, at a 50% markup. Now the weapon crystal gives you lots of extra damage and hardness and so on, and all for really, really cheap. Buy three of them so you have one for the bow portion and two for the quarterstaff portions..

Get yourself a nice +1 adamantine, cold iron, and riverine splitting raptor arrow (each) to add all those d6s onto. Enjoy tons of free arrows for overcoming DR etc.

[Biggus]

How many wand chambers can a bow have?


Only one (Dungeonscape p.33). If you're using a bowstaff it can have two in its quarterstaff form as it's a double weapon.


Take a weapon crystal of the most expensive kind you want. Now, have it further enhanced with every other weapon crystal property you want, including the +1d6 energy damage ones, at a 50% markup. Now the weapon crystal gives you lots of extra damage and hardness and so on, and all for really, really cheap.

Huh. It never occurred to me you could put multiple powers on a single augment crystal before. I suspect it's not RAI, but it's certainly RAW. If I ever play an epic level character with a DM who'll allow it, I'll have one with everything please...

[Gruftzwerg]

And a way to incorporate Arrowsplit spell (2 ranger levels, wands are auto?). How many wand chambers can a bow have?

Yeah, i could use help. Or else I'll probably add things in the wrong order/etc.

Imho forget the wand chambers. Just buy a "Glove of Wands" or two (= 1 pair), each for 18k iirc. Each glove can store up to 5 wands (one in each finger = access up to 10 wands at the same time). And you can use the stored wands with a fingertip. + some minor bonuses if the wand matches the bonus associated with the finger.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Imho forget the wand chambers. Just buy a "Glove of Wands" or two (= 1 pair), each for 18k iirc. Each glove can store up to 5 wands (one in each finger = access up to 10 wands at the same time). And you can use the stored wands with a fingertip. + some minor bonuses if the wand matches the bonus associated with the finger.Wand bracers have 5 wands for each hand. They cost very little. Like, 300 gp or something.

[Gruftzwerg]

Wand bracers have 5 wands for each hand. They cost very little. Like, 300 gp or something.

while they are nice, imho they wouldn't work here.

IIRC you have to retrieve the wand to use it with the wand bracers (correct me if I'm wrong here). And the bow is to big to be stored with the exchance ability of the item.


The Golves of Wands on the other hand lets you use the stored wands.

[the_tick_rules]

According to magic item compendium collision is a +2 enchantment. If you can go all the way to +10 I'd endorse a +5 force, collision, seeking bow. Force is a +2 that makes your arrow inflict force damage that bypasses almost all resistance, collision gives you +5 damage, seeking is a +1 that negates a ton of cover.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

According to magic item compendium collision is a +2 enchantment. If you can go all the way to +10 I'd endorse a +5 force, collision, seeking bow. Force is a +2 that makes your arrow inflict force damage that bypasses almost all resistance, collision gives you +5 damage, seeking is a +1 that negates a ton of cover.Why are you wasting +4's worth of abilities? Make it +1, use those additional +4 on other abilities and either get the tooth of Leraje or other access to greater magic weapon. Then you have +1 enhancement / +9 special ability raptor arrows (that have an additional +2 / +2d6 plus unbreakable plus returning on top of everything else) fired from a(n essentially) +5 enhancement / +9 special ability bow that also has several additional special abilities from whatever weapon crystals you've got stacked up.

That's easily an epic loadout (+7 / +18 / +lots of d6s, each d6 of which is worth a +1), it's incredibly cheap, and it's available well before epic.

Even better, make the bow based on a +1 morphing/sizing shuriken, bolt, or arrow, made from riverine or aurorum to make it close to indestructible and give it the metalline ability to overcome various DRs as a melee weapon. Then you can A.) make it even cheaper at 1/50 the cost, and B.) use it for myriad other things due to the vastly increased versatility. As an example, turn it into a Gargantuan or Colossal quarterstaff and you can use it to hold up a dungeon ceiling after the main support was accidentally removed by a poorly timed earthquake spell.

[tyckspoon]

There are pros and cons to both.

Arrowsplit averages 3.5 arrows per arrow (1d4+1), so if you're firing 8 times per round, that would be an average of 28 attacks per round. It has a relatively low start-up cost, 11,250GP for a wand but you also have to factor in the cost of the masterwork arrows: 20 normal arrows cost 1GP, 20 masterwork arrows cost 121GP. And of course, you have to keep paying this cost every time you use it: it costs an extra 273GP per round if you use 8 arrows. Also, it takes up your swift action every round, so you can't use any other items or abilities which require swift or immediate actions.


You can only Arrowsplit one arrow per round, assuming you don't have some way to generate additional Swift actions - it affects one arrow/bolt that you cast it on, not all of your attacks in a round. And it arguably combines with Splitting to give you two Arrowsplits on that shot, although you may have to argue that one out with a DM. Definitely still a place for Splitting even if you do have an Arrowsplit wand.

[Quertus]

You can only Arrowsplit one arrow per round, assuming you don't have some way to generate additional Swift actions - it affects one arrow/bolt that you cast it on, not all of your attacks in a round. And it arguably combines with Splitting to give you two Arrowsplits on that shot, although you may have to argue that one out with a DM. Definitely still a place for Splitting even if you do have an Arrowsplit wand.

So… how about we use an Acorn of Far Travel set to some theoretical plane which a) is timeless with respect to magic to a1) make the Acorn and a2) all buffs (including Greater Magic Weapon) permanent, and b) auto-maximizes our spells; in particular, Arrowsplit? So, Splitting bow, with Maximized Arrowsplit, for (maybe) 10 arrows, for when you really want something dead.

For true insanity, have the Acorn be attuned to a 3.0 plane, where weapon and arrow enchantments stack. With GMW, you can be firing at +10 to hit and damage.

[ExLibrisMortis]

You can also use two +1 quick-loading splitting force collision bladed steel crossbows with splintering bolts (Dragon #349). 36 attacks per round, each of them a 30' cone! Full-auto shotgun mode!

[MaxiDuRaritry]

For true insanity, have the Acorn be attuned to a 3.0 plane, where weapon and arrow enchantments stack. With GMW, you can be firing at +10 to hit and damage.I assume you mean enhancement bonuses, not enchantments.

[Quertus]

I assume you mean enhancement bonuses, not enchantments.

Ah, yes, what you said.

I mean, I suppose you could stack flaming arrows with a bow of frost or something in either edition, but, yes, I was trying to comment on how their enhancement bonuses stacked in 3.0.

[bean illus]

Ok, i still have a lot of questions. I've rarely played above level 12ish, and I'm novice at custom items.

What kind of augment crystals can be found/made? Let's keep it RAI.

Greater Truedeath is obvious, but situational. What else? I can use 3 (1 bow, 2 staff) but could carry others.

Lifedrinking sounds fun on an archer, but it's only 50 hp/day for 10k.

Can greater magic weapon go on a crystal? Wand (yes?), but expensive (+2 11,200, +3 22,500, +4 33,750). Let's say i carry the wand for when i can't get a caster, and use it 1/day.


Imho forget the wand chambers. Just buy a "Glove of Wands" or two (= 1 pair), each for 18k iirc. Each glove can store up to 5 wands (one in each finger = access up to 10 wands at the same time). And you can use the stored wands with a fingertip. + some minor bonuses if the wand matches the bonus associated with the finger.

Which book? Wand glove 18k?
Lesser restoration C 2
Cat's grace R 2
Hunters mercy R 1
Magic weapon W 3 +2
Arrowmind R 1

Lesser restoration is crucial for most archers, though a bit less so on a wintermoon build.

I've constructed the bow in steps for level advancement, usually spending less than 1/2 wbl.

Until 8th we're using the +1 seeking +3 composite bowstaff.

3 2,700 elvencraft +3 comp +1 MWLB 1000
4 5,400 +1 elvencraft +3 comp 3,000
6 13,000 +1 seeking EC +3 comp 9,000

We then trade it for the wintermoon bow at 9 HD and start loading it.

9 36,000 +1 ECWM 10,400
10 49,000 +1 splitting ECWM 33,400
13 110,000 +1 split force, ECWM 73,400
16 260,000 +1 split force collision 129,400
17 340,000 +1 split force seek coll 163,400

I could slow that down to buy other things but ... about that.

I'm having trouble finding a list of fixed price weapon enhancements. So far this is what I got.

Shadowstrike 1/day add 5 ft. to reach and deny target Dex bonus to AC 5,000
Sizing Changes size category on command 5,000
Slow burst On critical hit, target slowed for 3 rounds 5,000

Shadowstrike probably needs melee? Anything else?
Sizing for Enlarge Person.
Slow burst! Do i get to have this? On an archer? This build crits 2x/round. Even with a DC 14 will, somebody is gonna get slowed.

I do have a 20 level build for it. And a Human version also, sans Wintermoon. I'll reveal them on another post soon.

Thanks to everyone so far. I wanted to quote all of you. lol

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Ok, i still have a lot of questions. I've rarely played above level 12ish, and I'm novice at custom items.

What kind of augment crystals can be found/made? Let's keep it RAI.RAI is that you can stack them together. It says right in the MIC; it's entirely RAW, and nothing indicates that it's anything but 100% what the book says it is, as it's extremely clear-cut: A 50% surcharge for all but the most expensive item ability, and you're good.

You've got 88,000 gp to work with, minus 3,400 gp for the bow (or 3,700 gp for an elvencraft bow of the wintermoon; more if you want special materials or other enhancements), and a +1 enhancement allows you to get a lesser compound weapon crystal to toss on it.

1,400 gp for a lesser adamant crystal for +5 hardness.
3,000 gp each for a lesser acid, cold, electricity, fire assault crystal (12,000 gp for all four for +4d6 energy damage altogether).
1,000 gp for a lesser crystal of return for (effectively) Quickdraw and move action teleport-to-hand from 30' away.
3,000 gp for a lesser fiendslayer crystal for +1d6 vs evil outsiders and overcoming DR/good (in addition to whatever else your arrows overcome).
5,000 gp for a lesser true death crystal for +1d6 vs undead and acting as ghost touch (which, while situational, is really, really good).

Multiply everything by x1.5 except the truedeath function, since it's the most expensive.

Also, get yourself an aurorum raptor arrow for 6,006 gp + (4,000 / 50) = 6,086 gp. Feel free to add additional enhancements to this arrow for 1/50 the cost (since it's ammunition; it's just that the raptor arrow enhancement would be extremely expensive for anything that isn't ammo) like morphing/sizing/metalline/splitting. Luckily, morphing/sizing means you get a bane (everything)/returning/metalline weapon of your very own.

[the_tick_rules]

I completely forgot about the crystal stacking idea. great and my what if build had reached the suggested gold limit for someone of his level. well back to the drawing board again.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

And don't forget the tooth of Leraje. A +5 weapon for 20 hours per day for 21,600 gp. Toss it on either your bow or your raptor arrow. Either/or.

Anyone in the group got levels in spellthief to give that to the whole party?

[DarkSoul]

I didn't see your character posted, so I'm making a couple assumptions: First, that you're taking no more than 3 levels of Peerless Archer, because why would you? There's not much in the class beyond Power Shot other than making your own magical arrows, but I don't think that's worth 10 levels of a non-casting class. Secondly, that you're a worshipper of Ehlonna (or some campaign specific deity that the DM feels is appropriate) and you take the True Believer feat or give up a level 4 slot for the Raptor Arrows.

Bow of the Wintermoon is a relic of Corellon, but the relic powers are irrelevant. All you're looking for is the scaling strength modifier. If you work out the cost of the magical properties of the bow, you'll find that the scaling strength is valued at 1,000 gold. You might talk to your DM about just paying an extra 1,000 gold and enchanting it on whatever bow you want. If not, just keep the Wintermoon bow and enchant that.

+1 Seeking, Force, Collision, Splitting, Warning, Magebane sets you up nicely, especially if the DM allows the Complete Arcane version of Magebane instead of the MIC version. If you're limited to +9 because of the 200k gold limit, Magebane is what gets cut.

Get a Raptor Arrow for every attack you can make in a round, and ask your DM if hits from multiple Shattermantle weapons stack. If so, enchant them all. According to the rules for enchanting ammunition, each arrow should only cost 2% of its normal price to enchant. Also, ask them if the relic power counts as the bane weapon enchantment. If it does (this is kinda cheesy and might get a book, or at least some dice, thrown at you), enchant them all with Fiercebane. Finally, for kicks enchant each arrow with Revealing.

Season all this with other enchantments, weapon crystals, and wand chambers until you reach your desired level of spice.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

+1 Seeking, Force, Collision, Splitting, Warning, Magebane sets you up nicely, especially if the DM allows the Complete Arcane version of Magebane instead of the MIC version. If you're limited to +9 because of the 200k gold limit, Magebane is what gets cut.Truthfully, I'd add the enhancements onto my arrows, since they don't break. I'd only worry about adding a few extremely specific enhancements to my bow, like Aptitude, since they're 50x as much. It's cheaper to get eight +9 arrows than one +9 bow.

Hell, why would you need Power Shot when you could apply Power Attack to your aptitude bow? After all, Power Attack requires a specific weapon type, right? Say, melee weapons?

Also, magebane doesn't work with the raptor arrows; they're already bane (everything).

[DarkSoul]

Truthfully, I'd add the enhancements onto my arrows, since they don't break. I'd only worry about adding a few extremely specific enhancements to my bow, like Aptitude, since they're 50x as much. It's cheaper to get forty +9 arrows than one +9 bow.

Hell, why would you need Power Shot when you could apply Power Attack to your aptitude bow? After all, Power Attack requires a specific weapon type, right? Say, melee weapons?

Also, magebane doesn't work with the raptor arrows; they're already bane (everything).I wouldn't let that work with aptitude. It specifically references feats that affect a specific kind of weapon, not a category of them. He said he was taking Peerless Archer levels, so I assume it's for Power Shot. Personally I went Deepwood Sniper instead of Peerless Archer for mine.

You're right about enchanting the arrows instead, though. 5 raptor arrows only cost 10% of normal price to enchant.

[bean illus]

... ... no more than 3 levels of Peerless Archer, ... ? .. but I don't think that's worth 10 levels of a non-casting class. Secondly, ... Ehlonna and ... True Believer feat or give up a level 4 slot for the Raptor Arrows.

Bow of the Wintermoon is a relic of Corellon, ... If not, just keep the Wintermoon bow and enchant that.

+1 Seeking, Force, Collision, Splitting, Warning, Magebane sets you up ... Magebane is what gets cut.

It's a martial build, with ranger 2 and cleric 1.
I dropped Peerless Archer 3, cause the first 2 levels aren't worth it. I have a build with no ToB that includes it, and might post it also, later. I kept Deepwood Sniper 2 because, same reasons everyone else does.

Wintermoon and Raptor arrows can't stack? True Believer is 1 per deity.

Here's the weapons leveling. It's quite similar to your's, so far.

Until 8th we're using the +1 seeking +3 composite bowstaff.

3 2,700 elvencraft +3 comp +1 MWLB 1000
4 5,400 +1 elvencraft +3 comp 3,000
6 13,000 +1 seeking EC +3 comp 9,000

We then trade it for the wintermoon bow at 9 HD and start loading it.

9 36,000 +1 ECWM 10,400
10 49,000 +1 splitting ECWM 33,400
13 110,000 +1 split force, ECWM 73,400
16 260,000 +1 split force collision 129,400
17 340,000 +1 split force seek coll 163,400

I could slow that down to buy other things but ... about that.



... ask your DM if hits from multiple Shattermantle weapons stack. ... ... Finally, for kicks enchant each arrow with Revealing.

I'll look into those. Custom ammo is what we do.

I'm not gonna have 20 +9 raptor arrows.
Again, i need to think about how to spend/play 20 levels, not just [i]Poof[/], epic play that bends every rule.
So far, the only rule I've bent is assuming Wintermoon, which i pay for with TB, and elf. I'd love even one, for the first shot every round.

Anyone wanna address fixed price enchantment add ons to the bow proposed?

Shadowstrike 1/day add 5 ft. to reach and deny target Dex bonus to AC 5,000
Sizing Changes size category on command 5,000
Slow burst On critical hit, target slowed for 3 rounds 5,000
Shadowstrike probably needs melee? Anything else?
Sizing for Enlarge Person.
Slow burst! Do i get to have this? On an archer? This build crits 2x/round. Even with a DC 14 will, somebody is gonna get slowed.

Are those notes correct? Do the work with ranged weapons? Are there a few more that I gotta have?

Current price = 188.4k before ammo. Sounds like a lot, but workable.

My current work around for ammo is to get an efficient quiver and stick another efficient quiver inside it. At 1.8k each it won't cost much.

Please? n Thanks.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I'd focus most of my WBL on raptor arrows instead of the bow of the wintermoon, including using True Believer for the arrows instead of the bow. Remember, you can still use the bow even without the feat; you just can't use the special relic powers (although the arrows are vastly better on all counts for that anyway).

Now, feel free to take the Ancestral Relic feat for the bow (or for the weapon crystal) to save a lot of money in the long run. I'd suggest taking it for the bow, personally, since there's not a lot you can do with the weapon crystal past what I suggested above, unless you're gonna start branching out to other odd abilities to add to it. Although...

...Oh.

...Oh my goodness.

...That gave me an idea.

Okay, so, you can add abilities irrespective of what body slot (or lack thereof) the item abilities normally apply to, although if the body slots don't match up, or if the item's slot becomes slotless, you pay x2 the amount instead of the x1.5 amount. So why not take Ancestral Relic for a (pair of) glove(s) and add the weapon crystal abilities to it? Have the weapon crystal abilities apply to any weapon held with the gloves? So that way, if you use the bow of the wintermoon as a bow, it applies to the bow. If you use it as a quarterstaff, it applies to the quarterstaff. If you pick up a +1 ranseur (or something), it applies to that. Then feel free to add glove abilities to it, like gloves of Dex, casting glove, and glove of the master strategist? Thing is, you're going from a slotless item to a slotted item that makes sense, so the weapon crystal prices would actually be cut in half. Or they should, anyway.

[bean illus]

I'd focus most of my WBL on raptor arrows instead of the bow of the wintermoon, including using True Believer for the arrows instead of the bow. Remember, you can still use the bow even without the feat; you just can't use the special relic powers (although the arrows are vastly better on all counts for that anyway).
Lol. I'm sure you could 'break' any campaign I've ever been in.

I see what you're saying, but I've said that I'm also building a human version, so neither Wintermoon nor Raptor Arrows can be the sole path to the gimmick of the build.

And my interest with the bow is tied to my interest and stating out barbarian hordes, so again not necessarily elven, or even human. And while the high level characters in a horde might have who knows what, the vast majority won't have a relic or three.

Archery just devours feats, as you know. Just greater manyshot with improved rapid shot and ranged weapon mastery is 8 feats. All the builds need more than that, and by 9th level if possible. A few have some wriggle room of 1 or 2 feats at the end.

But ... ...

Now, feel free to take the Ancestral Relic feat for the bow (or for the weapon crystal) to save a lot of money in the long run. I'd suggest taking it for the bow, personally, since there's not a lot you can do with the weapon crystal past what I suggested above, unless you're gonna start branching out to other odd abilities to add to it. Although...
I'll look into Ancestral Relic. Thanks.



...Oh.

...Oh my goodness.

...That gave me an idea.

Okay, so, you can add abilities irrespective of what body slot (or lack thereof) the item abilities normally apply to, although if the body slots don't match up, or if the item's slot becomes slotless, you pay x2 the amount instead of the x1.5 amount. So why not take Ancestral Relic for a (pair of) glove(s) and add the weapon crystal abilities to it? Have the weapon crystal abilities apply to any weapon held with the gloves? So that way, if you use the bow of the wintermoon as a bow, it applies to the bow. If you use it as a quarterstaff, it applies to the quarterstaff. If you pick up a +1 ranseur (or something), it applies to that. Then feel free to add glove abilities to it, like gloves of Dex, casting glove, and glove of the master strategist? Thing is, you're going from a slotless item to a slotted item that makes sense, so the weapon crystal prices would actually be cut in half. Or they should, anyway.

This is pretty badass. I've never heard of it. It should go in handbooks.

I would rule that slotless, but it's a great way for a high level melee to buff multiple weapons. It works to whatever power level the DM prefers.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

How much optimization leeway are you allowed? Because if you need feats (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?400840-List-of-Feat-Granting-Items-Locations-Grafts)...

Note that you can DCFS out many of those to get the feats you want. And since many of them come from weapons (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=10419.0)... (Especially note the various archery feats, which you can use directly.)

Also, go look at the armor proficiency feats and note how many of them are granted as bonus feats. I doubt you'll be using heavy armor on a ranged build, after all.

[edit] You know, it's too bad you can't change your build to artificer somehow. Spell Storing aurorum dye arrows (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment/weapons/weapon-descriptions/ammunition/ammunition-bow-arrows-common/ammunition-bow-arrow-dye/) would be great for buffing allies and debuffing enemies.

A sand (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?415149-Sand-Blaster-MM3) blaster (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?444154-MM3-Sand-Blaster-Exotic-Weapon-Optimization) might come in handy, as well. And don't bother with Exotic Weapon Proficiency, since you don't make attack rolls with it.

[bean illus]

How much optimization leeway are you allowed? Because if you need feats (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?400840-List-of-Feat-Granting-Items-Locations-Grafts)...

Note that you can DCFS out many of those to get the feats you want. And since many of them come from weapons (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=10419.0)...


Item feats are cool for tacking things on, but i never use them to qualify. I have a fear that a dispell could collapse a builds major schtick.

And DCFS is cheating, though raw i suppose. Though it does remind me of a workaround with BAB that i recently noticed ...

One level of cleric grants Divine Power wand use.
Multiclass at will, DCFS everything, and carry a wand of DP. But that's not what I'm doing today.

I do hope your help is available when I post the builds. thanks

[Powerdork]

it'd cost more than 200,000gp, which is the cap for non-epic items.

Out of curiosity, where is this from? I'm scanning the DMG for it but not seeing it stated explicitly, and errata's no help.

[the_tick_rules]

Out of curiosity, where is this from? I'm scanning the DMG for it but not seeing it stated explicitly, and errata's no help.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/magicItems/basics.htm

I'll see if I can find a dmg specific page later.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

This is pretty badass. I've never heard of it. It should go in handbooks.

I would rule that slotless, but it's a great way for a high level melee to buff multiple weapons. It works to whatever power level the DM prefers.It works great for basically anything but thrown weapons and natural weapons. Projectile weapons? Yeah. Two-weapon fighting? Yes. Two-handers? Yep. Sword-and-board? Indeed. (And it also works on the shield, so long as it's one you can bash with somehow, which basically excludes tower shields and bucklers.)

So, yeah, it doesn't do anything for thrown weapons, since they leave your weapon crystal gloves before they strike, and it doesn't work on natural weapons, since you don't wield those in your hands (the Detach feat notwithstanding). Is there any way to launch thrown weapons aside from how the gnome calculus does with grenade-like splash weapons and alchemical stuff? Which, by the way, this would be very useful for.

[bean illus]

Hey, Maxi
Can that weapon crystal be attached to a glove of wands? yes?


RAI is that you can stack them together. It says right in the MIC; it's entirely RAW, and nothing indicates that it's anything but 100% what the book says it is, as it's extremely clear-cut: A 50% surcharge for all but the most expensive item ability, and you're good.

You've got 88,000 gp to work with, minus 3,400 gp for the bow (...snip...

I don't understand the 88k. Other than that, ... I suppose that at level 20 those are bumps. They certainly aren't T1 shenanigans. Still, it needs to fit into the cash flow per level. It seems to leave the staff unenchanted, but that's probably no big deal because etc.

Are we sure it doesn't mean 'stack least, lesser, and greater'?

Let's just add it up?


1,400 gp for a lesser adamant crystal for +5 hardness.
3,000 gp each for a lesser acid, cold, electricity, fire assault crystal (12,000 gp for all four for +4d6 energy damage altogether).
1,000 gp for a lesser crystal of return for (effectively) Quickdraw and move action teleport-to-hand from 30' away.
3,000 gp for a lesser fiendslayer crystal for +1d6 vs evil outsiders and overcoming DR/good (in addition to whatever else your arrows overcome).
5,000 gp for a lesser true death crystal for +1d6 vs undead and acting as ghost touch (which, while situational, is really, really good).

Multiply everything by x1.5 except the truedeath function, since it's the most expensive.

30.1k for the package? (Ask DM, many by 20th, yada yada)



Also, get yourself an aurorum raptor arrow for 6,006 gp + (4,000 / 50) = 6,086 gp. Feel free to add additional enhancements to this arrow for 1/50 the cost (since it's ammunition; it's just that the raptor arrow enhancement would be extremely expensive for anything that isn't ammo) like morphing/sizing/metalline/splitting. Luckily, morphing/sizing means you get a bane (everything)/returning/metalline weapon of your very own.

And ...

And don't forget the tooth of Leraje. A +5 weapon for 20 hours per day for 21,600 gp.


Probably not gonna. Lajere tooth is a 1 of a kind. Wintermoon specifically says multiple copies get made.
Just for DM's sanity. As always, depending on optimization level at the table.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Hey, Maxi
Can that weapon crystal be attached to a glove over wands? yes?Not sure what you're asking here. Do you mean 'can you add the multiple weapon crystal properties to a glove of wands?' Yeah, there's nothing stopping you, so long as you follow the correct procedures laid out in the MIC. Each weapon crystal property is considered separate, pricing-wise, so don't lump them all together as one 'weapon crystal property' and compare it to the glove of wands.


I don't understand the 88k.I thought I saw that the build you're starting with is level 12, so that's the WBL I used. I looked back over the original post and saw it was level 20. Not sure where I got 12 from.


Other than that, ... I suppose that at level 20 those are bumps. They certainly aren't T1 shenanigans. Still, it needs to fit into the cash flow per level. It seems to leave the staff unenchanted, but that's probably no big deal because etc.If you can make the gloves work (and make sure to add gloves of the master strategist, casting gloves, and maybe even something like this (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?177889-Brainstorm-for-Psionic-Tricks-Tactics-and-Combos-Handbook&p=23285432&viewfull=1#post23285432), even without the psychoactive skin portion), then just make each side of the quarterstaff portion of the elvencraft bow of the wintermoon as a +1 weapon so your gloves' lesser weapon crystal properties always apply. Then add things like sizing, morphing, metalline, eager, and warning -- stuff that always apply so long as you're holding the weapon, or affect the whole weapon -- and split them between the two sides so that you minimize wasted money. You don't want to have the quarterstaff ends be enhanced as +1/+1 on one side and +1/+2/+2 on the other if you can avoid it, especially if you could split them into something a bit more equal (although this doesn't apply for certain weapon ability combos that all need to group together, of course).


Are we sure it doesn't mean 'stack least, lesser, and greater'?If you're mainly going with a +1 enhancement bonus, there's not much point in stacking any greater weapon crystals on, due to greaters only applying to +3 and higher enhancement bonuses. If you have a ready source of high level greater magic weapon effects, then sure, but it just seems like spending the extra money for a standard +3 would be kind of meh for when you don't. (Especially if you don't want to use the tooth of Leraje for this.) If you think the expense is worthwhile to get the greater effects on a constant basis (and don't mind getting dispelled due to the weapon's lower caster level) then go ahead and spend the extra cash. It's your money, after all.

I think the only weapon crystals that are really worth stacking least, lesser, and greater effects would be the crystals of adamant weaponry (for lots of weapon hardness), the fiendslayer crystals (but only if you expect to fight a lot of evil outsiders), the truedeath crystals (likewise for lots of undead), and the crystals of security (that +17 vs disarm is handy). Unless you plan on having a highly variable enhancement bonus and always want the best weapon crystal at all times, anyway. Then you might want a bit more in the way of flexibility. Even then, it's mostly lesser and greater you want, with the least effect being largely superfluous.

Does that make any sense at all?


Probably not gonna. Lajere tooth is a 1 of a kind. Wintermoon specifically says multiple copies get made.

Just for DM's sanity. As always, depending on optimization level at the table.Might wanna ask, first the DM, then the group. Maybe see if the group can chip together to spring for a spellthief cohort that stays out of combat and just steals the 1/day greater magic weapon repeatedly to add to everyone's weapons. In which case, see if they'll all do the same for the tooth, as well. Do the same for some healing wands. Make sure to keep a few thousand gp in reserve for the group fund (and make sure everyone else does, too).

Couldn't hurt, anyway.


30.1k for the package? (Ask DM, many by 20th, yada yada)Yep. You are correct.

[bean illus]

Not sure what you're asking here. Do you mean 'can you add the multiple weapon crystal properties to a glove of wands?' Yeah, there's nothing stopping you, so long as you follow the correct procedures laid out in the MIC. Each weapon crystal property is considered separate, pricing-wise, so don't lump them all together as one 'weapon crystal property' and compare it to the glove of wands.

What i think I'm asking is, can we apply the weapon crystal to the glove of wands, by making it a weapon, and then add its bonuses to the bow/etc? No?

Are you saying enchant the glove a different way?

But we can beef up the wand glove?


If you can make the gloves work (and make sure to add gloves of the master strategist, casting gloves, ...snip ... then just make each side of the quarterstaff portion of the elvencraft bow of the wintermoon as a +1 weapon so your gloves' lesser weapon crystal properties always apply. Then add things like sizing, morphing, metalline, eager, and warning -- stuff that always apply so long as you're holding the weapon, or affect the whole weapon -- and split them between the two sides so that you minimize wasted money. You don't want to have the quarterstaff ends be enhanced as +1/+1 on one side and +1/+2/+2 on the other if you can avoid it, especially if you could split them into something a bit more equal (although this doesn't apply for certain weapon ability combos that all need to group together, of course).

Glove of casting, read loosely, allows using the staff without drawing it. The wording "and the effect is generated as if the wearer were holding the item. If the item has multiple functions, the wearer chooses one in the normal fashion", makes me imagine just flicking arrows from my quiver with one hand.
Now get one for each hand, and our 20 shots become 40. Lol. Ahem, but that's not what we're doin'.

So, how do i customize the Glove of wands. Nothing too crazy, but I'll take what i can get.
Or am i hearing you wrong?



If you're mainly going with a +1 enhancement bonus, there's not much point in stacking any greater weapon crystals on, due to greaters only applying to +3 and higher enhancement bonuses. If you have a ready source of high level greater magic weapon effects, then sure, but it just seems like spending the extra money for a standard +3 would be kind of meh for when you don't. (Especially if you don't want to use the tooth of Leraje for this.) If you think the expense is worthwhile to get the greater effects on a constant basis (and don't mind getting dispelled due to the weapon's lower caster level) then go ahead and spend the extra cash. It's your money, after all.

Currently I have +1 on the bow, and both ends. I do have access to Greater Magic Weapon, in wand form. Its expensive @ 36k for +5, but for 1/day emergency use, but it's there (for when no caster wants my 'protection').

The build threatens with bow, so no real need to put it use the staff. I'll look up your suggestions.



I think the only weapon crystals that are really worth stacking least, lesser, and greater effects would be the crystals of adamant weaponry (for lots of weapon hardness), the fiendslayer crystals (but only if you expect to fight a lot of evil outsiders), the truedeath crystals (likewise for lots of undead), and the crystals of security (that +17 vs disarm is handy). Unless you plan on having a highly variable enhancement bonus and always want the best weapon crystal at all times, anyway. Then you might want a bit more in the way of flexibility. Even then, it's mostly lesser and greater you want, with the least effect being largely superfluous.

Does that make any sense at all?


Most of it. Not all.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

What i think I'm asking is, can we apply the weapon crystal to the glove of wands, by making it a weapon, and then add its bonuses to the bow/etc? No?

Are you saying enchant the glove a different way?You don't need to make the gloves into weapons themselves to use them as weapon crystals (although making them gauntlets or spiked gauntlets is easy enough). Just leave them as gloves, though, so the idea of "only give bonuses to themselves" is less likely to happen.

I'm just suggesting, take whatever glo (https://www.realmshelps.net/magic/items/wondrousitems.shtml)ves you want, enhance as gloves of Dex or whatever, add the combined weapon crystal abilities to your dominant-hand glove for a +50% markup. If you wear both gloves, you gain the benefits of Dex gloves plus you can use the weapon crystal abilities on any weapon in your dominant hand (including 2-handers). If you only wear the one glove, you gain the weapon crystal abilities, but not the +Dex ability. Same goes with any glove (singular) or gloves (dual). Wear one for a one-glove benefit, but you must wear both gloves to gain benefits of item abilities that require both gloves.

If your DM requires that you wear both gloves to get the one-handed benefits, tell him that both hands would then gain the benefits (so dual-wielding and sword+shield are much better, in that case).


But we can beef up the wand glove?Not hard.


Glove of casting, read loosely, allows using the staff without drawing it. The wording "and the effect is generated as if the wearer were holding the item. If the item has multiple functions, the wearer chooses one in the normal fashion", makes me imagine just flicking arrows from my quiver with one hand.
Now get one for each hand, and our 20 shots become 40. Lol. Ahem, but that's not what we're doin'.It could be if you want.


So, how do i customize the Glove of wands. Nothing too crazy, but I'll take what i can get.
Or am i hearing you wrong?Take a pair of gloves (probably +Dex), figure out what you want to add to it that requires a pair of gloves (gauntlets of ogre power, for instance), then apply. Anything that isn't a common item ability (like +Dex or +Str) gets a +50% markup in cost...except the most expensive non-common item ability.

Then figure out which single-glove abilities (like the casting glove, weapon crystal abilities, or glove of the master strategist) that you want, then divvy them up amongst both gloves. Say you want a casting glove/glove of the master strategist/glove of wands combo on your off-hand, so you can use that hand for various things while wielding your main weapon in your other hand (which, of course, has your weapon crystal abilities on it).


Currently I have +1 on the bow, and both ends. I do have access to Greater Magic Weapon, in wand form. Its expensive @ 36k for +5, but for 1/day emergency use, but it's there (for when no caster wants my 'protection').A CL 20 wand of level 3 greater magic weapon would be 45,000 gp. (CL 20 x spell level 3 x 750 gp.)

Tooth of Leraje is less than half the cost, and it lasts forever. I'd suggest a schema, but boosted to CL 20 would be far too expensive.


The build threatens with bow, so no real need to put it use the staff. I'll look up your suggestions.That's pretty nice, although you'll still want quarterstaff ends available, both for cheaper enhancements (for metalline, say, and/or warning and eager), and for making melee attacks that don't provoke AoOs (which you'll definitely want).


Most of it. Not all.Let me know what more you want details on.

I mean, you could make a few raptor arrows out of shapesand, which you could load into the aforementioned sandblaster when you want to use it. That's pretty spiffy.