E6 for 5ed. E5? E7? E8?

[Boci]

So I've been wondering about E6 for 5e. In case not everyone knows what that it, it was an idea origional for D&D 3.5 that basically stopped levelling at level 6, and instead gave a bonus feat for every X amount expirience gathered. Now 5e has already fixed a lot of the reasons people liked E6 for in 3.5, but I'm interested in a game where 6 is the best a humanoid can ever hope to be. Even with the simple elegance of the system and the tamer power curve, level 20 in 5e is still very high powered.

The first question is, to adap a similar concept for 5e, is what level to make the cutoff. The idea is to choose a point where every class has grown distinct, has some unique features and gets some defining ability.

5th level isn't the worst, dedicated martial classes get extra attack, full casters get 3rd level spells, but with only one archetype feature what is meant to be a significant part of the character has limited presence, and fighters likely find themselves behind the other martial classes.

6th level fixes this, giving fighters 2 feats/ability score improvements, and most classes get a second archetype feature, unfortunatly the second archetype feature is often a stocking stuffer by design. Moondruids and monks get the ability to deal with magic resistance/immunity, but barbarians, land druids, and rangers, both the core and revised, get particularly dissapointing "capstones".

7th level is great for full casters who get 4th level spells as their capstone, paladins get a good buff to their aura, rogues get evasion and barbarians get danger sense, so its not terrible overall but casters are clearly favoured here.

8th level may be the best idea. A second ASI may not be the most interesting capstone, but it is universally appreciated, allowing all non-fighters to max their primary (assuming point buy), and fighters to take a feat on top of maxing their primary stat. The only obvious issue I see with this is that both archetype casters and ranger and paladins are both stuck with 2nd level spells, but that might not be a big issue.

If you would be interested in capped 5e play, what level wouls you want it to be at?

[ad_hoc]

Either level 8 or 10.

Classes are 'complete' somewhere between levels 5 and 7.

The Eldritch Knight is a good example of a class that doesn't complete its concept until level 7.

Level 10 makes sense to me as it is the level before the next tier.

My personal campaign preference is to play from levels 3 to 10 and then finish off with 1 adventure at level 11.

[sithlordnergal]

I would go for E8 at a minimum, though E10 seems the best option. 5e has a lower power curve than 3.5 did, so you don't really run into as many game breaking spells and things until after level 10. Level 10 also gives classes a pretty decent capstone of sorts. Paladins gain 3rd level spells and Aura of Courage, Rogues gain Reliable Talent, Wizards gain their Tradition Feature, Fighters gain another martial archtype, Bards get magical secrets, Barbarians gain their Path Feature, ect.

You have to also keep in mind that there aren't nearly as many feats in 5e as there were in 3.5. So you can't really supplement levels with feats like you could in 3.5.

[Kane0]

I vote 8. You can get both Extra Attack / 3rd level spells and an MC subclass.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

So I've been wondering about E6 for 5e. In case not everyone knows what that it, it was an idea origional for D&D 3.5 that basically stopped levelling at level 6, and instead gave a bonus feat for every X amount expirience gathered. Now 5e has already fixed a lot of the reasons people liked E6 for in 3.5, but I'm interested in a game where 6 is the best a humanoid can ever hope to be. Even with the simple elegance of the system and the tamer power curve, level 20 in 5e is still very high powered.

The first question is, to adap a similar concept for 5e, is what level to make the cutoff. The idea is to choose a point where every class has grown distinct, has some unique features and gets some defining ability.

5th level isn't the worst, dedicated martial classes get extra attack, full casters get 3rd level spells, but with only one archetype feature what is meant to be a significant part of the character has limited presence, and fighters likely find themselves behind the other martial classes.

6th level fixes this, giving fighters 2 feats/ability score improvements, and most classes get a second archetype feature, unfortunatly the second archetype feature is often a stocking stuffer by design. Moondruids and monks get the ability to deal with magic resistance/immunity, but barbarians, land druids, and rangers, both the core and revised, get particularly dissapointing "capstones".

7th level is great for full casters who get 4th level spells as their capstone, paladins get a good buff to their aura, rogues get evasion and barbarians get danger sense, so its not terrible overall but casters are clearly favoured here.

8th level may be the best idea. A second ASI may not be the most interesting capstone, but it is universally appreciated, allowing all non-fighters to max their primary (assuming point buy), and fighters to take a feat on top of maxing their primary stat. The only obvious issue I see with this is that both archetype casters and ranger and paladins are both stuck with 2nd level spells, but that might not be a big issue.

If you would be interested in capped 5e play, what level wouls you want it to be at?


Hi, my groups do E 10 with some modifications to the currents classes. The primary changes are below.

Subclass
Ribbon/minor perk @ 1 if needed

Feature @ 3, 6, and 10.

Saving Throw Proficiency

2 Full Prof (as normal for the class)

2 Half Prof (player chooses two, one good and one bad save)

Homebrew

Very much encouraged! Also it's a lot easier to make Homebrew when you have half the work to do.

Ability Scores

Can't raise ability scores above 18. This puts natural talent (ability score) and hard work (proficiency) on an even playing field.

Racial Ability Scores

You get the +2 in the primary ability score of your race, as normal. However, you can place the +1 in any other ability score you want. M. Dwarves get the second +2 but must be out into Str, Int, or Cha.... I forget what we do with V Half Elfs.

Humans

* Gain +1 to all stats
* Gain +1 language
* Gain +1 skill
* Gain +1 tool
May gain a feat from a list... Basically the half feats. Don't gain an ability score bonus from the feat if one on the list has it (I don't have the list on me).

Humans are basically "build a race".

We've seen way more tieflings with these racial rules than humans, though humans are still a good choice, just not the favorites.

So, with all these changes, and some I don't recall off the top of my head, e10 is amazing for us! We have an reachable end game, some premade awesome CR creatures that need slight adjustments and we can adjust higher CR creatures to fit against a level 10 party.

10 is a great level because 5e seems to have been made to be a 10 level game that they then later decided to expand.

[SLOTHRPG95]

I vote E10, since as has been noted, pretty much everyone gets something capstone-y at that level, and you're still avoiding whatever tier 3/4 problems you might want to avoid. With that said, I'd feel a little bad for Monk and Ranger, especially non-variant Ranger, and if I were running an E10 game I'd probably give them something nicer than Purity of Body and Hide in Plain Sight as 10th level capstones. Maybe I'd move Diamond Body to 10th to replace Purity of Body as the Monk's capstone, and I'd replace Hide in Plain Sight with the Ranger's 11th level archetype ability. That, or I'd just give them Foe Slayer.

[Arkhios]

Should I support the concept, I'd vote E10 as well, because IIRC, in the earliest editions most classes used to gain levels only up to 10th, and beyond that, they only got more hit points with X amount of experience, and nothing more.

There's also the fact that during D&D Next (5e playtest period), there was a time when each class had only maximum ten levels.

[BurgerBeast]

I’m pretty sure E10 has been done, I dare say by Grod. It was pretty well thought out and had a special way to handle multi-classing.

[Sigreid]

If you went this route, something you could do is take the higher level class and subclass features (not hitpoints or spells) and add them to the list of abilities that could be bought with the xp. The fighter could get more attacks, but couldn't soak more damage, and could get features from any of the other fighter subclasses in normal order. Wizards don't get more spells, but the subclass features let them do more with the spells they do get. That sort of thing.

I'd been looking at basically this idea for epic levels. Your HP and spell slots/known don't increase but you can buy other subclass/class abilities, or develop spellcasting up to level 20.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

If you went this route, something you could do is take the higher level class and subclass features (not hitpoints or spells) and add them to the list of abilities that could be bought with the xp. The fighter could get more attacks, but couldn't soak more damage, and could get features from any of the other fighter subclasses in normal order. Wizards don't get more spells, but the subclass features let them do more with the spells they do get. That sort of thing.


My groups do this to fill in some subclass and class features.

Moving a class feature +/- 3 levels doesn't seem to hurt much.

Like Ranger getting Hide in Plain Sight at 9th level and their 3rd subclass feature at 10th works well enough.

[JackPhoenix]

E11. Classes actually get stuff that feels like capstone. 6th level spell slot, 3rd attack for fighters, Improved Divine Smite, Reliable Talent.....

[Democratus]

E6 works very well. Keeps things like orcs, goblins and gnolls a credible threat even if you have been adventuring for a long time.

3rd level spells is a fine capstone for full casters.

[Arkhios]

E6 works very well. Keeps things like orcs, goblins and gnolls a credible threat even if you have been adventuring for a long time.

3rd level spells is a fine capstone for full casters.

You don't need E-whatever for that. Bounded accuracy keeps low level creatures a credible threat even at higher levels.

Personally, I like it when there's more targets than an amount equal to (or less than) the number of PC's. It makes things more interesting and keeps the PC's awake, instead of steamrolling through one big blob of hit points.

[Teaguethebean]

I am partial to E6 and E11. For E11 it all just works, Spellcasters get lv6 spells, Fighters get 3 attacks, Barbs get Relentless Rage, Monks get a subclass feature which is a little weak admittedly, Rangers get a useful subclass feature, Paladins get improved divine smite, rogues get reliable talent, and artificer gets spell storing item. Overall mostly all great capstones. E6 is similar but with a few weaker capstones, though none are useless and it could encourage having some interesting one level dips like a character making a pact with a fiend, or joining a clergy, and it keeps the world scary at all times when a dragon is still always a threat.

[Grey Watcher]

You have to also keep in mind that there aren't nearly as many feats in 5e as there were in 3.5. So you can't really supplement levels with feats like you could in 3.5.

Yeah, but the DMG has rules for getting various boons and blessings (not just epic ones), so between those and feats, the basic concept should still be viable.

That said, one thing 5e doesn't do nearly as much as 3.5 is ever-narrowing specialization. If you're whole shtick is non-magical battlefield control there are multiple feats in each of trip, push, pull, knock prone, etc. In 5e, there's at best one feat for each basic idea. Now, added versatility might be what you want anyway, but it still means you'll hit a dead end on "getting better at one thing" a lot sooner. A few feats do better, if you houserule that they can be taken multiple times (eg Martial Adept). So I guess ideally you'd want to expand and make explicit the options ahead of time. Or make an ability score increase an option as well.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I’m pretty sure E10 has been done, I dare say by Grod. It was pretty well thought out and had a special way to handle multi-classing.
I did indeed (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?576456-Variant-Grim-and-Gritty-5e). I went with 6th as a cut-off because that's where most classes get their second subclass ability; for the remainder (Fighter, Rogue, Ranger, Paladin) they can choose between their normal 6th level ability and the one they'd otherwise get at 7th. In addition, it allows characters to take a thematic dip in another class but makes serious multiclassing a choice with very real tradeoffs, rather than the no-brainer I'd argue it to be in E7.

The disadvantage of E6 (or E7, or wherever you draw the line) in 5e as opposed to 3.5 is that 5e has far fewer options for what to do with ASIs. You can only boost your stats so high; there are only so many feats that will actually help your character. So the bulk of my work went into designing "Capstone" feats that continue to progress your class in small ways-- Barbarians get more rages, Warlocks more invocations, and so on.

[47Ace]

I would be hesitate to do E10 partially because leaving martial characters a level away from their 11th level power up seems a bit cruel, particularly if you for some reason give rangers their level 11 abilities. Depending on subclass rangers do get a conditional third attack which is not exactly fair to the fighter who are still stuck with 3 attacks. The problem with E11/12 is that I think the point of the E variants is avoiding 6th level plus spells. I thing E8 or E9 makes the most sense for 5e though i get the arguments for E6 and E10 as well. I could see E10 with the Martial/At will characters all getting their level 11 power up. (i.e. warlocks get 3 EBs, fighters get 3 attacks, Paladin gets IDS, rangers and monks get their level 11 subclass feature, barbarians and rouges get their level 11 sneak attack or rage damage progression) spellcasters could get level 11 cantrips and saome extra spell slots maybe. Basically E10.5.

[Joe the Rat]

I would be inclined to go 7 (low) or 11 (high/heroic) for the cut.

- There are some good features at 7, you hit 4th level spells, the 4th invocation, war Magic, etc. Multiclassing can get you two archetypes (three if you are dedicated), or extra attack and a dip.

- 11th is a solid power capstone as well - 3rd attack, one 6th level spell, 6th invocation, spell storing, halfway decent ranger tricks, etc. It puts you right on the bottom of Tier 3, so you are still going to be dealing with power shenanigans.

For both of those, the next level on a single class is an ASI - seems like a natural transition point.



Should I support the concept, I'd vote E10 as well, because IIRC, in the earliest editions most classes used to gain levels only up to 10th, and beyond that, they only got more hit points with X amount of experience, and nothing more.

There's also the fact that during D&D Next (5e playtest period), there was a time when each class had only maximum ten levels.Sort of the inverse - at 9th or 10th, you stop getting hit dice and instead get a fix hit point increase. Basic editions cut off nonhuman classes, Advanced editions had gradual matrix/thac0 advancement and spell progression. This is part of what made wizards quadratic.

I think this is a big part of what En is capturing - hit points staying in the "won't survive re-entry" and less runaway numbers in general, right at the martial/magic linear/quadratic balance point.

[MrStabby]

Probably level 9. This avoids clerics divine intervention - a big spike in what can be done (I don't say a big spike in power, because of its unreliability, but a big spike in one class being able to do something much more awesome than the others).

Level 9 gives half casters 3rd level spells and all classes pick up at least two subclass features. 5th level spells are a bit much but at level 9 there are not many of them. Arcane trickster can reach its powerful ability at 9, which is a must. This gives moon druids wildshape of CR 3 beasts but no elemental wildshape. Monks get their super cool movement, which is thematically awesome.

[Doug Lampert]

E-whatever first existed due to increasing power disparities at high level, and to casters getting abilities that were hard to deal with if used sensibly and upset the world design.

5th edition I think there is a simpler solution. I'd simply declare that spells above level X don't exist except as prolonged rituals cast in a lab. Then I'd pick level X appropriately (probably level 3).

I don't really see martial's power getting out of hand, and with scaling use of the slots, casters can still do something with their higher level slots. You then reduce the problem to how to rewrite major arcana for warlocks, and everyone otherwise gets what they'd normally get.

[Teaguethebean]

E-whatever first existed due to increasing power disparities at high level, and to casters getting abilities that were hard to deal with if used sensibly and upset the world design.

5th edition I think there is a simpler solution. I'd simply declare that spells above level X don't exist except as prolonged rituals cast in a lab. Then I'd pick level X appropriately (probably level 3).

I don't really see martial's power getting out of hand, and with scaling use of the slots, casters can still do something with their higher level slots. You then reduce the problem to how to rewrite major arcana for warlocks, and everyone otherwise gets what they'd normally get.

This sounds like a horrible idea in all fairness. The casters would practically be wasting there time with more levels as classes like paladin, fighter, rogue, and barbarians all continue getting good features. Furthermore paladins, rangers, and artificers would be casting just as powerful spells at high levels as the wizards and sorcerers.

[Griswold]

Part of the excitement of E6 back in 3.5E was that you got extra feats, potentially a lot more than you would normally. It made a number of builds viable or even possible (like the Drow Fighter who took all the racial feats to get tons of spellcasting).

Because of that, I would avoid E8. A capstone of another ASI/feat is pretty boring in an E6-style game. I'd expect a lot of players to multiclass that last level.

I'd go E6 or possibly E7. The only downside to E6 is that Fighter 6 becomes a lot less attractive of a choice (for the same reason as E8). Ranger 6 is pretty lame too, but so are all Ranger 6+ levels.

[Zman]

I like E10 with one caveat, 5th level slots exist, but not 5th level spells. Anything that would be a 5th level spell becomes effectively a ritual.

[Democratus]

You don't need E-whatever for that. Bounded accuracy keeps low level creatures a credible threat even at higher levels.


Without the bounded hit points from an 'E' system minor creatures like orcs and goblins really aren't a threat. I don't care if a kobold can hit me and do 8 damage if I have 150 hit points. I could kill any reasonable number of them before they become a threat. Low to-hit numbers means that very few of them will hit my high-level character's AC before I mop the floor with them.

If I only have 50 hit points because I maxed out at level 6, it is a different prospect altogether.

[Arkhios]

Without the bounded hit points from an 'E' system minor creatures like orcs and goblins really aren't a threat. I don't care if a kobold can hit me and do 8 damage if I have 150 hit points. I could kill any reasonable number of them before they become a threat. Low to-hit numbers means that very few of them will hit my high-level character's AC before I mop the floor with them.

If I only have 50 hit points because I maxed out at level 6, it is a different prospect altogether.

Higher level ≠ highest level.

[Democratus]

Higher level ≠ highest level.

If the highest level is 6, it generally does. :)