Ultimate gish - who is it for you? Bladesinger? Arcane Cleric? Sorcadin? Bardadin?

[Benny89]

I would like to discuss who IN YOUR OPINION is the ultimate gish when it comes to 5e builds. And why!

Requirements:

1. Must be able to cast up to 9th level spells
2. Must be able to fight and survive at front line (either by high AC, good spells, CC , heals etc. whatever)
3. Must be able to deliver decent/great melee damage (doesn't matter how, with feats or with blade cantrips or with spell buffs) while mixing in spell damage/CC.
4. Should be viable from tier 1 to tier 4 (so no builds that become ultimate on level 15+ cause almost nobody plays there anyway).


So my types:

1. 2 Paladin/18 Divine Soul Sorcerer:

Pros: Being able to quicken Booming Blade, Smite with spells slot, access to Cleric spells like Spirit Guardians, Revivify etc. Can be played as Cleric or Sorcerer. Can deal sustain damage with SG + Cantrips and save smitting for big bad guy. Medium Armor with Con proficiency if started as Sorcerer ( RES CON not needed to take). Counterspell (though not on the best chasis). Can go SAD with Hexblade dip. Even with 2 dips the progression is quite smooth due to having smites, blade cantrips and quicken amounts increasing each level. Level 8 he reaches his top power and only gets better.

Cons: Unless he Quicken blade cantrip his damage in melee is not impressive so each fight takes a lot of resources, especially if you want to maximize smitting. Not many spells known, not that good defense if Shield is down. Can't learn Simulacrum. MAD without Hexblade, need to invest in STR/DEX + CHA. ASI HEAVY - STR/DEX + CHA.


2. Arcane Cleric Variant Human with Shillelagh from Magic Initiate: Druid at level 1.

Pros: Very good sustain melee damage scalling after level 8 (double adding his WIS modifier to damage and rider), using Green Flame Blade and Booming Blade. Medium Armor, shields. Good AC. Tons of great Cleric spells, free dispel magic on healing. Tons of spells known for different occasions. At level 17 can learn Can't learn Simulacrum + ANY level 6,8 and 9 level spell. That means Wish, Contingency and Power Word: Stun for example (or what ever you want). Divine Intervention + Wish = what? Great support too. SAD, no need for any dips.

Cons: Lack of any real burst if needed. Pure sustain damage. No smites, no big burst spells. Requires Warcaster and RES (CON) later. No Counterspell.

3. Variant Human Bladesinger (if you can convience your DM with some "orphan" backstory) with Sentinel feat.

Pros: Combining Mirror image with Sentinel Feat and at level 6 can attack up to 3 times (2 attacks + reaction attack from Sentinel if someone hits his Mirror Image). Full Wizard so access to all awesome wizard spells, which is huge. Can still throw fireballs etc. Using Shadow Blade to perform up to 3 attacks per turn + Crown Of Stars/MMM on bonus action can lead to good sustain DPR. At level 14 adding INT mod to damage of melee attacks (allowing him to deal good damage with good magical weapon without relying on Shadowblade). Good AC (20 DEX + Studded Leather + Blade Song 20 INT is 22 AC, 27 with Shield).

Cons: without Shadow Blade their melee damage is poor until level 14. That also means no "Good melee damage + good concentration spell going". ASI "SUPER HEAVY". MAD, needs to max DEX for melee, INT for bladesong. Variant Human Sentinel Feat would need level 12 to have 18 DEX and 20 INT, level 16 to have 20 DEN and 20 INT. Good AC, but poor HP. Need to pre-buff with few spells every time to be viable on front line.


My favourite one and in my opinion best gish is Vuman Arcane Cleric with Magi Initiate. My reasons for my pick are:

1. Single Class progression! No need for dips, pure cleric with Wish on level 17. Come on.
2. "Free" melee damage that scales very well with blade cantrips and great scalling thanks to 2x WIS to hit. No resources needed.
3. Tons of great cleric spells supporting frontline playstyle (Spirit Guardians, Healing Word, Spiritual Weapon, Bless, Heal). Good CC + Damage with Spirit Guardians.
4. Shields + Medium Armor.
5. Using ordinary quarterstaff as engine of destruction or simple club. Thanks to druid cantrip- access to magic weapon from level 1.
6. Getting level 6,7,8,9 Wizard spells at level 17, stealing a little bit of Magic Secrets here!
7. If you want to multiclass- 1 level of Fighter at start will give you 1 extra AC from dueling, 1 extra AC from Heavy Armos AND proficiency in CON save. You only need 13 DEX to do it, which you will have. Only 1 level delay.
8. SAD. WIS is your main stat for damage and spells.
9. Free dispel magic with healing word just based on slot level? YES PLEASE!

Sorcadin was my second but every time I play one I feel like if I want to play him to full fun during session I burn through resources like crazy....


Who is your "ultimate gish" and best build for him?

[AgenderArcee]

I'm not sure if I have one favorite but I definitely feel like you're missing the Hexblade/Fighter. My preference is Warlock 17/Fighter 3 with Eldritch Knight, just to have a couple extra 1st level spell slots for Shield and such. Fighter 1 -> Hexblade 5 -> Fighter 2-3 -> Hexblade 17.

1. Start Fighter for heavy armor and Con save proficiency.
2. Completely SAD with both melee and the best ranged cantrip damage. Use those extra ASIs for your choice of feats (GWM is a nice addition).
3. Hex and Hexblade's Curse from Warlock 1, with major improvement at 14.
4. Eldritch Invocations: Thirsting Blade, Eldritch Smite, Relentless Hex and Lifedrinker for additional damage boosts, plus nice utility invocations like Mask of Many Faces and Devil's Sight, and later Shroud of Shadows and Witch Sight!
5. Four 5th-level short rest slots!
6. Even works as a Sharpshooter archer build that can use Eldritch Smite at range!
7. Shadow of Moil - Darkness/Devil's Sight advantage without all the fuss, plus a free reaction attack!
8. Mystic Arcanum for 6th-9th level spells!
9. Action Surge for extra nova damage or spellcasting!

Hexblade: it's not just a dip!

One thing I think you also didn't mention in your Bladesinger writeup was the godly Marilith Shapechange option. 189 HP, 18+Int AC, six damage resistances and one immunity, three extra saving throws including +10 Con save, and SEVEN attacks with a 2d8 longsword and grappling tail, all of which add your Int mod. Free teleport. Free parry reaction. Magic resistance. Truesight. And a reaction on EVERY turn in combat. I've never actually SEEN it done, and it's a bit cheesy, but it is ridiculously good.

[Keravath]

I don't know about best ... but a hexblade warlock does a decent job ... but needs a lot of investment from feats. It also relies on using darkness+devils sight or shadows of moil to regularly generate advantage and increase its effectiveness.

- variant human (start with PAM for the extra attack)
- invocations: devils sight, improved pact weapon(3), thirsting blade (5), agonizing blast (7), +others + lifedrinker (12 warlock).
- medium armor + shields for a decent AC
- reasonable d8 based hit points.
- using point buy start with 8 14 15 10 10 16
- ASIs: PAM, GWM, resilient con, +2 cha, +2 cha
- spells: hex, darkness ... shield is an option but not very efficient - usually better to multiclass into sorcerer to pick up low level spell slots and spells/cantrips
- one level of shadow sorcerer gives 120' perfect vision in all lighting conditions (also somewhat thematic with hexblade)
- eventually get three levels of sorcerer so that you can quicken shadow of moil in the first round and also attack
- low resource usage since it only needs darkness or shadows of moil (or hex as a fall back for creatures with blindsight)

Ultimately ... you get 3 attacks/turn ... usually made with advantage ... for d10+20, d10+20, d4+20 (or d10+20 on turns where something goes down or you crit) (assuming 20 charisma)

It also has one 9th level spell from mystic arcanum (likely foresight I would think).

Anyway, as far as being a melee focused gish type character I think that 17 hexblade/3 shadow sorcerer does a decent job.

[Benny89]

I'm not sure if I have one favorite but I definitely feel like you're missing the Hexblade/Fighter. My preference is Warlock 17/Fighter 3 with Eldritch Knight, just to have a couple extra 1st level spell slots for Shield and such. Fighter 1 -> Hexblade 5 -> Fighter 2-3 -> Hexblade 17.

1. Start Fighter for heavy armor and Con save proficiency.
2. Completely SAD with both melee and the best ranged cantrip damage. Use those extra ASIs for your choice of feats (GWM is a nice addition).
3. Hex and Hexblade's Curse from Warlock 1, with major improvement at 14.
4. Eldritch Invocations: Thirsting Blade, Eldritch Smite, Relentless Hex and Lifedrinker for additional damage boosts, plus nice utility invocations like Mask of Many Faces and Devil's Sight, and later Shroud of Shadows and Witch Sight!
5. Four 5th-level short rest slots!
6. Even works as a Sharpshooter archer build that can use Eldritch Smite at range!
7. Shadow of Moil - Darkness/Devil's Sight advantage without all the fuss, plus a free reaction attack!
8. Mystic Arcanum for 6th-9th level spells!
9. Action Surge for extra nova damage or spellcasting!

Hexblade: it's not just a dip!

One thing I think you also didn't mention in your Bladesinger writeup was the godly Marilith Shapechange option. 189 HP, 18+Int AC, six damage resistances and one immunity, three extra saving throws including +10 Con save, and SEVEN attacks with a 2d8 longsword and grappling tail, all of which add your Int mod. Free teleport. Free parry reaction. Magic resistance. Truesight. And a reaction on EVERY turn in combat. I've never actually SEEN it done, and it's a bit cheesy, but it is ridiculously good.

I didn't miss Hexblade because I don't think of him as full caster. He can only cast 1 level 9th spell but he is ultimately cut to 5th level slots. He is definitely more on melee side than caster side. What I was looking for is gish that is both full caster and good melee fighter.

Hexblade is great melee fighter (and one of my fav builds), especially with Fighter dip for Heavy Armor + CON proficiencies + fighting style. He is also great rane fighter with SS + Crossbow Expert build which combines great with Life Drinker and his Smites.

But ultimately he is not full caster, which is something I would like to keep when it comes to "ultimate" gish build.

[MrStabby]

I have been eying up a few things and I am considering hexblade/lore bard.

Hexblade 1 gives decent enough armour and shields to be in melee. Makes us SAD. Also gives us access to two of armour of agathys, shield and wrathful smite. Importantly can also pick up booming blade.

Lore bard at 3 gives us cutting words, nice to add to wrathful smite and is generally cool. Also more spell slots for the great low level warlock spells. Heat metal is a great spell to use a bonus action on.

Lore bard to 6 let's us take some 3rd level magical secrets. Spiritual guardians is a great control spell and rewards us for being up in peoples faces.

The idea is not to be a melee presence that can also cast spells, but rather to be a caster that has a melee role because of spells.

[nickl_2000]

I haven't seen anyone mention Valor Bard yet, is there a reason for that?

I haven't played one yet, but they fit the criteria well.

[bendking]

I'll just say the Paladin 6/Sorcerer 14 is better than Paladin 2/Sorcerer 18 if you want an actual gish.
Also, Bladesinger isn't really a gish. His melee isn't all that impressive. He's more of a "battlemage" who can survive longer in close range than other Wizards. He would still usually not be in melee unless built for that.

Here's my list of gishes:
1. Eldritch Knight 11/Wizard 9 | Eldritch Knight 11/Cleric 9
2. Paladin 6/Sorcerer 14 | Other combinations
3. Arcane Trickster 20 | Arcane Trickster 9/Bladesinger 11
4. Tempest/Forge/War/Arcana Cleric 20
5. Tempest Cleric 2/Storm Sorcerer 18
6. Paladin 6/Bard 14
7. Hexblade 1/Swords Bard 19
8. Hexblade 20

And probably more that I forgot.

[Skylivedk]

I didn't miss Hexblade because I don't think of him as full caster. He can only cast 1 level 9th spell but he is ultimately cut to 5th level slots. He is definitely more on melee side than caster side. What I was looking for is gish that is both full caster and good melee fighter.

Hexblade is great melee fighter (and one of my fav builds), especially with Fighter dip for Heavy Armor + CON proficiencies + fighting style. He is also great rane fighter with SS + Crossbow Expert build which combines great with Life Drinker and his Smites.

But ultimately he is not full caster, which is something I would like to keep when it comes to "ultimate" gish build.

I would definitely include Hexblade, but that's where we differ.

I'd really like to try Abjurer X / Paladin 2 or 3 (conquest) / Hexblade 1 (if Paladin 2, otherwise 0). The Hexblade version is probably stronger.

Best spell list in the game, AoA makes you tanky as high hell and combines tremendously with your ward. Dwarf might be worth considering to ignore the Strength requirement on heavy armour. Otherwise, go either vhuman or whatever nets you int.

Warcaster is a must. Rest can go to int and maybe sentinel (doubting if it's worth it for to reactive ward and counterspell).

The build is one of those beautiful tank setups: doomed if you do attack, doomed if you don't. Heavy on control, solid on damage and defensive metrics.

[Skylivedk]

I haven't seen anyone mention Valor Bard yet, is there a reason for that?

I haven't played one yet, but they fit the criteria well.

Normal POV is that they aren't good enough in combat. Mostly they're a good way to be a bard with good AC and full progression

[Spiritchaser]

But ultimately he is not full caster, which is something I would like to keep when it comes to "ultimate" gish build.

This is obviously a matter of opinion, but for whatever it’s worth, I’d strongly disagree. In my opinion warlock is very definitely a full caster, it’s just a weird one, with rest requirements that may occasionally, make players or the DM pull their hair out.

If the measurement is raw spell casting power, high level warlock’s with proper rest distribution can totally hang with the cool crowd.

We could have a discussion about limited spell selection, but we’d have to talk about sorcerer as well.

[Benny89]

I have been eying up a few things and I am considering hexblade/lore bard.

Hexblade 1 gives decent enough armour and shields to be in melee. Makes us SAD. Also gives us access to two of armour of agathys, shield and wrathful smite. Importantly can also pick up booming blade.

Lore bard at 3 gives us cutting words, nice to add to wrathful smite and is generally cool. Also more spell slots for the great low level warlock spells. Heat metal is a great spell to use a bonus action on.

Lore bard to 6 let's us take some 3rd level magical secrets. Spiritual guardians is a great control spell and rewards us for being up in peoples faces.

The idea is not to be a melee presence that can also cast spells, but rather to be a caster that has a melee role because of spells.

He is not bad gish, especially his Dissonant Whisper - > Warcaster Booming Blade OA -> explosion combo is really nice when combined with Spirit Guardians. But he does not scale really well (he lacks potent spell casting like Arcana or Quicken like Sorlock/cadin. But Dissonant Whipser->Booming Blade is still great combo that I was using for quite a long time. Though it's worth to note that this combo is basically WIS save fail or NOTHING at all.

However I still think Lore Bard is best with 2 Hexblade and Conjure Animals, spamming Repelling Agonizing Blast from Distance and letting his Conjured Animals do dirty work, preventing nuking them with Counterspell. And Dissonant Whisper works great with Conjure animals, provoking tons of OAs.

Worth mention is also 1 Hexblade/Whisper Bard doing the same combo of Dissonant Whisper - > Booming Blade -> Physic Blades can really play well with Warcaster and Mobile feat stacking that one attack. Should combo well with Spirit Guardians.

[MrStabby]

I haven't seen anyone mention Valor Bard yet, is there a reason for that?

I haven't played one yet, but they fit the criteria well.

I think it comes down to the spell selection if I am honest. To be good, there should be slightly less of a conflict between casting a spell and making the attack action. Spells that can be cast outside of combat or as a bonus action or a reaction are golden. Valor bard is good, but will mainly be using actions to cast spells rather than than "fighting".


He is not bad gish, especially his Dissonant Whisper - > Warcaster Booming Blade OA -> explosion combo is really nice when combined with Spirit Guardians. But he does not scale really well (he lacks potent spell casting like Arcana or Quicken like Sorlock/cadin. But Dissonant Whipser->Booming Blade is still great combo that I was using for quite a long time. Though it's worth to note that this combo is basically WIS save fail or NOTHING at all.

However I still think Lore Bard is best with 2 Hexblade and Conjure Animals, spamming Repelling Agonizing Blast from Distance and letting his Conjured Animals do dirty work, preventing nuking them with Counterspell. And Dissonant Whisper works great with Conjure animals, provoking tons of OAs.

Worth mention is also 1 Hexblade/Whisper Bard doing the same combo of Dissonant Whisper - > Booming Blade -> Physic Blades can really play well with Warcaster and Mobile feat stacking that one attack. Should combo well with Spirit Guardians.

I think that there is a challenge with high level gish in that high level spells are so good that they will tend to dominate anything you could do as a fighter. How many attacks per turn would you need to be as effective as you would be casting forcecage? In my mind a good gish should be able to fight and cast spells well, but at high levels it is the spellcasting that will dominate as long as you are looking to use resources.


I have played with a hexblade/whispers bard before which was great fun - although I went hexblade 5 bard X for that. Great combination, great fun - in the mid levels at least. Two attacks, two types of smite, lots of control... but this build wouldn't qualify with the OP restrictions as with 5 levels of hexblade you don't get level 9 spells.

[Benny89]

I think it comes down to the spell selection if I am honest. To be good, there should be slightly less of a conflict between casting a spell and making the attack action. Spells that can be cast outside of combat or as a bonus action or a reaction are golden. Valor bard is good, but will mainly be using actions to cast spells rather than than "fighting".



I think that there is a challenge with high level gish in that high level spells are so good that they will tend to dominate anything you could do as a fighter. How many attacks per turn would you need to be as effective as you would be casting forcecage? In my mind a good gish should be able to fight and cast spells well, but at high levels it is the spellcasting that will dominate as long as you are looking to use resources.


I have played with a hexblade/whispers bard before which was great fun - although I went hexblade 5 bard X for that. Great combination, great fun - in the mid levels at least. Two attacks, two types of smite, lots of control... but this build wouldn't qualify with the OP restrictions as with 5 levels of hexblade you don't get level 9 spells.

That is why the best Gishes (not melee so not meeting requirements) are Crossbow Expert Sharpshooters Hexblade/Sword or Whisper bardsbut sadly that is not melee build but he has best "curve", being strong from level 1 (2 attacks, Sharpshooter, Fearie Fire) to level 15 + (Tenser + Haste + Simulacrium 150 DPR is better and more sustain than most spells). Sadly there is no feat for one-handed melee that could stand vs GWM or SS. If we had feat like that (let's say even -3/+5) - this would open up so many more options.

We could in theory make 2 Paladin/18 Sword Bard but again- Madness. Shadowblade is not a bad option, but it can't be used with your spellcasting attribute, so again- Madness.

The SADness thing is one of most important thing for Gish becasue it allows for melee and spell DC to scale together. Hence why Sorlocks, Bardlocks and Arcane Clerics are so good gishes. Sorcadins are great but only if you rolled well.

[Quietus]

We could in theory make 2 Paladin/18 Sword Bard but again- Madness. Shadowblade is not a bad option, but it can't be used with your spellcasting attribute, so again- Madness.

I played this character to level 11 in AL, and I can tell you, I never felt like I had nothing to contribute. Swords bard 3/pal 2/bard x, there were a few levels where I felt a little behind between 6-8 until I got extra attack, but I was still able to support my team through spells and clever flourishes. Once I hit level 8, my typical combat involved casting one concentration spell to shape the battlefield, and then engaging in melee, using smites where needed.

I did make this dex based, so I was all but stuck with half elf, so I could start with 13 str, 16 dex/cha, 14 con. But I had a blast playing him.

[Dankus Memakus]

I've seen some swords bards play a gish pretty awesomely. If you wanna make it SAD splash in a little hexblade and get that wonderful curse and the CHA mod weapons and go to town.

[loki_ragnarock]

Valor bards, in general. They hit a better non-selfish angle for me than the sword's bard. Being able to let anyone in the party effectively cast shield with nothing more than a bonus action isn't small time, though often undervalued. They're also very tanky primary arcane casters in games that don't allow multi-classing.

Paladin 2/ Valor Bard X for something more optimal(?).

Smites with spell slots for days, a second attack (albeit late), skills aplenty, and magical secrets (that come online with a weird level interaction allowing you to pick up that 9th level spell) mean you will probably be appropriate for every occasion, allowing you to one man band in a game meant for team play.

Fight + Spell + Skill = The Whole Package

[Arkhios]

As much as I hate to admit it, Pact of the Blade Hexblade Warlock. I'm not a huge fan of warlocks to begin with but even I can't ignore its potential, especially in this regard.

[47Ace]

Not melee but it is worth mentioning that valor and swords bards with the 5th level ranger spell (as a magical secret) that lets you make two ranged attacks as a bonus action gives you 4 attacks and 9th level spells.

[Benny89]

Valor bards, in general. They hit a better non-selfish angle for me than the sword's bard. Being able to let anyone in the party effectively cast shield with nothing more than a bonus action isn't small time, though often undervalued. They're also very tanky primary arcane casters in games that don't allow multi-classing.

Paladin 2/ Valor Bard X for something more optimal(?).

Smites with spell slots for days, a second attack (albeit late), skills aplenty, and magical secrets (that come online with a weird level interaction allowing you to pick up that 9th level spell) mean you will probably be appropriate for every occasion, allowing you to one man band in a game meant for team play.

Fight + Spell + Skill = The Whole Package

Valor or Sword bard in melee suck when it comes to damage. You need to splash Paladin 2 so at least you can smite (but then you eat tons of resources every fight and you are MAD. Bards don't have anything to support their melee. Even 1 Hexblade makes them only SAD but their melee damage is still bad. Hex is only 1d6 to 2 attacks and takes concetration which would be better for something likes Spirit Guardians or heavy CC. Curse is only vs one enemy, once per short rest.

You need to either go for Hand Crossbow + Crossbow Expert + Sharpshooter to make their damage on par/superior to something like Sorlock or Arcana Clerics or multiclass to Paladin 2, but then you are not SAD and if you got 2 Pala/1 Hex/17 Bard you are 3 levels behind ASI and spells.

Bards are awesome but I think they are not good melee gishes. Range gish or Eldricht Blast jack-of-all-trades - definitely. But not melee.

[Teaguethebean]

I came here to champion the arcana cleric for all the same reasons. It is a powerhouse in melee from level one and it is still a powerful caster with all the cleric goodies along with practically freee dispeling magic on allies and even getting wish and forcecage at level 17. And with pontent spellcasting stacked with shillelagh+booming blade if you can force movement you do your wisdom modifier an extra three times for at lv8 a damage total of 5d8+20.

[Misterwhisper]

I came here to champion the arcana cleric for all the same reasons. It is a powerhouse in melee from level one and it is still a powerful caster with all the cleric goodies along with practically freee dispeling magic on allies and even getting wish and forcecage at level 17. And with pontent spellcasting stacked with shillelagh+booming blade if you can force movement you do your wisdom modifier an extra three times for at lv8 a damage total of 5d8+20.

Arcana cleric is also great as the Velcro tank. Spirit guardians combined with sentinel or war caster or both, using booming blade is great.

[Chronos]

Whereas in my view, if you do get 9th level slots, you're not a gish, you're just a full-caster (albeit perhaps a somewhat swordy one). To me, the 5e paladin (as is, without mixing in warlock or sorcerer or whatever) is the model of a gish.

[bendking]

I'll just say the Paladin 6/Sorcerer 14 is better than Paladin 2/Sorcerer 18 if you want an actual gish.
Also, Bladesinger isn't really a gish. His melee isn't all that impressive. He's more of a "battlemage" who can survive longer in close range than other Wizards. He would still usually not be in melee unless built for that.

Here's my list of gishes:
1. Eldritch Knight 11/Wizard 9 | Eldritch Knight 11/Cleric 9
2. Paladin 6/Sorcerer 14 | Other combinations
3. Arcane Trickster 20 | Arcane Trickster 9/Bladesinger 11
4. Tempest/Forge/War/Arcana Cleric 20
5. Tempest Cleric 2/Storm Sorcerer 18
6. Paladin 6/Bard 14
7. Hexblade 1/Swords Bard 19
8. Hexblade 20

And probably more that I forgot.

[Derpldorf]

Artillerist Artificer/Battle Master Fighter is actually my pick for favorite at this moment. It gets you a really solid suite of spells\maneuvers\infusions\abilities and those flamethrower turrets are a gishes best friends. Your basically a Space Marine.

[Mr Adventurer]

It doesn't meet the OP criteria but for my own curiosity: Eldritch Knight 11/War Mage 9, does that work? I figure you'd need to think carefully about the breakpoints - EK 3/WM 2 to start.

[Deathtongue]

Arcana Cleric only works as a gish in games with no magical items, which are much more rare than is polite to discuss in CharOp. Losing Extra Attack really, really hurts.

But really, all of the gishes except for the GWM Sorcadin have trouble functioning as gishes as the game goes on. Not because their damage drops off, but because spells just get too good and they're gated by the concentration mechanic. Spells like Animate Objects and Conjure Elemental will do slightly more damage than Tenser's and Swift Quiver and 5th-level Shadow Blade -- but then the other spellcasters don't have to run as gishes to get these goodies.

There are ways to still make gishes not be a meme option at higher level, but they generally involve dumping a lot of magical items in the game. A magic-item free Hexabard's damage starts really falling off at around level 10 or so -- unless the DM makes goodies like Flametongue Greatswords and Winged Boots available.

[Vin_]

My submission: Hexblade 1, Swords Bard X. Powerful and versatile at all levels, also gets skills and Jack of all Trades. Turns a regular Swords Bard into an insane AC tank. Plenty of HP due to AoA.
Makes him SAD with Charisma for the best casting as well as face skills.

Variant Human: Warcaster. Better con saves and a great reaction attack with Booming Blade.
First level of Warlock. Medium Armor, Shields, Booming Blade and another cantrip, Shield and Armor of Agathys.

By level three of Bard you have the dueling fighting style, and the ability to use a defensive flourish for +1d6 to your AC. You can save your low level spells for shield and pump your AC to ridiculous levels (23-28).

Level four of Bard your booming Blade scales to hold you over until extra attack. No PAM so you are free to use whatever magical one handed weapons you find.

Level seven of Bard you get polymorph for a hit point sack and giant ape arms.

Level nine of Bard you get the great animate objects spell for straight dpr.

You have a crazy opportunity attack with Booming Blade + Warcaster. You can use the dissonant whispers trick as well.

Another alternate is going Rakdos Background for Haste as well as PAM and nailing people for four attacks with your spear + Cha + dueling + Hexblades curse. You can also while hasted still cast non concentration spells and haste attack + bonus action attack. Shatter, Blindness deafness, dissonant whispers, etc.

Anyway I love that build. Super strong at all levels, and you get something great at every level.

[Ashrym]

Not optimized but a straight lore bard is fun.

Variant human at 1st level for moderately armored allows for good AC and 16 CON/CHA using point buy. Warcaster at 4th level then shillelagh and booming blade at 6th level for that combo.

A couple decent paladin smite spells at 10th level fills out the gish interactive feel more.

Tough at 16th level gets the build additional hit points at high level.

[Benny89]

Arcana Cleric only works as a gish in games with no magical items, which are much more rare than is polite to discuss in CharOp. Losing Extra Attack really, really hurts.

But really, all of the gishes except for the GWM Sorcadin have trouble functioning as gishes as the game goes on. Not because their damage drops off, but because spells just get too good and they're gated by the concentration mechanic. Spells like Animate Objects and Conjure Elemental will do slightly more damage than Tenser's and Swift Quiver and 5th-level Shadow Blade -- but then the other spellcasters don't have to run as gishes to get these goodies.

There are ways to still make gishes not be a meme option at higher level, but they generally involve dumping a lot of magical items in the game. A magic-item free Hexabard's damage starts really falling off at around level 10 or so -- unless the DM makes goodies like Flametongue Greatswords and Winged Boots available.

That is not true. It depends how you build your character really. But I agree that Animated Objects will usually deal more damage than melee gishes simply because unless you go GWM + PAM = they simply do not have DPR for it.

But let's take character level 15. Let's say pure caster upcasted level 8 Animated Objects, creating 16 Daggers.

Each dagger is attacking for 1d4 + 4, which gives us 16d4 + 65, so 105 DPR. Which is nice. Great against single target. Let's add to that Crown of Stars bonus attack (why not, let's bum it up) for 26 additional damage. That is 131 damage per turn. Nice. Level 8 and level 7 slot used.

Now for example let's take 1 Hexblade/14 Whisper Bard with Corssbow Expert and Sharpshooter, using Tenser Transformation + Haste from Simulacrum. Whisper (2d12 + d6 + 15) x 4 + 8d6, which is 148 dpr. Slot used: 6 and 3 from Sim (so only one 6th level slot which is yours). Add to that Pegasus from Find Greater Steed and you have combo that exceeds DPR of spells and lower cost during combat and work both in range and in melee. And you can enchance that with Hexblade Curse for another 20 damage, which gives 168 DPR.

So it is possible for gish to funcion based on his attacks but it requies:

1. Multiattack.
2. Multiattack enchance, by either Holy Weapon, Tenser, Smites, Physic Blades etc. so damage can scale on higher levels.
3. Sharpshooter + Crossbow expert or PAM + GWM because having vs not having extra 30 DPR per turn is huge.
4. Source of advantage to offset -5 to hit.

Hexblade is another gish that can reach high DPR if he combines either PAM + GWM or Crossbow Expert + SS with +5 to damage, +5 from life drinker, +10 from feat and + 5 from Curse and burning slot of Smite. Can reach around 120 DPR. However, his spell casting is rather poor compare to full caster gishes and he can use max of 1 or 2 slots for smite per encounter. Hence why I didn't include him here, but if you want to compare DPR or attacks vs spells I wanted to include him too.

Sorcadin of course can achieve same numbers but at much much higher resource cost and he needs to burn slots per attacks. Hence why I don't really like Sorcadins as their DPR is not really that good vs other builds. Not when it comes to damage but enconomy. Above combos use max 2 slots to achieve their DPR per multiple rounds. Sorcadins burn slots per each attack if they want smites.

But you can definitely exceed spells DPR with attacks as gish on tier 3 and 4. With right build.

[loki_ragnarock]

Valor or Sword bard in melee suck when it comes to damage. You need to splash Paladin 2 so at least you can smite (but then you eat tons of resources every fight and you are MAD. Bards don't have anything to support their melee. Even 1 Hexblade makes them only SAD but their melee damage is still bad. Hex is only 1d6 to 2 attacks and takes concetration which would be better for something likes Spirit Guardians or heavy CC. Curse is only vs one enemy, once per short rest.

You need to either go for Hand Crossbow + Crossbow Expert + Sharpshooter to make their damage on par/superior to something like Sorlock or Arcana Clerics or multiclass to Paladin 2, but then you are not SAD and if you got 2 Pala/1 Hex/17 Bard you are 3 levels behind ASI and spells.

Bards are awesome but I think they are not good melee gishes. Range gish or Eldricht Blast jack-of-all-trades - definitely. But not melee.

I don't disagree... well, I do disagree to a certain point. At will damage is sort of a problem for bards in general. But thanks to several spells that become available to them via magical secrets, they can actually fair pretty well with Tensor's Transformation, and the far better Holy Weapon.
You thought I was going to say Shadow Blade, I'm sure, which is also a solid option. The problem is that Shadow Blade precludes you from using it with your magic sword, and you can't be a Gish without your Silver Sword.

Further, a Valor bard isn't that far behind other things that rock the extra attack feature. They don't get alot to back it up in their chassis, but they still get access to feats; nothing stops a Valor bard from rocking out with Great Weapon Master to knock back some arpeggios on the great axe. And... that's all they'd need, basically, to have pretty effective damage output. No trio of feats required, and no MADder than a typical paladin, really.

But yeah, all it takes is a 2 level dip of paladin to suddenly become the character that's actually good at everything pretty quickly. Otherwise it's wait for 10 or take one or two feats to round out a little.
In a featless, multi-classless game, though, their about as tanky as you can make a primary arcane caster. Which isn't nothing.

[Sception]

I agree with the "9th level spells is not a gish, that's just a caster posing with a sword for aesthetics" sentiment. What is a high level cleric doing actually attacking with a mace? Ditto a single classed bladesinger. Sure they could jump through a bunch of hoops to kinda sorta do reasonable melee damage, but, like, why even? Once a wizard can cast force cage shouldn't the entire concept of dealing hit point damage be kind of beneath them?

Regardless, my favorite gishes are arcane trickster / bladesingers and sorcadins.

[Benny89]

I agree with the "9th level spells is not a gish, that's just a caster posing with a sword for aesthetics" sentiment. What is a high level cleric doing actually attacking with a mace? Ditto a single classed bladesinger. Sure they could jump through a bunch of hoops to kinda sorta do reasonable melee damage, but, like, why even? Once a wizard can cast force cage shouldn't the entire concept of dealing hit point damage be kind of beneath them?

Regardless, my favorite gishes are arcane trickster / bladesingers and sorcadins.

Because slots end at some point and high level spells - while powerful are not something you can cast every encounter. At will damage without wasting resources or spending minimum resources is what Gish is all about. While having high level spells in their sleeves for they are needed. The point of gish is that you are much more resource safe than pure caster, because you will deal with most of the things using melee + some supporting spell instead of blasting everything. What Gish with full slot progression give you is that you don't have to worry about wasting resources any more. Even with only couple of 3 level slots left after full day in Tier 4 you still have strong at will damage in melee (or range), which still makes you strong and dangerous. What is wizard without his spell slots? Nothing. What is good gish without slots? Still capable fighter.

Hence why if I can get 168 DPR without using 7,8,9 slot for multiple rounds- hell yeah I will take that trade. Then when I need to I can drop that Force Cage/Meteor Shower etc.

The point of good gish is not have any weak points or at least minimize it:

1. High level spells caster - check
3. Good/Great melee damage (or range if we would talk about both range and melee here) - check
4. High AC - check
5. High defense via spells - check.

That's what good gish is to me.

[paladinn]

I think the 9th level spell requirement kind of shoots this concept down. "Ultimate gish" can lead to a lot of different builds that don't quite end up with 9th level spells, but can still totally kick butt.

My fav: a sorlocadin. 5-6 levels of paladin (I prefer Vengeance), 3 levels of hexblade, shaken, not stirred. Finish off with sorcerer (I go with Divine Soul). Great front-liner, healing when needed, the best at-will attack in the game, and tons of spell slots for casting Or smiting. Totally min-maxed, but I had So much fun with that guy!

[Mr Adventurer]

I see lots of people advocating a Warlock dip on a caster and saying Armour of Agathys gives you loads of hit points. But isn't it locked at level 1 if you don't stick with Warlock levels?

[Chronos]

Only if you cast it with your warlock slots. A wizard 17/warlock 1 can cast a 9th-level Armor of Agathys using their wizard slots (if they really want to, and have nothing better to do with their 9th-level slot). Meanwhile, they can use their warlock slots for something like Shield.

[Skylivedk]

I see lots of people advocating a Warlock dip on a caster and saying Armour of Agathys gives you loads of hit points. But isn't it locked at level 1 if you don't stick with Warlock levels?

Nope. You can use your Warlock spells with your other spellslots and AoA has arguably the best scaling in the game, hence why it's extra good on builds where you have spell slots, but no spells known (ie Sorcadin, Bardadin).

Cheers

[ravenkith]

In order to comply with the demand for 9th level spells.....

I'd have to go with Paladin 2/Warlock (Hexblade) 1/Bard (Swords) 17 as the best combo.

Progression would be:
Variant Human - Sentinel, Perception Skill, Undercommon Language
For Skills, at first level you pick up Athletics and Intimidation, take the mercenary veteran background, picking up Persuasion, Animal Handling, Land Vehicles, Cards, and the mercenary life feature.

1st - Paladin 1 - All armor, All weapons, Shields, Max D10 HD, Lay on Hands
2nd - Warlock (Hexblade) 1 - Charisma for attack and damage, Hexblade's Curse, Warlock spells & Bonus slots (Booming Blade, Eldritch Blast, Shield and Hex).
3rd - Paladin 2 - Defensive fighting style, Paladin Spells (Cure light wounds, Thunderous Smite), Divine Smite
4th - Bard 1 - Bardic Inspiration, Bardic Spells, Proficiency in the Lyre and Performance
5th - Bard 2 - Jack of all trades
6th - Bard 3 - melee weapons as as spell foci, Two weapon Fighting style, Blade Flourish, Expertise x2 (Perception, 1 other)
7th - Bard 4 - Dual Wielding
8th - Bard 5
9th - Bard 6 - Extra Attack
10th - Bard 7
11th - Bard 8 - ASI - Probably Warcaster
12th - Bard 9
13th - Bard 10 - Magical Secrets (Counterspell and Haste), Expertise x2
14th - Bard 11
15th - Bard 12 - ASI
16th - Bard 13
17th - Bard 14 - Master's Flourish Unlimited d6 flourishes, Magical Secrets
18th - Bard 15
19th - Bard 16 - ASI
20th - Bard 17

With this build, the first thing you have to do is a perception shift so that you view a) attacks as a means to deliver divine smites and b) spell slots as primarily smite fuel, with back-up utility value.

That means that you likely want to get as MANY attacks as possible, which is why we are adding two-weapon fighting as a focus to the build, why we are adding sentinel as a means to get more reaction attacks, and why we used a magical secret on the haste spell.

At early levels, Booming Blade will be used to help offset the delayed appearance of our extra attack, and Eldritch Blast will be used in combination with our Hex and Hexblade's Curse to mitigate any ranged issues we might face, but make no mistake, this build is meant to get up in people's faces and stab them as much and as hard as you can.

With the two weapon fighting style and duel wielding in place, we can reasonably expect to get off three attacks a round by level 9, using our bonus action for the third. Each of these is eligible for smite damage being added on top, and our Hexblade's curse can be expected to stack as well, potentially giving us our proficiency mod to damage, as well as increasing our chance to crit. Once we get Haste at level 13, the build is now making 4 attacks a round, each of which can be smites fueled by our spell slots.

In addition, with the sentinel feat and dual wielder in play by level 7, consider pairing a whip with a longsword as your weapon choices. The enhanced reach of the whip will pair well with the shorter reach of the longsword, meaning that if anyone tries to move away from you either in base to base contact or from 5 ft away, you SHOULD be entitled to an opportunity attack, rules as written. This will help make your character more sticky, as any opportunity attack you get will set the speed of the opponent to zero, and is, of course, another opportunity for a smite.

Of course, sentinel also lets you use your reaction to make an attack if your opponent attacks someone else within 5 feet of you. Odds are, between the two features, you'll likely be using your reaction to get a 5th attack in as well.

Of course, if you're opponent stays put and attacks you directly, this is where the 5 1st level slots you're going to have from level 3ish will help, letting you use your reaction to fire off a shield spell instead of getting an additional attack, if needed.

Damage enhancement options are pretty plentiful, what with divine smite being an option on pretty much any melee attack, hex being a potentially useful application of a 1st level spell slot if you aren't in a situation that quite calls for you to pop haste, and hexblade's curse and your flourish options also needing to factor in. Keep in mind, at 17th level you basically get unlimited d6 flourishes, which means that there is no reason for you to be doing just base damage anymore. Finally, if you want to create force multipliers, you could slant the build to include the spells animate dead and animate objects on the same build, then prepare something like crusader's mantle to magnify the damage dealt. There's a lot of options (shrug).

Of course, as others have pointed out, the requirement of still having 9th level spells in the build is actually pretty limiting, but whatever.

Note that a key feature of this build is that you are making CHA your primary attribute. You will likely need a 15 in str to use heavy armor, but Dexterity becomes relatively optional, as you aren't using it for AC or ranged attacks. In an ideal world, without the need to maintain 9th level spell access, taking 6 levels of paladin to get extra attack and cha to saves would make dex thoroughly redundant. You would likely still want a 15 str to properly use heavy armor, however, but you wouldn't need to go any higher than that, and instead could pretty much focus on CHA.

[Benny89]

I think the 9th level spell requirement kind of shoots this concept down. "Ultimate gish" can lead to a lot of different builds that don't quite end up with 9th level spells, but can still totally kick butt.

My fav: a sorlocadin. 5-6 levels of paladin (I prefer Vengeance), 3 levels of hexblade, shaken, not stirred. Finish off with sorcerer (I go with Divine Soul). Great front-liner, healing when needed, the best at-will attack in the game, and tons of spell slots for casting Or smiting. Totally min-maxed, but I had So much fun with that guy!

That build loses tons of ASI progression and your slots number are very low until like... 12 level? Combining Smites are good at will - damage, but your DPR outside of buring smites is very low. Playing this one from level 1 would be quite painful in my opinion (I played calssic 6/14 Sorcadin from level 1 to 20 and I think it's one of the most overrated builds).

[Mr Adventurer]

Only if you cast it with your warlock slots. A wizard 17/warlock 1 can cast a 9th-level Armor of Agathys using their wizard slots (if they really want to, and have nothing better to do with their 9th-level slot). Meanwhile, they can use their warlock slots for something like Shield.


Nope. You can use your Warlock spells with your other spellslots and AoA has arguably the best scaling in the game, hence why it's extra good on builds where you have spell slots, but no spells known (ie Sorcadin, Bardadin).

Cheers
Huh, I thought Warlock spells known were locked to Warlock spellcasting. The more you know!

[Benny89]

In order to comply with the demand for 9th level spells.....

I'd have to go with Paladin 2/Warlock (Hexblade) 1/Bard (Swords) 17 as the best combo.

Progression would be:
Variant Human - Sentinel, Perception Skill, Undercommon Language
For Skills, at first level you pick up Athletics and Intimidation, take the mercenary veteran background, picking up Persuasion, Animal Handling, Land Vehicles, Cards, and the mercenary life feature.

1st - Paladin 1 - All armor, All weapons, Shields, Max D10 HD, Lay on Hands
2nd - Warlock (Hexblade) 1 - Charisma for attack and damage, Hexblade's Curse, Warlock spells & Bonus slots (Booming Blade, Eldritch Blast, Shield and Hex).
3rd - Paladin 2 - Defensive fighting style, Paladin Spells (Cure light wounds, Thunderous Smite), Divine Smite
4th - Bard 1 - Bardic Inspiration, Bardic Spells, Proficiency in the Lyre and Performance
5th - Bard 2 - Jack of all trades
6th - Bard 3 - melee weapons as as spell foci, Two weapon Fighting style, Blade Flourish, Expertise x2 (Perception, 1 other)
7th - Bard 4 - Dual Wielding
8th - Bard 5
9th - Bard 6 - Extra Attack
10th - Bard 7
11th - Bard 8 - ASI - Probably Warcaster
12th - Bard 9
13th - Bard 10 - Magical Secrets (Counterspell and Haste), Expertise x2
14th - Bard 11
15th - Bard 12 - ASI
16th - Bard 13
17th - Bard 14 - Master's Flourish Unlimited d6 flourishes, Magical Secrets
18th - Bard 15
19th - Bard 16 - ASI
20th - Bard 17

With this build, the first thing you have to do is a perception shift so that you view a) attacks as a means to deliver divine smites and b) spell slots as primarily smite fuel, with back-up utility value.

That means that you likely want to get as MANY attacks as possible, which is why we are adding two-weapon fighting as a focus to the build, why we are adding sentinel as a means to get more reaction attacks, and why we used a magical secret on the haste spell.

At early levels, Booming Blade will be used to help offset the delayed appearance of our extra attack, and Eldritch Blast will be used in combination with our Hex and Hexblade's Curse to mitigate any ranged issues we might face, but make no mistake, this build is meant to get up in people's faces and stab them as much and as hard as you can.

With the two weapon fighting style and duel wielding in place, we can reasonably expect to get off three attacks a round by level 9, using our bonus action for the third. Each of these is eligible for smite damage being added on top, and our Hexblade's curse can be expected to stack as well, potentially giving us our proficiency mod to damage, as well as increasing our chance to crit. Once we get Haste at level 13, the build is now making 4 attacks a round, each of which can be smites fueled by our spell slots.

In addition, with the sentinel feat and dual wielder in play by level 7, consider pairing a whip with a longsword as your weapon choices. The enhanced reach of the whip will pair well with the shorter reach of the longsword, meaning that if anyone tries to move away from you either in base to base contact or from 5 ft away, you SHOULD be entitled to an opportunity attack, rules as written. This will help make your character more sticky, as any opportunity attack you get will set the speed of the opponent to zero, and is, of course, another opportunity for a smite.

Of course, sentinel also lets you use your reaction to make an attack if your opponent attacks someone else within 5 feet of you. Odds are, between the two features, you'll likely be using your reaction to get a 5th attack in as well.

Of course, if you're opponent stays put and attacks you directly, this is where the 5 1st level slots you're going to have from level 3ish will help, letting you use your reaction to fire off a shield spell instead of getting an additional attack, if needed.

Damage enhancement options are pretty plentiful, what with divine smite being an option on pretty much any melee attack, hex being a potentially useful application of a 1st level spell slot if you aren't in a situation that quite calls for you to pop haste, and hexblade's curse and your flourish options also needing to factor in. Keep in mind, at 17th level you basically get unlimited d6 flourishes, which means that there is no reason for you to be doing just base damage anymore. Finally, if you want to create force multipliers, you could slant the build to include the spells animate dead and animate objects on the same build, then prepare something like crusader's mantle to magnify the damage dealt. There's a lot of options (shrug).

Of course, as others have pointed out, the requirement of still having 9th level spells in the build is actually pretty limiting, but whatever.

Note that a key feature of this build is that you are making CHA your primary attribute. You will likely need a 15 in str to use heavy armor, but Dexterity becomes relatively optional, as you aren't using it for AC or ranged attacks. In an ideal world, without the need to maintain 9th level spell access, taking 6 levels of paladin to get extra attack and cha to saves would make dex thoroughly redundant. You would likely still want a 15 str to properly use heavy armor, however, but you wouldn't need to go any higher than that, and instead could pretty much focus on CHA.

This is exactly how I would build Sword bard for him to be able to do anthing in melee in Tier 3 or 4. The problem with two-weapon fighting is that if you are not burning slots for smites- your DPR is rather poor outside of that. I would actually change haste to Spirit Guardians to be more resource-friendly. With Haste and 4 attacks per turn you would burn half your slots in 2 rounds if you would like to deal good melee DPR.

Still, I agree this is probably the only way to make Sword bard deal great melee damage.

Other one would be 1 hexblade/19 Sword Bard using Shadow Blade. However, that eliminates all conentration spells (so majority of Bard list) from any combat. We would also need to invest heavy in non-concentration spells like MMM, Crown of Stars, Spiritual Weapon etc. And that we don't get Shadow Blade till level 11... which is again not optimap.

So yeah, your build is best imo for Sword Bard if someone wants to stay viable in melee on tier 3 and 4.

[Ashrym]

In order to comply with the demand for 9th level spells.....

I'd have to go with Paladin 2/Warlock (Hexblade) 1/Bard (Swords) 17 as the best combo.

Progression would be:
Variant Human - Sentinel, Perception Skill, Undercommon Language
For Skills, at first level you pick up Athletics and Intimidation, take the mercenary veteran background, picking up Persuasion, Animal Handling, Land Vehicles, Cards, and the mercenary life feature.

1st - Paladin 1 - All armor, All weapons, Shields, Max D10 HD, Lay on Hands
2nd - Warlock (Hexblade) 1 - Charisma for attack and damage, Hexblade's Curse, Warlock spells & Bonus slots (Booming Blade, Eldritch Blast, Shield and Hex).
3rd - Paladin 2 - Defensive fighting style, Paladin Spells (Cure light wounds, Thunderous Smite), Divine Smite
4th - Bard 1 - Bardic Inspiration, Bardic Spells, Proficiency in the Lyre and Performance
5th - Bard 2 - Jack of all trades
6th - Bard 3 - melee weapons as as spell foci, Two weapon Fighting style, Blade Flourish, Expertise x2 (Perception, 1 other)
7th - Bard 4 - Dual Wielding
8th - Bard 5
9th - Bard 6 - Extra Attack
10th - Bard 7
11th - Bard 8 - ASI - Probably Warcaster
12th - Bard 9
13th - Bard 10 - Magical Secrets (Counterspell and Haste), Expertise x2
14th - Bard 11
15th - Bard 12 - ASI
16th - Bard 13
17th - Bard 14 - Master's Flourish Unlimited d6 flourishes, Magical Secrets
18th - Bard 15
19th - Bard 16 - ASI
20th - Bard 17

With this build, the first thing you have to do is a perception shift so that you view a) attacks as a means to deliver divine smites and b) spell slots as primarily smite fuel, with back-up utility value.

That means that you likely want to get as MANY attacks as possible, which is why we are adding two-weapon fighting as a focus to the build, why we are adding sentinel as a means to get more reaction attacks, and why we used a magical secret on the haste spell.

At early levels, Booming Blade will be used to help offset the delayed appearance of our extra attack, and Eldritch Blast will be used in combination with our Hex and Hexblade's Curse to mitigate any ranged issues we might face, but make no mistake, this build is meant to get up in people's faces and stab them as much and as hard as you can.

With the two weapon fighting style and duel wielding in place, we can reasonably expect to get off three attacks a round by level 9, using our bonus action for the third. Each of these is eligible for smite damage being added on top, and our Hexblade's curse can be expected to stack as well, potentially giving us our proficiency mod to damage, as well as increasing our chance to crit. Once we get Haste at level 13, the build is now making 4 attacks a round, each of which can be smites fueled by our spell slots.

In addition, with the sentinel feat and dual wielder in play by level 7, consider pairing a whip with a longsword as your weapon choices. The enhanced reach of the whip will pair well with the shorter reach of the longsword, meaning that if anyone tries to move away from you either in base to base contact or from 5 ft away, you SHOULD be entitled to an opportunity attack, rules as written. This will help make your character more sticky, as any opportunity attack you get will set the speed of the opponent to zero, and is, of course, another opportunity for a smite.

Of course, sentinel also lets you use your reaction to make an attack if your opponent attacks someone else within 5 feet of you. Odds are, between the two features, you'll likely be using your reaction to get a 5th attack in as well.

Of course, if you're opponent stays put and attacks you directly, this is where the 5 1st level slots you're going to have from level 3ish will help, letting you use your reaction to fire off a shield spell instead of getting an additional attack, if needed.

Damage enhancement options are pretty plentiful, what with divine smite being an option on pretty much any melee attack, hex being a potentially useful application of a 1st level spell slot if you aren't in a situation that quite calls for you to pop haste, and hexblade's curse and your flourish options also needing to factor in. Keep in mind, at 17th level you basically get unlimited d6 flourishes, which means that there is no reason for you to be doing just base damage anymore. Finally, if you want to create force multipliers, you could slant the build to include the spells animate dead and animate objects on the same build, then prepare something like crusader's mantle to magnify the damage dealt. There's a lot of options (shrug).

Of course, as others have pointed out, the requirement of still having 9th level spells in the build is actually pretty limiting, but whatever.

Note that a key feature of this build is that you are making CHA your primary attribute. You will likely need a 15 in str to use heavy armor, but Dexterity becomes relatively optional, as you aren't using it for AC or ranged attacks. In an ideal world, without the need to maintain 9th level spell access, taking 6 levels of paladin to get extra attack and cha to saves would make dex thoroughly redundant. You would likely still want a 15 str to properly use heavy armor, however, but you wouldn't need to go any higher than that, and instead could pretty much focus on CHA.

CHA isn't any different from 1st through 14th level. Any build starting with 16 DEX or 16 STR and 16 CHA wouldn't need hexblade that early. Some STR investment is necessary for the armor, but were you keeping both DEX and STR to a minimum?

[RSP]

I’d go Bladesinger. Melee damage is mediocre, but their overall defense is fantastic. A gish needs to be able to survive attacks and BS does this very well.

Side note: AoA is an okay spell, not great. It’s probably better on a multiclass Warlock than a straight Warlock, as Warlocks tend to have better uses of their max spell slots. The tHPs scaling essentially lets you eat a hit, maybe two, but nothing at all guarantees that damage comes from a melee Attack to get the retribution damage.

It’s certainly better than False Life, but not a great spell.

[ravenkith]

CHA isn't any different from 1st through 14th level. Any build starting with 16 DEX or 16 STR and 16 CHA wouldn't need hexblade that early. Some STR investment is necessary for the armor, but were you keeping both DEX and STR to a minimum?

With this build, you would start with a point buy of 14 STR, 12 Dex, 14 Con, 8 Int, 8 Wis, 15 Cha

Variant Human lets you add + 1 to 2 different stats, in this case, STR and CHA.

This yields an opening stat line of 15 STR, 12 Dex, 14 Con, 8 INT, 8 Wis, 16 CHA.

The only reason why we're going with strength 15 here is to eventually wear full plate, really. The fact is, however, that you can easily never put another point in strength for the rest of your career.

Neither Sentinel, nor Dual Wielder give any stat bumps. Technically, you could do away with dual wielder, and just make due with short swords, I suppose, but I like the feat,as it adds to both offense (2 pts of average DPR) and defense (+1 ac while dual wielding).

At level 11 you face your first real choice. You can either go Warcaster for your ASI here, or dump points into Charisma. Likewise at level 15.
Both of these decisions are going to depend on how your concentration rolls are working out, and how your saves/attacks are coming. It's going to be a judgement call, based on the nature of whatever campaign you are in. Most likely, you'll dump into charisma, as it will add to both your to hit, and your damage, as well as your spell saves, but keeping the extra attack and your other bonuses from haste going may well be more appealing, especially when connected with the ability to fire off spells as an OA, and depending on whether or not your DM is being a stickler for the somatic rules or not (shrug).

Of course, it's not JUST about the charisma mod adding to-hit rolls and damage - you are also getting eldritch blast, booming blade, the shield spell, the hex spell, hexblade's curse, and two extra 1st level spell slots to run all of that off, as well as your smites, when you pick 'em up, at 3rd level. None of these are on the bard spell list.

Eldritch blast is a big deal, in that it gives you a ranged damage attack that can hit out to 120 feet, that is based off of charisma. This cantrip, combined with the heavy armor from paladin, is what allows you to de-emphasize dexterity. Note that Hex warrior does NOT work with 2 handed weapons, meaning that the GOOD ranged weapons just don't work with it unless you take pact of the blade. With the cantrip and the armor, the only thing you need dex for is saves (which is the only reason it has a +1).

Booming blade is a big deal, because it allows you to replace your single melee attack with a magically enhance melee attack. Booming blade is in here because Bard already has a delayed attack progression, and you won't get really effective at fighting with two weapons until level 6 or so. I can easily see situations at levels lower than that where you might prefer to rock a sword and board style, especially since you don't have a lot of slots at low levels to go burning up on smites. BB lets you do that and not overly lose out on damage potential as compared to those who get their extra attacks at level 5, as it adds bonus damage, and can be used to make you stickier than Sentinel alone will allow.

Both of these cantrips scale as you level, meaning at 5th level they become more worthwhile and help make up the damage gap from having to wait for your extra attack.

Shield is a big deal, because you can use a reaction to save your ass from death at low levels with it (lol). That +5 to AC for a round can be a very, very nice thing to have, especially if you are going to move away from S&B.

Hex is a big deal because it goes really, really, well with both melee and ranged attack rolls and the more of them you have, the better the spell gets. Hex's ability to add a d6 damage to every damage roll plays nice with the up to 5 attacks you get from EB as you level and the up to 3-4 melee attacks you can get. Combining EB with war caster and your opportunity attacks means that a spell like hex can give you 3d6 on melee attacks in a round and up to 5d6 additional damage on the ranged attacks from a single OA-triggered EB (thats up to 5d10+5d6, with up to 5x proficiency bonus damage if target is under Hexblade's curse). All for the cost of a 1st level spell. It's a super-efficient use of your limited slots.

Truthfully, looking back at it, I could see myself going Warcaster at 7th level, instead of dual wielding, and Crossbow expert at 11th, or possibly vice versa. It could be sick.

[Deathtongue]

(I played calssic 6/14 Sorcadin from level 1 to 20 and I think it's one of the most overrated builds).Oh? I've played a 6/14 Sorcadin from level 1 to 16 and I think that it's one of the strongest builds in the game. You get access to crushing defensive options that are the envy of defensive hardcases like the Bladesinger and Bear Totem Barbarian while still having top-tier damage. Levels 1, 8, and 9 are a bit of a slog but it's nothing but upside outside of those levels.

[EdenIndustries]

I don't think Hexblade really works with two weapon fighting:

At 1st level, you acquire the training necessary to effectively arm yourself for battle. You gain proficiency with medium armor, shields, and martial weapons.

The influence of your patron also allows you to mystically channel your will through a particular weapon. Whenever you finish a long rest, you can touch one weapon that you are proficient with and that lacks the two-handed property. When you attack with that weapon, you can use your Charisma modifier, instead of Strength or Dexterity, for the attack and damage rolls. This benefit lasts until you finish a long rest. If you later gain the Pact of the Blade feature, this benefit extends to every pact weapon you conjure with that feature, no matter the weapon's type.

So you only get Cha to attack for one weapon, not both. Am I missing something?

[ravenkith]

I don't think Hexblade really works with two weapon fighting:

At 1st level, you acquire the training necessary to effectively arm yourself for battle. You gain proficiency with medium armor, shields, and martial weapons.

The influence of your patron also allows you to mystically channel your will through a particular weapon. Whenever you finish a long rest, you can touch one weapon that you are proficient with and that lacks the two-handed property. When you attack with that weapon, you can use your Charisma modifier, instead of Strength or Dexterity, for the attack and damage rolls. This benefit lasts until you finish a long rest. If you later gain the Pact of the Blade feature, this benefit extends to every pact weapon you conjure with that feature, no matter the weapon's type.

So you only get Cha to attack for one weapon, not both. Am I missing something?

Sure, use a staff.

[EdenIndustries]

Sure, use a staff.

Sorry you may have to pardon my ignorance here. How does using a staff help? If doing two weapon fighting and if only one weapon can use Cha to attack, the other is stuck using Str or Dex, no? Which is the situation you're trying to avoid isn't it?

[Benny89]

Oh? I've played a 6/14 Sorcadin from level 1 to 16 and I think that it's one of the strongest builds in the game. You get access to crushing defensive options that are the envy of defensive hardcases like the Bladesinger and Bear Totem Barbarian while still having top-tier damage. Levels 1, 8, and 9 are a bit of a slog but it's nothing but upside outside of those levels.

You are saying that from perspective or "when you get there". When I was 6/5 Sorcadin (so the moment when you are fully online) I had 4, 3, 3, 2 slots. That is total of 12 slots. Let's say the during whole encounter (and let's say you have less than normal so 4 per day) you want to smite 2 times + probably you want some Haste or some Spirit Guardians or some Spiritual Weapon. That is ton's of resources for very temporary damage boost.

Of course you can go GWM Sorcadin, but then your ASI is quite low too. Lets start with Vuman to maximize it. Level 1 you will take RES (CON) or Warcaster or start as Sorc and lose Heavy Armor. Choice is individual. Anyway you need some Conc boost. Let's say you started as Sorc (to maximize ASI efficiency). So we start with PAM (more optimal than GWM at those levels). Level 6 we multiclass, so no ASI at level 8. Next ASI is level 10. GWM. Now we have PAM + GWM, but we are only 16 CHA and 16 STR at this point... We can boost that by being Devotion Pally however. Still we have low attributes. Another rout is of course 1 handed + shield. So start with Warcaster/Lucky etc., +2 CHA level 8, +2 CHA level 14. Finally 20 CHA. Still 16 STR though. And resource hungry.

See, the problem with 6/14 Sorcadin is just he is "strongest" only is his favourite scenario -> Big Boss fight. Vow of Enmity/Sacred Weapon, Haste and Smite, smite, smite, burning all resources. But he is really really medicore in encounter to encounter. Sure, he has Spirit Guardians for example but so would pure Arcana Cleric. And Arcana Cleric would dish out better non-smite damage around and have level 6 spells when Sorcadin has only level 3.

His "top tier damage" is only on paper in scenario when you smite on every attack. But that eats resources fast, which leads to conserving them, which leads to lower sustainable damage per advanturing day than other builds.

I am not sying it's not strong build. It is, for what he is best at. But overall, I think it's very overrated build if you plan to play it from level 1 to level 20. It's painful to level up. And while his Nova is impressive, you can achieve simillar numbers with even almost pure Hexblade while keeping much higher and more sustainable DPR over the whole adventuring day.

But it's not strongest by any stretch. After playing one I strongly feel that 2/18 Sorcadin would be much stronger OVER THE COURSE of 1-20 level due to fact that he loses only one attack but gets much more spells and slots much faster, allowing him to be way more flexible and way more spammable when it comes to spell slots.

That is of course only my opinion, but from experience.

[ravenkith]

Sorry you may have to pardon my ignorance here. How does using a staff help? If doing two weapon fighting and if only one weapon can use Cha to attack, the other is stuck using Str or Dex, no? Which is the situation you're trying to avoid isn't it?

Goddamn 3.5 rules getting in my head again.

Sorry, I guess I meant double-bladed scimitar (https://www.dndbeyond.com/equipment/double-bladed-scimitar).

Man, I'm getting old.

As an aside, there is not that big of a deal in making one of your three/four/eight attacks at a +2 to hit instead of a whatever your charisma mod is at whatever level.

3.5, every attack roll had a different bonus (shrug).

You're basically crit fishing with this build.

To be clear, the original build concept had three levels of warlock and pact of the blade feature, which technically allows you to have both a melee weapon that you designate as your pact weapon and the ability to have a summoned pact weapon, rules as written, but when I had to edit the build to put 9th level spells back in, the pact of the blade feature hit the cutting room floor (lol)

[RSP]

I don't think Hexblade really works with two weapon fighting:

At 1st level, you acquire the training necessary to effectively arm yourself for battle. You gain proficiency with medium armor, shields, and martial weapons.

The influence of your patron also allows you to mystically channel your will through a particular weapon. Whenever you finish a long rest, you can touch one weapon that you are proficient with and that lacks the two-handed property. When you attack with that weapon, you can use your Charisma modifier, instead of Strength or Dexterity, for the attack and damage rolls. This benefit lasts until you finish a long rest. If you later gain the Pact of the Blade feature, this benefit extends to every pact weapon you conjure with that feature, no matter the weapon's type.

So you only get Cha to attack for one weapon, not both. Am I missing something?

Two if going Pact of Blade, but only one if not.

[col_impact]

Wizardin by a mile.

[Evaar]

Two if going Pact of Blade, but only one if not.

To expand this since it wasn't obvious to me at a glance - you can touch one weapon at the end of a long rest to get this bonus via Hexblade, and then also summon a different weapon with your Pact of the Blade that also gets that benefit.

[Skylivedk]

In order to comply with the demand for 9th level spells.....

I'd have to go with Paladin 2/Warlock (Hexblade) 1/Bard (Swords) 17 as the best combo.

Progression would be:
Variant Human - Sentinel, Perception Skill, Undercommon Language
For Skills, at first level you pick up Athletics and Intimidation, take the mercenary veteran background, picking up Persuasion, Animal Handling, Land Vehicles, Cards, and the mercenary life feature.

1st - Paladin 1 - All armor, All weapons, Shields, Max D10 HD, Lay on Hands
2nd - Warlock (Hexblade) 1 - Charisma for attack and damage, Hexblade's Curse, Warlock spells & Bonus slots (Booming Blade, Eldritch Blast, Shield and Hex).
3rd - Paladin 2 - Defensive fighting style, Paladin Spells (Cure light wounds, Thunderous Smite), Divine Smite
4th - Bard 1 - Bardic Inspiration, Bardic Spells, Proficiency in the Lyre and Performance
5th - Bard 2 - Jack of all trades
6th - Bard 3 - melee weapons as as spell foci, Two weapon Fighting style, Blade Flourish, Expertise x2 (Perception, 1 other)
7th - Bard 4 - Dual Wielding
8th - Bard 5
9th - Bard 6 - Extra Attack
10th - Bard 7
11th - Bard 8 - ASI - Probably Warcaster
12th - Bard 9
13th - Bard 10 - Magical Secrets (Counterspell and Haste), Expertise x2
14th - Bard 11
15th - Bard 12 - ASI
16th - Bard 13
17th - Bard 14 - Master's Flourish Unlimited d6 flourishes, Magical Secrets
18th - Bard 15
19th - Bard 16 - ASI
20th - Bard 17

With this build, the first thing you have to do is a perception shift so that you view a) attacks as a means to deliver divine smites and b) spell slots as primarily smite fuel, with back-up utility value.

That means that you likely want to get as MANY attacks as possible, which is why we are adding two-weapon fighting as a focus to the build, why we are adding sentinel as a means to get more reaction attacks, and why we used a magical secret on the haste spell.

At early levels, Booming Blade will be used to help offset the delayed appearance of our extra attack, and Eldritch Blast will be used in combination with our Hex and Hexblade's Curse to mitigate any ranged issues we might face, but make no mistake, this build is meant to get up in people's faces and stab them as much and as hard as you can.

With the two weapon fighting style and duel wielding in place, we can reasonably expect to get off three attacks a round by level 9, using our bonus action for the third. Each of these is eligible for smite damage being added on top, and our Hexblade's curse can be expected to stack as well, potentially giving us our proficiency mod to damage, as well as increasing our chance to crit. Once we get Haste at level 13, the build is now making 4 attacks a round, each of which can be smites fueled by our spell slots.

In addition, with the sentinel feat and dual wielder in play by level 7, consider pairing a whip with a longsword as your weapon choices. The enhanced reach of the whip will pair well with the shorter reach of the longsword, meaning that if anyone tries to move away from you either in base to base contact or from 5 ft away, you SHOULD be entitled to an opportunity attack, rules as written. This will help make your character more sticky, as any opportunity attack you get will set the speed of the opponent to zero, and is, of course, another opportunity for a smite.

Of course, sentinel also lets you use your reaction to make an attack if your opponent attacks someone else within 5 feet of you. Odds are, between the two features, you'll likely be using your reaction to get a 5th attack in as well.

Of course, if you're opponent stays put and attacks you directly, this is where the 5 1st level slots you're going to have from level 3ish will help, letting you use your reaction to fire off a shield spell instead of getting an additional attack, if needed.

Damage enhancement options are pretty plentiful, what with divine smite being an option on pretty much any melee attack, hex being a potentially useful application of a 1st level spell slot if you aren't in a situation that quite calls for you to pop haste, and hexblade's curse and your flourish options also needing to factor in. Keep in mind, at 17th level you basically get unlimited d6 flourishes, which means that there is no reason for you to be doing just base damage anymore. Finally, if you want to create force multipliers, you could slant the build to include the spells animate dead and animate objects on the same build, then prepare something like crusader's mantle to magnify the damage dealt. There's a lot of options (shrug).

Of course, as others have pointed out, the requirement of still having 9th level spells in the build is actually pretty limiting, but whatever.

Note that a key feature of this build is that you are making CHA your primary attribute. You will likely need a 15 in str to use heavy armor, but Dexterity becomes relatively optional, as you aren't using it for AC or ranged attacks. In an ideal world, without the need to maintain 9th level spell access, taking 6 levels of paladin to get extra attack and cha to saves would make dex thoroughly redundant. You would likely still want a 15 str to properly use heavy armor, however, but you wouldn't need to go any higher than that, and instead could pretty much focus on CHA.

Why not just use a spear and pick up the damage from dueling and PAM? I mean, if we are optimising...

Btw are you sure of that reach interaction?


I’d go Bladesinger. Melee damage is mediocre, but their overall defense is fantastic. A gish needs to be able to survive attacks and BS does this very well.

Side note: AoA is an okay spell, not great. It’s probably better on a multiclass Warlock than a straight Warlock, as Warlocks tend to have better uses of their max spell slots. The tHPs scaling essentially lets you eat a hit, maybe two, but nothing at all guarantees that damage comes from a melee Attack to get the retribution damage.

It’s certainly better than False Life, but not a great spell.

I would call it way better than ok. Especially if you pair it with resistance. From play experience, it has often been the highest damage dealing ability in my two campaigns going from Tomb of Annihilation to Rise of Tiamat. A lot of monsters get many attacks rather than a few big ones (ie dragons besides their breath weapon).

[Deathtongue]

You are saying that from perspective or "when you get there". When I was 6/5 Sorcadin (so the moment when you are fully online) I had 4, 3, 3, 2 slots. That is total of 12 slots. Let's say the during whole encounter (and let's say you have less than normal so 4 per day) you want to smite 2 times + probably you want some Haste or some Spirit Guardians or some Spiritual Weapon. That is ton's of resources for very temporary damage boost.

Of course you can go GWM Sorcadin, but then your ASI is quite low too. Lets start with Vuman to maximize it. Level 1 you will take RES (CON) or Warcaster or start as Sorc and lose Heavy Armor. Choice is individual. Anyway you need some Conc boost. Let's say you started as Sorc (to maximize ASI efficiency). So we start with PAM (more optimal than GWM at those levels). Level 6 we multiclass, so no ASI at level 8. Next ASI is level 10. GWM. Now we have PAM + GWM, but we are only 16 CHA and 16 STR at this point... We can boost that by being Devotion Pally however. Still we have low attributes. Another rout is of course 1 handed + shield. So start with Warcaster/Lucky etc., +2 CHA level 8, +2 CHA level 14. Finally 20 CHA. Still 16 STR though. And resource hungry.

What do you mean, when you get there? You play as a normal Paladin for 6 levels, which are the strongest 6 levels of any class in the game. You then pick up Shield (and maybe Absorb Elements) so your defense shoots through the roof. Only boring level is Pal 6 / Sor 2, which does put you slightly behind Paladin 8s with good level 7 features since that plus an ASI is worth slightly more than an extra level of spell progression and Shield. But then you pick up Misty Step, Blur, and Quicken Spell plus some other metamagic at level 3, then you gain 4 crucial Sorcery Points (and an ASI) so you can quicken twice per fight. Then you get level 3 spells like Haste and Counterspell and Fly and Bob's your uncle.

Aside from you picking up Polearm Master (which you shouldn't even if SCAG is banned, Quicken Spell is just too damn useful) I seriously don't know where your experience got derailed.

Here's how I did it.

I played the character (a Variant Human with starting feat Resilient: CON) in pre-Season 8 AL rules, so I was able to cheese an early Gauntlets of Ogre Power with a 13 STR and two 16s in CON and CHA, the rest 10s. If I wasn't playing AL, I'd have rolled with a 16 STR, 10 DEX, 14 CON, 8 INT, 10 WIS, 16 CHA. I went sword-and-board to start out, but at level 10 (Pal 6 / Sor 4) I switched to a two-handed weapon. Let me just say that I had a LOT of dropped swords, which was okay because I didn't get a one-handed +1 weapon until I was already a sorcerer.

I was playing AL rules, so I chose SCAG as my +1 book.
Level 4 ASI went into +2 CHA. I didn't have the advantage-on-demand or the magical items to make use of GMW nor was I fast enough on the draw (yet) to make Sacred Weapon a viable option.
Level 1 Sorcerer I grabbed Booming Blade, Fire Bolt, Shield, Expeditious Retreat. I was forced to go Wild Sorcerer due to the AL rules, otherwise I would've picked Divine Soul. And Absorb Elements in place of Expeditious Retreat.

Level 3 Sorcerer I grabbed Quicken Spell and Twin Spell. Between Shield, Protection from Evil and Good, and Blur I became pretty much unhittable.

Level 4 Sorcerer I grabbed GWM and Misty Step. I could use Sacred Weapon + Quickened Booming Blade + GWM for a huge, reasonable accurate hit on the first turn.

Level 5 Sorcerer I grabbed Haste. My typical opening gambit for challenging fights where I start in a favorable position was Sacred Weapon + Quickened Haste the first round, then I tear an enemy into shreds with 3 attacks + Quickened Booming Blade. I would've retrained Expeditious Retreat into Fly if I didn't have Winged Boots at the time.

Levels 6 - 10 of Sorcerer were easy street. Dimension Door, Counterspell, Stoneskin just made my character that much more unkillable while still having loads of damage. And of course another +2 to Charisma.

Note one big thing with this build is that I rarely ever used smites between levels 7 and 12 unless I had a critical hit or it was the climatic battle of the fight. All of my spells went towards defense, buffs, and mobility. The defensive style of play is something of a slog, which is why I say that Pal6/Sor1 and Pal6/Sor2 are the most boring levels of the build even though they gave me Shield and, for players not in AL, Absorb Elements.


After playing one I strongly feel that 2/18 Sorcadin would be much stronger OVER THE COURSE of 1-20 level due to fact that he loses only one attack but gets much more spells and slots much faster, allowing him to be way more flexible and way more spammable when it comes to spell slots.
2/18 Sorcadin is only viable if you're playing with the original UA Divine Soul. 'Loses only one attack' is way underselling the weakness of this build. Even if you're playing in the most favorable circumstances for this build (0-1 encounter workdays, no magical items) there are three issues that hamper the long-term viability of this build as a gish:
1) You gain spell slots much more slowly after level 9. Between levels 1 and 9, you gain 14 spell slots. Between levels 10 and 18, you gain FIVE. And they're high-level spell slots past the smite damage cap, so it'd doubtful you're using smites on them.
2) There aren't any good Sorceradin gish spells past level 4, even if you're playing Divine Soul. Holy Weapon is inferior to Haste (especially on a character that has a +9-+11 to CON saves), and Holy Aura comes way too late. Hero's Feast is genuinely good, though, along with being able to quicken a Heal. But your melee damage permanently suffers.
3) Because of 1, this means that your damage hits a brick wall at around level 12. You don't gain any more smiting slots and you don't have Extra Attack to juice your attacks. A Bladesinger will soon permanently outdamage you in melee with minimal investment. Yeah, you eventually get Wish to patch up all of your issues, but that's character level 19. No thanks.

And of course if you ARE playing in a game with magical items or extended workdays, the 2/18 is completely non-viable as a melee unit.

[Benny89]

What do you mean, when you get there? You play as a normal Paladin for 6 levels, which are the strongest 6 levels of any class in the game. You then pick up Shield (and maybe Absorb Elements) so your defense shoots through the roof. Only boring level is Pal 6 / Sor 2, which does put you slightly behind Paladin 8s with good level 7 features since that plus an ASI is worth slightly more than an extra level of spell progression and Shield. But then you pick up Misty Step, Blur, and Quicken Spell plus some other metamagic at level 3, then you gain 4 crucial Sorcery Points (and an ASI) so you can quicken twice per fight. Then you get level 3 spells like Haste and Counterspell and Fly and Bob's your uncle.

Aside from you picking up Polearm Master (which you shouldn't even if SCAG is banned, Quicken Spell is just too damn useful) I seriously don't know where your experience got derailed.

Here's how I did it.

I played the character (a Variant Human with starting feat Resilient: CON) in pre-Season 8 AL rules, so I was able to cheese an early Gauntlets of Ogre Power with a 13 STR and two 16s in CON and CHA, the rest 10s. If I wasn't playing AL, I'd have rolled with a 16 STR, 10 DEX, 14 CON, 8 INT, 10 WIS, 16 CHA. I went sword-and-board to start out, but at level 10 (Pal 6 / Sor 4) I switched to a two-handed weapon. Let me just say that I had a LOT of dropped swords, which was okay because I didn't get a one-handed +1 weapon until I was already a sorcerer.

I was playing AL rules, so I chose SCAG as my +1 book.
Level 4 ASI went into +2 CHA. I didn't have the advantage-on-demand or the magical items to make use of GMW nor was I fast enough on the draw (yet) to make Sacred Weapon a viable option.
Level 1 Sorcerer I grabbed Booming Blade, Fire Bolt, Shield, Expeditious Retreat. I was forced to go Wild Sorcerer due to the AL rules, otherwise I would've picked Divine Soul. And Absorb Elements in place of Expeditious Retreat.

Level 3 Sorcerer I grabbed Quicken Spell and Twin Spell. Between Shield, Protection from Evil and Good, and Blur I became pretty much unhittable.

Level 4 Sorcerer I grabbed GWM and Misty Step. I could use Sacred Weapon + Quickened Booming Blade + GWM for a huge, reasonable accurate hit on the first turn.

Level 5 Sorcerer I grabbed Haste. My typical opening gambit for challenging fights where I start in a favorable position was Sacred Weapon + Quickened Haste the first round, then I tear an enemy into shreds with 3 attacks + Quickened Booming Blade. I would've retrained Expeditious Retreat into Fly if I didn't have Winged Boots at the time.

Levels 6 - 10 of Sorcerer were easy street. Dimension Door, Counterspell, Stoneskin just made my character that much more unkillable while still having loads of damage. And of course another +2 to Charisma.

Note one big thing with this build is that I rarely ever used smites between levels 7 and 12 unless I had a critical hit or it was the climatic battle of the fight. All of my spells went towards defense, buffs, and mobility. The defensive style of play is something of a slog, which is why I say that Pal6/Sor1 and Pal6/Sor2 are the most boring levels of the build even though they gave me Shield and, for players not in AL, Absorb Elements.

Ok, I will have to break it down a little:

1. You can't "cheese" with Ogre Gautlets in normal game. It's up to DM what you will get and when. AL builds are totally different as you can choose your own magic items which trivialize a lot of problems.
2. AL adventerures day are different than normal adventures game
3. Paladin is not strongest class in first 6 levels. Also what do you mean by "strongest"? Damage? With their poor 6 slots at level 6? What you gonna smite with 6 slots? Four enemies in 2 encounters? Where is your damage? At level 6 Hexblade, Battlemaster, Barbarian, Tempest Cleric will all out damage you at first 6 levels. Hell, Level 6 Knowledge Cleric with Spirit Guardians and Spiritual Weapon will outdamage you during adventure day.
4. "Only boring level is Pal 6 / Sor 2" - mate, that is like 40% of your 1-20 level progression. Aside from being tanky with Aura + Shield (a lot of slots to use that Shield...) + Absorb Elements you have nothing vs 8 level Hexblade, Arcane Cleric and couple other builds.
5. "unhittable", "unkillable" - ok, but where is that sustain damage? What is DPR of this build? Because all I see here is "tank" build, which is fine. Sorcadin is pretty much unkillable but what else? What does he offer as gish at this point? You have level 3 spells at level 11. Meanwhile others are rocking level level 6 spells and tons of slots to burn. Hell, Paladin 2/Sword Bard 9 at this poit has more smites than you do and also can have AC through the roof. You are gish that has no spell at reasonable level till level 11, not sustain damage. What you have is Nova and being extremely tanky. Ok, that is great. This is what Sorcadin is good for. But it's not the gish we are looking for.
6. "Note one big thing with this build is that I rarely ever used smites between levels 7 and 12 unless I had a critical hit or it was the climatic battle of the fight. All of my spells went towards defense, buffs, and mobility." - that is what I am saying - you are tanky but you have no damage unless you burn yourself. You rarely used smites between level 7 and 12? So how much did you use smites between level 1-7. I can tell cause I was playing that build - almost zero unless you were 100% sure this is boss battle or there is enemy that needs to die fast.
7. You picked up GWM when? You said you started with RES (CON) at level 1 and you got +2 CHA at level 4 and +2 CHA at level then.

You wrote "Level 4 Sorcerer I grabbed GWM and Misty Step. I could use Sacred Weapon + Quickened Booming Blade + GWM for a huge, reasonable accurate hit on the first turn." - How exactly you were using GWM is you did not have that feat taken for 10 levels?

8. "4 crucial Sorcery Points (and an ASI) so you can quicken twice per fight" - no, my friend. You can Quicken TWICE PER DAY.

I am glad you enjoyed AL build. Though that build seems to be missing GWM feat. But I played it too and I disagree he is anywhere near being best gish. Best "tank" in game? Well, to be precisce- most ukillable character? Probably yes, at least till 20 level Moon Druid.

[Deathtongue]

1. You can't "cheese" with Ogre Gautlets in normal game. It's up to DM what you will get and when. AL builds are totally different as you can choose your own magic items which trivialize a lot of problems. Which is why I posted an alternative stat array.

2. AL adventerures day are different than normal adventures game - Which is why I'm puzzled why you think Pal 2 / Sorcerer 18 is viable in non-AL games. Sustainability is the name of the game and unless the character is willing to take a huge hit to their damage then it's not recommended.

3. Paladin is not strongest class in first 6 levels. Also what do you mean by "strongest"? Damage? - Not just damage. I mean the whole kit of survivability. Paladins can get outdamaged even in short workdays, but between Extra Attack, Lay on Hands, a good Sacred Oath, Wrathful Smite, Shield of Faith, Protection from Evil and Good, heavy armor proficiency, a fighting style, and Bless they have respectable melee damage AND good durability even without dipping into smite.

4. "Only boring level is Pal 6 / Sor 2" - mate, that is like 40% of your 1-20 level progression. Aside from being tanky with Aura + Shield (a lot of slots to use that Shield...) + Absorb Elements you have nothing vs 8 level Hexblade, Arcane Cleric and couple other builds What do you mean, "aside from being tanky"?? The paladin Aura is arguably the best freakin' feature in the game, with only outright broken features like Illusory Reality comparing. And you'd better believe I'd be using that Shield to save me from being smacked for 30+ damage. I don't use it all of the time, but it's there when a couple of Frost Giants decide to go to town on my character.

5. "unhittable", "unkillable" - ok, but where is that sustain damage? What is DPR of this build? Because all I see here is "tank" build, which is fine. Sorcadin is pretty much unkillable but what else? What does he offer as gish at this point?
1) Quicken Spell + Booming Blade.
2) Smites when need be.
3) Bless + Sacred Weapon/Oath of Enmity + GMW if you can keep it in your pants until level 10. You can grab the feat earlier if you really REALLY feel small in the pants without your precious melee damage.
There's your sustainable damage. And this doesn't even count other great paladin tricks like Wrathful Smite (an OMG good spell) and Thunderous Smite.

You wrote "Level 4 Sorcerer I grabbed GWM and Misty Step. I could use Sacred Weapon + Quickened Booming Blade + GWM for a huge, reasonable accurate hit on the first turn." - How exactly you were using GWM is you did not have that feat taken for 10 levels?- I just told you: I went Sword and Board until level 10 and then switched over to GWM once I picked up the feat.

"4 crucial Sorcery Points (and an ASI) so you can quicken twice per fight" - no, my friend. You can Quicken TWICE PER DAY. - And I could recycle spells into more Quickens. I can do that. It becomes increasingly easier as the game goes on.

[Benny89]

1. You can't "cheese" with Ogre Gautlets in normal game. It's up to DM what you will get and when. AL builds are totally different as you can choose your own magic items which trivialize a lot of problems. Which is why I posted an alternative stat array.

2. AL adventerures day are different than normal adventures game - Which is why I'm puzzled why you think Pal 2 / Sorcerer 18 is viable in non-AL games. Sustainability is the name of the game and unless the character is willing to take a huge hit to their damage then it's not recommended.

3. Paladin is not strongest class in first 6 levels. Also what do you mean by "strongest"? Damage? - Not just damage. I mean the whole kit of survivability. Paladins can get outdamaged even in short workdays, but between Extra Attack, Lay on Hands, a good Sacred Oath, Wrathful Smite, Shield of Faith, Protection from Evil and Good, heavy armor proficiency, a fighting style, and Bless they have respectable melee damage AND good durability even without dipping into smite.

4. "Only boring level is Pal 6 / Sor 2" - mate, that is like 40% of your 1-20 level progression. Aside from being tanky with Aura + Shield (a lot of slots to use that Shield...) + Absorb Elements you have nothing vs 8 level Hexblade, Arcane Cleric and couple other builds What do you mean, "aside from being tanky"?? The paladin Aura is arguably the best freakin' feature in the game, with only outright broken features like Illusory Reality comparing. And you'd better believe I'd be using that Shield to save me from being smacked for 30+ damage. I don't use it all of the time, but it's there when a couple of Frost Giants decide to go to town on my character.

5. "unhittable", "unkillable" - ok, but where is that sustain damage? What is DPR of this build? Because all I see here is "tank" build, which is fine. Sorcadin is pretty much unkillable but what else? What does he offer as gish at this point?
1) Quicken Spell + Booming Blade.
2) Smites when need be.
3) Bless + Sacred Weapon/Oath of Enmity + GMW if you can keep it in your pants until level 10. You can grab the feat earlier if you really REALLY feel small in the pants without your precious melee damage.
There's your sustainable damage. And this doesn't even count other great paladin tricks like Wrathful Smite (an OMG good spell) and Thunderous Smite.

You wrote "Level 4 Sorcerer I grabbed GWM and Misty Step. I could use Sacred Weapon + Quickened Booming Blade + GWM for a huge, reasonable accurate hit on the first turn." - How exactly you were using GWM is you did not have that feat taken for 10 levels?- I just told you: I went Sword and Board until level 10 and then switched over to GWM once I picked up the feat.

"4 crucial Sorcery Points (and an ASI) so you can quicken twice per fight" - no, my friend. You can Quicken TWICE PER DAY. - And I could recycle spells into more Quickens. I can do that. It becomes increasingly easier as the game goes on.

1) Quicken Spell + Booming Blade. - 2 times per day on level 8... great DPR. Boomin Blade? So you get extra attack but it's better to use Booming Blade? That is what I am talking about. You have no damage. At level 6 you can easly push DPR of 40+ with some builds at this level. Without wasting tons of resources too.
2) Smites when need be. - Bless, Wrathful Smite, Shield of Faith, Protection from Evil and Good. How many slots is really left for those or for smites during first 8 levels?
3) Bless + Sacred Weapon/Oath of Enmity + GMW - That is only one level 14. Till 14 level you have no sustain damage. Even after level 14 you have 2d6 + 3 + 10 damage per attack. And your only way of offsetting -5 to hit is Sacred Weapon, which is one per short rest and action to turn on.

Again, this is great Nova build and boss killer, but it's not gish I am looking for. One of the requirments was that gish should feel strong from level 1-20 as much as possible. Your build till level 11 has nothing apart from occasional Nova and being hard to kill. It's weak caster, semi-decent fighter till level 11, no high level spell slots and the only requirements he meets is high defense and using melee weapon.

I already played various of min-maxed builds and Sorcadins are not that impressive, unless you have like 2-3 encounters per day and you start higher than from level 1. It's a boss killer build, but not the best mix of caster-fighter I was having in mind.

"Bless + Sacred Weapon/Oath of Enmity + GMW if you can keep it in your pants until level 10" - So for most than half of my progression I do no damage just so at level 14 I can do what Fighter, Hexblade, Arcana Cleric or Barbarian were already doing for first 10 levels.... Also you took RES (CON), CHA +2 and CHA+2. That is level 1, 4 and 10. So you can take GWM only on level 14!! That is 70% of 1-20 progression without ANY sustain melee damage at all. 14 levels to deal any respectable damage? At this point you start doing what most were doing from level 4-14. So yeah, just "keep it in your pants for 14 levels".

"And I could recycle spells into more Quickens. I can do that. " - and waste more slots? Where they will be for spells and smites?

I know this build, I played 6/14 Sorcadin. The resources are poor, no matter how much damage you can crank up from smites in single turn on paper and boss fight- your resources are bad for any sustain damage during proper adventure day, which should have 6-8 encounters.

Also, one last thing - Sacred Weapon is ACTION. Not bonus action like VoE. So your Bless + Sacred Weapon + GWM is basically first turn standing still using Sacred Weapon and quicken Bless. Your first turn you do pretty much no damage at all. And if you won't use Sacred Weapon - you won't hit anything at all. And one Quicken already down. And you need bonus action to convert slots to points. Sorcadin is a set up Nova build.


Here is quick DPR comparsion on level 10. For the sake of comparsion let's say you took GWM on level 10 instead of level 14, so this build makes any sense at all earlier then when most people end their campaigns...

Sorcadin Devotion 6/4 (18 CHA):

1st turn - no damage. Sacred Weapon + Quicken Bless.
2nd turn - 2d6 + 3 + 10 + 5d8, 2d6 + 3 + 10 + 4d8, 2d6 + 3 + 10 + 4d8.

To hit bonus: average +6 from SW and Bless.

Damage: 118,5 damage.

You dealt 59,25 damage per turn. Slots used: 4. Slots left: 6

PAM GWM Zealot Barbarian level 10 (18 STR + advantage):

To hit bonus: average +5 from advantage.

1st turn: (1d10 + 4 + 10 + 3 + 1d6 + 5) + (1d10 + 4 + 10 + 3).
2nd turn: 1d10 + 4 + 10 + 3 + 1d6 + 5) + (1d10 + 4 + 10 + 3) + (1d4 + 4 + 10 + 3).

Damage: 126,5 damage
Damage per turn: 63,25

Ok, so you burnt 4 slots and all Sorc Points to deal less damage in 2 turns than Zealot Barbarian deals in every fight with almost no resource cost.

Impressive nova, but poor DPR. 3rd turn you would get ahead of Zealot but at the cost of having almost no slots left for anything else after this fight. That is the disadvantage of Sorcadin. Until he gets to level 11 where he can finally grab Spirit Guardians and Spiritual Weapon - he has poor DPR. It gets very good at level 11+ but it's not perfect when you wait more than half of your 1-20 progress for build to finally start working together.

[stoutstien]

Huh, I thought Warlock spells known were locked to Warlock spellcasting. The more you know!
Also you can nab AoA with Mark of warding dwarf from ERLW. Nasty on a moon druid or abjur wizard.

[RSP]

I would call it way better than ok. Especially if you pair it with resistance. From play experience, it has often been the highest damage dealing ability in my two campaigns going from Tomb of Annihilation to Rise of Tiamat. A lot of monsters get many attacks rather than a few big ones (ie dragons besides their breath weapon).

If you pair it with resistance, it’s better, sure (hence my point about Barbs using it), but that’s not the way to judge a spell accurately as most casters don’t have resistance baked in (not to mention having resistance to the specific type of damage that is affecting them at the moment).

The point is, the only reliable part of AoA is the tHP, because damage regularly occurs in ways that aren’t melee attacks. Generally, you’ll go through the tHPs in an attack or two, assuming casting with the highest level slot.

The tHPs are certainly helpful, and, sure, sometimes you’ll get the retributive damage, but that’s far from guaranteed.

So compare it to other spells at different levels: Hex will do more damage, and more reliably, over its duration. Suggestion, Invisibility, Misty Step are better at 2nd and Mirror Image will most likely eat more attacks, and, therefore, prevent the loss of more HPs. At 3rd, Fear, Counterspell, Dispel Magic, Hypnotic Pattern, Fly, and Major Image are all better spells. At 4th, Banishment, Dimension Door, Sickening Radiance and Shadows of Moil (which is straight up a much better spell for defense and offense, albeit with Conc requirement) are all better. And at 5th, Synaptic Static is, again, better at both offense (nice AoE) and defense (-1d6 to attack’s against you). Based on your character, any of the Summons spells are probably more damage and less attacks against the PC then AoA does.

So, generally speaking, it’s an okay, middle of the pack spell that, due to non-Conc can see use every so often. As a Bladelock in my current campaign, I have it as a spell known but have only actually used it a couple times (both when we had prep time for a combat); when used I appreciate the tHPs, but there’s better uses of my slots (we’re 12th at the moment, for context).

[Cerefel]

So, some builds I personally really like:

Paladin 2/Swords Bard 18:

has similar DPR to pure paladin, but more slots to smite from sooner
has a strong chassis compared to other gishes, with good hit dice (d8s at minimum with 2d10 to start), extra attack at 8, two fighting styles, built-in combat abilities like boosts to AC or damage, and all of the standard melee proficiencies
has very strong spellcasting including spells known of 9th level, and can even take spells from other spell lists



This one barely counts as a gish, but has some very fun things going for it

Barbarian 2/Arcane Trickster Rogue 18

nearly always has advantage to hit, which triggers sneak attack and improves hit rate
can have both expertise in athletics and rage or buff spells giving advantage, making for a very good grappler
can have several strong gish spells like shield, mirror image, haste, and shadow blade since some are illusions
at lv20 can negate advantage to be hit, even from reckless attack



Also, there's something I feel should be pointed out:


Again, this is great Nova build and boss killer, but it's not gish I am looking for. One of the requirments was that gish should feel strong from level 1-20 as much as possible. Your build till level 11 has nothing apart from occasional Nova and being hard to kill. It's weak caster, semi-decent fighter till level 11, no high level spell slots and the only requirements he meets is high defense and using melee weapon.

High DPR isn't the only way to have an effective melee build you know. If that's not what you're looking for that's fine, but I think it's a little unfair to criticize a tank build for not competing with a pure damage build in terms of DPR. Your zealot that you were using for comparison can do more damage sure, but it loses out on utility and survivability in comparison.

[Mr Adventurer]

Barbarian rage means you can't cast or concentrate on spells. It's pretty tricky to balance if you want to have spellcasting.

[Benny89]

High DPR isn't the only way to have an effective melee build you know. If that's not what you're looking for that's fine, but I think it's a little unfair to criticize a tank build for not competing with a pure damage build in terms of DPR. Your zealot that you were using for comparison can do more damage sure, but it loses out on utility and survivability in comparison.

I don't cirticize Sorcadin per se. I even said that it's a great build for WHAT IT DOES. I was criticizing statements like "Paladin 1-6 is strongest class in game", "Great sustain damage" which is false, because its Nova build and "strongest gish" which also I disagree with due to poor spellcasting, low level spells, low number of slots (that also need to fuel Smites) and access to only max of 7th level spells at level 19!

Problem with Sorcadins is that their "super damage" that people love to calculate on forums "XXXXk8 + XXXXk8" is only really viable in very specific scenario and fight and overall- Sorcadins are very restricted with their damage at will during whole adventuring day because of low resources.

So, to close this- I am not bashing Sorcadins for what they are but I am criticizing them for what they are not. And that is sustain melee damage over the course of adventuring day and being great casters. At least till evel 11 when finally they have some spells that can fill that DPR to some extend.


Barbarian rage means you can't cast or concentrate on spells. It's pretty tricky to balance if you want to have spellcasting.

That was example just to show that Sorcadin damage is not really that impressive when it comes to adventuring day. They have tons of good stuff about them, but spellcasting and DPR is not their strong side. They are Nova/Tank builds.

[col_impact]

In order to comply with the demand for 9th level spells.....

I'd have to go with Paladin 2/Warlock (Hexblade) 1/Bard (Swords) 17 as the best combo.

Progression would be:
Variant Human - Sentinel, Perception Skill, Undercommon Language
For Skills, at first level you pick up Athletics and Intimidation, take the mercenary veteran background, picking up Persuasion, Animal Handling, Land Vehicles, Cards, and the mercenary life feature.

1st - Paladin 1 - All armor, All weapons, Shields, Max D10 HD, Lay on Hands
2nd - Warlock (Hexblade) 1 - Charisma for attack and damage, Hexblade's Curse, Warlock spells & Bonus slots (Booming Blade, Eldritch Blast, Shield and Hex).
3rd - Paladin 2 - Defensive fighting style, Paladin Spells (Cure light wounds, Thunderous Smite), Divine Smite
4th - Bard 1 - Bardic Inspiration, Bardic Spells, Proficiency in the Lyre and Performance
5th - Bard 2 - Jack of all trades
6th - Bard 3 - melee weapons as as spell foci, Two weapon Fighting style, Blade Flourish, Expertise x2 (Perception, 1 other)
7th - Bard 4 - Dual Wielding
8th - Bard 5
9th - Bard 6 - Extra Attack
10th - Bard 7
11th - Bard 8 - ASI - Probably Warcaster
12th - Bard 9
13th - Bard 10 - Magical Secrets (Counterspell and Haste), Expertise x2
14th - Bard 11
15th - Bard 12 - ASI
16th - Bard 13
17th - Bard 14 - Master's Flourish Unlimited d6 flourishes, Magical Secrets
18th - Bard 15
19th - Bard 16 - ASI
20th - Bard 17

With this build, the first thing you have to do is a perception shift so that you view a) attacks as a means to deliver divine smites and b) spell slots as primarily smite fuel, with back-up utility value.

That means that you likely want to get as MANY attacks as possible, which is why we are adding two-weapon fighting as a focus to the build, why we are adding sentinel as a means to get more reaction attacks, and why we used a magical secret on the haste spell.

At early levels, Booming Blade will be used to help offset the delayed appearance of our extra attack, and Eldritch Blast will be used in combination with our Hex and Hexblade's Curse to mitigate any ranged issues we might face, but make no mistake, this build is meant to get up in people's faces and stab them as much and as hard as you can.

With the two weapon fighting style and duel wielding in place, we can reasonably expect to get off three attacks a round by level 9, using our bonus action for the third. Each of these is eligible for smite damage being added on top, and our Hexblade's curse can be expected to stack as well, potentially giving us our proficiency mod to damage, as well as increasing our chance to crit. Once we get Haste at level 13, the build is now making 4 attacks a round, each of which can be smites fueled by our spell slots.

In addition, with the sentinel feat and dual wielder in play by level 7, consider pairing a whip with a longsword as your weapon choices. The enhanced reach of the whip will pair well with the shorter reach of the longsword, meaning that if anyone tries to move away from you either in base to base contact or from 5 ft away, you SHOULD be entitled to an opportunity attack, rules as written. This will help make your character more sticky, as any opportunity attack you get will set the speed of the opponent to zero, and is, of course, another opportunity for a smite.

Of course, sentinel also lets you use your reaction to make an attack if your opponent attacks someone else within 5 feet of you. Odds are, between the two features, you'll likely be using your reaction to get a 5th attack in as well.

Of course, if you're opponent stays put and attacks you directly, this is where the 5 1st level slots you're going to have from level 3ish will help, letting you use your reaction to fire off a shield spell instead of getting an additional attack, if needed.

Damage enhancement options are pretty plentiful, what with divine smite being an option on pretty much any melee attack, hex being a potentially useful application of a 1st level spell slot if you aren't in a situation that quite calls for you to pop haste, and hexblade's curse and your flourish options also needing to factor in. Keep in mind, at 17th level you basically get unlimited d6 flourishes, which means that there is no reason for you to be doing just base damage anymore. Finally, if you want to create force multipliers, you could slant the build to include the spells animate dead and animate objects on the same build, then prepare something like crusader's mantle to magnify the damage dealt. There's a lot of options (shrug).

Of course, as others have pointed out, the requirement of still having 9th level spells in the build is actually pretty limiting, but whatever.

Note that a key feature of this build is that you are making CHA your primary attribute. You will likely need a 15 in str to use heavy armor, but Dexterity becomes relatively optional, as you aren't using it for AC or ranged attacks. In an ideal world, without the need to maintain 9th level spell access, taking 6 levels of paladin to get extra attack and cha to saves would make dex thoroughly redundant. You would likely still want a 15 str to properly use heavy armor, however, but you wouldn't need to go any higher than that, and instead could pretty much focus on CHA.

Interesting take for sure. Do you really need 2 level dip in Palladin? What is advantage of a 2 level dip versus just picking up Branding Smite or Banishing Smite with Magical Secrets and staying straight Bard.

[tyckspoon]

Interesting take for sure. Do you really need 2 level dip in Palladin? What is advantage of a 2 level dip versus just picking up Branding Smite or Banishing Smite with Magical Secrets and staying straight Bard.

The Smite spells are Concentration, need a Bonus Action to cast, and only affect your next hit. So that conflicts with maintaining Haste on yourself and using Bonus Actions to attack, plus doesn't give the enormous burst damage capacity of dumping a Smite on each successful attack when that should be called for. They also don't scale as well - Branding Smite starts at 2nd level for 2d6 damage, + 1d6 per upcast level. Divine Smite is 2d8 at first plus 1d8 per upcast. Banishing Smite is.. yeah, that's good, but it's also a 5th level spell. You're not going to be chunking those out that freely.

[col_impact]

The Smite spells are Concentration, need a Bonus Action to cast, and only affect your next hit. So that conflicts with maintaining Haste on yourself and using Bonus Actions to attack, plus doesn't give the enormous burst damage capacity of dumping a Smite on each successful attack when that should be called for. They also don't scale as well - Branding Smite starts at 2nd level for 2d6 damage, + 1d6 per upcast level. Divine Smite is 2d8 at first plus 1d8 per upcast. Banishing Smite is.. yeah, that's good, but it's also a 5th level spell. You're not going to be chunking those out that freely.

Sure. But if I am going to take 2 levels of Palladin, I want Divination Wizard 17-18 more than Bard 18.

[Cerefel]

Sure. But if I am going to take 2 levels of Palladin, I want Divination Wizard 17-18 more than Bard 18.

The problem there is that divination wizard gives up a LOT of HP compared to the bard, and loses extra attack in addition to that

[col_impact]

The problem there is that divination wizard gives up a LOT of HP compared to the bard, and loses extra attack in addition to that

Not if you take advantage of all that Wizard has to offer. 😊

Wink, wink, say no more, say no more.

[loki_ragnarock]

Barbarian rage means you can't cast or concentrate on spells. It's pretty tricky to balance if you want to have spellcasting.

If you want to have it in the same encounter? It sure is.

If you want to have it in the same day? It's perfect.

Tacking on a Barbarian level basically just gives you two combat encounters a day that you can decide to be a pure Fighty McStabface, to supplement your Spelly McCaster abilities that you're relying on most of the day. In this case it's more of a Gish via toggle switch than a smooth dial.

[Tokuhara]

Personal?

Half-Drow Paladin 2/Hexblade 1/Favored Soul Sorcerer 17.

You're all but Charisma SAD, have 9th level spells, Armor of Agathys and Hex, Healing, All of Cleric and Sorcerer, Smites, and Fullplate+shield. Simple, elegant, and fairly strong tbh

But my actual Favorite?

Mark of Warding Dwarf Battlesmith Artificer 3/Abjuration Wizard 17, preferably taking a Guild Background from GGtR if you can get away with it (personal faves are Boros, Orzhov, and Izzet). There's just some pure style to a Dwarf Wizard in Half-plate with enough HP and AC to just trailblaze through anything with impunity

[chando]

I don't disagree... well, I do disagree to a certain point. At will damage is sort of a problem for bards in general. But thanks to several spells that become available to them via magical secrets, they can actually fair pretty well with Tensor's Transformation, and the far better Holy Weapon.
You thought I was going to say Shadow Blade, I'm sure, which is also a solid option. The problem is that Shadow Blade precludes you from using it with your magic sword, and you can't be a Gish without your Silver Sword.

Further, a Valor bard isn't that far behind other things that rock the extra attack feature. They don't get alot to back it up in their chassis, but they still get access to feats; nothing stops a Valor bard from rocking out with Great Weapon Master to knock back some arpeggios on the great axe. And... that's all they'd need, basically, to have pretty effective damage output. No trio of feats required, and no MADder than a typical paladin, really.

But yeah, all it takes is a 2 level dip of paladin to suddenly become the character that's actually good at everything pretty quickly. Otherwise it's wait for 10 or take one or two feats to round out a little.
In a featless, multi-classless game, though, their about as tanky as you can make a primary arcane caster. Which isn't nothing.

Agree completely here.

Also a point of notice, any caster build will want Resilient(con) at some point (unless you start with it), and any gish probably will want Warcaster to cast in melee and as a Reaction as well. The more extra feats you are "required to be a effective gish" the more you delay these choices, or takes longer to come online. or dont boost your main casting. (str enhancing items seem esier to come by). You most probably have some melee only characters in the party, nothing wrong with letting them take some cutie cooter melee builds that combine multiple feats.

If you want to stcik to main caster and access to 9th level spell that is.
I also think EK 11-13/ Caster 7-9 are great gish builds. the ability to strike them hard and make your spell land effectivelly. The spells you use to solve encounters even in high levels are mostly 1-5. Since you have so few higher levels spells, the best usually are the ones that use best your resources. Even before we go into Simmulacrum, there seems to be many that is like Eyebite, Mass Suggestion, and a bunch of effects that are "much like lower level spells, but better/more targets/more times" and dont necessary make it more likely to land (except via number of targets/attempts), where a upcasted banishiment might have same or better effect, especiallty if you strike it hard with your sword for disvantage on the Cha save beforehand.

[Mr Adventurer]

If you want to have it in the same encounter? It sure is.

If you want to have it in the same day? It's perfect.

Tacking on a Barbarian level basically just gives you two combat encounters a day that you can decide to be a pure Fighty McStabface, to supplement your Spelly McCaster abilities that you're relying on most of the day. In this case it's more of a Gish via toggle switch than a smooth dial.

I think without Extra Attack and the improvements to Rage, and without being able to buff yourself in melee, those Rage combats will be disappointing.


EDIT: Good to see some support for ~50% EK Gish builds! :D

But when I build them I find the sequencing difficult to optimise. EK features up to level 7 (and Extra Attack 2 at 11) are very good for purpose, but even dipping Wizard 2 on the way is a significant delay. And conversely, 7 to 11/12 lost levels of Wizard are a huge delay to actually improved spellcasting.

[Deathtongue]

1) Quicken Spell + Booming Blade. - 2 times per day on level 8... great DPR. Boomin Blade? So you get extra attack but it's better to use Booming Blade? That is what I am talking about. You have no damage. At level 6 you can easly push DPR of 40+ with some builds at this level. Without wasting tons of resources too.Or, and here's an interesting idea, you can use both of them when you need a damage spike. If you're running a long workday of 4-6 fights, you can just stick with Extra Attack + Hunter's Mark/Bless. You know, like what most non-barbarian martial characters do. But when you need to throw down, that's when you can dip into your stock of tricks.

Levels 7 and 8 are your slowest ones for a reason. But it's not the end of the world, levels 7 and 8 are slow for a lot of melee builds -- ask the various Fighter subclasses, Hexblade, and the Ranger. But after that hump, your melee DPR accelerates as the game goes on. You get access to spells like Haste and Greater Invis (which will immediately cause your DPR to shoot up past the GWM Barbarian's) and you'll get enough sorcery points and spare slots to give you more DPR fuel for buffs/quicken spell/even smites.


2) Smites when need be. - Bless, Wrathful Smite, Shield of Faith, Protection from Evil and Good. How many slots is really left for those or for smites during first 8 levels?Like I said, I didn't use smites all that much. Until you reach about level 14 or so, they're spice, not your mainstay. Your spells should be used for buffs or to recharge Sorcery Points.

3) Bless + Sacred Weapon/Oath of Enmity + GMW - That is only one level 14. Till 14 level you have no sustain damage. Even after level 14 you have 2d6 + 3 + 10 damage per attack. And your only way of offsetting -5 to hit is Sacred Weapon, which is one per short rest and action to turn on.


Again, this is great Nova build and boss killer, but it's not gish I am looking for. One of the requirments was that gish should feel strong from level 1-20 as much as possible. Your build till level 11 has nothing apart from occasional Nova and being hard to kill. It's weak caster, semi-decent fighter till level 11, no high level spell slots and the only requirements he meets is high defense and using melee weapon.If what you're looking for is sustainable melee damage that can compete with GMW Barbarian-Fighters before level 11, there's no gish that will satisfy you. Certainly not your 2/18 build, unless you only like 1 encounter workdays with no magic items. And even if your DM does run things that way, 2/18 is still inferior to 6/14 for melee damage, you just need to box clever.



Here is quick DPR comparsion on level 10. For the sake of comparsion let's say you took GWM on level 10 instead of level 14, so this build makes any sense at all earlier then when most people end their campaigns...
*snip*

Are you aware that Zealot Barbarian is the strongest DPR build for most of the game? I think only Samurai Archer Sharpshooters compare. What your build showed is that for important fights, the Sorcadin can compare. Well... yeah. What do you expect? If the Sorceradin (or any other kind of gish) could put up those kind of numbers for more than 5-6 rounds, they'd be grossly overpowered considering their other advantages.

[jas61292]

So, just as a disclaimer, I generally do not like "gish" characters. Fairly or not, my experience has come to associate them with wanting to steal the spotlight by being good at everything. Fortunately in 5e, its a lot harder to do that, and most gishs can't really steal the spotlight in melee combat unless you are doing very short adventuring days. But despite that, the entire concept of being a melee character that also throws around high level spells leaves tends to leave a bad taste in my mouth.

So with that said, its perhaps not surprising that I don't have a ton of experience with such characters. I once played a Paladin/Bard combo, and while I enjoyed the character, some unfortunate dice rolls put him in a far too early grave, before the build could really come online. And other than that one character, I've only really played for an extended period of time one other character that could really qualify for this. But that character was a ton of fun, without feeling like they were trying to do too much. So I guess that makes that build the "ultimate" for me. And lets just say its a bit... different... from what most people are throwing around here.

That character was a Gloomstaker Ranger / Grave Cleric. Specifically, I started with 5 levels of Ranger, and then went Cleric. I believe this character only ever got up to level 11, but I almost certainly would have kept going Cleric till the end if I had kept going. While cleric casting is very different than the Arcane casting a lot of Gishes focus more on, I really love the supportive nature of it. And as far as actual melee capability, Gloomstalker gives an extra attack in the first round of combat every time, with some extra damage, you have extra attack, and as you get higher level in Cleric, you can layer the traditional Cleric standbys of Spiritual Weapon and Spirit Guardians on top. They may come online a bit later, but having Spiritual Weapon be a third attack instead is really nice.

Not going to make any claims that this is one of the most powerful builds, but it is a build that I absolutely adore. It satisfies all the necessary requirements of being a great caster and good in melee. And its the kinda build that has a relatively consistent power level throughout the day (at least for a caster) rather than being nova heavy, which I love.

[Benny89]

Are you aware that Zealot Barbarian is the strongest DPR build for most of the game? I think only Samurai Archer Sharpshooters compare. What your build showed is that for important fights, the Sorcadin can compare. Well... yeah. What do you expect? If the Sorceradin (or any other kind of gish) could put up those kind of numbers for more than 5-6 rounds, they'd be grossly overpowered considering their other advantages.

The point is that your build only start to do relevant damage from level 11 up if you take GWM at level 10. If we go your build you start to make relevant damage only from level 14+.

Before that all what you have is medicore Hunter's Mark + Extra attacks which is like good 1-5 damage at best. 5-14 you are behind anything that wants to deal damage.

Zealot is strong DPR but there are tons of builds that can do great/high consistent DPR from level 1:

Any PAM Fighter, Hexblade, Barbarian. Any Crossbow Expert Fighter, Hexblade. Even Hexblade/Lore Bard will do more DPR with Booming Blade than that on tier 1-3. Even Hexblade with sword and shield will do more damage than that on tier 1-2.

GWM Devotion Paladin (Variant Human GWM, +2 CHA can do good damage from lower levels if you plan your ASI correct, which you didn't.





Your build lacks smooth power curve. That's usually the problem with Sorcadins. They take quite a long time to get "online". For me the builds are not builds that start to shine from level 11, 12, 15 but those which are as strong as possible from level 1-20.

If you want to build good early to late levels Sorcadin, think how to be good from level 1-20, not only from level 11+.

[Tokuhara]

This is actually why I lean towards the Mark of Warding Dwarf Battlesmith/Abjurer blend. It comes online by 5th level, and really isn't bad 1-4 because you're still an Artificer with all of those tools early on and at 4th, you have the addition of being a Wizard.

[Benny89]

This is actually why I lean towards the Mark of Warding Dwarf Battlesmith/Abjurer blend. It comes online by 5th level, and really isn't bad 1-4 because you're still an Artificer with all of those tools early on and at 4th, you have the addition of being a Wizard.

Interesting. Why Abjurer?

Also I think that 10 Battle Smith is jut too good to skip.

[Tokuhara]

Interesting. Why Abjurer?

Also I think that 10 Battle Smith is jut too good to skip.

Specifically, pertaining to either Deep Gnome or Mark of Warding Dwarf, for the easy recharge Arcane Ward. It adds a nice toughness that is just magnificent.

And agreed, but to get 9th level spells, you do have to sacrifice that ability

[king_steve]

Also I think that 10 Battle Smith is jut too good to skip.

If you go to Artificer 11 you get the SSI (Spell Storing Item) which adds a lot of versatility and can be really strong depending on what spell you put into the SSI.

[Warlush]

I haven't seen anyone mention Valor Bard yet, is there a reason for that?

I haven't played one yet, but they fit the criteria well.

Yeah they are the best "gish" in the game in my opinion. Based on the fact that anyone who gets two attacks is gonna have "decent" damage, and they learn several spells off any list. Arguably the most versatile caster in the game gets medium armor and two attacks.
I think they aren't popular because they don't get anything loud or sexy (smites,blade flourish,curses,mental stat damage added to weapon damage) but they get everything they need to excel in melee while casting all kinds of spells.

[col_impact]

Paladin 2/ Life Cleric 1/Druid X is very potent.

[Arkhios]

Paladin 2/ Life Cleric 1/Druid X is very potent.

Burning your slots for divine smite while wild shaped, definitely.

However, it's worthwhile to pay close attention to the wordings of Combat Wild Shape and Disciple of Life.

I'm not saying you were implying this, but Disciple of Life doesn't affect Combat Wild Shape's self healing, because expending a spell slot to regain hit points ≠ using a spell to regain hit points.

[col_impact]

Burning your slots for divine smite while wild shaped, definitely.

However, it's worthwhile to pay close attention to the wordings of Combat Wild Shape and Disciple of Life.

I'm not saying you were implying this, but Disciple of Life doesn't affect Combat Wild Shape's self healing, because expending a spell slot to regain hit points ≠ using a spell to regain hit points.

Munching on ##GREATBERRIES## is OP enough, don'cha tink? ## GO NINJA GO NINJA GO##

[Arkhios]

Munching on ##GREATBERRIES## is OP enough, don'cha tink? ## GO NINJA GO NINJA GO##

Point taken

[TheUser]

Bladesinger is the only thing that will satisfy your conditions.

At level 6 it gets Haste and Extra Attack which when combined with Mage Armor, Blade Dance and Shield give 26 AC consistently.

Resillient Con + Bladesong to always concentrate on spells.

Has Absorb Elements and Counterspell to deal with non-physical threats.

Mirror Image for low attack number big bads.

Gets stoneskin at 7 to deal with high damage high + to hit enemies.

Three attacks with Haste potentially 4 if you offhand.

No need to GWM or Sharpshooter because Shadowblade exists and also +Int to damage at 14.

In tier 3 you can start burning low level slots to tank damage.

Highest Endgame AC (35 with Robe of the Archmage, +3 sentinel weapon, Bracers of Unarmored Defense +2, bladesong 20 INT, 20 DEX, Shield spell).

Only problem is crap tier HP but with all their mitigation and jenky spells they are fine.

[Mr Adventurer]

Haste and Shadow Blade are both concentration spells.

[Kane0]

My definition of gish is a bit different, id probably go with EK with some wizard or artificer mixed in.

[col_impact]

Bladesinger is the only thing that will satisfy your conditions.

At level 6 it gets Haste and Extra Attack which when combined with Mage Armor, Blade Dance and Shield give 26 AC consistently.

Resillient Con + Bladesong to always concentrate on spells.

Has Absorb Elements and Counterspell to deal with non-physical threats.

Mirror Image for low attack number big bads.

Gets stoneskin at 7 to deal with high damage high + to hit enemies.

Three attacks with Haste potentially 4 if you offhand.

No need to GWM or Sharpshooter because Shadowblade exists and also +Int to damage at 14.

In tier 3 you can start burning low level slots to tank damage.

Highest Endgame AC (35 with Robe of the Archmage, +3 sentinel weapon, Bracers of Unarmored Defense +2, bladesong 20 INT, 20 DEX, Shield spell).

Only problem is crap tier HP but with all their mitigation and jenky spells they are fine.

What's your top movement speed?

[TheUser]

What's your top movement speed?

Over 80ft (haste + bladesong brings it to this alone)

If you double dash that's 240 movement in one round.

[stoutstien]

Bladesinger is the only thing that will satisfy your conditions.

At level 6 it gets Haste and Extra Attack which when combined with Mage Armor, Blade Dance and Shield give 26 AC consistently.

Resillient Con + Bladesong to always concentrate on spells.

Has Absorb Elements and Counterspell to deal with non-physical threats.

Mirror Image for low attack number big bads.

Gets stoneskin at 7 to deal with high damage high + to hit enemies.

Three attacks with Haste potentially 4 if you offhand.

No need to GWM or Sharpshooter because Shadowblade exists and also +Int to damage at 14.

In tier 3 you can start burning low level slots to tank damage.

Highest Endgame AC (35 with Robe of the Archmage, +3 sentinel weapon, Bracers of Unarmored Defense +2, bladesong 20 INT, 20 DEX, Shield spell).

Only problem is crap tier HP but with all their mitigation and jenky spells they are fine.

You are also one badly timed dispel away from going from Superman to Aquaman.

[JumboWheat01]

It's certainly not ultimate, because gods am I far from an min-maxer or true optimizer, but I do like the Valor Bard for when I'm going full arcane caster with melee fighting power. It's a simple package, single class (which I enjoy,) has decent armor and weaponry, on top of being a full caster, a variety of skills and other bardic goodies. And it's a PHB-standard, which means I can use it in pretty much anything. It also doesn't require any variant rules (remember, multi-classing is a variant rule.)

Though generally when I want to cast and bash, I go with Eldritch Knight.

Yes, yes, there are clerics, Tempest and War in particular, but when I think "gish" I think arcane magic, not divine magic.

[Petrocorus]

My favourite one and in my opinion best gish is Vuman Arcane Cleric with Magi Initiate. My reasons for my pick are:




I've played exactly this build but up to level 5 only, sadly.
It's fun and i loved it but there a few downsides i'd like to point out.

- It's feat intensive, you'll need Magic Initiate, WarCaster, Res (Con).
- Only two wizard cantrips and so many options. You can take BB for the combo with WarCaster and Spirit Guardians but the secondary damages don't always trigger outside of it. GFB triggers more easily, but if you take both, you miss the opportunity to take an utility cantrip like, say, Minor Illusion. If for some reason you need to take Res (Con) early on, then you probably better forgetting about BB.
- The Arcane domain feel like non-existent from level 2 to 5. Having Dispel Magic and Detect Magic always prepped is nice, but the others spells are often a waste and the Channel Divinity may never come into play. You're really longing for this (awesome) level 6 feature.
- You're lacking a nova capability.
- You're a bit lacking on single-target damages.

Otherwise, it is fun, versatile, good for multiple targets damages, support, and utility. I really wish i'll have the opportunity to play it again, but beyond level 6.