Found a canon 64th-level wizard

[bundlesandflows]

Behold, from page 90 of the Epic Level Handbook: Canabulum the 64th-level wizard, depicted making the dubious decision to develop the epic spell hellball.

Sure there are higher-CR creatures from the same questionable handbook, but this right here is an honest-to-goodness standard player race character who just went straight wizard for 64 levels, which by Wizards of the Coast standards may as well be optimized, considering most high-level 3rd edition mages like to waste levels by dipping fighter or rogue.

So is this it? The strongest standard player race NPC ever published by Wizards?

Edit. His artwork:


https://i.imgur.com/vW2H2u6.png

[FaerieGodfather]

He may not have dipped Fighter, but it looks like he thought three feats for Heavy Armor Proficiency were a good investment.

[Yora]

That image is a Pelor cleric.

[Madara]

I like how he has a symbol of Pelor?

Also, he vaguely looks like Elon Musk.

[Telonius]

So, "Hellball" is being developed by a 64th-level "Wizard" who just happens to be dressed in heavy armor and carrying a Holy Symbol of Pelor.

I'd say that this is newly-uncovered evidence in the "Burning Hate" conspiracy. :smallbiggrin:

[AvatarVecna]

He may not have dipped Fighter, but it looks like he thought three feats for Heavy Armor Proficiency were a good investment.

Or he's the kind of wizard who's got enchanted armor with -0 ACP and 0% ASF, which means nonproficiency effectively doesn't matter. :smalltongue:

[lord_khaine]

I also still think a level 64 wizard is 100% is guy who most of all can afford to waste 3 feats on armor proficiency.. :smallamused:

[schreier]

Probably has still spell and automatic still spell three times

[the_tick_rules]

I've never heard of any PC race above 64th level but considering he was just used a reference for epic spell making considering him as existing is questionable.

[ghanjrho]

Or he's the kind of wizard who's got enchanted armor with -0 ACP and 0% ASF, which means nonproficiency effectively doesn't matter. :smalltongue:

Speaking of, I remember seeing a thread that had the cheapest way to get a given AC for a given DEX, complete with options for Druid-friendly, 0% ASF, -0 ACP, and some others, but can’t find it anymore. Do you have it?

[AvatarVecna]

Speaking of, I remember seeing a thread that had the cheapest way to get a given AC for a given DEX, complete with options for Druid-friendly, 0% ASF, -0 ACP, and some others, but can’t find it anymore. Do you have it?

I vaguely recall such a thread but I don't have a link, no.

[ThanatosZero]

Speaking of, I remember seeing a thread that had the cheapest way to get a given AC for a given DEX, complete with options for Druid-friendly, 0% ASF, -0 ACP, and some others, but can’t find it anymore. Do you have it?


I vaguely recall such a thread but I don't have a link, no.

Here you go.
https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?111433-3-5-Weightless-Armor

Edit: But to be honest.
That epic wizard could as well have crafted himself bracers of epic armor +32 for 10,300,000 gp, which surpass any armor in the game.

[Aotrs Commander]

Maybe he developed Hellball out of boredom to show how utterly poor and generally completely awful the Epic spell system is?



(I will just be using straight 10th+ level spells myself when... ... If, at current rate... I do Epic again.)




Also, I once reached level 64 fighter in Planescape: Torment. Does that count?

[ThanatosZero]

Maybe he developed Hellball out of boredom to show how utterly poor and generally completely awful the Epic spell system is?



(I will just be using straight 10th+ level spells myself when... ... If, at current rate... I do Epic again.)




Also, I once reached level 64 fighter in Planescape: Torment. Does that count?

CRPGs take less time, than RL sessions. But yes, it counts.
Albeit not the correct edition.
If you wish to play epic with 3e with a CRPG, I recommend NWN with Startovarious' Player Resource Consortium.

[Lvl45DM!]

Maybe he developed Hellball out of boredom to show how utterly poor and generally completely awful the Epic spell system is?



(I will just be using straight 10th+ level spells myself when... ... If, at current rate... I do Epic again.)




Also, I once reached level 64 fighter in Planescape: Torment. Does that count?

I dont think your playthroughs count as canon though. Or just from me alone there are like 20 Bhaalspawn who own De'Arsine keep

[AvatarVecna]

Maybe he developed Hellball out of boredom to show how utterly poor and generally completely awful the Epic spell system is?



(I will just be using straight 10th+ level spells myself when... ... If, at current rate... I do Epic again.)




Also, I once reached level 64 fighter in Planescape: Torment. Does that count?

Epic Spellcasting in general has problems, and Hellball is just kinda one of the worst examples of it (since you can make a better version of it with regular spells and enough metamagic).

[the_tick_rules]

I vaguely recall such a thread but I don't have a link, no.

A mithral chain shirt with twilight enchantment from book of exalted deeds has no armor check penalty or arcane failure rate.

[AnimeTheCat]

I dont think your playthroughs count as canon though. Or just from me alone there are like 20 Bhaalspawn who own De'Arsine keep

Multiple World Divergence Phenomena. The point of divergence varies, but who's to say even the "cannon" storyline is truly cannon.

Basically, there are 20 different De'Arsine Keeps in 20 different timelines being ruled by 20 diferent Bhaalspawns.

[FaerieGodfather]

I dont think your playthroughs count as canon though. Or just from me alone there are like 20 Bhaalspawn who own De'Arsine keep

Sounds like the basis of a very dark and surreal sitcom.

[OrbanSirgen]

Multiple World Divergence Phenomena. The point of divergence varies, but who's to say even the "cannon" storyline is truly cannon.

Basically, there are 20 different De'Arsine Keeps in 20 different timelines being ruled by 20 diferent Bhaalspawns.

Technically, every time a particular adventure is run, whether tabletop or video game, it's a separate timeline...

[lord_khaine]

Sounds like the basis of a very dark and surreal sitcom.

I would watch the hell out of that :smallbiggrin:

[vasilidor]

he is not stated out anywhere, he is stated to have a +82 spellcraft and be level 64. he has a 40 intelligence from which we can tell he has 67 ranks in spellcraft. He obviously has the epic spellcasting feat and the requirements thereof, beyond that we can write him up however we want.

[schreier]

Here you go.
https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?111433-3-5-Weightless-Armor

Edit: But to be honest.
That epic wizard could as well have crafted himself bracers of epic armor +32 for 10,300,000 gp, which surpass any armor in the game.

Interesting, I always thought the bonuses were capped, even in epic. Like +15 for bracers of armor ... Maybe that's silly

[icefractal]

Maybe he developed Hellball out of boredom to show how utterly poor and generally completely awful the Epic spell system is?

Or as a trap.
"Over the years, Canabulum had grown more frustrated with the many lesser Wizards who copied his spells and strategies verbatim. While he expected and welcomed others learning from his discoveries, many were just immitating with no effort at understanding.

So one night when he was feeling particularly grumpy, he came up with Hellball - a massively inefficient but powerful dweomer, that would take great study and resources to learn, but in the end was less potent than skilled use of normal magics.

After demonstrating it enough for word to get around, Canabulum never cast it again, focusing his attention on more useful research. But other Wizards have wasted years and mountains of gold trying to make it work.

[MalsvirT]

I'm not sure if he's canon or not, but he looks a lot like Shazam

[Biggus]

Interesting, I always thought the bonuses were capped, even in epic. Like +15 for bracers of armor ... Maybe that's silly

The ELH only lists many items up to a certain value (usually twice the nonepic limit) which has led some people to argue that anything beyond this is not canonical. But as the tables for random epic weapons and armor allow potentially infinite enhancement bonuses if you roll well enough, it seems unlikely that the other items are intended to be capped at any particular value.

[Bakkan]

Speaking of, I remember seeing a thread that had the cheapest way to get a given AC for a given DEX, complete with options for Druid-friendly, 0% ASF, -0 ACP, and some others, but can’t find it anymore. Do you have it?

I made that thing! It's in my sig.

[ThanatosZero]

Interesting, I always thought the bonuses were capped, even in epic. Like +15 for bracers of armor ... Maybe that's silly

There are no limits stated in the ELH. For example the epic level progressions for classes only list tables for references and how it continues endlessly.

[VladtheLad]

Interesting fact: If he has pc wealth he will have 8.5 million gp in magic items.

Also I remember the dude from when I first read the epic level handbook back when it was published. My reaction was "Level 64? Meh this is silly."

[Biggus]

Interesting fact: If he has pc wealth he will have 8.5 million gp in magic items.


I think you've made a mistake somewhere, PC wealth is 13.6 million GP at level 40 (ELH p.23). Increasing it 10% per level thereafter comes out to 134 million at level 64. Even NPCs get 14.6 million GP at level 64 (ELH p.317).

[Esprit15]

he is not stated out anywhere, he is stated to have a +82 spellcraft and be level 64. he has a 40 intelligence from which we can tell he has 67 ranks in spellcraft. He obviously has the epic spellcasting feat and the requirements thereof, beyond that we can write him up however we want.

Wait, that means that he has neither Skill Focus (Spellcraft) or Epic Skill Focus (Spellcraft), but he somehow saw fit to take all three armor feats.

[MrSandman]

Wait, that means that he has neither Skill Focus (Spellcraft) or Epic Skill Focus (Spellcraft), but he somehow saw fit to take all three armor feats.

The guy in the picture is not the wizard. He's the epic version of the cleric of Pelor in the core books whose name I can't remember.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

The guy in the picture is not the wizard. He's the epic version of the cleric of Pelor in the core books whose name I can't remember.Which makes me wonder. What happens when a cleric becomes more powerful than his god?

Not like that's hard, either. Canon god builds are crap.

[VladtheLad]

I think you've made a mistake somewhere, PC wealth is 13.6 million GP at level 40 (ELH p.23). Increasing it 10% per level thereafter comes out to 134 million at level 64. Even NPCs get 14.6 million GP at level 64 (ELH p.317).

I made multiple mistakes. Like looking at level 46, but in an excel sheet I had which had which included another mistake.

Btw since there is a 10% increase shouldn't 760k at level 20 become 836k instead of 975 at level 21?

[AlanBruce]

The guy in the picture is not the wizard. He's the epic version of the cleric of Pelor in the core books whose name I can't remember.

You are correct. The Epic Level Handbook has illustrations of each of the known archetypes from the core books as epic. The writers must've mixed their image and text, since the man mistaken as a wizard in the entry is actually Jozan, Cleric of Pelor and an epic level character, as befitting of such a book.

[Buufreak]

So what did Mialee end up looking like?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

So what did Mialee end up looking like?She and Lindsay Lohan could be twins!

https://www.nme.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/gollum.jpg

[OrbanSirgen]

Which makes me wonder. What happens when a cleric becomes more powerful than his god?

Not like that's hard, either. Canon god builds are crap.

That's why there's a pantheon...

[AlanBruce]

So what did Mialee end up looking like?

The image posted above is also fair game given the treatment she got in the actual book:

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/c9/3a/02/c93a0223c74db133bc8dcb41fb14e8be.jpg

[Quertus]

Which makes me wonder. What happens when a cleric becomes more powerful than his god?

Not like that's hard, either. Canon god builds are crap.

The same thing when a warrior becomes stronger than his general, when a subordinate becomes smarter than his leader, when a citizen becomes more honest than a politician.

Fortunately, yes, it's not hard.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

The same thing when a warrior becomes stronger than his general, when a subordinate becomes smarter than his leader, when a citizen becomes more honest than a politician.

Fortunately, yes, it's not hard.I'm pretty sure none of those gain power directly from their superiors (or in the politician's case, ^%&*%).

[Biggus]

I made multiple mistakes. Like looking at level 46, but in an excel sheet I had which had which included another mistake.

Btw since there is a 10% increase shouldn't 760k at level 20 become 836k instead of 975 at level 21?

PC wealth decreases gradually from about +30%/level (19>20) to about +10%/level (39>40), as per the table on ELH p.23. As far as I know, it doesn't actually say anywhere that PC wealth increases by +10%/level after level 40, but it's a fairly safe assumption given that:

1) the level 39>40 increase is +10.6%

2) NPCs after level 30 are stated to increase by about +10%/level

3) epic treasure increases by about +10%/level (ELH p.122, sidebar)

[AvatarVecna]

PC wealth decreases gradually from about +30%/level (19>20) to about +10%/level (39>40), as per the table on ELH p.23. As far as I know, it doesn't actually say anywhere that PC wealth increases by +10%/level after level 40, but it's a fairly safe assumption given that:

1) the level 39>40 increase is +10.6%

2) NPCs after level 30 are stated to increase by about +10%/level

3) epic treasure increases by about +10%/level (ELH p.122, sidebar)

Made a thread to discuss this, and also partially cuz I'm tired of redoing my Epic WBL spreadsheets every time I'm screwing around with some lvl 100 theorycrafting.

[Spore]

My reaction was "Level 64? Meh this is silly."

Yes. Keep in mind, I kinda have a background in maths (even just the one that I flunked out), but every time such an outlier is seen, it reminds me of how utterly confusing and unintuitive our counting system becomes beyond a certain point. For the purpose at hand, level 64 could've easily been level "one bazillion" and still held the same significance to your usual game. The attribute being called "stupendously high".

His existence would not fit in any setting, nor would his spellcasting do nothing short of warping the entire setting around his actions if he were to be dumped into one. Anything below the Lady of Pain's power level of "no, u" is victim to his whims, so why even get statistics involved at all? Sure, some sufficiently cheesey 20th level build has a feasibly high chance at instagibbing him.

He ceases to fail at an optimisation level, he does not work in any fictional setting, so his power is more easily encapsulated by the "statblock" of the Lady of Pain which just reads: "you loose." Now wake me again, when you find a wizard whose power is truly mathematical. Is it possible to build a character that can adapt his power so that he is always exactly powerful enough for his tasks? A build that has to use variables in his very sheet? Stuff like "he is level x+1 where x is the enemy's level". But that feels like just a slightly enchanted/templated ice assassin spell, right?

[Calthropstu]

Shooting a lvl 64 wizard out of a canon sounds either absurdly stupid or absurdly awesome. Quite possibly both.

[Telok]

Shooting a lvl 64 wizard out of a canon sounds either absurdly stupid or absurdly awesome. Quite possibly both.

A game where level 64 wizards are ammo. I kinda want to see that.

[AvatarVecna]

A game where level 64 wizards are ammo. I kinda want to see that.

See I assumed the joke was about violently ejecting epic wizards from the story. Although yeah, wizard-bullets also sounds stupid fun.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

The wizard shapechanges into a landshark, then fires himself from said cannon.

Bulette bullet!

Combine with control weather for a landsharknado.

[Quertus]

I'm pretty sure none of those gain power directly from their superiors (or in the politician's case, ^%&*%).

They all do. Be that power rank or privilege or wealth, they all get power from their "superiors".


A game where level 64 wizards are ammo. I kinda want to see that.


See I assumed the joke was about violently ejecting epic wizards from the story. Although yeah, wizard-bullets also sounds stupid fun.

Back in earlier editions, I had a character who made Huptzeen (magical casting constructs) in the form of arrows. So… been there, done that? And "Arcane Archer" tricks, several decades before the 3e prestige class was published.

[Khedrac]

Shooting a lvl 64 wizard out of a canon sounds either absurdly stupid or absurdly awesome. Quite possibly both.

Actually all that does is eject them from what is considered standard and official.

You could try "shooting them out of some canons" but I think that would be removing them from the chapter of a RL religious organisation by means of a gun.

"Cannon" (plural "cannon") is the one where shooting them out of it could be fun!

That said, given that "canon" and "cannon" and homophones, I agree that "Shooting a lvl 64 wizard out of a canon sounds either absurdly stupid or absurdly awesome."

[Bohandas]

CRPGs take less time, than RL sessions. But yes, it counts.
Albeit not the correct edition.
If you wish to play epic with 3e with a CRPG, I recommend NWN with Startovarious' Player Resource Consortium.

I prefer Temple of Elemental Evil with the Co8 and Temple+ mods

[Calthropstu]

Actually all that does is eject them from what is considered standard and official.

You could try "shooting them out of some canons" but I think that would be removing them from the chapter of a RL religious organisation by means of a gun.

"Cannon" (plural "cannon") is the one where shooting them out of it could be fun!

That said, given that "canon" and "cannon" and homophones, I agree that "Shooting a lvl 64 wizard out of a canon sounds either absurdly stupid or absurdly awesome."

Glad someone caught that. When I wrote it, I thought it might just be chalked up to a misunderstanding of the word canon. As someone who enjoys making both lowbrow and high brow puns, it's nice when someone catches the triple pun effort.

[bundlesandflows]

Per the observation that the art was probably misplaced, as the individual depicted appears to be a Pelorian cleric and not a wizard (though the lightning-from-fingers thing is certainly appropriating wizardly culture), I've looked through the chapter for potential depictions of this mysterious literally-badder-than-deities 64th-level wizard.

Alas that Canabulum uses male pronouns, because the closest depiction I could find of an epic wizard casting hellball doesn't quite fit that mold.


https://i.imgur.com/jKQ51lr.png

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Alas that Canabulum uses male pronouns, because the closest depiction I could find of an epic wizard casting hellball doesn't quite fit that mold.


https://i.imgur.com/jKQ51lr.pngYou can be whatever you want when you grow up to be a level 64 wizard.

[Bohandas]

Which makes me wonder. What happens when a cleric becomes more powerful than his god?

Not like that's hard, either. Canon god builds are crap.

They're crap, but not because of being underpowered. They're crap because many gods don't have the proper resources to regulate their portfolio, despite generally being stupidly OP. They all have at least three 9th level spells that they can spam at will, and almost all of them have the Alter Reality ability which renders almost every other ability in the game redundant

[bundlesandflows]

You can be whatever you want when you grow up to be a level 64 wizard.

True.

Sadly not so much when I'm a level 64 fighter. There are depictions of epic mundanes and they're indistinguishable from your average city supplement character art.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

True.

Sadly not so much when I'm a level 64 fighter."If you wanted to be a disappointment, you could at least have become a lawyer."

[icefractal]

True.

Sadly not so much when I'm a level 64 fighter. There are depictions of epic mundanes and they're indistinguishable from your average city supplement character art.Union is a pretty bad offender. If you become the greatest warrior the world has known, beyond mortal limits ... you can work as a town guard in this place. And not like some kind of ultimate guardian of order, just a regular town guard. If you told me the guy in that picture was level 5, I'd have no reason to doubt it.

[Max Caysey]

Behold, from page 90 of the Epic Level Handbook: Canabulum the 64th-level wizard, depicted making the dubious decision to develop the epic spell hellball.

Sure there are higher-CR creatures from the same questionable handbook, but this right here is an honest-to-goodness standard player race character who just went straight wizard for 64 levels, which by Wizards of the Coast standards may as well be optimized, considering most high-level 3rd edition mages like to waste levels by dipping fighter or rogue.

So is this it? The strongest standard player race NPC ever published by Wizards?

Edit. His artwork:


https://i.imgur.com/vW2H2u6.png

Ioulaum, who is level 41 (Wiz 31, 5 Arch Mage, 5 Netherese Arcanist) Elder Brain Lich is probably still stronger! Or maybe the Terraseer, a level 35 (30 Wis, 5 arch mage) Sarrukh Lich... pretty OP too!

[Eldan]

I mean, Sarrukhs are pretty much unbeatably strong when played well anyway.

[redking]

Behold, from page 90 of the Epic Level Handbook: Canabulum the 64th-level wizard, depicted making the dubious decision to develop the epic spell hellball.

I looked it up and can't find any level information for Canabulum.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Edit. His artwork:


https://i.imgur.com/vW2H2u6.pngYou know, that could just be a light spell. Yeah, a cantrip. He could be level 1, for all we know.

[legomaster00156]

"Behold, my magnificent magic power!"
"Dude, that's something any apprentice knows how to cast."

[Thurbane]

I looked it up and can't find any level information for Canabulum.

It's a little buried, but it's there:


As a 64th-level wizard, Canabulum easily overcomes that spell resistance with a caster level check.

[Telonius]

He ceases to fail at an optimisation level, he does not work in any fictional setting, so his power is more easily encapsulated by the "statblock" of the Lady of Pain which just reads: "you loose." Now wake me again, when you find a wizard whose power is truly mathematical. Is it possible to build a character that can adapt his power so that he is always exactly powerful enough for his tasks? A build that has to use variables in his very sheet? Stuff like "he is level x+1 where x is the enemy's level". But that feels like just a slightly enchanted/templated ice assassin spell, right?

Tried posting this earlier, but it was eaten by a 500 error. Anyway, an Aleax is probably the closest thing you'll find to this. It's not "level plus one," but "creature plus extras." They're created by deities to send after people who annoy them / ignore alignment stuff. (Found in BoED).

If you want to make it even more math-themed, have an Aleax of a Geometer/Fatespinner (geometry and probability).