Hollow ones are they balanced?

[Dankus Memakus]

I was watching some videos of the wildmount book and saw the new template for the hallow one. Now the player in me is really excited that we have a playable undead option but the DM in me sees a bundle of benefits and no drawbacks which is a bit concerning. After looking over it again it seems like it can make a character really really durable and I worry that it's an absolute mess if layered on any other durable race like hill dwarf or half orc. However, this is my gut instinct and I've never really seen a boon like this before so maybe I'm wrong? What do you guys think.

[stoutstien]

I don't have the book yet but if it does change your creature type 2
To undead there's a whole bunch of spells that will no longer work on you which might be a big deal.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

I don't have the book yet but if it does change your creature type 2
To undead there's a whole bunch of spells that will no longer work on you which might be a big deal.

But oath breakers and necromancers may become your biggest fear.
Same with turn undead and divine smite.

[Dankus Memakus]

But oath breakers and necromancers may become your biggest fear.
Same with turn undead and divine smite.

I see, well that's an interesting drawback. I forgot about smite

[ProsecutorGodot]

It specifically does not change your creature type, instead you register as undead for spells and effects that detect undead.

Short answer: It's in every way an upgrade to your existing race, there are no downsides so obviously it's not balanced.

Long Answer: Becoming a Hollow One is not a player option by default, but something that your DM allows you to pick. The benefits are fairly minor, although Cling to Life gives you a 25% to regain 1 hit point during death saves as opposed to the regular 5% chance and Unsettling Presence gives automatic disadvantage to the next saving throw a creature within 15ft of you makes once per long rest, which if used properly is probably pretty useful.

To determine whether or not it's "balanced" we can compare it to the other Supernatural Gifts available in the DMG, since it's labeled as one:
Blessing of Health: Con+2, Con Max 22
Blessing of Protection: +1 AC
Blessing of Magic Resistance: Advantage on saves against magic
Blessing of Understanding: Wis+2, Wis Max 22
Blessing of Valhalla: Silver Horn of Valhalla effect every 7 days
Blessing of Weapon Enhancement: Any one nonmagical weapon becomes a +1 weapon while you wield it
Blessing of Wound Closure: Periapt of Wound Closure

In my opinion, Hollow One is in the bottom half of these blessings, Blessing of Weapon Enhancement being the only undeniably "worse" option. There are also "Charms" which are minor supernatural gifts that mimic the effects of spells or magic items for a limited duration or amount of uses. It's generally better than those since the effects are permanent or not limited in use outside of resting.

So long answer, it's pretty balanced compared to the other Supernatural Blessings, which tend to have effects that mimic or are better than rare/very rare magic items. It may even be a bit weak as far as Supernatural Gifts are concerned.

[Arkhios]

But oath breakers and necromancers may become your biggest fear.
Same with turn undead and divine smite.


I see, well that's an interesting drawback. I forgot about smite

For that to be a real problem you would have to play against other player characters, which is highly unlikely.

[MaxWilson]

It specifically does not change your creature type, instead you register as undead for spells and effects that detect undead.

Short answer: It's in every way an upgrade to your existing race, there are no downsides so obviously it's not balanced.

Long Answer: Becoming a Hollow One is not a player option by default, but something that your DM allows you to pick. The benefits are fairly minor, although Cling to Life gives you a 25% to regain 1 hit point during death saves as opposed to the regular 5% chance and Unsettling Presence gives automatic disadvantage to the next saving throw a creature within 15ft of you makes once per long rest, which if used properly is probably pretty useful.

To determine whether or not it's "balanced" we can compare it to the other Supernatural Gifts available in the DMG, since it's labeled as one:
Blessing of Health: Con+2, Con Max 22
Blessing of Protection: +1 AC
Blessing of Magic Resistance: Advantage on saves against magic
Blessing of Understanding: Wis+2, Wis Max 22
Blessing of Valhalla: Silver Horn of Valhalla effect every 7 days
Blessing of Weapon Enhancement: Any one nonmagical weapon becomes a +1 weapon while you wield it
Blessing of Wound Closure: Periapt of Wound Closure

In my opinion, Hollow One is in the bottom half of these blessings, Blessing of Weapon Enhancement being the only undeniably "worse" option.

Blessing of Weapon Enhancement is not undeniably worse than Blessing of Wound Closure. Is that a typo on your part?

Blessing of Weapon Enhancement is arguably one of the better blessings, though of course it's campaign-dependent--in a low-magic world, being able to penetrate weapon resistance/immunity without relying on anyone's concentration can be a big deal. And it works well for switch-hitters.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Blessing of Weapon Enhancement is not undeniably worse than Blessing of Wound Closure. Is that a typo on your part?

Blessing of Weapon Enhancement is arguably one of the better blessings, though of course it's campaign-dependent--in a low-magic world, being able to penetrate weapon resistance/immunity without relying on anyone's concentration can be a big deal. And it works well for switch-hitters.

Maybe I value a non attuned Periapt of Wound Closure a bit higher than a single +1 Weapon, definitely not the worst option in a low magic world but I still wouldn't say it's in the top half of blessings.

[MaxWilson]

Maybe I value a non attuned Periapt of Wound Closure a bit higher than a single +1 Weapon, definitely not the worst option in a low magic world but I still wouldn't say it's in the top half of blessings.

We probably also have different opinions how just how valuable +1 to Wisdom saves is for non-druids/non-clerics. 95% of the time it's irrelevant.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

For that to be a real problem you would have to play against other player characters, which is highly unlikely.

The DMG have rules for creating NPCs with class levels.
It is an option.

Also in some groups PvP is an option.

And you can't ignore the possibility of friendly fire.

[ProsecutorGodot]

We probably also have different opinions how just how valuable +1 to Wisdom saves is for non-druids/non-clerics. 95% of the time it's irrelevant.

That wasn't one I'd have put in the half either, Con+, Magic Resistance and +AC are all for sure better options.

[MaxWilson]

The DMG have rules for creating NPCs with class levels.
It is an option.

Also in some groups PvP is an option.

And you can't ignore the possibility of friendly fire.

You're not wrong. But we've also established upthread that you don't actually change your actual creature type anyway, and even if you did it would still be an overall advantage considering how many nasty effects (e.g. Hold Person, Gloomweaver and Soul Monger penalties to movement and saves) apply only to humanoids and sometimes beasts.

[Arkhios]

The DMG have rules for creating NPCs with class levels.
It is an option.

Also in some groups PvP is an option.

And you can't ignore the possibility of friendly fire.

First of all, I'm yet to play in a group whose DM used those rules in DMG to create NPC's with class levels in 5th edition. I tried it once, and decided it's not worth the trouble.

Secondly, I'm happy the group I play with don't fancy PvP. I prefer to keep my PvP in videogames.

Thirdly, while I'm not ignoring the possibility of friendly fire with AoE, making an attack with a Divine Smite against an ally "accidentally" is still highly unlikely; most likely an intentional move, and as such very questionable in regards to motives.

Granted, especially in the current global situation with COVID-19 wreaking havoc, I'll probably have zero chances to play ever again.

[MaxWilson]

First of all, I'm yet to play in a group whose DM used those rules in DMG to create NPC's with class levels in 5th edition. I tried it once, and decided it's not worth the trouble.

I do it frequently, and it's no trouble at all. If I declare that the king has three elite bodyguards who are all 3rd level Cavaliers with Dueling style, Dex 16 and Con 12, that's actually simpler than using an NPC stat block out of Volo's or something because then I don't have to look anything up. What's the bodyguard's Dex save? I know that by heart, it's +3, and they do 1d8+5 with their rapiers.

Just as I allow players to leave some wildcards on their character sheets, even so these NPCs would have wildcards. What languages do they know? Answer: doesn't matter for now. What are their backgrounds? Likewise, doesn't matter. If we ever zoom in one one of the bodyguards and decide that he's actually a failed Entertainer with Performance proficiency and an widowed sister, I can start applying those traits at that point.

This is exactly the same procedure I use to get PCs up and running quickly for new players. You want to play a wizard but don't want to spend 6 hours learning the PHB spell list? Okay, you're a wizard with two spells, Magic Missile and Sleep. We'll figure the rest out later, for now let's play. That is only a slight exaggeration.

Since I know the rules for character classes much better than I know any individual monster stat block, using classes for NPCs tends to simplify the game. "He's a 7th level Rogue so he's got Uncanny Dodge." Etc.