Witch (DMG)?

[Sir_Chivalry]

Has any had any experience playing the Witch from pg 175 of the Dungeon Master's Guide? It's essentially a variant Sorcerer but as it's not listed on the srd I'd assume posting the specifics of the class word for word is not OGL.

It essentially trades out certain spells on the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list for Druid spells (and perhaps some bard I haven't completely gone over it with a fine tooth comb)

I was considering using it for a Mage of the Arcane Order build for a future game but I was wondering if it was more trouble than it's worth and I should stick to other more reliable spontaneous options like Warmage/Beguiler/Dread Necromancer if I'm going to be a non-wizard?

Or would it be better to forget the class exists and beg my DM to backport the Witch class over from Pathfinder?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

It suffers from the same issues as Adept, in that it only has core spells on its class spell list. Expand the spell list from the additional books that have been printed over the years, and it's playable. Otherwise just forget it exists, you can get the same flavor with a Wizard or Sorcerer and one of the various methods of gaining access to a domain's spells.

[Piggy Knowles]

I played a witch in my first fully 3.5 campaigns. It's worth noting that my DM ruled that it could spontaneously cast any spell off of its spell list as a warmage or beguiler.

The campaign only got up to level 9 or so, but the character was pretty effective in those early levels. I mostly focused on enchantment spells and shapeshifting, which I could have honestly done just fine as a regular sorcerer (or later a beguiler, though that class hadn't come out yet), but it was nice having the flexibility of fixed list casting on a spontaneous chassis, and the spells were flavorful and fun. Levels 1-3 I basically just spammed sleep, silent image and charm person and helped with healing when necessary. Levels 4-7 were a bit less useful, though alter self was nice, especially on a Cha-based caster who could bluff really well. Once I hit level 8 I basically broke the game unintentionally by overusing polymorph, and the campaign ended not long after that.

Again, nothing that any typical sorcerer couldn't have done (minus the secondary healer bit, which was really not essential to the character), but as someone who hadn't played since messing around with 3.0 in college, it was nice having a curated spell list, and the options it gives you definitely aren't bad. Its biggest flaw is that, as a class, it's largely unnecessary.

[ngilop]

Like piggy said, its basically a redundant class.

Give it about 5 or 6 class abilities spread over the 20 levels to differentiate it from a expanded list sorcerer and I think it fits nicely.

I disagree with Biffoniacus with regards to somehow being core only makes the list bad, as the core list has the (in my opinion) most game breaking spells in it, which the DMG Witch has (shapechange I am looking at you as an example)

[Sir_Chivalry]

Well that certainly is a good argument though, all the other classes got more spells to play with, and though a lot of them don't surpass the power of polymorph or the like, there's still the problem of having to go through the N number of spells and see if they apply to the principal of the Witch. Which is a pain since there are way too many spells.

I might just either use the Witch (PF) or the Beguiler in that case as you're getting most of the same stuff. Or Sorcerer with a domain as mentioned above.

[Telonius]

Like piggy said, its basically a redundant class.

Give it about 5 or 6 class abilities spread over the 20 levels to differentiate it from a expanded list sorcerer and I think it fits nicely.

I disagree with Biffoniacus with regards to somehow being core only makes the list bad, as the core list has the (in my opinion) most game breaking spells in it, which the DMG Witch has (shapechange I am looking at you as an example)

It probably has to have Shapechange. Otherwise, it would be hard to re-enact the Merlin versus Madam Mim duel. As far as I'm concerned, any class that calls itself a witch needs to be able to do that. :smallbiggrin:

[Thurbane]

I played a witch in my first fully 3.5 campaigns. It's worth noting that my DM ruled that it could spontaneously cast any spell off of its spell list as a warmage or beguiler.

Yep, that's exactly how I house-ruled it in one of my campaigns: still, no one chose to play one.

I think adding that ruling makes the class slightly less gimped when compared to a sorcerer.

[Troacctid]

All the best witch spells are also sorcerer spells, so there's not a whole lot of reason to use it.

If we're talking sorcerer spell list variants, there's one in OA that lets you use the wu jen spell list, which is a lot more interesting than witch, IMO.

[Efrate]

I have had one in a game I ran. It was a less good sorcerer/beguiler. I would just port the pf witch wholesale. Keep all the weird pathfinder spells and use the 3.5 ones when they are similar or judge it spell by spell. That plus hexes and a good patron makes a very flavorful character. Who doesnt want smell children as an ability?

[Thurbane]

If we're talking sorcerer spell list variants, there's one in OA that lets you use the wu jen spell list, which is a lot more interesting than witch, IMO.

Very interesting, I was unaware of that previously! :smallsmile:


Game Rule Information: As described in the Player's Handbook. Sorcerers can use either the wizard/sorcerer spell list from the Player's Handbook or the wu jen spell list in Chapter 7.

[Sir_Chivalry]

I have had one in a game I ran. It was a less good sorcerer/beguiler. I would just port the pf witch wholesale. Keep all the weird pathfinder spells and use the 3.5 ones when they are similar or judge it spell by spell. That plus hexes and a good patron makes a very flavorful character. Who doesnt want smell children as an ability?

That's probably what I'd go with if I don't go beguiler or warmage. Class features are fun!

[Powerdork]

I disagree with Biffoniacus with regards to somehow being core only makes the list bad, as the core list has the (in my opinion) most game breaking spells in it, which the DMG Witch has (shapechange I am looking at you as an example)

Okay, in terms of game balance it still smashes things to pieces, but what about fun and flavourful? Stuff like clothier's closet, the spell to let someone buy clothes instantly?