CR for Pixie with class levels?

[danielxcutter]

If anyone here still remembers Our Little Adventure (which sadly appears to be dead), they might remember the pixie queen with something like 14 levels in Wizard.

That kind of thing makes me wonder what the CR should be for an NPC like her. I’m going with the “creatures with one RHD replace it with their class levels” (house?)rule, by the way.

I think level +3 could work, so the pixie queen I mentioned earlier , for example, would be about CR 17. With the HD replacement I don’t think just adding the levels right onto the CR would be right. Of course, pixies do have a very large number of benefits for a caster-type, but since they don’t have a Constitution bonus I think it evens out, more or less. I’d love to hear what you guys think, though; that’s why I made this thread after all!

Oh yeah, the “CR = levels +3” is for pixies without the Irresistible Dance ability. Just in case you wanted to mention that.

[HouseRules]

creatures with one RHD replace it with their class levels
This applies to all humanoid.
There are places where it says both ways with non-humanoids.

Since a Pixie is not Humanoid, the DM gets to choose if the 1 or less HD is replaced or not.
For Humanoids, 1 or less HD would get replaced.

Usually, if the creature is non-humanoid, then NPC would keep their RHD while PC would have it replaced.
If the creature is humanoid, by RAW the 1 or less RHD is replaced with Class HD.

ECL and CR are different.
Since the character has 1 HD, the first level is non-associative, and does not increase CR.
Every level after that becomes associative (unless they are NPC levels which always counts as non-associative).

LA+4 (without Irresistible Dance) and LA+6 (with Irresistible Dance) does not directly count towards CR.

Base CR is 4 (without Irresistible Dance) and 5 (with Irresistible Dance).

The example Pixel with Wizard 14 is 13 beyond the base
so (without Irresistible Dance) 13 + 4 = 17 CR; 14 + 4 = 18 ECL.
so (with Irresistible Dance) 13 + 5 = 18 CR; 14 + 6 = 20 ECL.

[danielxcutter]

Actually, I checked and yeah, it explicitly says pixie PCs replace their RHD with their first class level. So... “level + 3” for the CR of pixies without Irresistible Dance?

[Thurbane]

Actually, I checked and yeah, it explicitly says pixie PCs replace their RHD with their first class level. So... “level + 3” for the CR of pixies without Irresistible Dance?

I had a quick search to see if I can find any official articles or modules for a stat block for a Pixie with class levels, and found these two (with the usual disclaimer that stat blocks are never a great example of RAW):

Road To Oblivion (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/oa/20030614a)

Renault: Male pixie Fighter 2; CR 6 (has Irresistible Dance)
Claret: Male pixie Bard 2; CR 6 (without Irresistible Dance)

So unfortunately those are not consistent enough to draw from, since the second Pixie should be one CR less.

[Chainguy]

I had a quick search to see if I can find any official articles or modules for a stat block for a Pixie with class levels, and found these two (with the usual disclaimer that stat blocks are never a great example of RAW):

Road To Oblivion (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/oa/20030614a)

Renault: Male pixie Fighter 2; CR 6 (has Irresistible Dance)
Claret: Male pixie Bard 2; CR 6 (without Irresistible Dance)

So unfortunately those are not consistent enough to draw from, since the second Pixie should be one CR less.

I think this is from the MMI guideline on "Advanced monster challenge rating" where associated class level counts 1:1 while non-associated class levels are 2:1 (up to "added CR == RHD").

Fighter would be a non-associated class for the Pixie while Bard is associated, and looking at the stat boosts of the race it kinda makes sense!

[danielxcutter]

Oh hey Road of Oblivion! I read that module once, and the premise was pretty nice, to be honest. Pretty sure that if “non-associated” levels were used the Bard should be a lot higher CR, though.

Also, would it be reasonable for a DM to go with my ruling? “Reasonable” is a rather flexible term, but I don’t think this is anywhere the “bending the CR close to breaking point”.

[Buufreak]

Oh hey Road of Oblivion! I read that module once, and the premise was pretty nice, to be honest. Pretty sure that if “non-associated” levels were used the Bard should be a lot higher CR, though.



Associated levels work at a 1 to 1 and a 2 to 1 level. The example above uses a fighter 2 and bard 2. What about that makes you think the cr should be any higher than 1 point?

[danielxcutter]

Associated levels work at a 1 to 1 and a 2 to 1 level. The example above uses a fighter 2 and bard 2. What about that makes you think the cr should be any higher than 1 point?

“CR increase for non associated classes is 1/2 level” only applies until class levels exceed RHD.

[Buufreak]

Where exactly is that citation? I think you have it backwards.

[Sir_Chivalry]

Where exactly is that citation? I think you have it backwards.

"Nonassociated Class Levels
If you add a class level that doesn’t directly play to a creature’s strength the class level is considered nonassociated, and things get a little more complicated. Adding a nonassociated class level to a monster increases its CR by ½ per level until one of its nonassociated class levels equals its original Hit Dice. At that point, each additional level of the same class or a similar one is considered associated and increases the monster’s CR by 1.

Levels in NPC classes are always treated as nonassociated."
-From the SRD, but the official text is on page 294 of the Monster Manual

[HouseRules]

"Nonassociated Class Levels
If you add a class level that doesn’t directly play to a creature’s strength the class level is considered nonassociated, and things get a little more complicated. Adding a nonassociated class level to a monster increases its CR by ½ per level until one of its nonassociated class levels equals its original Hit Dice. At that point, each additional level of the same class or a similar one is considered associated and increases the monster’s CR by 1.

Levels in NPC classes are always treated as nonassociated."
-From the SRD, but the official text is on page 294 of the Monster Manual

All examples (RAW published monsters) practically shows roundup to nearest even instead of exact number of RHD.
That's because fraction challenge rating above 1 doesn't exist.

Integer Challenge Rating and Fractional Challenge Rating
CR 0 = CR 3/4 = CR 2/3
CR -1 = CR 1/2
CR -2 = CR 3/8 = CR 1/3
CR -3 = CR 1/4
CR -4 = CR 3/16 = CR 1/6
CR -5 = CR 1/8
CR -6 = CR 3/32 = CR 1/10 = CR 1/12

[Thurbane]

The way associated class level is supposed to work is as follows:

An Ogre Barbarian 4 (associated class) would have a CR of 7 (3 + 4).

An Ogre Wizard 4 (non-associated class) would have a CR of 4 (3 + 2). [each wizard level counts as a 1/2 CR increase]

An Ogre Barbarian 8 (associated class) would have a CR of 11 (3 + 8).

An Ogre Wizard 8 (non-associated class) would have a CR of 9 (3 + 2 + 4). [each wizard level counts as a 1/2 CR increase until they exceed RHD, then they count as 1 CR increase per level]

[danielxcutter]

So... yeah, they probably messed up the CR. Sometimes I wonder if WotC even cared... :smallsigh: