Iconic Sword and Shield Paladin

[Wonton64]

I love the imagery of the Paladin wielding a weapon and shield, but 3.5e doesn't seem to lend itself to this combat style that well. I know there are some feats that can help with it, but the combat feat chains seem too feat intensive for a non-fighter build. Is there a way to build an effective melee Cleric/Paladin that uses this style?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Crusader in ToB actually works well with sword-and-board, and you can multiclass Cleric and go into Ruby Knight Vindicator in that same book. Crusader gets combat maneuvers that don't care if your weapon is one or two handed, and even a few that require them to be holding a shield to use.

[Wonton64]

Crusader in ToB actually works well with sword-and-board, and you can multiclass Cleric and go into Ruby Knight Vindicator in that same book. Crusader gets combat maneuvers that don't care if your weapon is one or two handed, and even a few that require them to be holding a shield to use.

That's a good idea. My only issue with that is, despite how powerful Ruby Knight Vindicator looks, having only one real option for prestige class makes me sad.

[AnimeTheCat]

this isn't optimal, but I enjoy playing it and it is able to be useful in most combat situations. I usually will make a light weapon as my "weapon" and a heavy shield, then go with two weapon fighting feats. Like you said, it's definitely more effective on a fighter, but you don't need much to at least put your shield to use and gain better benefit from it. Shield Specialization (heavy), Shield Ward, Improved Shield Bash, Two Weapon Fighting. If you want to sink another feat, pick up Oversized Two Weapon Fighting and use a Longsword instead of a shortsword. If you want to go even further, pick up the rest of the Two Weapon Fighting feats. I said them in the order that I would take them starting at level 1, because I find that getting that extra +1 AC and +3 Touch AC (and vs various combat maneuvers) is very useful in the first 6-9 levels of the game. On a non Human, that's your 1, 3, 6, and 9 level feats, and sets you up to use your shield for more than just blocking.

If you don't want to attack with your shield, I still recommend picking up shield ward and shield specialization, as your Touch AC is usually going to be quite low on a Paladin. Since you're charisma will likely be pretty decent, try getting a wand chamber in your shield, get a wand of Greater Magic Weapon at the highest caster level you can, raise your UMD skill as much as possible, and get a +1 Defending weapon. Cast GMW and shift all that over to your AC for more "tankyness". If you're a human, you can get +3 to your touch AC from level 1 and be very difficult to hit. If you play a strongheart halfling, same but better.

When I've played Paladins, I haven't focused too hard on dealing damage, preferring to be a mobile roadblock full of as many HP as much as possible. Having innate ways to heal and restore yourself releases you from being a burden on your cleric. When the time comes that you NEED to deal damage, I suggest summoning your Mount and lance charging things. If you just put your strength at 10, you'll still get passable damage from a lance charge and if you pick up mounted combat, ride-by-attack, and spirited charge you'll be ok in most cases. Your mount gives you versatility as well, as you can pick one up with innate flight and remove the need for a party member to grant you that ability.

All in all, I don't see Paladins as primary damage dealers, rather they are well rounded characters that can do many different things, just none of them exceedingly well. Sticking to your guns and going in deep with the defenses is one of my preferred ways to paladin.

EDIT: If you party plays with flaws, you can be two weapon fighting with your weapon and shield by level 3, or level 1 if you want to wait to boost your AC (which I do recommend. That shield bonus to AC and combat maneuvers is really handy). Also forgot to mention the Combat Focus feats, which require Wisdom. ON usual fighter types, they're not great because of the Wis requirement, but on a paladin, you'll likely be shooting for a 14+ wisdom anyway. These are useful as they can give you a variety of different benefits such as fast healing, a very limited blindsight (5 ft), and a relatively large bonus against combat maneuvers.

[Gruftzwerg]

Crusader in ToB actually works well with sword-and-board, and you can multiclass Cleric and go into Ruby Knight Vindicator in that same book. Crusader gets combat maneuvers that don't care if your weapon is one or two handed, and even a few that require them to be holding a shield to use.

I second this. The Crusader can also get healing abilities. (Strike with 1d6 +1/Initiatorlvl and aura where you heal per enemy hit 2hp to you or an ally. both starting @lvl1)

Further, in ToB there is a feat called Stone Power iirc. It's works similar to Power Attack, you trade chance to hit for double the amount of temporary HP (max -5 to hit > +10 temp HP). Not stackable and only last till the beginning of your next turn, but still nice.

At lvl 3 get Draconic Aura: Vigor (feat) heals you and nearby allies for 1hp/turn up to half max hp. the heal scales up to +5hp/turn @lvl20

And last, is Animated Shield later an option? You could than use a 2h again when you can effort the shield.

[tyckspoon]

I love the imagery of the Paladin wielding a weapon and shield, but 3.5e doesn't seem to lend itself to this combat style that well. I know there are some feats that can help with it, but the combat feat chains seem too feat intensive for a non-fighter build. Is there a way to build an effective melee Cleric/Paladin that uses this style?

There are enough feats that give support to various things to make this work; question is how many you are willing to burn to do it. Things to look into:

Agile Shield Fighter: Lets you two-weapon fight with a shield, and over-writes the normal penalties with just -2/-2. Any shield, any weapon, no requirement to have high Dex. Does require Improved Shield Bash and Shield Specialization as pre-reqs, tho, so you're already 3 feats in to do it.. but if you want to hit stuff with sword and shield, this is how to do it. Whack things with an oversized bastard sword and a spiked bashing heavy shield, Agile Shield Fighter makes it possible. A Fighter dip is probably a good plan if you want to get this. (Is not actually Two Weapon Fighting and does not qualify you for other TWF-related feats.)

Divine Might: Requires Power Attack. Free action, spend a Turn/Rebuke, get Charisma to damage.. for the whole round. You're using single-handed weapons, which means you don't get the easy damage increases from extra Strength-to-damage and increased Power Attack returns. This can help make up for it with a resource that otherwise doesn't do very much for Paladins.

Divine Shield: Standard action activation, but lasts for half your character level. Add Cha to your shield's AC bonus. Pretty neat if you also have the feats to use your shield bonus to other things like Reflex saves or Touch AC.

Battle Blessing: Speeds up your spells. Not actually specifically related to the sword-and-board archetype, but this is excellent for fixing your action economy - you have access to a lot of good buff spells that are often reduced in usefulness because it's not worth spending a whole in-combat turn to cast them, now you can use them and proceed with delivering righteous blows upon the dark forces.

Gauntlets of Heartfelt Blows: Cha to damage again for a steal (only 12k GP, Dragon Compendium.) It's Fire type, so it doesn't take much to block it unless you happen to be using a super CHA-stack race, but still worth picking up.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

That's a good idea. My only issue with that is, despite how powerful Ruby Knight Vindicator looks, having only one real option for prestige class makes me sad.

Tome of Battle as a whole plays well with multiclassing, because other class levels still count halfway towards qualifying for higher level maneuvers and stances; in particular, there's a line that basically says any prestige class fully progresses your initiator level unless it says otherwise (though there is a large quantity of debate as to whether this applies to prestige classes outside of ToB, I personally think it does). Ruby Knight Vindicator is great (and you can actually qualify with Paladin/Crusader instead of Cleric/Crusader if you want), but most martial prestige classes will work well.

Devoted Defender (Sword & Fist pg 13) in particular is probably worth a look for a defensive character. Each of the first three levels gives you a new trick for defending another character (chosen at the start of each combat). The main problem of playing a defensive character is that there's little incentive to attack you instead of the glass cannons you're protecting; Devoted Defender solves this by letting you switch places with an ally under attack, punish foes who attack them, and deflect enemy attacks against them, all without taking your swift or immediate action (or even using up your attacks of opportunity), leaving those for your Crusader boosts/counters or casting (e.g. Paladin w/ Battle Blessing).

[T.G. Oskar]

this isn't optimal, but I enjoy playing it and it is able to be useful in most combat situations. I usually will make a light weapon as my "weapon" and a heavy shield, then go with two weapon fighting feats. Like you said, it's definitely more effective on a fighter, but you don't need much to at least put your shield to use and gain better benefit from it. Shield Specialization (heavy), Shield Ward, Improved Shield Bash, Two Weapon Fighting. If you want to sink another feat, pick up Oversized Two Weapon Fighting and use a Longsword instead of a shortsword. If you want to go even further, pick up the rest of the Two Weapon Fighting feats. I said them in the order that I would take them starting at level 1, because I find that getting that extra +1 AC and +3 Touch AC (and vs various combat maneuvers) is very useful in the first 6-9 levels of the game. On a non Human, that's your 1, 3, 6, and 9 level feats, and sets you up to use your shield for more than just blocking.

I find tyckspoon's recommendation a lot easier to follow. He explains it succinctly:


There are enough feats that give support to various things to make this work; question is how many you are willing to burn to do it. Things to look into:

Agile Shield Fighter: Lets you two-weapon fight with a shield, and over-writes the normal penalties with just -2/-2. Any shield, any weapon, no requirement to have high Dex. Does require Improved Shield Bash and Shield Specialization as pre-reqs, tho, so you're already 3 feats in to do it.. but if you want to hit stuff with sword and shield, this is how to do it. Whack things with an oversized bastard sword and a spiked bashing heavy shield, Agile Shield Fighter makes it possible. A Fighter dip is probably a good plan if you want to get this. (Is not actually Two Weapon Fighting and does not qualify you for other TWF-related feats.)

While TWF does lead to Improved TWF, it also means more feats to spend, which isn't the best idea. The benefit is mostly whether you want to use your shield in a full attack on 1st level (but losing shield bonus until 3rd), 3rd level or 6th level; with ASF, 6th is as earliest as you can get it, and you can still qualify for Shield Ward.

That said: if you're going to use your shield as a weapon, you need to think as someone who can maximize TWF or extra attacks. It's obvious you'll need a Shield of Bashing, since it increases the damage you deal and treats it as a magical weapon. From there, you need to find out items that boost the damage you deal with any weapon, and focus on spells that buff your damage; Prayer and Divine Favor are good choices, as they apply to all attacks you make. And basically have some sort of bard around - From Smite to Song is a nice idea, since it turns Smites into uses of Inspire Courage, and the Harmonious Knight has a fair alternative that turns into a bonus for everyone. (Which means make a variant of A-Game Paladin.)


Also forgot to mention the Combat Focus feats, which require Wisdom. ON usual fighter types, they're not great because of the Wis requirement, but on a paladin, you'll likely be shooting for a 14+ wisdom anyway. These are useful as they can give you a variety of different benefits such as fast healing, a very limited blindsight (5 ft), and a relatively large bonus against combat maneuvers.

These are also cool feats, but they'll have to be taken late. As long as three are taken (levels 12, 15 and 18), you can get the major benefits, and what you want is the fast healing and blindsight anyways.

[AnimeTheCat]

I find tyckspoon's recommendation a lot easier to follow. He explains it succinctly:



While TWF does lead to Improved TWF, it also means more feats to spend, which isn't the best idea. The benefit is mostly whether you want to use your shield in a full attack on 1st level (but losing shield bonus until 3rd), 3rd level or 6th level; with ASF, 6th is as earliest as you can get it, and you can still qualify for Shield Ward.

I mean... Yeah. Agile Shield Fighter is nice, but you'll only ever get that one extra attack. That's not much. Going with two weapon fighting, you keep your options open if you want to pick up an additional attack. I already said that I prefer to favor less direct damage paladins, so that's my personal bias showing.


That said: if you're going to use your shield as a weapon, you need to think as someone who can maximize TWF or extra attacks. It's obvious you'll need a Shield of Bashing, since it increases the damage you deal and treats it as a magical weapon. From there, you need to find out items that boost the damage you deal with any weapon, and focus on spells that buff your damage; Prayer and Divine Favor are good choices, as they apply to all attacks you make. And basically have some sort of bard around - From Smite to Song is a nice idea, since it turns Smites into uses of Inspire Courage, and the Harmonious Knight has a fair alternative that turns into a bonus for everyone. (Which means make a variant of A-Game Paladin.)
I don't really have anything to add. You're right.


These are also cool feats, but they'll have to be taken late. As long as three are taken (levels 12, 15 and 18), you can get the major benefits, and what you want is the fast healing and blindsight anyways.
yeah... they have really stuipd BAB requirements, so they'll be taken late anyway. I have never liked BAB requirements for anything. It level locks non-magical characters until the feats are usually useless to take, but there's not much in the way of Caster Level requirements for many feats (if any?). Eh, that's a gripe for another day.

Something to keep in mind though is that Combat Focus counts as one of those feats to hit the three or more threshold, so if TWF with the shield is not the way someone wants to go, they can just pick up shield specialization, shield ward, combat focus, combat stability, and Combat Vigor all by level 9 as a human or strongheart halfling or with flaws, which gets you +8 vs bullrush, disarm, grapple, overrun, and trip, +4 to will saves, and Fast Healing 4 which is not too shabby. Unfortunately Combat Awareness requires Blind-Fight, so that's a dumb feat tax. Without flaws, you can't really expect to get it before level 15 at which point it's probalby more feasible for you to just pick up a wand or scroll of invisibility purge, see invisibility, or true sight, or just pick up a helmet of true seeing.

[DarkOne-Rob]

All in all, I don't see Paladins as primary damage dealers, rather they are well rounded characters that can do many different things, just none of them exceedingly well. Sticking to your guns and going in deep with the defenses is one of my preferred ways to paladin.
Paladins are excellent in a couple of ways, including dealing fantastic damage to single targets. The class may not be a "primary damage dealer" in the generic sense of mowing down tons of mooks, but nothing ruins a BBEG's day quite as badly as a Paladin that ignores his henchmen, gets into melee with him, Smites Evil, and then wipes the floor with them...and that happens ALOT in both my experience and what I have read from others.

Doing all that with a sword and board is much harder because it is more difficult to put out a ton of damage with a one-handed weapon and shield (more feats needed, higher stats required, more actions required vs use Power Attack...). To the OP's question, I think the answer is that you may need to choose your niche and do it well. I have played a sword-and-board Oradin and enjoyed that. Be a threat when you need to be, be a roadblock other times, and don't die while healing the rest of your team.

[T.G. Oskar]

I mean... Yeah. Agile Shield Fighter is nice, but you'll only ever get that one extra attack. That's not much. Going with two weapon fighting, you keep your options open if you want to pick up an additional attack. I already said that I prefer to favor less direct damage paladins, so that's my personal bias showing.

Well, the problem with TWF is that it forces you to have a high DEX, which is a stat you don't want high. As a Paladin, you want STR/CON/CHA, with a minimum of 14 Wis for your spellcasting. DEX is a stat you'll want at most at 12, since it's enough for that +1 to AC and it's effective on a lot of things. Whether rolling or through point-buy, getting high Strength, high Charisma, a Wisdom close to 13 (you can spend one of your ability score increases on it), a Constitution no lower than 14, AND a Dexterity of 15 or higher is just mindblowing. And then, only for 1 extra attack; as you mentioned, you have the possibility for more, but that implies a higher DEX AND more feats to spend on. Conversely, with Shield Specialization, you get half of the prerequisites for ASF, so it's a very natural progression, and you can top it off with Shield Ward. Even with a non-human, non-Strongheart halfling build, you can get those four feats (Imp. Shield Bash, Shield Spec., ASF, Shield Ward) and top it off with the three Combat Form feats you prefer (Combat Focus is a must, and I like Combat Vigor, but I'm no fan of Combat Stability; I'd rather go for Combat Awareness, but IIRC that requires Blind-Fight) for a pretty decent build that has great Touch AC defenses, blindsight to a limited degree and fast healing. When you add more feats through other means (flaws or Human/Strongheart Halfling, though I'd be wary of the latter because of Small size), you have more flexibility on what to choose.

[Segev]

Is this 3.5 only, or is PF on the table? With PF, two-weapon fighting using your shield as an off-hand weapon can become fairly effective. There's even a spell, blade tutor's spirit (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/b/blade-tutor-s-spirit/), which can offset the admittedly massive to-hit penalties. The large number of attacks goes well with PF's version of Smite Evil.

[Falontani]

Level

Class

Base Attack Bonus

Fort Save

Ref Save

Will Save

Feats

Class Features


1

Holy Warrior Paladin

+1

+2

+0

+0

Serenity

Smite Evil 1/day, Detect Evil, Aura of Good



2

Paladin

+2

+3

+0

+0


Divine Grace



3

Paladin

+3

+3

+1

+1

Improved Shield Bash

Aura of Courage, Divine Health



4

Paladin

+4

+4

+1

+1

Divine Shield(b)

Turn Undead



5

Overwhelming Attack Monk

+4

+6

+3

+3

Power Attack(b), Improved Unarmed Strike(b)

Flurry of Blows, Unarmed Strike



6

Monk

+5

+7

+4

+4

Monastic Training(b), Shield Charge

Evasion



7

Argent Fist

+5

+9

+4

+6


Ascetic Smite, Ki Focus, Stunning Smite



8

Argent Fist

+6

+10

+4

+7


Holy Armor, Ki Strike (Silver)



9

Argent Fist

+7

+10

+5

+7

Improved Bull Rush

Balm of the Silver Flame



10

Argent Fist

+8

+11

+5

+8


Smite Evil 2/day



11

Argent Fist

+8

+11

+5

+8


Wrath of the Silver Flame



12

Argent Fist

+9

+12

+6

+9

Shock Trooper




13

Argent Fist

+10

+12

+6

+9


Ki Strike (Cold Iron)



14

Argent Fist

+11

+13

+6

+10


Mettle



15

Argent Fist

+11

+13

+7

+10

Shield Specialization

Smite Evil 3/day



16

Argent Fist

+12

+14

+7

+11


Embrace of the Silver Flame



17

Paladin

+13

+14

+7

+11


Smite Evil 4/day, Charging Smite



18

Paladin

+14

+15

+8

+12

Agile Shield Fighter

Curse Breaker



19

Broken One Monk

+15

+15

+8

+12


Lay on Hands, Fast Movement



20

Monk

+16

+16

+9

+13


Ki Strike (Magic), Slow Fall (20 ft)






You could forgo unarmed main hand in favor of a Longsword with Whirling Steel Strike. If you are ok with flaws I'd pick up Snap Kick and Stunning Fist with this. If you are okay with a development arc take level 1 and 2 as Barbarian, grab up pounce and Improved Trip, become an Ex Barbarian and get into Paladin. You'll need Knight Training instead of Monastic Training however, so grab some Rage related feat at level 1, when you are about to hit level 3, retrain your rage feat into Knight Training, and take level 3 serenity. The order of feats don't really matter, as long as you have Knight Training or Monastic Training before grabbing your first level of Argent Fist. If you are more wanting to break more DRs, then grab your third and fourth monk level before argent fist, and slot in the feat: Sanctify Ki Strike, although it requires more charisma than I'd suggest for the build.

As it stands this build maxes out wis, then follows it up with str/con. For a more SAD character, slot in Intuitive Attack, and go Wis/Con as your only important stats. Your damage will suffer however.

I personally love Shield Charge -> Improved Trip -> Snap Kick
With Pounce it is: Shield Charge (offhand, or one of your iterative attacks) and then go nuts with your unarmed strikes and Snap Kick

the only skills required are Knowledge (Religion) 4 ranks.

See if your DM will allow you to use your Wisdom Modifier for Divine Shield and Argent Fist stuff. You have a feat that changes all of paladin stuff to be wis mod, so why wouldn't your paladin/monk prestige class also be wisdom mod.

[Elder_Basilisk]

A lot depends upon the power level and wealth level in your game, but in most practical optimization games, a sword and board paladin can be an effective character. (Between battle blessing and lay on hands not being that great anyway, 3.5 makes a full-size board a lot easier than Pathfinder where a heavy shield can arguably keep you from taking advantage of swift action lay on hands and bucklers are a better solution to enable spellcasting and lay on hands).

First, in a standard wealth level game, you don't actually need to spend a ton of feats to make sword and board an effective fighting style. If all you get from the shield is AC, that's OK. At low levels going from a base AC 20 to 22 makes a big difference. And as you get to mid levels, +5 AC from a +3 heavy shield or +6 from a +4 heavy shield is huge. Only at high levels when the two handers are running around with +5 animated shields does it cease to be an advantage.

Likewise, after the initial levels, sword and board damage is adequate, especially when backed up with a few smites and some magic items (armbands of might are especially helpful for making one-handed power attack more efficient. Divine might, divine favor (which is quick with battle blessing), and other sources of static damage (like the aforementioned gloves) will make even a sword and board paladin's single target damage pretty good. (If you have improved unarmed strike, there's a ring of thunderclaps that can give you a 3/day swift action unarmed attack (with 1d8+5 electricity and possibly a shout spell tacked on) apply all those static damage boosts again for some pretty impressive mid level novas as well)

For class, I like two levels of monk and at least a splattering of Pious Templar to get evasion and mettle which, when combined with a paladin's already great saves will make you almost immune to anything that has a save. (Doing so spreads your attributes thin, but I've done it and seen it done successfully on 28 point buy). The monk levels can also give combat reflexes and improved grapple which add to your grapple defense and give you a few more options in combat for when straight damage isn't quite what you want. By high levels, enemy spellcasters may all have freedom of movement or a means of teleporting (but they won't always especially if they are from unmodified published adventures or are monsters and your allies may also be able to negate some grapple defenses--especially teleportation based grapple defenses) but even it will be very useful in the low-mid levels and will still provide a useful option from time to time at high levels.

[AnimeTheCat]

Well, the problem with TWF is that it forces you to have a high DEX, which is a stat you don't want high. As a Paladin, you want STR/CON/CHA, with a minimum of 14 Wis for your spellcasting. DEX is a stat you'll want at most at 12, since it's enough for that +1 to AC and it's effective on a lot of things. Whether rolling or through point-buy, getting high Strength, high Charisma, a Wisdom close to 13 (you can spend one of your ability score increases on it), a Constitution no lower than 14, AND a Dexterity of 15 or higher is just mindblowing. And then, only for 1 extra attack; as you mentioned, you have the possibility for more, but that implies a higher DEX AND more feats to spend on. Conversely, with Shield Specialization, you get half of the prerequisites for ASF, so it's a very natural progression, and you can top it off with Shield Ward. Even with a non-human, non-Strongheart halfling build, you can get those four feats (Imp. Shield Bash, Shield Spec., ASF, Shield Ward) and top it off with the three Combat Form feats you prefer (Combat Focus is a must, and I like Combat Vigor, but I'm no fan of Combat Stability; I'd rather go for Combat Awareness, but IIRC that requires Blind-Fight) for a pretty decent build that has great Touch AC defenses, blindsight to a limited degree and fast healing. When you add more feats through other means (flaws or Human/Strongheart Halfling, though I'd be wary of the latter because of Small size), you have more flexibility on what to choose.

We're just disagreeing on a fundamental aspect of a Paladin. I'm saying that I don't think high Strength is such a requirement for a Paladin. I don't see Paladins as primary damage dealers, though they can be built as such. That's just our visual disagreements and that's fine. Different strokes for different folks. I also prefer taking Two Weapon Fighting because then you're not specifically locked in to shields. If you happen to find a second powerful light (or heavy if you're using a light weapon and a heavy shield) weapon, you can shift gears in to more of a damage dealing role. Don't get me wrong, Agile Shield Fighter is a good feat, I'm just saying that I prefer not to take it and take Two Weapon Fighting instead because I prefer the options it gives me for growth, and different combat ability. On top of just the additional TWF feats, you've also got Two Weapon Pounce, Two Weapon Rend, or Dual Strike. You can't do any of that with Agile Shield Fighter, you're relegated to waiting, likely taking a hit, and then full attacking or just getting a single attack. It's all about choices and options, and I like my choices and options when I go with Two Weapon Fighting over Agile Shield Fighter.

[darkdragoon]

For a "one two punch" I feel like Shield Charge is more feasible and less intensive. And it still leaves room for Gloves of the Balanced Hand if you want to (I)TWF.

[Heavenblade]

An easy and fun way to get the entire paladin package, more or less, is to take the andras vestige with the binder class and hold a shield of mercy. Take tenebrous as your other vestige and start fueling sun, healing, strength devotion feats, sacred vitality, and maybe ordained champion's smite if you dipped into clositered war cleric, and you are golden

[Powerdork]

That's a good idea. My only issue with that is, despite how powerful Ruby Knight Vindicator looks, having only one real option for prestige class makes me sad.

Talk with your GM about a custom prestige class, like the edition intended from the very start.