A challenge for optimizers: Con-based Sorcerer

[Man_Over_Game]

Gonna cut to the chase. I had an idea in a recent thread regarding Constitution Sorcerers that lead to this:

"You can take the Sorcerer, using your Constitution modifier in place of your Charisma modifier for your Sorcerer features.
Requirement: Between 1/41/5 and 1/2 of all of your Class levels must be in Sorcerer."


What's the most broken thing you can do with it, and how does it compare against the default stuff?

For everyone else, what would you do with it?

[Deathtongue]

Gonna cut to the chase. I had an idea in a recent thread regarding Constitution Sorcerers that lead to this:

"You can take the Sorcerer, using your Constitution modifier in place of your Charisma modifier for your Sorcerer features.
Requirement: Between 1/4 and 1/2 of all of your Class levels must be in Sorcerer."

What's the most broken thing you can do with it, and how does it compare against the default stuff?

For everyone else, what would you do with it?

In most games, you'd be getting a 20 Constitution immediately which would give you the average hp per level of a Barbarian with 14 CON, great concentration and CON saving throws, and... then what? It's not like your spell DCs or spells known or spells per day will be higher. Your AC is still not very good. And your skills will be garbage, which is a problem for the sorcerer with their class features and spell list.

Don't get me wrong, it'd be really good. I'd jump at the chance to play a character whose main stat was CON. Just, don't expect miracles here. If you gave me the choice between playing a Bladesinger with 24 INT or a Sorcerer with 20 CON, I'd pick the Bladesinger. And it's actually quite possible to get to play the former.

[Kane0]

Dwarf with their racial feat? Theres no Con based skills to abuse here, its really just Con saves and HP plus maybe AC if you drop into Barbarian.

[Man_Over_Game]

In most games, you'd be getting a 20 Constitution immediately which would give you the average hp per level of a Barbarian with 16 CON, great concentration and CON saving throws, and... then what? It's not like your spell DCs or spells known or spells per day will be higher. Your AC is still not very good. And your skills will be garbage, which is a problem for the sorcerer with their class features and spell list.

Don't get me wrong, it'd be really good. I'd jump at the chance to play a character whose main stat was CON. Just, don't expect miracles here. If you gave me the choice between playing a Bladesinger with 24 INT or a Sorcerer with 20 CON, I'd pick the Bladesinger. And it's actually quite possible to get to play the former.

It's not designed to be a full-class option. In fact, you wouldn't be able to, since the maximum number of Sorcerer levels you could have would have to be 1/2 of your total class levels (so if you're level 7, you can have between 2-3 Sorcerer levels).

It's mostly as an option for players who are unable to include metamagic or melee-oriented spellcasting into their playstyle. An Eldritch Knight now can multiclass like a Paladin, and the Monk now has easy access to things like Shield or Greenflame Blade. A Wizard can now multiclass easily to utilize metamagic, if he's willing to take the cost against his spell levels.

Stuff like that.

[MrStabby]

So cant be lower than 1/4 levels and cant be higher than 1/2 your levels? Actually as you have written it it is between, so not inclusive. What happens if you level up to take it outside of this range - does it flip back to charisma?

So if you want to use Con, then you take your first level of sorcerer at level 3. Then 5. Then 7. Then 9... This is relevant as we are clearly talking about multiclass given the between 1/4 and 1/2 limits. If you are multiclassing Sorcerer then it is almost certainly because you want metamagic. If you want metamagic then you are at least character level 7 with only 2nd level spells known. Even with power this is hard to break. By level 10 you can have level 4 spells and this might be a peak. At level 11 and onwards you are some serious spell levels behind and don't even get to use your metamagic much without falling further behind.

Low level games might have been a problem if you were picking up sorc at level 1, but then you would be at 100% of levels being sorc so benefits wouldn't apply. Something like a 1 level dip in Sorc for a cleric would appeal otherwise- you want to boost Con anyway, gives you con saves, gives you a load of cantrips and access to some very useful spells (I presume this is the point of your level restrictions, to rule it out).

But yes, in general I think the beneficiaries are likely to be the clerics - would love con saves without needing another primary stat, can benefit from metamagic and dot get such good high level spells to lose out on.

[Man_Over_Game]

So cant be lower than 1/4 levels and cant be higher than 1/2 your levels? Actually as you have written it it is between, so not inclusive. What happens if you level up to take it outside of this range - does it flip back to charisma?

That's the plan. It's part of an exhaustive list of attribute changes, although this one is one of the more ambitious ones.

The idea is that, so long as the requirements are met, the multiclass attribute requirements and the features of a class are able to use the alternate ability score. That is, as long as taking a level into Sorcerer doesn't break the requirements, multiclassing into Sorcerer would use Constitution instead of Charisma.

However, if you ever tried to break those multiclassing rules, you'll be forced into obeying the new attribute until the requirements are met again.

So if you leveled 1 level into Sorcerer, and tried to level into Cleric, you're "illegally" leveling into Cleric unless you happen to have a 13 into Charisma. You'd have to level into Cleric first, and then level into Sorcerer. If you took too many Cleric or Sorcerer levels to break the requirement, you'd need the 13 Charisma then or be unable to break the requirements (meaning that you wouldn't be allowed to multiclass illegally).

Or, to summarize, the benefit affects everything...unless the requirement isn't met, or something you would do would cause it to not be met. (One example is that I allowed Wisdom, but only if you have the means to cast Detect Magic). Although that isn't terribly important to what it is I'm looking for, I just meant that as an answer to your question.


If you are multiclassing Sorcerer then it is almost certainly because you want metamagic.

It's worth noting that Sorcerers come equipped with some powerful features at level 1, as well as a great list of spells suited for melee combatants. The only reason we don't see Sorcerers on the front lines is...well, their lack of HP and armor proficiencies. Imagine being able to level into the Half Orc's Undying feature through Shadow Sorcerer, or being able to dance around the battlefield as you cast Earth Tremor and lock your opponents into place. Or simply grant one of your attacks Advantage before Wild Magic drops a Fireball on your location as a Bear Totem Barbarian.

My theory is that everyone has something to gain from a dip into Sorcerer. But maybe it's more restrictive than I thought. It doesn't seem popular.

[CheddarChampion]

Mountain Dwarf 10/14/17/10/13/10 single class sorcerer, archetype of your choice.
Take Dwarven Fortitude and Quicken Spell. At level 5 you can dodge as an action, recover 1d6+4 HP when you dodge, and quicken a spell all in one turn.
Works particularly well with Divine Soul for Spirit Guardians + Spiritual Weapon + Dodge combo.
Your HP is 50 and your AC is 17 with half-plate, 22 with the shield spell.
At level 8 take Durable. At 12 take Aberrant Dragonmark. At 16 take Resilient (Wisdom). At 19 take Tough.

Alternatively:
Loxodon/Hill Dwarf 8/8/17/10/16/13 any archetype with one level in cleric.
Con +1 & Wis +1, Con +2, Resilient (Wisdom), War Caster, Sentinel.
With all your armor, shield of faith/haste, and the shield spell you're looking at 26/27 AC.

[MrStabby]

That's the plan. It's part of an exhaustive list of attribute changes, although this one is one of the more ambitious ones.

The idea is that, so long as the requirements are met, the multiclass attribute requirements and the features of a class are able to use the alternate ability score. That is, as long as taking a level into Sorcerer doesn't break the requirements, multiclassing into Sorcerer would use Constitution instead of Charisma.

However, if you ever tried to break those multiclassing rules, you'll be forced into obeying the new attribute until the requirements are met again.

So if you leveled 1 level into Sorcerer, and tried to level into Cleric, you're "illegally" leveling into Cleric unless you happen to have a 13 into Charisma. You'd have to level into Cleric first, and then level into Sorcerer. If you took too many Cleric or Sorcerer levels to break the requirement, you'd need the 13 Charisma then or be unable to break the requirements (meaning that you wouldn't be allowed to multiclass illegally).

Or, to summarize, the benefit affects everything...unless the requirement isn't met, or something you would do would cause it to not be met. (One example is that I allowed Wisdom, but only if you have the means to cast Detect Magic). Although that isn't terribly important to what it is I'm looking for, I just meant that as an answer to your question.



It's worth noting that Sorcerers come equipped with some powerful features at level 1, as well as a great list of spells suited for melee combatants. The only reason we don't see Sorcerers on the front lines is...well, their lack of HP and armor proficiencies. Imagine being able to level into the Half Orc's Undying feature through Shadow Sorcerer, or being able to dance around the battlefield as you cast Earth Tremor and lock your opponents into place. Or simply grant one of your attacks Advantage before Wild Magic drops a Fireball on your location as a Bear Totem Barbarian.

My theory is that everyone has something to gain from a dip into Sorcerer. But maybe it's more restrictive than I thought. It doesn't seem popular.

Well thats the thing... 1st level has some useful stuff. But if you like these rules for 1st level then you are screwed at level 4. It is impossible to have a number of levels of sorcerer at level 4 such that the proportion is between 1/4 and 1/2. And even if you could... what then. Sure 1st level is nice but pretty soon you will need a second level. You really want that one so much? The price of this is taking a number of levels in a class where a number of them are not really that optimal for multiclassing.

Now if you were to do this on something like paladin, where almost every level has something you want then it might be a bit different. On a sorcerer... as described it is not really that exciting.

[Dork_Forge]

With the level limits in place, well nothing? You seem to intend this as a multiclassing dip right? It could be a mildy interesting way to get access to Shield and a 1st level feature of your choice, but as written you still need to have a 13 Cha, which makes this MAD still and doesn't yield any meaningful benefit but stifle your main progression. The level restictions also seem to mean that once you hit level 5 this option becomes unavailable to you?

[Galithar]

Okay so I'm gonna go with a Sorcerer with a level dip in Barbarian at 1 for higher starting health, but can start Sorcerer if that's a requirement without losing anything.

Stats are:
Str: 13
Dex: 15 +1 (racial)
Con:14 +2 (racial)
Int: 10
Wis: 12
Cha: 8

Race Warforged for the ability increases and +1 AC.

Attacks with Booming Blade/Green Flame Blade

Level 4: Warcaster - Pickup a shield.
Level 8: Con +2
Level 12: Con +2
Level 16: Dex +2
Level 19: Dex +2

Level 2: AC is 16 unarmored.
Level 5: With first ASI I pickup Warcaster and a shield for AC 18
Level 9: AC and spells +1 AC 19
Level 13: AC and spells +1 AC 20
Level 17: AC and Attack +1 AC 21
Level 20: AC and Attack +1 AC 22

It's not super broken or anything, but it gives me full caster progression delayed by 1 with the Barbarians unarmored defense. I'd go with a Divine Soul Sorcerer to give me the Spirit Guardians synergy and a real reason to be in melee. Spiritual Weapon gives a good use of my bonus action when needed. Along with all the other goodies.

Just my first thought. I'll see if I can optimize something a little better out if it for you though.

Edit: Just realized that this exceeds the maximum sorcerer levels allowed... Back to the drawing board haha

[Man_Over_Game]

Well thats the thing... 1st level has some useful stuff. But if you like these rules for 1st level then you are screwed at level 4. It is impossible to have a number of levels of sorcerer at level 4 such that the proportion is between 1/4 and 1/2. And even if you could... what then. Sure 1st level is nice but pretty soon you will need a second level. You really want that one so much? The price of this is taking a number of levels in a class where a number of them are not really that optimal for multiclassing.

Now if you were to do this on something like paladin, where almost every level has something you want then it might be a bit different. On a sorcerer... as described it is not really that exciting.

I mean, you are getting some decent stuff. Just take all the same lessons we learned from Sorcerer/Paladin hybrids.

Level 1 gets you Shield and good cantrips.
Level 2 gets you Metamagics, good for..well, everything. Even an attacker can benefit from Quicken Spell.
Level 3 gets you level 2 spells, which include things like Mirror Image (Concentration-less defense spell, good on literally everyone)
Level 4 gets you an ASI.

Sure, it's not as generically powerful as Action Surge at level 2, but being able to cast Thunderwave as a Bonus Action as a Fighter has to have some merit, right?

------------

Mostly, the intent was to allow players to incorporate aspects of the Sorcerer (like the origin subclass effects) and the universally-effective spell tree into other classes. If you want to play as a Wizard blessed by the gods? Got it. Want to play a Cleric that is polluted by shadow magic? Got it. Rogue that was hit by a lightning bolt? Got that too.

However, I wanted it to pose as a cost. I don't want players to use it as a means of breaking the game. I wanted them to have more options and control over how they develop their character. If it was affordable to level into Sorcerer for some cheap Shield spells and other easy benefits, everyone would do it for mechanical reasons instead of thematic ones. We see this can easily go overboard with Sorcerer+Warlocks and Sorcerer+Paladins, which is why I imposed a cost:

You get Sorcerer powers, but delay Extra Attack. You get Sorcerer metamagic, but lose spell progression. You're unable to rely too heavily on being a single-stat Sorcerer, since you're unable to scale your Sorcerer spell levels to be competitive.

But perhaps 1/4 is being too restrictive. I could agree with 1/5, as this still delays Extra Attack, and provides enough benefit before you have to "pay the tithe" of another Sorcerer level before things like Shield or Booming Blade, for one level, become too effective.

It'd effectively become:

Level 5, Level 6, Level 11, Level 16

I think that's enough for most to find good use for the concept, while still feeling the impact of a 2-level dip during a crucial jump in power.

[Galithar]

Str 10
Dex 14
Con 14 +2
Int 10
Wis 15 +1
Cha 8


Arcana Cleric 1
Shadow Sorcerer 1
Cleric 2
Sorcerer 2
Cleric 3
Cleric 4
Cleric 5
Sorcerer 3
Cleric 6
Cleric 7
Sorcerer 4
Cleric 8
Sorcerer 5
Sorcerer 6
Cleric 9
Sorcerer 7
Sorcerer 8
Cleric to 12


So this would end with level 4 Sorcerer spells level 6 Cleric spells and full slot progression.

I have yet to come up with an actual strategy or anything for this. I just wanted to see what level progression would look like with staying 1/4-1/2 Sorcerer. Honestly it doesn't look to appealing to me. With the stat change I would want the Sorcerer to be the main casting class to take advantage of that, but it ends up being the other full caster instead. I'm not going to even finish trying this and move back to attempting a Martial/Sorcerer multiclass because I think it might be more viable.