[3.5] Dragon Samurai

[Thurbane]

So, the Dragon Samurai (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20030906c) is a PrC from Miniatures handbook.

And quite frankly, it's not great.

If it was changed to full BAB, and the breath weapon changed to every 1d4 rounds instead of 1/day, would it be enough to entice anyone to play it?

What changes would you make for this to be a viable PrC?

Cheers - T

[One Step Two]

I think the class is a solid martial build, and with the changes you're suggesting, it makes it amazing. Especially since the Dragon Samurai has the ability to stack breath weapon effects. I wonder how it would intersect with things like the Dagonborn, or a Dragonfire Adept.

Edit: Even if making the less than Optimal Choice of playing a Half-Dragon, then talking levels in Dragon Samurai as written, if you picked up the Dragon Breath Feat from Races of the Dragon to get it every 1d4 rounds, would the class become 1d4 rounds as well?

[RaiKirah]

Edit: Even if making the less than Optimal Choice of playing a Half-Dragon, then talking levels in Dragon Samurai as written, if you picked up the Dragon Breath Feat from Races of the Dragon to get it every 1d4 rounds, would the class become 1d4 rounds as well?

Probably depends on how strictly you adhere to the order of operations. The class seems pretty clear in converting any existing breath weapons to 1/day and stacking damage, but breath weapons picked up after entering the class aren't addressed. Probably get them as a separate pool of usages and effects, would be my read.

[One Step Two]

Yeah, the most straightforward interpretation would be that if your character has a recharging or at-will breath weapon, the Dragon Samurai would be able to use their Class Feature (stacking and all) 1/day only.

[The Viscount]

Those features you mentioned would make it significantly better. I'd change their immunity to Dragon Fear to cover all dragons, not just their own clan. Honestly, you could probably get away with making them immune to fear overall.

[ExLibrisMortis]

I'd go a bit further than that.

Full base attack is good, for sure.
As the Viscount said, fear immunity is fine, but at least immunity to all dragons' frightful presence.
At level 10, grant energy immunity, instead of resistance 20. None of this messing about with little numbers, a capstone should be beefy.
Make the class stack with a choice of animal companion/special mount/familiar, but only if the companion is a dragon (Draconic Familiar, Draconic Cohort etcetera).
Make the breath weapon usable at will, or perhaps every other round. Scaling at 1d8/level to a maximum of 10d8 at level 15, it's going to be around the same strength as a warlock/DFA/reserve feat, so it doesn't need a huge cooldown. If you want it to be a good ability, but don't want dragon samurai to transform into breath blasters, you could make it usable as a swift action, but with a longer cooldown.

You could add something akin to the Havoc Mage's signature ability, and allow Dragon Samurai to use their breath weapon and make a weapon attack as a full-round action. The capstone could then enhance that action to allow one iterative (i.e. attack at +15/+10, plus breath weapon), keeping it relevant as alternative full attack at higher levels.

If you did all that, it would be balanced against a paladin, crusader, or warblade. Giving up that spellcasting or those maneuvers isn't great, but that breath weapon is nice and beefy.

[Prime32]

For another route, you could staple on Tome of Battle support. Give it Desert Wind and Diamond Mind maneuvers, plus a class feature that permanently changes the damage type of Desert Wind to match their breath weapon. Or maybe the ability to select Draconic feats as a sorcerer of your initiator level and power them with maneuvers instead of spells (or just give it the appropriate "X Dragon Lineage" feat, which rarely sees much use on sorcerers).

Another interesting option would be letting them stack their breath weapon with their mount's breath weapon if they have one. You take the action to use it, but it emerges from your mount, using the better size and save DC of the two breath weapons, and dealing their combined damage.

[Gruftzwerg]

So, the Dragon Samurai (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20030906c) is a PrC from Miniatures handbook.

And quite frankly, it's not great.

If it was changed to full BAB, and the breath weapon changed to every 1d4 rounds instead of 1/day, would it be enough to entice anyone to play it?

What changes would you make for this to be a viable PrC?

Cheers - T

Imho the class is bad deisgned and beyong help. Even the regular Samurai (tier 5?6?) looks better..

It looks like a DFA with better BAB (3/4) but even full BAB wouldn't change the fact that I would avoid this class. The breath weapon is a joke compared to a DFA. And it doesn't provide any combat bonuses, besides from a laughable elemental weapon enchantment. Anything it tries to accomplish others can do better.
Take a monk or unarmed swordsage(x) / shou disciple(5) as base to flurry any kind of weapon you might wanna use (if it has to be katana..). Add Dragon Disciple on top of it. Besides from the 3/4 BAB it is better in every other aspect. If you want to breath attack alot, better go DFA and ignore the 1/2 BAB. Either melee or breathweapon focus. But the Dragon Samurai has nothing to offer.

[ngilop]

I had to get my copy of miniatures handbook to double check, why did the dragon samurai NOT get full BAB?

I think just that fix alone makes it better. I think turning into a dragon fire adept is kinda going in the wrong way.

I got a couple other tweaks i would toss in to make it more dragon-y.


But, honestly giving it full base attack is a boost over straight fighter with everything else going on.

[daremetoidareyo]

That ride dragon bonus should be granted on 1st level. Level 6 then should be something more beefy, like more dragon breath uses

[daremetoidareyo]

That ride dragon bonus should be granted on 1st level. Level 6 then should be something more beefy, like more dragon breath uses

Alternatively, make the class 5 levels long, collapsing class features together.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

I could almost see going 4 levels in on a thrown weapon (arguably) or Mercurial Strike build, where you have to have enough weapons on hand that enchanting them all would be too costly. But at that point it's got to be a better idea to sink those levels into getting more of a harder-to-activate source of bonus damage and then the wealth (and levels) into activating it reliably. I mean, Mercurial Strike is already forcing flat-footed; take those two skill points you put into knowledge (arcana) and buy a single cross-class rank in iaijutsu focus instead. You've already almost recouped your losses from that alone, and can now more profitably put those four levels into Mountebank or something.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

A few thematic changes are in order, for starters:
1. Grant the dragonblood subtype if the character doesn't already have it.
2. Grant something similar to the Dragonscale Husk ACF from Dragon Magic, but make it better.
3. Grant a frightful presence.
4. Add speaking draconic to the prerequisites.
5. Extend the choices to non-core dragon types.

For the Dragonscale Husk, I'd make it not replace any existing armor proficiencies, instead improving with class level at double speed, getting the normal level 20 version at the 10th level of the class. Make it so the character can grow it over a suit of magical light armor, the armor bonuses don't stack but the enhancement bonus and any enchantments on the armor are carried over to the dragonscale husk. Make the specific energy resistance the class gains stack with that granted by the husk, so it's effectively doubled for that specific energy type, and grant immunity to that one at the 10th class level.


A few power/playability changes are needed as well:
1. Full BAB.
2. Increase the base skill points/level to at least 4.
3. Make the breath attack usable every 1d4 rounds.
4. At the 10th level make the breath attack ignore energy resistance and deal half damage to energy immune creatures (but immunity due to an elemental subtype is still immune, and damage conversion such as iron golem healing or shambling mound is unchanged).
5. Make the breath attack damage stack with all other breath attacks the character has which deal that same damage type. Breath attacks with limited daily uses can only have their damage added that many times per day. So a Dragonborn of Bahamut with the heart aspect who also has Dragonfire Adept levels would stack both of those damage pools and add that to the Dragon Samurai breath damage.
6. Make the fear immunity just a blanket immunity to all frightful presence effects, regardless of source.
7. Make Dragon Friend a +2 bonus that applies to all creatures of the dragon type and the dragonblood subtype, but doubled to +4 for dragons of the character's clan and dragonblood subtype creatures associated with that dragon type.
8. Should get immunity to the energy type of their breath attack at the 10th class level.


Finally, the dragonscale husk should also grow wings that allow flight at some point.

[GrayDeath]

Some good suggestions already.

For my games (assuming "Normal" OP, for example for some harder Modules, no Groups with mainly T1 and 2 Chars^^) I would change it as follows:

1.: Full BAB.
2.: Switch the Breath Weapon to once every d4 turns around Level 3/4 of this class
3.: Give them a "Draconic Bonus Feat every odd Level OR (if its in paly generally) give them a mslow Maneuver Progression (in 3.p ideally limited to Thrashing Dragon^^).
4.: Change the Capstone to Immunity to own Element, and add a Vulnerability to the opposite Element.
5.: Give their Immunity to Frightening PResence earlier and grant total Fear Immunity around Level 8ish.
6.: Depending on what you like more, add in the Ability Mods of the Dragon Disciple OR allow them to change Shape to a young Dragon o(eg their total HD -2ish) for Con Mod*2 Turns per Day.

That would be well playable and fit the theme.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Dragon Samurai wouldn't be terrible if it were 2 or 3 levels long. The entire class is effectively 1 2nd and 2 3rd-level spells per day (dragon breath from Drac, weapon of energy from SpC, and resist energy), a subpar bonus feat, two +4 check bonuses, and fear immunity; that's basically 1 level of fighter plus the 6th level of sorcerer plus the 3rd level of paladin (but worse because the fear immunity is so limited and doesn't affect allies).

And even then it's just "not terrible," not actually good. It gives you perks around interacting with dragons without guaranteeing you'll be able to use them by straight-up giving you a dragon companion like similar monster-friend-themed PrCs do, all of the abilities but the breath weapon are generic "don't die from being near a dragon" abilities rather than anything particularly unique or cool, and none of the abilities really synergize with any particular fighting styles or give you new martial gimmicks to let a martial character be both thematic and actually effective.

If it were condensed into, say, a 3-level PrC that gave out "Draconic Body: +[2*level] natural armor, natural claw attacks, [10*level] resistance to an associated energy type, and breath weapon for [3*level]d6 [level]/day" at 1st level, "Dragonfriend: Immune to dragon fear, +[2*level] insight bonus on all skill checks involving dragons, and Dragon Cohort as a bonus feat" at 2nd level, and, I dunno, "Enter the Dragon: cast either draconic polymorph or lesser dragon ally 1/day" at 3rd level, I might take it...but even then you're taking a detour into dragony goodness and not advancing maneuvers or flurry of blows or rage or whatever, so I might not.