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View Full Version : Optimization Need help with a weird idea. How best to represent this mechanically?



PoeticallyPsyco
2020-03-25, 01:00 AM
So I've been chipping away at a build for the much-delayed Junkyard Wars (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?603826-Junkyard-Wars-XXVIII-1MF-CPA-amp-A-T) competition. And I've hit a wall. And I've found a possible way around that wall. But I'd love some advice/input on said way.

Fair warning, the spoilered section will probably give the game away as to which entry is mine, so if you care about that, read no further. OTOH, right now it's looking like I'm the only entry in the works, which would make the whole thing a moot point.

While stuck on an aspect of the build, I hit on a solution that I at first dismissed as too cheesy, mainly because it doesn't fit with the concept I'm going for. Symbiotic Creature (Savage Species pg 131).

But then I thought about it some more, and actually it could play quite nicely with the concept... with the right guest and host creatures. The original concept is a man turned into a cyborg after a serious injury, for which Sym. Cr. is a poor fit, but adapted to a fantasy setting there are several ways it could work:

The original man back as a corporeal tiny intelligent undead or something (would have to retain at least one class feature), inhabiting some medium creature (a construct of some sort? Warforged?). Would also work at larger sizes, for that matter. Main thing here would be fitting the type requirements; Human Heritage works for the original man, and would work for some hosts too. What templates/creatures work best? Maybe Incarnate Construct for the host?

OTOH, with a larger host you don't even need a template for the guest (the original man). However, with the added size being a significant departure from the original idea, I'd prefer something especially 'cyborg-y' for the host. Incarnate Construct might work for this, too.

For both of these, lower HD is better, natch. That said, in an effort to make this cheese less stinky, having the final product end up with a reasonable ECL would be nice. Note that Symbiotic Creature explicitly works on guests/hosts with LA --, setting their LA to +1 because it is broken.


TL;DR I'd like recommendations for two creatures that combined would work well thematically for a fantasy cyborg/small mech suit. One has to be a (former?) humanoid-ish that still has its class features; the second one has to be at least two sizes larger than the first and be an animal,
humanoid, plant, or vermin.

Oh, one last thing. This freaking question (https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/166781/is-there-a-way-to-get-decisive-strike-with-a-non-monk-weapon/166782#166782) is the sticking point in my build that kicked this whole idea off. I would be much obliged to anyone that can figure out a better answer than mine (Symbiotic Creature). It also just straight up tells you the build concept I'm working around, so if you don't want it spoiled don't click. Corollary: if you're curious and want to know, check it out.


EDIT: I ended up finding a different (and far more elegant) work-around. That said, I'd still be curious as to what creatures you guys think fit/would work with the concept.

SangoProduction
2020-03-25, 11:24 AM
http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/

Spheres of Power actually has exactly what you need.

Feat: Transformation (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/general-feats#toc29), using Object Transformation (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/alteration#toc47) as your selected form. This doesn't let you get traits, but you get everything else under Object Transformation. This will get you your construct form you want.

Class: Wraith (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/wraith) for the possession. Although possessing something also takes your body with yourself, but that can be solved with...

Race: Dvati (google it). From 3.5, this race is two playable characters that share the same character sheet and resources. Pretty good for your purposes, I'd say.
If you're really invested in that weird bit at the end about the gargantuan animal, just take Alteration sphere with your casting talents, picking up Size Change (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/alteration#toc26) and Animalistic Transformation (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/alteration#toc40). You'd actually have to cast a real alteration in order to use the talents, but it's an option for whenever you want to un-possess your other self.

LA: +1



-

If you'd just like the mech suit, then Synthesis Summoner (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/summoner/archetypes/paizo-summoner-archetypes/synthesist) could be up your alley, if you find someone to let you play it.

jdizzlean
2020-03-25, 12:55 PM
unfortunately JYW is a 3.5 based competition using only 1st party sources, so spheres of power is a no go.


i actually forgot about this round of JYW, and looking back on it, i think i had a partial idea that got forgotten or didn't seem possible, or seemed like more hassle than it was worth to get it to function.


that said, your question is on something that i hate seeing both as a judge and competitor, of which i'm neither this go around of course. I will try to think on it a little bit, and may circle back around to post something for you in a day or two.


i think i was planning on figuring out how to use both pole fighter and pole master, and got lost in the details really early..... i might look at my notes and see if i can chase it down this week, we'll see.


**edit**

it also appears the chair for JYW (https://forums.giantitp.com/member.php?69985-Macabaret) hasn't been online since january.... so at this point i think you/we'd have to post your build in the open

PoeticallyPsyco
2020-03-25, 12:59 PM
Yeah I was all fired up about my idea last night... but now looking at it, I'm not quite sure why. It's not very tanky, it's not very offensive, it doesn't have exceptional utility, and it's not making very good use of the SIs. It's got some pretty flavorful ingredients, but you stop earning points for that a ways before you start needing Symbiotic Creature just to stitch them together...

Falontani
2020-03-25, 01:09 PM
I haven't looked at either of yours yet; but I wanted to say that I have my JYW build done as well.

Segev
2020-03-25, 02:07 PM
If I'm reading the stackexchange thing right, you're using a 3.0 PrC? Is that legal in JYW?

Telonius
2020-03-25, 02:15 PM
Does it have to be a corporeal undead? There are some possession feats in Ghostwalk that could allow you to possess a Warforged. (Regular Constructs are unfortunately out; it has to be a living creature). If you're not set on undead, Fiend of Possession would let you do this more directly.

PoeticallyPsyco
2020-03-25, 02:23 PM
If I'm reading the stackexchange thing right, you're using a 3.0 PrC? Is that legal in JYW?

It's a grey area (I hope). If you consider the 3.5 Soulknife base class an update to the 3.0 PrC then no, it's not legal. I'm making the claim that they're different enough, on top of one being a base class and the other a PrC, that they should be considered separate. There's also precedent for prestige versions of base classes (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/prestigiousCharacterClasses.htm) in 3.5. Plus, Prestige Soulknife is an actually interesting ingredient that I'd like to draw attention to, especially compared to 3.5 Soulknife.


Does it have to be a corporeal undead? There are some possession feats in Ghostwalk that could allow you to possess a Warforged. (Regular Constructs are unfortunately out; it has to be a living creature). If you're not set on undead, Fiend of Possession would let you do this more directly.

Hmm, possession's an angle I hadn't considered. It'd be sketchy for this particular build, but I'll have to keep that in mind for the future.

NontheistCleric
2020-03-28, 01:10 AM
Apply the Corrupted template (BoVD), then apply the Wood Element template (MoTP). The resultant creature will be a plant and thus qualify for Symbiotic Creature. This works for any corporeal non-outsider, including constructs.

Of course, you'd have to be okay with having an evil plant robot half.