Looking for items with Grease-like effects

[Gruftzwerg]

Are there any (magic) items that does something similar? Forcing Balance checks(!) for cause enemies without 5 ranks in balance to be flat footed?

Ideally as ammunition or grenade type.
I already thought about a Grease wand, but are there other options?

So far i have found:

Marbles
I found Marbles in Arms & Equipment, but it doesn't provide info's about how it is used. Can I throw it as standard action? Or do I have to drop it on an adjacent square? Can I cover more than 1 square per round, assuming I have enough marbles (or attacks if attack rolls into squares are required)?

Oil Chamber:
The name implies that this could be an option. But as far as I interpret the rules, it wouldn't work. I don't know of any substance that would cause a slippery affect when the "ammunition is covered" by the substance. Any thoughts on this?

Are there maybe alternatives?

edit: marked the Balance check requirement, to make it more obvious.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Marbles or ball bearings, put them in a folded cloth and ready it as a weaponlike object. You can quick-draw it as a fee action, then drop it into an adjacent square as a free action. They'll spill out of the folded cloth and force a balance check from anyone in that square.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Flasks of oil (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#oil), which are in the PHB. Feel free to use them as Molotov cocktails.

[Gruftzwerg]

Marbles or ball bearings, put them in a folded cloth and ready it as a weaponlike object. You can quick-draw it as a fee action, then drop it into an adjacent square as a free action. They'll spill out of the folded cloth and force a balance check from anyone in that square.

So I can't use em at range I guess?
And I would further assume, that I am limited to a max of 2 per turn (if 2 are readied).
Could I use more with Quick Draw? Drawing and dropping them as free action?


Flasks of oil (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#oil), which are in the PHB. Feel free to use them as Molotov cocktails.

I don't see that the standard lamp oil is able to make surfaces slippery per rules. you can cover a surface with it, but it doesn't say anything about slippery nor about forced Balance checks. Or is there any other rule text than in the SDR that would provide rules for such an application?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I don't see that the standard lamp oil is able to make surfaces slippery per rules. you can cover a surface with it, but it doesn't say anything about slippery nor about forced Balance checks. Or is there any other rule text than in the SDR that would provide rules for such an application?The rule that states that anything in-game should work the way it does in real life, unless the rules state otherwise. Oil, when applied to most surfaces, makes it extremely slick (it's most of the reasons why oil is used for anything; the exceptions tend toward things like fuel, cooking, and solvent for paint). If real oil makes things slick, then game oil should do the same. It's one of its major uses.

[Troacctid]

A quick search turns up free foot, an alchemical item from Dragon #280, page 51, which makes the ground slippery in a 5-foot square.


The rule that states that anything in-game should work the way it does in real life, unless the rules state otherwise. Oil, when applied to most surfaces, makes it extremely slick (it's most of the reasons why oil is used for anything; the exceptions tend toward things like fuel, cooking, and solvent for paint). If real oil makes things slick, then game oil should do the same. It's one of its major uses.
It's lamp oil. It's used for fuel, not for lubrication.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

It's lamp oil. It's used for fuel, not for lubrication.Any liquid can be used for lubrication, be it kerosene or water. It might only work on smooth, hard ground (and not dirt or other absorbent material), but there's at least a chance of slipping on wet flooring if you're not careful.

Plus, it's not necessarily kerosene. Apparently the most commonly used lamp oil in the Middle Ages was olive oil, (http://jillwilliamson.com/2010/05/medieval-facts-lighting-part-three-oil-lamps/) which I assure you is VERY slick.

[Gruftzwerg]

A quick search turns up free foot, an alchemical item from Dragon #280, page 51, which makes the ground slippery in a 5-foot square.


It's lamp oil. It's used for fuel, not for lubrication.

I already stepped upon the "free foot", but that is not what I am looking for. I'm looking specific for Balance checks and Free Foot only causes Reflex checks. The reasoning is that Balance checks cause you to be flat footed when you don't have 5 ranks in balance. Slippery effects that cause Reflex saves won't work here.


The rule that states that anything in-game should work the way it does in real life, unless the rules state otherwise. Oil, when applied to most surfaces, makes it extremely slick (it's most of the reasons why oil is used for anything; the exceptions tend toward things like fuel, cooking, and solvent for paint). If real oil makes things slick, then game oil should do the same. It's one of its major uses.

1. Even in real life this would only work under ideal conditions. We are talking about as much oil as to fill a lamp, not a barrel of oil. And with such a little volume, you could barely use it for a flat(!) 5feet square to make it slippery. Most other surfaces, like most natural, wouldn't have a slippery effect with such little amount of oil.

2. Even if I would have enough oil or the perfect surface, the rules don't provide any rules how this would be handled. Since it ain't a clear Balance check, this option fails to accomplish the task here.


____________________

Thx for your ideas so far and keep em coming. As said, pls things that cause Balance checks!


edit: corrected would into wouldn't ..^^

[Khedrac]

Don't forget a wand of ice slick which is a cleric spell from Frostburn that is pretty much the same as grease.

The Vial of Icy Sheets is a consumable item that has the same effect (FB page 112).

[Troacctid]

Any liquid can be used for lubrication, be it kerosene or water. It might only work on smooth, hard ground (and not dirt or other absorbent material), but there's at least a chance of slipping on wet flooring if you're not careful.

Plus, it's not necessarily kerosene. Apparently the most commonly used lamp oil in the Middle Ages was olive oil, (http://jillwilliamson.com/2010/05/medieval-facts-lighting-part-three-oil-lamps/) which I assure you is VERY slick.
By RAW, this would increase the DC of a Balance check on the surface, but wouldn't force you to make a Balance check if you weren't doing so already.

[Gruftzwerg]

Don't forget a wand of ice slick which is a cleric spell from Frostburn that is pretty much the same as grease.

The Vial of Icy Sheets is a consumable item that has the same effect (FB page 112).

Vial of Icy Sheets is only Reflex save..^^

But Ice Slick looks nice. 1st lvl and double the area of grease. Ty, I'll note this one as option for me <3


_______________

Any other suggestions?

[the_tick_rules]

the decanter of endless water doesn't have formal stats for balance checks and stuff but at full power I see a pretty convincing argument for coming up with one, you are basically taking a fire hose. salve of slipperiness is a basic item that does have rules.

[Gruftzwerg]

the decanter of endless water doesn't have formal stats for balance checks and stuff but at full power I see a pretty convincing argument for coming up with one, you are basically taking a fire hose. salve of slipperiness is a basic item that does have rules.

My problem is that I am working on an optimized build for showchasing it here on the forum and as guide to link later. I would like to avoid anything where the rules are not clear as much as possible.
The requirement is mainly to make enemies flat footed and thus we need balance checks supported by the rules.

The builds is already cheesy enough and I would like to avoid any unnecessary things relying on DM fiat. As said, I already have options for the build (like marbeles, a grease wand and now Ice Slick as alternative), but I am looking for more options if possible to choose from or to take as separate options to cause enemies to be flat footed.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Dorje of psionic grease/ectoplasmic sheen, just to be thorough.

[Gruftzwerg]

Dorje of psionic grease/ectoplasmic sheen, just to be thorough.

Nice, a valid option. But dunno if I want to dip into psionics for the build I have in mind. I'll still give it a thought and see if I can make use of it.

[FauxKnee]

So I can't use em at range I guess?
And I would further assume, that I am limited to a max of 2 per turn (if 2 are readied).
Could I use more with Quick Draw? Drawing and dropping them as free action?

RAW, Quick Draw only applies to weapons. Many DMs (myself included) allow it to apply to other items as well. If you can come up with a clever way to count them as ammunition (is there a blunderbuss or something that allows you to use basically anything as ammunition?) you could draw them as free actions.

Marbles are described as an alternative to caltrops. I was surprised that the description of caltrops does not address ranged use. Personally I'd allow someone to throw a sack of caltrops as a standard action, similar to using a tanglefoot bag.

If you're looking for more range, there's the handy cantrip launch item from the spell compendium that could fit the bill. It does not explicitly say that something like a pouch or folded-over cloth would empty automatically on impact, but it's a pretty reasonable inference. (It describes using the spell for things like acid flasks and thunderstones, so clearly it impacts the ground/target with enough force.)

[MaxiDuRaritry]

You know what you could do with grease? Metamagic.

I mean, imagine what you could do with, say, Enlarge + Sculpt Spell (Cone), along with (quite possibly) the grease equivalent of the locate city bomb.

Remember, grease is useful all the way through to epic. Between making warriors fumble with their weapons to completely neutering non-flying [mindless] foes (such as golems) to making it really difficult for a spellcaster to get into his spell component pouch, grease is just a fantastic use of a spell slot all the way through.

[Troacctid]

You know what you could do with grease? Metamagic.

I mean, imagine what you could do with, say, Enlarge + Sculpt Spell (Cone), along with (quite possibly) the grease equivalent of the locate city bomb.

Remember, grease is useful all the way through to epic. Between making warriors fumble with their weapons to completely neutering non-flying [mindless] foes (such as golems) to making it really difficult for a spellcaster to get into his spell component pouch, grease is just a fantastic use of a spell slot all the way through.
Enlarge increases the range, but not the area, so I don't think you would accomplish much with it. Perhaps you're thinking of Widen, which would work on the 20-foot spread version, although I don't see how that gets you a locate city bomb.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Enlarge increases the range, but not the area, so I don't think you would accomplish much with it. Perhaps you're thinking of Widen, which would work on the 20-foot spread version, although I don't see how that gets you a locate city bomb.Ahem.


You can modify an area spell by changing the area's shape to either a cylinder (10-foot radius, 30 feet high), a 40-foot cone, four 10-foot cubes, a ball (20-foot-radius spread), or a 120-foot line. The sculpted spell works normally in all respects except for its shape. For example, a lightning bolt whose area is changed to a ball deals the same amount of damage, but affects a 20-foot-radius spread.Notice anything there?

[Troacctid]

Ahem.

Notice anything there?
No? Enlarge Spell doubles the range from 25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels to 50 ft. + 10 ft./2 levels. Is that helpful somehow?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

No? Enlarge Spell doubles the range from 25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels to 50 ft. + 10 ft./2 levels. Is that helpful somehow?It is when you have an area larger than grease's Range.

[Gruftzwerg]

RAW, Quick Draw only applies to weapons. Many DMs (myself included) allow it to apply to other items as well. If you can come up with a clever way to count them as ammunition (is there a blunderbuss or something that allows you to use basically anything as ammunition?) you could draw them as free actions.

Marbles are described as an alternative to caltrops. I was surprised that the description of caltrops does not address ranged use. Personally I'd allow someone to throw a sack of caltrops as a standard action, similar to using a tanglefoot bag.

If you're looking for more range, there's the handy cantrip launch item from the spell compendium that could fit the bill. It does not explicitly say that something like a pouch or folded-over cloth would empty automatically on impact, but it's a pretty reasonable inference. (It describes using the spell for things like acid flasks and thunderstones, so clearly it impacts the ground/target with enough force.)
Is there anything that would stop me from drawing the marbles as improvised (throwing) weapon? Imho it should work. And if the DM wouldn't allow for counting it as ammunition, you could use Quick Draw. IIRC Quick Draw doesn't require proficiency in the weapon drawn.

Alternatively I have thought about an Unseen Servant. But when the build has access to US he can use Grease directly. To sole reason to use US would be to use it more than once in a fight for a single slot/charge use. Not so optimal imho. Anyone aware of a existing 3.5 item with Unseen Servant btw? Ideally at will^^.

_________________

You know what you could do with grease? Metamagic.

I mean, imagine what you could do with, say, Enlarge + Sculpt Spell (Cone), along with (quite possibly) the grease equivalent of the locate city bomb.

Remember, grease is useful all the way through to epic. Between making warriors fumble with their weapons to completely neutering non-flying [mindless] foes (such as golems) to making it really difficult for a spellcaster to get into his spell component pouch, grease is just a fantastic use of a spell slot all the way through.


Enlarge increases the range, but not the area, so I don't think you would accomplish much with it. Perhaps you're thinking of Widen, which would work on the 20-foot spread version, although I don't see how that gets you a locate city bomb.

I guess metamagic will be out of reach for this build. And since the build will be also using a wand as backup strategy for most lvls, it's even more limited for metamagic application. But since it's a 1st lvl spell with rounds/clvl duration, I would already invest into a grease wand with higher clvl. Maybe investing even more for Widening could be an option for lager packs of enemies. But dunno if that much gold is worth the investment and delay (at the point when one could effort to buy it).

[Troacctid]

Drow house insignias (DrU) are CL 5 regardless of the level of spell they contain, so they're a pretty efficient method of getting access to spells like grease.

[FauxKnee]

Anyone aware of a existing 3.5 item with Unseen Servant btw? Ideally at will^^.

There's the Collar of Perpetual Attendance for 2000gp, from the Fabulous Cats! web article. (It was an April Fools joke, but the item follows the standard price suggestion formula.)

[Gruftzwerg]

Drow house insignias (DrU) are CL 5 regardless of the level of spell they contain, so they're a pretty efficient method of getting access to spells like grease.

Totally forgot about those, since I almost never play Drow characters..^^
But I would prefer to use it with Ice Slick I guess, since it has double the effect area compared to grease.
Really thx for reminding me of those. And the 5th Clvl gives enough duration (5 rounds) as well, perfect. <3



There's the Collar of Perpetual Attendance for 2000gp, from the Fabulous Cats! web article. (It was an April Fools joke, but the item follows the standard price suggestion formula.)
well as least the price seems accurate as you said. dunno, if I want to add a april fools items to a build guide..^^ But I guess I will note it as option. thx

[SirNibbles]

Any liquid can be used for lubrication, be it kerosene or water. It might only work on smooth, hard ground (and not dirt or other absorbent material), but there's at least a chance of slipping on wet flooring if you're not careful.

Plus, it's not necessarily kerosene. Apparently the most commonly used lamp oil in the Middle Ages was olive oil, (http://jillwilliamson.com/2010/05/medieval-facts-lighting-part-three-oil-lamps/) which I assure you is VERY slick.

It may be slick, but there is no general rule for needing a balance check just because you're walking over a slick surface.




"On a narrow surface or a difficult surface, a failure by 4 or less means you can’t move for 1 round. A failure by 5 or more means you fall. The DC of the Balance check varies with the surface, as detailed on the following table."

Rules Compendium, page 90


Narrow surfaces means anything less than 12 inches wide. Difficult surfaces are: uneven flagstone; hewn stone floors; sloped or angled floors; moving surfaces; or violently moving surfaces. Thus, unless specifically stated as causing Balance checks, something that makes a surface slippery doesn't do anything unless it is already a narrow or difficult surface.

I'll caveat that by pointing out that uneven flagstone and hewn stone floors will account for many surfaces in any sort of dungeon or building, and thus nearly every surface you walk on requires a Balance check. I don't see why hewn stone floors would require Balance checks, and I doubt any DM has ever made someone make a Balance check to walk at half speed over something looks like this:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-a0CDUSyl_pI/U7KNLiuW3BI/AAAAAAAAB08/_yK-OIsB8UU/s1600/gazis03.jpg

A floor in a cave makes a little more sense, but it still might be a bit harsh to say it requires Balance:

https://static.independent.co.uk/s3fs-public/thumbnails/image/2019/07/13/16/deer-cave-passage.jpg?w968

___

If you look through books such as Frostburn, you'll find that a lot of the Natural Hazards which affect balance checks do not force you to Balance, but rather only increase the DC if you would have needed to make a Balance check already. They do, however, often require an outright Balance check for running or charging.

___

Spells to be made into wands:

Incendiary Slime (Complete Mage, page 108) is worth mentioning for the sake of completeness. It functions in the same way as Grease, but is a level 2 spell (higher Reflex save DC), and can be set alight to deal fire damage to anyone in the area.

Column of Ice (Frostburn, page 90) is a Druid 3, Sorcerer/Wizard 4 spell that forces Balance checks and can cause fall damage as well.

Neither of these are great options, but at least they do what you want.

[daremetoidareyo]

I think my escape artist guide might have some more.

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?555939-Tying-Down-Escapology-An-Escape-Artist-Reference-Guide

The second post.

[Blackhawk748]

It may be slick, but there is no general rule for needing a balance check just because you're walking over a slick surface.




"On a narrow surface or a difficult surface, a failure by 4 or less means you can’t move for 1 round. A failure by 5 or more means you fall. The DC of the Balance check varies with the surface, as detailed on the following table."

Rules Compendium, page 90


Narrow surfaces means anything less than 12 inches wide. Difficult surfaces are: uneven flagstone; hewn stone floors; sloped or angled floors; moving surfaces; or violently moving surfaces. Thus, unless specifically stated as causing Balance checks, something that makes a surface slippery doesn't do anything unless it is already a narrow or difficult surface.

I'll caveat that by pointing out that uneven flagstone and hewn stone floors will account for many surfaces in any sort of dungeon or building, and thus nearly every surface you walk on requires a Balance check. I don't see why hewn stone floors would require Balance checks, and I doubt any DM has ever made someone make a Balance check to walk at half speed over something looks like this:

Well it wouldn't until you throw the oil on it. The floor I work on is erfectly fine until some canola oil gets on it and then I have to actually pay attention or I fall on my ass.

It wouldn't be high, probably just a 10, but remember, if they're inside on stone they'd be wearing leather-soled shoes and as such have no grip. If they have hobnailed shoes they'd have even less grip, so I would assume that slick rocks would be a serious issue.

[SirNibbles]

Well it wouldn't until you throw the oil on it. The floor I work on is perfectly fine until some canola oil gets on it and then I have to actually pay attention or I fall on my ass.

It wouldn't be high, probably just a 10, but remember, if they're inside on stone they'd be wearing leather-soled shoes and as such have no grip. If they have hobnailed shoes they'd have even less grip, so I would assume that slick rocks would be a serious issue.

I totally agree that it would make it possible for you to fall over, just not in D&D 3.5 by RAW (unless you're talking about hewn stone floors). Pretty much everything is slippery when wet and can make you fall over, even dirt (mud).

Balance could definitely do with a rework, as could several other skills and rules.

[daremetoidareyo]

I totally agree that it would make it possible for you to fall over, just not in D&D 3.5 by RAW (unless you're talking about hewn stone floors). Pretty much everything is slippery when wet and can make you fall over, even dirt (mud).

Balance could definitely do with a rework, as could several other skills and rules.

You know, that got me thinking that balance is redundant with reflex saves. It might be worth it to just change the balance skill points to add a +1 to reflex saves pertaining to balance per 4 skill ranks. And then use a cumulative size penalty for sizes above medium for balance-based reflex saves.

[SirNibbles]

And then use a cumulative size penalty for sizes above medium for balance-based reflex saves.

Is there currently any RAW regarding size and balance (besides Dexterity adjustment for sizes)? It's under 12 inches for a surface to be narrow, but that should probably change for smaller and larger creatures. I can't imagine a Colossal creature not needing to balance on a 5 foot wide walkway. The reverse is true, with a tiny creature easily being able to scurry along an 8 inch wide path.

[Blackhawk748]

I totally agree that it would make it possible for you to fall over, just not in D&D 3.5 by RAW (unless you're talking about hewn stone floors). Pretty much everything is slippery when wet and can make you fall over, even dirt (mud).

Balance could definitely do with a rework, as could several other skills and rules.

As someone pointed out upthread, things do what they do in real life even if the rules don't state it. That's RAW. They did that so they wouldn't have to put in every eventuality like this. Also because maybe the oil your character is using is thinned pine resin or something weird that isn't super slippery. Well then it wouldn't work. Olive oil or something similar? Ya, slippery and they left it open for the DM to make that call.

[SirNibbles]

As someone pointed out upthread, things do what they do in real life even if the rules don't state it. That's RAW.

What's the source for that rule? What I've found after skimming through the DMG, PHB, and Rules Compendium generally says the opposite.





"Ironically, the place where many RPG systems break down is when they attempt to simulate actions and aspects of the 'real world.' Put simply, no game can perfectly simulate reality. If it did, it wouldn’t be a game any more, it’d be real life. (Who wants to buy a copy of that?) Abstraction is the game player’s (and game designer’s) best friend. It lets us recreate an endless array of activities we’d never be able to (or want to) accomplish in real life. What’s more, it lets us do so quickly and efficiently, maximizing the play and minimizing the rule-searching. When it’s done right, abstraction actually improves our immersion into the game’s own version of reality. Actions within the game flow so naturally and intuitively that we forget that we’re bounded by rules at all."


Rules Compendium, page 111

[Gruftzwerg]

As someone pointed out upthread, things do what they do in real life even if the rules don't state it. That's RAW. They did that so they wouldn't have to put in every eventuality like this. Also because maybe the oil your character is using is thinned pine resin or something weird that isn't super slippery. Well then it wouldn't work. Olive oil or something similar? Ya, slippery and they left it open for the DM to make that call.

you see and that is the problem, that we have rules that cover these things up.

A slippery surface made my "mundane means not supported by special rules/items designed for that purpose" only becomes difficult terrain and thus would only be a modifier if you had to roll things like balance/tumble and reduce your movement speed over it. Not more not less. This is the regular rule to handle such things. So the situation ain't that we are missing rules. It more that the rules don't do/allow what you/we had in mind. Sorry, but imho RAW is clear here. What doesn't stop the DM still to houserule such situation from altering the rules. That would be a (imho a fine) houserule, but not RAW.

[Dimers]

Also "for completeness", since we're listing other alt-greases, a Gnome Artificer (MoF) can make a completely nonmagical device that replicates the spell.