A little Help with Template Stacking please ^^

[GrayDeath]

So, in our long running Campaign we have all collected quite a few Templates (and payed them off mostly, 2 were story important and hence free of charge).

Now however a new Player will be joining.

The DM has set the following Limitations: Race LA at most +4. Added Templates all count as "aquired", a total of at most another +3.
Shadowwalker and Chaos Tainted (see Chaositek book, yeah, ouch^^) are freely included.
The sum is reduced by 3 follwing the amount he can have bought off till now (we are using a different buyoff rule, Buyoffs are possible at Levels 5, 10, 15, 19 and 21.).

He wants to play either a Paladinesque Character (meaning a strongly devoted guy with good sayves and smacking Close combat) or a Barbarianesque Guy.

What Race/Templates would you suggest under these circumstances?
Ideally both fluffwise cool/fitting and powerful.

Oh, and he cannot have any that require him to be Good anything. The group consists of lawful Evil, neutral Evil and true Neutral Characters who all have a means dont matter" attitude with few true limitations.

Thanks in advance!

[Khedrac]

I'm not a good person to suggest races and templates, but a Crusader would be a good choice of class for what he wants without requiring him to be good.

Looking at the ToB prestige clases may also help dictate the base race.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

So you've got a max +4 LA race and a max +3 LA of templates, all of which is totaled and then reduced by -3, and the remainder can be bought off?
Chaositek is a 3rd party book that I doubt many people will have, so I don't think anyone but you will know what Chaos Tainted does.


Half-Goristro (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060630a) is a half-fiend variant, it's still +4 LA but half-fiend can be gradually gained (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/arch/sp) so he can say he started with +3 of it and gained the other one point of LA later one. It gives either Str +8 and Con +8, or Str +8, Con +6, and Cha +2, along with +5 natural armor, DR, SR, resistances, spell-like abilities, and a size increase (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#sizeIncreases). It also grants two natural slam attacks, each of which add 1.5x Str to damage. If the base creature's type is aberration, dragon, elemental, magical beast, or plant, he can get the feat Rapidstrike and the improved version in the Draconomicon to get iterative attacks with those.


He could get the Tauric Creature template (MM2, SS) which is a +3 LA. That combines a small or medium humanoid or monstrous humanoid with a medium or large animal, magical beast, or vermin that has at least four legs. Basically a centaur that doesn't necessarily use a human, and doesn't necessarily use a horse. Only the humanoid portion's level adjustment is counted, so make the magical beast portion a Lammasu (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lammasu.htm) and he keeps everything but its mental stats, its alignment, and its vision, but doesn't take its level adjustment. For the humanoid portion use a Lesser Aasimar from PGtF, it's identical to the MM Aasimar but it has no LA and its creature type is humanoid instead of outsider. He'll get the Lammasu's HD and Cleric spellcasting, along with its domains, and if he takes a level of Cleric he'll get two more domains. He could then take Prestige Paladin (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/prestigiousCharacterClasses.htm#prestigePaladin) (possibly using a nongood variant (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#paladinVariantsFreedom SlaughterAndTyranny)), and he shouldn't even need Mounted Combat given his form (per the Zelekhut (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/inevitable.htm#zelekhut) entry on feats).

[NotASpiderSwarm]

Half-Ogre, Races of Destiny. +6 Str, +2 Con, +4 nat armor, Large, -2 to Dex/Cha/Int. All for just +2 LA. Not sure what templates would go well with it, but it's worth pointing out that Half-Dragons get flight when Large. Toss in 1 level of Barbarian before he goes Crusader for a truly silly Str score.

[Noxangelo]

AFB but unless its been updated or FAQ'ed, feral (+1LA) half-Minotaur (+1LA) half-ogre (+0LA due to being large from half-minotaur, also legal to be both if memory serves)

which gets you +20STR and 2: 2d6 claw attacks and a bunch of other stuff for the small price of +2LA

the downside: you now have animal intelligence at best. but thats ok, you can pick up symbiotic (+1LA) and pick a guest of small or smaller size with high mental stats and be one of the smartest people in your group all while wrestling dragons.

Ps. don't actually take that to the table unless you have a death wish.

[ExLibrisMortis]

I'd honestly just play a dragon. Red wyrmling Wyrm of War, some crusader levels, half-balor for Large size, done: one Disciple of Ashardalon.

There's always a stack of half-dragon mineral warrior half-ogre half-minotaur human, or something. It's a bit too brutish, but it does work pretty well.

[GrayDeath]

OK, so no suggestions aside from the same old same old "Stack Strength Templates"...too bad.

Still, hell only join enxt weekend, so if someone has some inspired Idea, I am still all ears....erh, Eyes. ^^

[ZamielVanWeber]

Since they are acquired, mineral warrior then half-fey to keep the flight. The stat mods are largely a wash, but he will get solid DR, excellent non-magical flight, and a pile of SLAs that are, situationally, very good.

IIRC stat mods will be +2/+2/+2/-2/+0/+2. Not bad for a crusader, not bad at all but small given the parameters.

As for race the simple athasian human is boring but amazing and will grant more magical oomph alongside some lovely stat patching.

[NotASpiderSwarm]

OK, so no suggestions aside from the same old same old "Stack Strength Templates"...too bad.

Still, hell only join enxt weekend, so if someone has some inspired Idea, I am still all ears....erh, Eyes. ^^Problem is, the majority of Templates/LA races are pretty meh until you get into truly high ECLs. Anything unique and fun WOTC decided deserved roughly a +7 LA. There's exceptions that actually play different(Muckdweller, Wyrmling Brass Dragon, Pixie), but they're all better for casters or rogues than fighters. All the melee templates are some combination of large size, natural attacks, movement modes, and +Str. It all really comes down to what exactly you're looking for. (I always want shapeshifting for an easy entry into Warshaper, but Lycanthrope is more expensive than you wanted and Chameleon is available at LA 0, so really there's no point)

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

OK, so no suggestions aside from the same old same old "Stack Strength Templates"...too bad.

Still, hell only join enxt weekend, so if someone has some inspired Idea, I am still all ears....erh, Eyes. ^^

You said he wants to play a Paladin-type or Barbarian-type character, both of those tend to hit things in melee, so strength is important for them.

Did you see my Tauric Creature + Lammasu suggestion? That gets innate Cleric spellcasting with full BAB, perfect for taking Prestige Paladin, along with flight, pounce, claw and rake attacks, able to do mounted charge attacks without a mount, spell-like abilities, etc. Get the Charging Smite ACF for Paladin or maybe even Underdark Knight and it should be perfect for the Paladin-type build he wants.

There are plenty of interesting race + template combinations, but the ones that would have a lot of synergy with what he wants to play typically all get a high Str bonus.

If he wants to make a sneaky character, he could go with a Marrulurk in Sandstorm (small size, 3 HD, +1 LA), add one level of the Half-Fiend template class (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20031010a) (you're never forced to keep taking those (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20030824a)) for another +1 LA, which gets a few bonuses and makes you an Outsider. That automatically gives you eight base skill points for each of your racial HD, x4 on the first one of course, and use the variant Half-Fiend (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060630a) guidelines to say his fiendish parent was a Babau (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/demon.htm#babau) to gain all the skills it has listed as class skills for his racial HD. Throw on Shadow Creature in Lords of Madness for another +2 LA and he's the sneakiest thing around. But that's not a Barbarian or Paladin, so it's probably not something he'd be into.

A Natural Lycanthrope (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lycanthrope.htm) has a +3 LA, so use a Desmodu Hunting Bat (MM2) for the base animal and probably Half-Ogre in Races of Destiny for the base creature. That would get Str +10, Dex +12, Con +4, Int -2, Wis +2, Cha -2 in hybrid or animal form, and should fight in hybridform for the large size and reach. He has four animal HD, he can go Barbarian 1 with Whirling Frenzy (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/classFeatureVariants.htm#rageVariantWhirlingFrenzy ) and then take four levels of Warshaper in CW to get some absurd bonuses whenever he's in his hybrid or animal form. Take Combat Reflexes, probably Extra Rage, and maybe take a second level of Barbarian for Wolf Totem to get Improved Trip.

[GrayDeath]

I asked.

The Lammasu, while I would immedeately paly, is not to his liking.

At least he has decided now that he wants:

2 legs, 2 arms, one Head, but otherwise not necessarily humanoid Race, Class paladin, and some form of Spell Resistance.

He does not want to be damagingly stupid either, so the usual stack of Feral+Halfminotaur or JMineral W. is out.

A little late, but there it is.

Open to more suggestions. :)

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

At least he has decided now that he wants:

2 legs, 2 arms, one Head, but otherwise not necessarily humanoid Race, Class paladin, and some form of Spell Resistance.

PHB Paladin? A non-LG variant (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#paladinVariantsFreedom SlaughterAndTyranny)? Prestige Paladin (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/prestigiousCharacterClasses.htm#prestigePaladin)? Does it matter?

Medium size? Large size? Natural weapons at all?

What's the starting level, and what level do you reasonably expect to reach on these characters?

[Rebel7284]

Templates:
- Spellwarped Creature gives a bonus to several stats (Str +4, Dex +2, Con +4, Int +4) , an interesting form of spell resistance, is usually evil and is exactly LA+3 and can be applies to pretty much anything. So seems like a perfect fit for this character.
- Obah-Blessed: Lots of extra arms are fun. +4 Arms = +3LA
- Fire-Souled: Grants Leadership and a few other useful things... but Leadership... +3LA

As far as base race:
Anthropomorphic Baleen Whale (SS): 3HD, 0 LA: Excellent stats. Especially flavorful for some sort of bard-sader or bard-blade because singing whale...
Half-ogre (RoD): +2LA: Less awkward looking large race than the whales. Also the races of destiny version is way more balanced than those dragon magazine ones.
Karsite (ToM): +2LA: A nice antimagic race with a different sort of fun spell resistance and some magic-draining attacks.
Stonechild (RoS) 2HD, +4LA: Pretty obscure race and not terribly exciting, but exactly 4LA and excellent bonuses to your combat stats.
Various Dragons: Steel dragons are good gishes.
Kaorti: 2HD, +2LA: Kaorti Resin makes some GOOD weapons.
Lumi: 2 HD, +2 LA: Combine with Lernaean Creature for immunity to damage for the LOLz. Clearly run this past the DM first...
Black Ethergaunt: 16HD, +4LA: Probably won't fly, but technically this is the best LA +4 Race in the game.
Warforged Charger: 4HD +4LA: Some fun options out there for Warforged.

Also, this thread is very useful: https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?401132-Lists-of-Every-Playable-Monster-by-ECL

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Nongood variant Paladin:
Drow Elf is +2 LA, gets Dex +2, Con -2, Int +2, Cha +2, Spell Resistance 11+level, etc.
Lolth-Touched (MMIV) is +1 LA, gets Str +6, Con +6, +4 hide and move silently, and immunity to fear effects.
From there add another +2 LA worth of templates (Feral + Half-Minotaur would be ideal) to get it up to speed.
That would be large size for a total of Str +22, Dex -2, Con +12, Int -4, Wis +2, Cha +4, +10 natural armor, and 50 ft. land speed.


Any alignment:
Dragonkin (Draconomicon) is +2 LA, but has seven racial HD (with good BAB and two good saves). It's a large size humanoid with wings and absurdly good ability score bonuses.
Spellwarped (MM3) is +3 LA, also gives amazing ability score bonuses, and gives SR with a bonus whenever a spell is resisted.
This gets a total of Str +12, Dex +4, Con +6, Int +4, Wis +4, Cha +2, +9 natural armor, 20 ft. land speed but 40 ft. fly with good maneuverability.


Nongood Extraplanar Outsider:
Shadurakul (Fiend Folio, under Canomorph) is a Shadow Mastiff (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/shadowMastiff.htm) that can take a humanoid form. Its a +4 LA with four Outsider hit dice, it gets Str +6, Dex +2, Con +6, Int -2, Wis +2, Cha +2, along with the amazing Shadow Blend ability. Keep in mind that the example given has six levels of Fighter.
For SR, Phrenic (+2 LA) plus Feral (+1 LA), assuming the humanoid form also gets everything that grants (which it should).
Since its natural form is that of a Shadow Mastiff, if you take Warshaper (CW) you'll get the bonuses it provides while in humanoid form.

[GrayDeath]

PHB Paladin? A non-LG variant (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#paladinVariantsFreedom SlaughterAndTyranny)? Prestige Paladin (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/prestigiousCharacterClasses.htm#prestigePaladin)? Does it matter?

Medium size? Large size? Natural weapons at all?

What's the starting level, and what level do you reasonably expect to reach on these characters?

Sorry, I thought I had clarified in the OP.

We are at Level 15 atm, and fully expect to go to 20 and beyond.

And as I wrote Paladinesque, as the Group is everything but Good. ;)

Doesnt matter if its regular, prestige, or something in between.

The Outsider mastiff, while cool, doesnt fit his "want to BE 2armed/3legged mostly humanoid", sadly.

Didnt think of Bhaleen Whale, gonna ask him if he wants to be a Landwhale ^^

Thanks for your Input, all, and keep it coming!