Your personal experience with: the wizard schools

[Sindal]

Hi everyone

So this is more out of pure curiosity.
Calling all peoples that have played a wizard.

1) which wizard school did you select as your subclass(s)? Why?
2) what was your experience playing it? Did you enjoy the perks or did they make you feel thematic?

I've never played one so I'm curious how each one 'feels' since often wizards are just referred as to as a class on the whole.

Are the necromancers feeling DEADly? Are the abjurrurs anti threat paragons?

[Bobthewizard]

Other than a few one-shots, I've mostly played low to mid levels. At those levels most of the subclasses play about the same. Some have better 2nd and 6th level abilities, but for the most part, none of those abilities are as important as spell casting itself. I'm always going to take shield and absorb elements, at least one of web, suggestion or levitate, counterspell and either hypnotic pattern or fear.

The only exception to this for me is evocation. Sculpt spells pushes me to take AOE blast spells that I can cast on top of my party.

This changes quite bit at high levels. Illusionists really change their tactics. Enchanters use their auto twinned enchantment spells, conjurers have more useful summons, and evoker's switch to magic missile as their go to spell.

But if you are playing a real campaign starting at level 1, choosing to be a wizard is more important than which subclass you choose.

[Eldariel]

Hi everyone

So this is more out of pure curiosity.
Calling all peoples that have played a wizard.

1) which wizard school did you select as your subclass(s)? Why?
2) what was your experience playing it? Did you enjoy the perks or did they make you feel thematic?

I've never played one so I'm curious how each one 'feels' since often wizards are just referred as to as a class on the whole.

Are the necromancers feeling DEADly? Are the abjurrurs anti threat paragons?

I've played most of them. Let's go through them in order:
- Abjuration: The Tank. This is most often used for various more martial Wizards as the ability to have a shield of regenerating temporary HP from level 2 is great. On level 10 they get close to autosucceeding on dispel and counter checks, which feels very abjurery (4+5 = +9 for very nice chances of success). The 6th level ability is kinda cool too. Overall, mostly this is being a tank and thus Abjurers are more likely to want to be in the thick of things. Doesn't perhaps feel that much like a protective Wizard as an actual Gish
- Bladesinger: The Gish. It mostly realises its power fantasy pretty well, being both a durable, hard-to-kill martial combatant and a full spellcaster. Higher up the martial side falls off and the castery side comes to the fore (aside from Tenser's), as spells just outpace martial combat in general. Still, being able to pump your AC is pretty good in a bounded accuracy system. It also conveniently almost autohits Concentration DCs pretty early.
- Conjurer: One I haven't really played yet, it looks pretty cool. Benign Transposition was one of my favourite spells in 3e and getting it as a class ability early in nice. Not being able to lose Concentration on Conjurations makes many of the summons at your disposal much more reliable and that's extra nice. Conjuration has always had its identity crisis, being the teleporter and the summoner and the creator. The most important features here definitely cater to the summoning and teleporting, less so to creation (the level 2 ability is quite versatile though, but it doesn't really do anything low level spells couldn't).
- Divination: The save-or-suck machine. This is funny in that it doesn't really do too much of what it advertises but it does have a thematic, immensely powerful ability from level 2 up. The level 6 ability, Expert Divination, does feel very divinery and it's actually really cool but the other abilities feel like Preordination more than anything. That said, it's really powerful and quite fun to play, especially if the DM uses the UA that adds various Divinations to the Wizard list.
- Enchanter: Definitely fits its power fantasy, being both kind of social beast and surprisingly good in combat. Hypnotic Gaze has a painfully short range but it's a Concentration-free disable. Free avoiding of an attack, free Twin on enchantments and free mind****ery on level 14 gives this a lot of value (sadly memory alteration only comes on level 14; up until that point, Charming is still quite risky).
- Evoker: Fairly solid at what it does. Sculpt Spell, Empowered Evocation and Overchannel all make it especially good at blowing things up, which is what you'd expect out of an Evoker. Simple, but quite effective.
- Illusionist: Perfect for its intended purpose! Getting extra mileage out of the best cantrip in Minor Illusion (and a free cantrip in general) is superb, malleable illusions is really useful for that particular ability, and being able to autonegate an attack is just insane. It's an ability that basically doesn't exist in 5e. Of course, what you're really here for is Illusory Reality, which is an absurd ability, but unfortunately comes so late. Then again, if it came any earlier it would be broken beyond belief. Being able to cast Mirage Arcana, shape anything you want out of it and make it reality at will is just bonkers. If Evoker is simple but effective, Illusion is the most complexity you can possibly imagine but also incredibly effective. The defensive ability on level 10 is a nice bonus.
- Necromancer: You're basically here for only one ability: the level 6 ability to produce extra dead and give them bonuses to everything is great, enhancing an already absurd spell even further. Command Undead is also something you have a hard time getting in this edition. Overall, Necromancer does live up to its power fantasy with two great abilities, though it does start off slow and the other two are kinda mediocre.
- Transmuter: It doesn't really feel like a Transmuter as such. You don't spend that much time changing stuff into different stuff and your spells to that end aren't meaningfully augment. It's more like an Alchemist. It does do the Philosopher's Stone thing and it does that well. But the self-shifting is really restricted and comes late, the level 2 ability is cool but kinda weak, the level 6 ability is great for gaining Proficiency in Con-saves and overall, it just buffs you.
- War Wizard: Very good early on. Very boring though. It doesn't do anything. It just gives you static bonuses to things. You get +Int to Initiative (Great!), a Pseudoshield for AC or Saves (the latter is very good!), permanent AC and Concentration bonus (great!) and two random, weak abilities. Overall, it doesn't do anything but it pumps your numbers making it incredibly powerful but I have no clue what about this is supposed to be related to War Wizardry.

[Zetakya]

The only one I can personally attest to is Diviner, which made for excellent RP hooks for an explorer/archaeologist Wizard whose aims were to seek out lost magic from ancient civilisations.

[Democratus]

Diviners make DMs cry. :)

Being able to declare that an enemy auto-fails a save against Banish can end a fight real soon.

[Eldariel]

Diviners make DMs cry. :)

Being able to declare that an enemy auto-fails a save against Banish can end a fight real soon.

Already from level 3, autofailing against Levitate or Suggestion can put things out of the fight hard. Hell, on level 1, Hideous Laughter is an efficient combo (though of course, restricted in target options). Level 7 also brings Polymorph to the mix; just Polymorph > Portent that Pit Fiend or Solar you really don't like into a frog, deposit them in some deep hole or whatever, fill said hole and leave the frog there to suffocate, and go back to being a level 7 Wizard.

[Toofey]

not quite op. but I have found that when playing with DMs who require you to spend money on transcribing spells etc... the specialties all feel more like their specialties because the discount to transcribing becomes a bigger deal.

[Mr Adventurer]

I'm playing a Conjurer right now, started at level 3 and we are at level 5 now. I have to say that I don't feel much like a conjurer at all. Nothing rewards me for casting conjuration spells. I have tried to pick more conjuration spells for my spell book but every damn one seems to need concentration so it's tricky. I've been disappointed with Flaming Sphere.

I don't believe I've used my Minor Conjuration ability even once, though I was looking forward to doing so. Does anyone have any good tips or stories on that?

Hopefully at level 6 the frequent teleporting will start to help.

[Willie the Duck]

So this is more out of pure curiosity.
Calling all peoples that have played a wizard.

1) which wizard school did you select as your subclass(s)? Why?
2) what was your experience playing it? Did you enjoy the perks or did they make you feel thematic?

I've never played one so I'm curious how each one 'feels' since often wizards are just referred as to as a class on the whole.

Are the necromancers feeling DEADly? Are the abjurrurs anti threat paragons?

Note:This is mostly based on gaming from levels ~1-12.
Of all the schools, the only ones that radically change playstyle are Evoker and Bladesinger.

Bladesinger definitely makes you a lot better at handling being a wizard on the front line (or in a group where the rear line is particularly vulnerable). If you tried playing another type of wizard before and just got chewed to pieces (either killed or spent so much time running away, etc. that it just wasn't fun), this is the school to try next. Note that it does not turn you into a gish in and of itself.

Evokers are for anyone whose idea of having fun while playing a wizard is throwing around a bunch of fireballs and magic missiles. Kord knows there are a lot of treatises on how direct damage is only rarely the best use of a spell slot, and just as many gamers out there saying, "yes, and...?" If fireball was what you were going to be doing anyways, not hitting the party frontliner in the process is too good to pass up. Note also that the wording of Magic Missile reads such that each dart doesn't roll separately for damage, so the 10th level Evoker ability Empowered Evocation would add <Int Mod> damage to each dart. I've never met a playgroup in the wild that hew to that, however.

The rest of them range from 'nice' to 'may be useful in the right campaign.' Abjurer is a nice little cushion of extra (temporary) hit points and would seem like a great thing, but the total is going to be less than taking the Toughness feat in many cases (their 10th level ability is more impactful...if you play in tier 3+4 significantly). I disagree that Diviners make DMs cry. Bounded accuracy gives greater weight to the d20 roll, and thus you cannot assume that a given roll be successful or unsuccessful (and thus any DM who put themselves in the position of having their night ruined by a PC making a save or a monster failing one was going to have their night ruined eventual anyways). It is, however, an ability that any build will find useful, and so I consider it a go-to school if you don't have something else specifically in mind. The rest can be useful, but overall their effect is small compared to the overall variability in playing a wizard.


I'm playing a Conjurer right now, started at level 3 and we are at level 5 now. I have to say that I don't feel much like a conjurer at all. Nothing rewards me for casting conjuration spells.

That's generally how most schools feel.

[Grey Watcher]

I had a lot of fun as an Abjurer (admittedly the only Wizard I've played). Having a knack for locking down enemy threats was super fun. One encounter had us squaring off against a pair of sentient golems. I was able to trap one in a Globe of Invulnerability while tying up the other one with Counterspells and such. Something very smugly satisfying about just being able to go "Nope!"

[Keravath]

I've enjoyed playing my 1 knowledge cleric/9 evoker wizard character.

Sculpt spell makes it much easier to drop evocation spells exactly where they will do the most good. I don't need to worry about friendly fire when the group is being over run or surrounded. I think it has resulted in a 20-50% increase in the efficiency of the AoE evocation spells depending on the specifics of the encounter.

The level 6 ability when combined with Toll the Dead gives a very reliable if not huge amount of damage since any target will still take half damage on a failed save. The ability also says "your cantrip" and not "your wizard cantrip" so I can also combine it with Sacred Flame from cleric to do reliable (if small) radiant damage every turn which can be useful against specific targets.

The rest of the evoker abilities add to the playstyle so overall it seems like one of the better wizard archetypes.

[Keravath]

I had a lot of fun as an Abjurer (admittedly the only Wizard I've played). Having a knack for locking down enemy threats was super fun. One encounter had us squaring off against a pair of sentient golems. I was able to trap one in a Globe of Invulnerability while tying up the other one with Counterspells and such. Something very smugly satisfying about just being able to go "Nope!"

Cool. Though I am trying to figure out how you could trap a golem with Globe of Invulnerability or tie them up with Counterspells. Was it a homebrewed creature?

[Sigreid]

Of the wizards I've played, Evoker was the one most appreciated by the group. The party often finds themselves in battles with one or two powerful foes with weaker support. Dropping a fireball, or sometimes just shatter, to eliminate the weaker support (I like to call it clearing the ground) allows the rest of the party to focus on the more powerful foes that your not killing with spells without using way too many slots. As an evoker, you get to do this without worrying about your party's position; and you still get to do all the other wizard things when appropriate.

[CBAnaesthesia]

The rest of them range from 'nice' to 'may be useful in the right campaign.' Abjurer is a nice little cushion of extra (temporary) hit points and would seem like a great thing, but the total is going to be less than taking the Toughness feat in many cases.

While this is true, the HP from your Arcane Ward is way easier to heal than normal HP in my experience. Every time you Counterspell you top up your ward by 6 HP (or more, if you upcast it), for example. Because of that, I find that in general the ward HP is better than just boosting your maximum HP, unless you have some resistances to damage types because those don't apply to your ward. Being able to share the ward HP at level 6 has been very helpful in my game as well.

I'd also say that it incentivizes Abjurers to cast Abjuration spells more often, so it may change your playstyle but YMMV of course.

[jmartkdr]

I'm currently playing a conjurer. I thought it would be cool to summon stuff.

If you asked the other players in the game, I think maybe one would realize that I'm a conjurer, since I rarely get a chance to summon stuff anyways, and even when I do it's not like it's something any wizard couldn't have done.

[Segev]

I've played most of them. Let's go through them in order:
(...)
- Illusionist: Perfect for its intended purpose! Getting extra mileage out of the best cantrip in Minor Illusion (and a free cantrip in general) is superb, malleable illusions is really useful for that particular ability, and being able to autonegate an attack is just insane. It's an ability that basically doesn't exist in 5e. Of course, what you're really here for is Illusory Reality, which is an absurd ability, but unfortunately comes so late. Then again, if it came any earlier it would be broken beyond belief. Being able to cast Mirage Arcana, shape anything you want out of it and make it reality at will is just bonkers. If Evoker is simple but effective, Illusion is the most complexity you can possibly imagine but also incredibly effective. The defensive ability on level 10 is a nice bonus.
- Necromancer: You're basically here for only one ability: the level 6 ability to produce extra dead and give them bonuses to everything is great, enhancing an already absurd spell even further. Command Undead is also something you have a hard time getting in this edition. Overall, Necromancer does live up to its power fantasy with two great abilities, though it does start off slow and the other two are kinda mediocre.

I agree with or have nothing to argue with in most of your assessment, but wanted to comment on these two.

On the Necromancer, I actually do agree, but I feel it warrants reiteration just how little it feels like anything but a generic wizard until you get to level 6. Moreover, it has a counterintuitive incentive to delay picking up animate dead, because you get it for free on top of your 2 free picks for level 6 if you don't have it, but nothing in the rules say you get a "make-up" spell if you took it at 5th level. (I doubt you'd have trouble talking a DM into house ruling you a freebie, though.) The level 2-5 problem led me to making this thread (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?609099-Necromancy-and-Minionmancy-before-level-5), which includes a spell or two and a couple of thoughts on alternate level 2 features that I think would make the subclass more Necromancer-y. Balance not guaranteed, but I think at the least the spell is okay.


On the illusionist, I strongly disagree with the ordering of importance of subclass features. First off, the Improved Minor Illusion is actually harder to make work out than you might think, since the image function can only make objects, which removes the seemingly-obvious synnergy of the sound being a match for what the image is doing. Not 100% removes, depending on your DM's permissiveness for objects and motion, but reduces at the least. It does mean you can have an image in one spot and a sound in another, which...has its own utilities, but will be situational.

Secondly, while Illusory Reailty definitely looks like the most powerful ability, it isn't. Malleable Illusions gets pretty insane (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?477658-Illusionist-Tricks/), especially once you get 6th level spell slots and can make permanent illusions. It's Malleable Illusions that will let the Illusionist eventually surpass the Warlock who takes one or two Invocations for master of the illusory arts.

[Sudsboy]

I play an Abjuration Wizard, currently at level 15. I love the character, and I think he is my favorite in 5e. At lower levels the arcane ward comes in very handy, and it is still useful in higher level play, if only to prevent concentration checks on a big hit. I get a lot of mileage out of adding my proficiency bonus to counterspell checks, as my DM loves spellcasting bad guys (the reason I selected this subclass).

My experience hasn't been particularly tanky or gishy. I play him as a tactical leader/controller and try to avoid base to base contact. Roleplaying-wise, I've taken the protection magic theme and applied it to his overall goals. He inherited an old tower from his deceased master, and a small city has sprung up around it as we offer protection to various creatures and humanoids in the area. We are an island of misfit toys, with a fey sector, a large contingent of dragonborn, a small flock of griffons, a chapter house of paladins lead by a tiefling, and other various weirdos. Great fun.

[Grey Watcher]

Cool. Though I am trying to figure out how you could trap a golem with Globe of Invulnerability or tie them up with Counterspells. Was it a homebrewed creature?

Might've technically been a Warforged? I don't remember, but I'm pretty sure it (she?) was Medium-sized, so it worked. And yeah, the other one was a caster of some kind, if I remember correctly. (Again, whatever they were, they were sentient, so they could do things like learn wizardry.) But regardless, my general shtick was to tie up casters with counterspells and otherwise throw up shields, wards, and other means of blocking Bad StuffTM.

[Segev]

Might've technically been a Warforged? I don't remember, but I'm pretty sure it (she?) was Medium-sized, so it worked. And yeah, the other one was a caster of some kind, if I remember correctly. (Again, whatever they were, they were sentient, so they could do things like learn wizardry.) But regardless, my general shtick was to tie up casters with counterspells and otherwise throw up shields, wards, and other means of blocking Bad StuffTM.

Did you mean resilient sphere (http://5e.d20srd.org/srd/spells/resilientSphere.htm)? A globe of invulnerability (http://5e.d20srd.org/srd/spells/globeOfInvulnerability.htm) protects against magic, but doesn't trap anything.

(Actually, I'm pretty sure the fact that globe of invulnerability is immobile is new to 5e, too; I think it used to move with you.)

[Grey Watcher]

Did you mean resilient sphere (http://5e.d20srd.org/srd/spells/resilientSphere.htm)? A globe of invulnerability (http://5e.d20srd.org/srd/spells/globeOfInvulnerability.htm) protects against magic, but doesn't trap anything.

(Actually, I'm pretty sure the fact that globe of invulnerability is immobile is new to 5e, too; I think it used to move with you.)

Yeah, I was definitely thinking of Resilient Sphere. Just remembered the wrong name, apparently.

[Willie the Duck]

While this is true, the HP from your Arcane Ward is way easier to heal than normal HP in my experience. Every time you Counterspell you top up your ward by 6 HP (or more, if you upcast it), for example. Because of that, I find that in general the ward HP is better than just boosting your maximum HP, unless you have some resistances to damage types because those don't apply to your ward. Being able to share the ward HP at level 6 has been very helpful in my game as well.

I'd also say that it incentivizes Abjurers to cast Abjuration spells more often, so it may change your playstyle but YMMV of course.

There are going to be pros and cons for any such thing. You don't have to heal up temp HP afterwards. OTOH, you don't 'miss out' on regular HP like you do if you cast two abjurations in a row without being damaged in between. Being able to share the tHP is great, but it uses the same action type as some common abjuration spells (Shield and Absorb Elements). Overall, however, my point was not that the ability isn't useful, so much as it is not a huge change in how you play (and of the schools, I've only found Evoker and Bladesinger to do so).

[ZorroGames]

Only played two wizards so far.

AL Mountain Dwarf armored War Wizard. Left the city because he was put in a status of not quite a normal Dwarf and wanted to try out his magic in the “Outside” arena of life. I like the Combat Support role with some combat value for the party.

AL Forest Gnome, Tempest Cleric 2 dip ( well the village, his teacher, and temple were destroyed by hostile Wild Elf types) and eventually found he had arcane abilities. Just into early Tier 2 but looking forward to maximized Lightning bolts. Do not miss Fireball at all like an Evoker would.

Non-AL level 7 Enchanter. Weird starting at level 5.

Enjoy them but Wizards are not in my main classes of interest. That would be Cleric, Fighter, Ranger MCs, Gnome EK.

A lot would depend it you went combat oriented or Treantmonk’s God Wizard in design.

[Necromas]

I'm playing a school of invention wizard right now and it's been pretty fun to work in the flavor. It's a UA option that gives you the ability to craft arcanomechanical armor and 'invent' spells on the fly by rolling on a random table to cast spells you don't have prepared. We haven't hit level 6 yet but at that point they also get an ability to burn low level slots for metamagic-like effects to change damage types or add raw damage.

Mechanically you're just a generalist wizard with a little higher than average AC and the ability to sometimes whip out some odd spells, but I love the artificer-like flavor of being a wizard that works with technology and performs experiments with their magic. I'm even planning to dip artificer and flavor a lot of my spells as gadgets I've built into the mechanical armor.

Also part of the fluff behind the school of invention is that we believe that we were the true first school of wizardry to exist and we claim credit for actually inventing the other individual schools. So you get to tease other wizards.

[NecessaryWeevil]

My only 5e wizard experience was playing an Illusionist to 20, and I basically gave up on the illusion aspect after a few levels because the DM and I had different expectations of illusions. Still enjoyed being a Wizard though.

[Segev]

My only 5e wizard experience was playing an Illusionist to 20, and I basically gave up on the illusion aspect after a few levels because the DM and I had different expectations of illusions. Still enjoyed being a Wizard though.

Ouch. Yeah, that's one of the biggest problems with illusions. It requires the DM to be on board, and even the most willing-to-cooperate DM has to struggle with his own knowledge of the fact that it is, in fact, an illusion, and try not to overthink but also not to under-think the fact that his monsters don't know it.

[fbelanger]

I play an evocation wizard.
Seem nice but rapidly got to take spells from multiple school to be effective.
Wizard by default is a generalist.

[Segev]

I play an evocation wizard.
Seem nice but rapidly got to take spells from multiple school to be effective.
Wizard by default is a generalist.

I think the key lies less in how much the specialty makes you focus on only spells from your school, but more in how the specialty makes your play-style feel like something specializing.

Evokers and Abjurors get their flavor from really rewarding use of their school's effects. Or signature effects, in the Evoker's case; he can fireball his front line without worry, for example, making him far more likely to use the spell than an Illusionist or Transmuter is.

Illusionists, past level 6 or 11, really start to use illusions all the time. They've always got a tool on hand for making the world look, smell, sound, or feel different, and make enemies doubt their senses.

Any wizard can have undead minions past level 5, but the necromancer at 6+ has minions that keep up on the damage front, making his effective to carry around.

Diviner feels more like a generalist, but his signature ability makes him feel like a bit of a know-it-all in the sense that he can smugly declare somebody fails a save.

Transmuter...kinda gets an extra 4th level spell slot, and...well, alchemically changing materials with a lengthy ritual is in flavor, I guess, but isn't going to DO much for play-style.

Conjuror at least can create anything he wants at will, even if it's limited duration and utility.

[TheUser]

Only played -with- an Abjurer not -as- but he took a beating. The counterspell/dispel magic buff at level 10 is amazing spell trading value. Level 3 spells trading up to smash 5th and 6th level spells was great! We never got to see spell resistance in action. Having unlimited level 1/2 spells to recharge the ward out of combat at level 18 seems useful.

Bladesinger is dope. It gets insane AC at early and late levels especially with shield and haste as options. The movespeed makes kiting and finding cover much better. High dex becomes very important if only because losing initiative means you have an early part of the first round where your AC is borked. Also you're hella squishy until level 10. Very MAD so your feat options are extremely limited.

Conjurerers are most fun in tier 1 where making any object is super useful and fun. The swap is nice when you have no means for verbal requirements. But all in all it's very lack luster.

Diviners get a neat little gimmick at level 2 but you don't always get good rolls for portent (which nobody ever talks about). The rest is nice but not game breaking. Seeing invisibility I find especially neat and recycling spell slots from Divination Spells is great.

Enchanter's are very meh. Their level 2 feature is meh, their level 6 directly competes with the shield spell and their level 14 is based off charisma modifier. All in all I just want to play a subtle sorcerer whenever I play one.

Invokers are very fun. They do what they are designed to do and especially take off at level 7-9 when things like dawn and sickening radiance and their massive areas come into play.

Illusion is an endgame monster truck. Malleable Illusions pops off with Creation, Simulacrum, Mirage Arcana and permanent level 6 major illusions. Illusory Reality can make spell components and spell books (Keen Mind); nuff said.

Necromancer's are definitely the most overpowered in tier 2: even a trivial amount of skeletons offsets encounter substantially. It was framed superbly for me very recently; you are investing time and spell slots outside of combat to landslide encounters, no other class has solid concentration free long term summons that can be abused this way. Inured to Undeath has some....questionable interactions but Command Undead is top tier (mummmmmyyyyy loorrrrd or even an ancient white dracolich).

Transmuter: probably the most balanced. All their abilities are super useful. Their stone lasts until they make a new one, which means your simulacrum can make one, give it to someone, die and the stone is useful forever. If you make a new simulacrum it can make another... Obviously most DM's would say no but the potential exists.

[dragoeniex]

I decided to play an Abjurer in our next long game- perhaps ironically- to fit the enthusiastically reckless character I've planned. The absent-minded professor tendencies mixed with a magical obsession makes extra durability great; it means my guy can afford to run into risky spots to get the perfect spell explosion angle more often.

The buffer to occasionally prevent concentration checks is also appreciated. And I haven't seen anyone talking about how the rare-but-life-threatening attacks that lower your maximum hp on hit can be negated by a healthy ward.

On top of letting your arcanomaniac laugh in the face of danger once in a while, the lv 10 and 14 abilities turn him into an anti-mage mage. Perfect for a proud scholar who had studied spells and their components for so long they can recognize and snuff enemy spells at a glance. Or shrug blasts off so you look increasingly unimpressed.

Just scratch some icicles off your glasses while your teammates are still thawing and frown at your opponent. "Well, actually, it's more potent if you create a funnel shape with your hands and speak the verbal portion through that. Allow me to demonstrate."

[col_impact]

War Wizard is a great 2-3 level dip for any class. Their level 2 ability is crazy good. Palladin X/ Warlock 0-3/ War Wizard 2-3 is just insane. Swap Palladin for Fighter if you can't deal with MADness, but I know how to squeeze around MADness.

Evokers are really good, but kinda 'this is too easy' kind of good.

Divination Wizards are really really good, especially in Tier 4. A Simulacrum and a mod reward and you can get 8 portent die to play with. Importantly, with portent die you have power over what the DM can do. The 6th level Divination ability means you will practically never run out of spells.

Illusionists are really powerful, but if you have a DM that always wants to dominate players then your OP abilities will get nerfed. Get to know the rules very well and find a DM who can handle DMing Wizards.

Abjurers are really good at beating other casters, so if that is your thing . . .

I just started up with a Necromancer/Shepherd Druid. So I am looking forward to seeing how that plays out. Reduce, Reuse, Recycle.

[Eldariel]

Diviners get a neat little gimmick at level 2 but you don't always get good rolls for portent (which nobody ever talks about). The rest is nice but not game breaking.

There are no bad rolls for portent. Midrange rolls are autosuccesses on 50/50 tasks, autofails on nonproficient saves, autosuccesses on proficient saves, automisses on attacks against tanks, etc.

High rolls are autosuccesses on non-proficient saves, high difficulty tasks, great initiatives, etc.

Low rolls are autofails on enemy saves, attacks, skills.


All of them are very good when used accordingly. Also, Diviners never fail at scribing spells; just wait 'til you roll high enough and use Portent on the check.

[Ogre Mage]

I have played abjuration, divination and evocation wizards and had good experiences with all of them.

[Mr Adventurer]

There's a check to scribe a spell?

[Eldariel]

There's a check to scribe a spell?

Yeah, if you're copying from a Scroll:
"A wizard spell on a spell scroll can be copied just as spells in spellbooks can be copied. When a spell is copied from a spell scroll, the copier must succeed on an Intelligence (Arcana) check with a DC equal to 10 + the spell's level. If the check succeeds, the spell is successfully copied. Whether the check succeeds or fails, the spell scroll is destroyed." (p. 200 DMG (https://www.dndbeyond.com/magic-items/spell-scroll))

One of those things they didn't think to mention in the class intro, which just says you scribe it with 2 hours and 50 gp /level.

[MaxWilson]

Did you mean resilient sphere (http://5e.d20srd.org/srd/spells/resilientSphere.htm)? A globe of invulnerability (http://5e.d20srd.org/srd/spells/globeOfInvulnerability.htm) protects against magic, but doesn't trap anything.

(Actually, I'm pretty sure the fact that globe of invulnerability is immobile is new to 5e, too; I think it used to move with you.)

It's explicitly immobile in AD&D 2nd edition.



On top of letting your arcanomaniac laugh in the face of danger once in a while, the lv 10 and 14 abilities turn him into an anti-mage mage. Perfect for a proud scholar who had studied spells and their components for so long they can recognize and snuff enemy spells at a glance. Or shrug blasts off so you look increasingly unimpressed.

Just scratch some icicles off your glasses while your teammates are still thawing and frown at your opponent. "Well, actually, it's more potent if you create a funnel shape with your hands and speak the verbal portion through that. Allow me to demonstrate."

I feel like the Abjuror's advantage here is overstated. The thing is, *any* wizard can do what you're describing here. Against dangerous low-level spells like Hold Person, Counterspell is automatic--but it still costs a 3rd level spell slot and your reaction. Against high-level spells, 75% of the time the Abjuror bonus is irrelevant. 25% of time it's enough to turn success into failure. But a high-level caster is just going to Counterspell your Counterspell anyway, so what is the Abjuror bonus for? It's useless against liches and it's useless against swarms of fanatic cultists , so it's useful against... mid-CR monsters, like stopping a Glabrezu's Power Word: Stun slightly more often?

Lore Bards are better than Abjurors at Counterspelling, but it's still always a gamble.

Therefore, Portent is more impactful. If you really need to stop that high-level spell (Feeblemind), it helps to know in advance if your class feature can let you negate it with a saving throw or low-level Counterspell, or if you're going to need to upcast Counterspell to level 8. But an Abjuror would be forced to either spend an 8th level spell slot or take the huge risk of hoping to get a good Counterspell roll.

I've never played a game where I thought, "boy, an Abjuror would have been just the thing to have in this situation!"

[Mr Adventurer]

Yeah, if you're copying from a Scroll:
"A wizard spell on a spell scroll can be copied just as spells in spellbooks can be copied. When a spell is copied from a spell scroll, the copier must succeed on an Intelligence (Arcana) check with a DC equal to 10 + the spell's level. If the check succeeds, the spell is successfully copied. Whether the check succeeds or fails, the spell scroll is destroyed." (p. 200 DMG (https://www.dndbeyond.com/magic-items/spell-scroll))

One of those things they didn't think to mention in the class intro, which just says you scribe it with 2 hours and 50 gp /level.

Ah, I've only done scribing from other spellbooks so far. Thanks

[Eldariel]

II feel like the Abjuror's advantage here is overstated. The thing is, *any* wizard can do what you're describing here. Against dangerous low-level spells like Hold Person, Counterspell is automatic--but it still costs a 3rd level spell slot and your reaction. Against high-level spells, 75% of the time the Abjuror bonus is irrelevant. 25% of time it's enough to turn success into failure. But a high-level caster is just going to Counterspell your Counterspell anyway, so what is the Abjuror bonus for? It's useless against liches and it's useless against swarms of fanatic cultists , so it's useful against... mid-CR monsters, like stopping a Glabrezu's Power Word: Stun slightly more often?

Counterspell against higher level enemies does give you some wiggle room: there's no way for enemy to know what level you're casting the spell on so cast it at level 4 and suddenly a Lich trying to level 3 Counterspell you back will have to roll vs. DC 14, which is certainly failable. If they try to predict that and you used a level 3 Counterspell instead, they will waste an extra spell level for no gain.

[MaxWilson]

Counterspell against higher level enemies does give you some wiggle room: there's no way for enemy to know what level you're casting the spell on so cast it at level 4 and suddenly a Lich trying to level 3 Counterspell you back will have to roll vs. DC 14, which is certainly failable. If they try to predict that and you used a level 3 Counterspell instead, they will waste an extra spell level for no gain.

Liches regain spell slots as a lair action though, up to 8th level, so they can afford to upcast Counterspell more easily than you can. (Yes, I know, they may be in the offensive and not in their lair at all, but then you have a much bigger problem because the DM is playing them proactively--and even then they can always Teleport home for a quick recharge.) They're more likely do to this to you than the reverse.

If you trick a lich into wasting a 4th level spell slot to Counterspell your 3rd level Counterspell against the lich's attempt to Feeblemind the party healer... The lich "wasted" a bit of efficiency, and the party lost their cleric. Not a good trade. Portent would have been more useful.

[Democratus]

Ugh. Counterspell really is a terrible thing.

It reduces wizard battles to a bunch of nothing at all happening - when they used to be spectacular.

Some wizard schools make the wizard better with spells in that school (Evoker). Other schools make the wizard better with spells in other schools (Diviner). I think the former is better design than the latter.

[Segev]

Diviners get a neat little gimmick at level 2 but you don't always get good rolls for portent (which nobody ever talks about). The rest is nice but not game breaking. Seeing invisibility I find especially neat and recycling spell slots from Divination Spells is great.


There are no bad rolls for portent. Midrange rolls are autosuccesses on 50/50 tasks, autofails on nonproficient saves, autosuccesses on proficient saves, automisses on attacks against tanks, etc.
High rolls are autosuccesses on non-proficient saves, high difficulty tasks, great initiatives, etc.
Low rolls are autofails on enemy saves, attacks, skills.

All of them are very good when used accordingly. Also, Diviners never fail at scribing spells; just wait 'til you roll high enough and use Portent on the check.

Indeed, Portent is ALWAYS useful at some point in the day, unless you just don't make many rolls. Any combat will find points where they're useful. The Diviner in my party has forced creatures to fail save-or-suck spells with 11s and even 12s when he's had a reasonable suspicion they had a not-high relevant stat. And "take 10" isn't a thing unless you're a rogue in 5e, but it's still useful for your trained professionals in various skills, and a mid-range Portent can mimic it.


Enchanter's are very meh. Their level 2 feature is meh, their level 6 directly competes with the shield spell and their level 14 is based off charisma modifier. All in all I just want to play a subtle sorcerer whenever I play one.I haven't really played one. The level 2 feature is...lock down one foe in return for your action, which is so-so but often to the party's advantage if used wisely (take down one of the big hitters while the others take out the rest, then finish the heavy hitter off). But I'm not sure how much like "an enchanter" it makes you feel. It never drew me in, that's for sure. So I definitely see your point.

Invokers are very fun. They do what they are designed to do and especially take off at level 7-9 when things like dawn and sickening radiance and their massive areas come into play.


I just started up with a Necromancer/Shepherd Druid. So I am looking forward to seeing how that plays out. Reduce, Reuse, Recycle.

*cough* I believe you mean, "Reduce, Reuse, Reanimate."


It's explicitly immobile in AD&D 2nd edition.Huh. That makes it being a globe so much more interesting than I had previously believed.

Amongst other things, since it doesn't vanish if you leave it, you can leave it hanging around on the battlefield for others to huddle inside.



Ugh. Counterspell really is a terrible thing.

It reduces wizard battles to a bunch of nothing at all happening - when they used to be spectacular.

Some wizard schools make the wizard better with spells in that school (Evoker). Other schools make the wizard better with spells in other schools (Diviner). I think the former is better design than the latter.Diviner is kind-of the "generalist" in the PHB, because it makes EVERYTHING you do as a wizard better.

And you forgot a category: some wizard schools don't do much at all of interest.

There's some room for improvement in a lot of the schools' design.

[Eldariel]

Ugh. Counterspell really is a terrible thing.

It reduces wizard battles to a bunch of nothing at all happening - when they used to be spectacular.

Not my experience, but it does consume at 3rd level slot and reaction from both every round to no practical end unless you use cover or a range of engagement over 60'.

As long as you have both hands free, one for spell materials and the other for Counterspell materials.


It IS convenient that the described flow of events leaves the lich helpless while you unload your 9th level spells on it and watch it cease.

[Segev]

It seems to me that the Abjuror's advantage with counterspell comes in when he casts it with a slightly higher level spell slot. If the enemy doesn't guess right for their own counterspell, they have to roll to take it down. Is that an opposed roll? Does the abjuror's proficiency add in where another wizard's wouldn't?

[MaxWilson]

I haven't really played one. The level 2 feature is...lock down one foe in return for your action, which is so-so but often to the party's advantage if used wisely (take down one of the big hitters while the others take out the rest, then finish the heavy hitter off). But I'm not sure how much like "an enchanter" it makes you feel. It never drew me in, that's for sure. So I definitely see your point.

It's even better than that: disable one enemy with no concentration or spell slot cost, then use your action to keep it disabled until it's prone, grappled, manacled, and all the other PCs have actions readied to hit it simultaneously.

There are times when Hypnotic Gaze is not appropriate because the party is outnumbered, but for an Enchanter with a good AC it's almost better than at-will Hold Monster. No auto crits and no follow-up spells, but also no concerns about save-every-round or losing concentration.


It seems to me that the Abjuror's advantage with counterspell comes in when he casts it with a slightly higher level spell slot. If the enemy doesn't guess right for their own counterspell, they have to roll to take it down. Is that an opposed roll? Does the abjuror's proficiency add in where another wizard's wouldn't?

No, the Abjuror is not the one rolling in that case, the enemy is. No benefit.

[dragoeniex]

I feel like the Abjuror's advantage here is overstated. The thing is, *any* wizard can do what you're describing here. Against dangerous low-level spells like Hold Person, Counterspell is automatic--but it still costs a 3rd level spell slot and your reaction. Against high-level spells, 75% of the time the Abjuror bonus is irrelevant. 25% of time it's enough to turn success into failure. But a high-level caster is just going to Counterspell your Counterspell anyway, so what is the Abjuror bonus for? It's useless against liches and it's useless against swarms of fanatic cultists , so it's useful against... mid-CR monsters, like stopping a Glabrezu's Power Word: Stun slightly more often?

Lore Bards are better than Abjurors at Counterspelling, but it's still always a gamble.

Therefore, Portent is more impactful. If you really need to stop that high-level spell (Feeblemind), it helps to know in advance if your class feature can let you negate it with a saving throw or low-level Counterspell, or if you're going to need to upcast Counterspell to level 8. But an Abjuror would be forced to either spend an 8th level spell slot or take the huge risk of hoping to get a good Counterspell roll.

I've never played a game where I thought, "boy, an Abjuror would have been just the thing to have in this situation!"

I think our difference in opinion comes down to differences in our experience and play groups. I've played two full casters over the last three years in weekly sessions, going from lv 1 - 17 and lv 5 - 20 respectively.

As someone who loves control spells and other methods of disabling enemy offense, Dispel Magic and Counterspell are insta-picks for me. I've also wished I had the abjurer's ability to add their full proficiency to dispel and counter checks in numerous fights. It would have made the difference often.

Parties often have more than one full caster, so it's not uncommon for my group to have a backup counterspeller. The one that didn't, my character nabbed a Staff of Swarming Insects and became impossible for most foes to counter-Counterspell.

The ability also means you should feel safer gambling a lv 3 slot to counter, while your enemy has more reason to cast their own at whatever level they think you're expending. It's a lower-cost way for you to badger them into burning spells.

Dispel Magic often comes up out of combat. And I don't know about you, but I want to hang onto all my high level slots possible when getting the party through a magically-trapped dungeon.

The ability isn't always perfect, but it's very solid and feels great to use.

And that's all before lv 14 with its advantage on all spell saving throws half spell damage. I'm a player that loves mage matches, so that's just lovely.

[Segev]

It's even better than that: disable one enemy with no concentration or spell slot cost, then use your action to keep it disabled until it's prone, grappled, manacled, and all the other PCs have actions readied to hit it simultaneously.

There are times when Hypnotic Gaze is not appropriate because the party is outnumbered, but for an Enchanter with a good AC it's almost better than at-will Hold Monster. No auto crits and no follow-up spells, but also no concerns about save-every-round or losing concentration.Even better, then, if you managed to get a concentration buff (or debuff) up before doing it. Tasha's hideous laughter on one guy and Hypnotic Gaze on another is actually going to be pretty effective!


No, the Abjuror is not the one rolling in that case, the enemy is. No benefit.Hm. Then the benefit is that he can afford a level 3 counterspell to counter an enemy's counterspell even if they cast at a higher level due to having the bonus to their roll, I guess. :smallannoyed:

[MaxWilson]

Dispel Magic often comes up out of combat. And I don't know about you, but I want to hang onto all my high level slots possible when getting the party through a magically-trapped dungeon.

The ability isn't always perfect, but it's very solid and feels great to use.

I'm an extreme cheapskate with spell slots which is why I find Counterspell so painful. :) If I'm facing multiple enemy spellcasters (e.g. 3 CR 4 Neogi Masters), do I *really* want to spend my reaction and a spell slot to get a 50-60% chance at Counterspelling one of their three Hold Person IV spells? An Abjuror would bring that up to 90% but still, even when it works it feels like a failure. I should have found a way to shut them down earlier via e.g. Darkness.

Part of this might be due to the initiative variant I use when I'm running the game (everybody declares then everybody acts, instead of turn-by-turn) or just general differences in playstyle. I'm glad it works well for you.


Even better, then, if you managed to get a concentration buff (or debuff) up before doing it. Tasha's hideous laughter on one guy and Hypnotic Gaze on another is actually going to be pretty effective!

Yeah, you can use it to catch "leakers" after you cast a big crowd control spell. Frankly I've been surprised how effective it is.

Another fun fact is that it doesn't break Invisibility or Sanctuary.

Artillerist 3/Enchanter 2 would be fun.


Hm. Then the benefit is that he can afford a level 3 counterspell to counter an enemy's counterspell even if they cast at a higher level due to having the bonus to their roll, I guess. :smallannoyed:

Yeah, I wish they got something better, like "you can add your proficiency bonus to the effective level of any Counterspell you cast" or "Counterspell doesn't cost your reaction".

[EdenIndustries]

It's even better than that: disable one enemy with no concentration or spell slot cost, then use your action to keep it disabled until it's prone, grappled, manacled, and all the other PCs have actions readied to hit it simultaneously.

There are times when Hypnotic Gaze is not appropriate because the party is outnumbered, but for an Enchanter with a good AC it's almost better than at-will Hold Monster. No auto crits and no follow-up spells, but also no concerns about save-every-round or losing concentration.

This fact made my Enchanter wizard the favourite wizard subclass I've played yet in 5e, which I wasn't expecting. It's a fantastic, resource-less ability that really changes up how you play a Wizard. I can't recommend Enchanters highly enough!

[Segev]

This fact made my Enchanter wizard the favourite wizard subclass I've played yet in 5e, which I wasn't expecting. It's a fantastic, resource-less ability that really changes up how you play a Wizard. I can't recommend Enchanters highly enough!

Does it feel a little weird to be running up into enemies' faces to do this? It seems to me like it would. But I haven't played one, so....

[EdenIndustries]

Does it feel a little weird to be running up into enemies' faces to do this? It seems to me like it would. But I haven't played one, so....

It kind of does, but it's fun to have a reason to do it instead of just hanging back all the time. It's sort of the same feeling as a gish being able to mix it up in melee, but instead of whacking things you're taking them out of the fight by staring into their eyes. And it gets even better when you get the level 6 feature. Then you've got one enemy locked down and you divert other enemy attacks into hitting each other. Talk about control! And then it gets even better with the level 10 feature. Now you lock one enemy down, do a split Hold Person/Hold Monster to lock another 2 down, and you divert the attacks of whoever is left. It's amazing to just wade into battle and mess everyone up so completely!

Plus, you're still a Wizard so if it's not the right time to do all that...then don't! You have a ton of other tricks up your sleeve. That's what makes it so amazing.

[th3g0dc0mp13x]

I played an illusionist wizard from level 4-15.

This wizard works better the higher level you are and the more stealth/exploration/social tiered the game is. Though even then, in combat they are still a wizard.

I found that the ability to do both sound and image on minor illusion quite literally never came up. Whenever I needed that kind of thing it needed to be bigger or a creature. Silent image and Major image were much better for that kind of thing.

Malleable illusions is the most used feature I've ever had. Disguise self being a new disguise every single time you lose sight of your pursuer is awesome. Being able to move a silent image of fog around your group when trying to move through the night. Turning an alleyway into a blocked off location with a wall. Creating a group of guards around you as your travelling. This is all phenomenal. And then you have that special 7th level spell that changes a full mile of terrain. During a vampire fight, make a river around your battleground so that he can't flee. turn a field of troops into a lake during the night. Create a building around you this spell is broken as heck.

Illusory step is wonderful, When a dragon gets a nat20 on their bite attack on you being able to make that miss is the most powerful feeling in the world. Pair this with the lucky feat and your survival ability is much better.

Illusory reality: This requires a lot of forethought and working with your DM to not be a pain with. Some options, Cast tensers transformation>turn the illusory armor on your body into real armor. Turn an image of a wall into a real wall. illusory bridge turned real just in time for it to turn back once the enemies decide to use it. The real object turning back into an illusion is probably the most hidden use for this ability.

Hope that helps.

[col_impact]

I played an illusionist wizard from level 4-15.

This wizard works better the higher level you are and the more stealth/exploration/social tiered the game is. Though even then in combat they are still a wizard.

I found that the ability to do both sound and image on minor illusion quite literally never came up. Whenever I needed that kind of thing it needed to be bigger or a creature. Silent image and Major image were much better for that kind of thing.

Malleable illusions is the most used feature I've ever had. Disguise self being a new disguise every single time you lose sight of your pursuer is awesome. Being able to move a silent image of fog around your group when trying to move through the night. Turning an alleyway into a blocked off location with a wall. Creating a group of guards around you as your travelling. This is all phenomenal. And then you have that special 7th level spell that changes a full mile of terrain. During a vampire fight, make a river around your battleground so that he can't flee. turn a field of troops into a lake during the night. Create a building around you this spell is broken as heck.

Illusory step is wonderful, When a dragon gets a nat20 on their bite attack on you being able to make that miss is the most powerful feeling in the world. Pair this with the lucky feat and your survival ability is much better.

Illusory reality: This requires a lot of forethought and working with your DM to not be a pain with. Some options, Cast tensers transformation>turn the illusory armor on your body into real armor. Turn an image of a wall into a real wall. illusory bridge turned real just in time for it to turn back once the enemies decide to use it. The real object turning back into an illusion is probably the most hidden use for this ability.

Hope that helps.

I wonder if you would have gotten more out of the 2nd level ability if you were gnome sized. I heart the 2nd level ability.

[MaxWilson]

Does it feel a little weird to be running up into enemies' faces to do this? It seems to me like it would. But I haven't played one, so....

It doesn't feel weird if you're a heavily-armored Forge Cleric 1/Enchanter 2. I never had the nerve to try it as a pure Enchanter though, which meant that I never got to use my Hypnotic Pattern at all on that PC.


It kind of does, but it's fun to have a reason to do it instead of just hanging back all the time. It's sort of the same feeling as a gish being able to mix it up in melee, but instead of whacking things you're taking them out of the fight by staring into their eyes. And it gets even better when you get the level 6 feature. Then you've got one enemy locked down and you divert other enemy attacks into hitting each other. Talk about control! And then it gets even better with the level 10 feature. Now you lock one enemy down, do a split Hold Person/Hold Monster to lock another 2 down, and you divert the attacks of whoever is left. It's amazing to just wade into battle and mess everyone up so completely!

Plus, you're still a Wizard so if it's not the right time to do all that...then don't! You have a ton of other tricks up your sleeve. That's what makes it so amazing.

This bit in bold here is a little bit dangerous unless there are at least 3 monsters, because if they hit the guy you're hypnotizing, it breaks your Hypnotic Gaze. All you can do is hope that the DM decides the monster will hit the other monster back instead of attacking you.

Overall I'd say Enchanter tricks are not powerful per se but they are very proactive and fun. Hypnotizing monsters into hitting each other is far more entertaining than ordering three dozen animated skeletons to "kill everything in that dungeon and then come back here" even though the latter is safer and more powerful, especially at level ~9.


Illusory step is wonderful, When a dragon gets a nat20 on their bite attack on you being able to make that miss is the most powerful feeling in the world. Pair this with the lucky feat and your survival ability is much better.

Huh. AFB, but I've always thought you had to declare the usage before the attack roll is made. Never occurred to me others might interpret it to let you see the attack roll first. That makes it much more powerful.

[EdenIndustries]

This bit in bold here is a little bit dangerous unless there are at least 3 monsters, because if they hit the guy you're hypnotizing, it breaks your Hypnotic Gaze. All you can do is hope that the DM decides the monster will hit the other monster back instead of attacking you.

Yeah it's a bit dangerous, but when the situation is right it's absolutely thrilling!



Overall I'd say Enchanter tricks are not powerful per se but they are very proactive and fun. Hypnotizing monsters into hitting each other is far more entertaining than ordering three dozen animated skeletons to "kill everything in that dungeon and then come back here" even though the latter is safer and more powerful, especially at level ~9.

I actually do think they're pretty powerful (granted, not as powerful as your undead army clearing dungeons for you...), but even if they aren't I agree that they're super fun! And being able to switch to the standard wizard schtick at any time makes it just that much better.

[MaxWilson]

I actually do think they're pretty powerful (granted, not as powerful as your undead army clearing dungeons for you...), but even if they aren't I agree that they're super fun! And being able to switch to the standard wizard schtick at any time makes it just that much better.

Sounds like we basically agree. I do think these tricks are pretty powerful for their cost and you'll definitely be pulling your weight even in Deadly encounters, I just don't think they're better per se than casting spells like Wall of Force during combat, or that they're as game-breaking as other things you can do even with any Wizard, e.g. Planar Binding two or three Invisible Stalkers for a month and Mage Armoring them, and during combat throwing spells like Web and Evard's Black Tentacles which they are immune to.

BTW another thing you can potentially do with Hypnotic Gaze is keep a fiend/fey/etc. hypnotized for an hour after combat until someone else in the party finishes casting Planar Binding on it, more than once if necessary.

P.S. The limitation that you can't Hypnotic Gaze a monster after it's already succeeded once on its save is less of a restriction than it seems at first.

[EdenIndustries]

Sounds like we basically agree. I do think these tricks are pretty powerful for their cost and you'll definitely be pulling your weight even in Deadly encounters, I just don't think they're better per se than casting spells like Wall of Force during combat, or that they're as game-breaking as other things you can do even with any Wizard, e.g. Planar Binding two or three Invisible Stalkers for a month and Mage Armoring them, and during combat throwing spells like Web and Evard's Black Tentacles which they are immune to.

I agree that we agree! I'm glad to see someone does, I was a bit dismayed to see earlier:


Enchanter's are very meh. Their level 2 feature is meh, their level 6 directly competes with the shield spell and their level 14 is based off charisma modifier. All in all I just want to play a subtle sorcerer whenever I play one.

Of course I respect TheUser's opinion a lot (especially when it comes to Sorcerers), but it's still nice to have someone agree!

One thing I'd point out regarding the power of Hypnotic Gaze though is that to me it's not powerful because it competes with Wall of Force and other options, it's powerful because it can be done in addition to those things. So you Wall of Force the battlefield, and then shut down another enemy with Hypnotic Gaze. Or you unleash your Invisible Stalkers, Web the battlefield, and then lock down another enemy. It just pumps up the already formidable battlefield control of the Wizard! In a way, it kind of blows away the concentration mechanic since it's a bit like you're concentrating on Wall of Force and Hold Monster at the same time! (Not exactly of course, but a bit like it)



BTW another thing you can potentially do with Hypnotic Gaze is keep a fiend/fey/etc. hypnotized for an hour after combat until someone else in the party finishes casting Planar Binding on it, more than once if necessary.

Absolutely! With my Enchanter Wizard I would also keep the BBEG or his important henchmen hypnotized so the party could tie him up and chain him, and then deliver him to town to stand trial. That's cool!

[MaxWilson]

One thing I'd point out regarding the power of Hypnotic Gaze though is that to me it's not powerful because it competes with Wall of Force and other options, it's powerful because it can be done in addition to those things. So you Wall of Force the battlefield, and then shut down another enemy with Hypnotic Gaze. Or you unleash your Invisible Stalkers, Web the battlefield, and then lock down another enemy. It just pumps up the already formidable battlefield control of the Wizard! In a way, it kind of blows away the concentration mechanic since it's a bit like you're concentrating on Wall of Force and Hold Monster at the same time! (Not exactly of course, but a bit like it)

Yes, I agree, with the caveat that in super-tough battles you sometimes wouldn't want to e.g. risk losing Wall of Force concentration by getting close enough to a bad guy to attempt Hypnotic Gaze. It depends on your AC, your feats (Resilient (Con) or Warcaster), how tough the monster is that you're going to try hypnotizing, etc.

I suppose one way to think of it is as if Hypnotic Gaze were the most powerful short-ranged cantrip in the game: that's kind of how you wind up using it. It's more useful in long or unpredictable adventures than short bursty ones where you can afford to nova, but even when you can afford to nova it still has uses (e.g. the aforementioned Planar Binding trick).

[TheUser]

Any wizard ability that requires running into/being in melee means failure is no longer an option. If there's one thing I detest more than save vs suck it's save vs suck at melee range.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that my DM's are just a wee bit more cutthroat in that the few times the enemy resisted my Hypnotic Gaze it was occasionally met with an immediate grapple to the face to keep that pesky wizard's mouth shut.

There was even a time where I tried to Instinctive Charm the grapple attempt and it Succeeded! Only for them to use their second attack and grapple me regardless... (Wamp wamp). Would shield have saved me? No. But just not being in melee would have.

Directly compred to Necromancer where I've literally been asked to never play a necromancer in WotC modules by my long time DM friend because either he has to be unfair to me as a player and pick on me to keep my power in check or watch as I run rampant and up-end every encounter with just 8 skeleton archers.

[MaxWilson]

Any wizard ability that requires running into/being in melee means failure is no longer an option. If there's one thing I detest more than save vs suck it's save vs suck at melee range.

For a pure Enchanter, this is true. For a multiclassed Enchanter, this is very untrue. With good AC (e.g. Forge Cleric 1/Enchanter 3 for AC 19ish from Chain Mail +1 and shield) plus disadvantage to enemy attacks from Invisibility (which also prevents opportunity attacks), you can sometimes go through multiple fights in a dungeon crawl without spending more than that one Invisibility spell and a maybe few HP from a lucky hit. There's usually enough monsters that if one monster resists your Hypnotic Gaze you can just move away and try a different monster next round.

That strategy is cheap enough that you'll have plenty of spell slots left to deal with the encounters where that tactic is inappropriate.

[EdenIndustries]

Any wizard ability that requires running into/being in melee means failure is no longer an option. If there's one thing I detest more than save vs suck it's save vs suck at melee range.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that my DM's are just a wee bit more cutthroat in that the few times the enemy resisted my Hypnotic Gaze it was occasionally met with an immediate grapple to the face to keep that pesky wizard's mouth shut.

There was even a time where I tried to Instinctive Charm the grapple attempt and it Succeeded! Only for them to use their second attack and grapple me regardless... (Wamp wamp). Would shield have saved me? No. But just not being in melee would have.

Directly compred to Necromancer where I've literally been asked to never play a necromancer in WotC modules by my long time DM friend because either he has to be unfair to me as a player and pick on me to keep my power in check or watch as I run rampant and up-end every encounter with just 8 skeleton archers.

Yeah these are all fair points. I guess I just like my wizards high risk/high reward! Which is perhaps not the most optimal way to play them, but I do find it pretty darn fun.

Certainly Necromancers are very strong, but to my personal taste almost too strong to be fun after a little while. Bringing an army to a fist fight is playing the game on easy mode ;). It's also why I personally don't use Simulacrum and such. It's too optimal/powerful for me personally. But of course, all power to you if you enjoy it!


For a pure Enchanter, this is true. For a multiclassed Enchanter, this is very untrue. With good AC (e.g. Forge Cleric 1/Enchanter 3 for AC 19ish from Chain Mail +1 and shield) plus disadvantage to enemy attacks from Invisibility (which also prevents opportunity attacks), you can sometimes go through multiple fights in a dungeon crawl without spending more than that one Invisibility spell and a maybe few HP from a lucky hit. There's usually enough monsters that if one monster resists your Hypnotic Gaze you can just move away and try a different monster next round.

That strategy is cheap enough that you'll have plenty of spell slots left to deal with the encounters where that tactic is inappropriate.

This was pretty much my experience also. I wouldn't try it as a singleclassed Enchanter! But backed by Cleric tankiness and optimizing other things around the plan to get close, it worked out well for me.

[MaxWilson]

Certainly Necromancers are very strong, but to my personal taste almost too strong to be fun after a little while. Bringing an army to a fist fight is playing the game on easy mode ;).

Also, DMs are supposed to roll dice only when the outcome is in doubt. When you've got three dozen skeleton archers on your side against a typical Medium/Hard/Deadly bunch of monsters, the correct DMing when the player declares "I have my skeletons kill all of the monsters" is to respond "Okay, they're dead, and you've lost [some HP, some skeletons]. Now what do you do?" I exaggerate only slightly.


This was pretty much my experience also. I wouldn't try it as a singleclassed Enchanter! But backed by Cleric tankiness and optimizing other things around the plan to get close, it worked out well for me.

Another thing you can do, especially if you're holding up an important spell like the above-mentioned Wall of Force, is to try Hypnotic Gaze and if that doesn't work, cast a Sanctuary with your bonus action. Even with Wis 13, Sanctuary is a pretty good defense against lots of monsters.

[EdenIndustries]

Another thing you can do, especially if you're holding up an important spell like the above-mentioned Wall of Force, is to try Hypnotic Gaze and if that doesn't work, cast a Sanctuary with your bonus action. Even with Wis 13, Sanctuary is a pretty good defense against lots of monsters.

Fantastic point! Another great synergy with multiclassing into Cleric.

[MaxWilson]

Fantastic point! Another great synergy with multiclassing into Cleric.

Works with Artificer too--slightly better even.

[Eldariel]

Part of this might be due to the initiative variant I use when I'm running the game (everybody declares then everybody acts, instead of turn-by-turn) or just general differences in playstyle. I'm glad it works well for you.

I've been meaning to ask, this is something I felt like I'd like to run; how do you make this work? I had the idea but the minutiae escape me.

[Segev]

I've been meaning to ask, this is something I felt like I'd like to run; how do you make this work? I had the idea but the minutiae escape me.

Easiest way would be to write down actions, then read them off around the table. Each action is taken as if the rest of the board was unchanged since the start of the round. Results of all actions are determined, and only applied after all have been so determined.

So everyone acts based on the state “between” rounds, and results apply only at the end of the round.

This doesn’t work when there are “off-turn” actions, like OAs and other reactions.

[P. G. Macer]

I played an Evoker from level 5 to level 16. I’m aware blasting isn’t the most optimal route, but I had a lot of fun nonetheless. Sculpt spells is a great boon for a blaster, and the one time I got to use Overchannel I did a crap-ton of damage and utterly annihilated a small army.

[MaxWilson]

I've been meaning to ask, this is something I felt like I'd like to run; how do you make this work? I had the idea but the minutiae escape me.

The basic idea is to treat it like any other declaration, including outside of combat: say what you're doing with enough detail that the DM can tell you the results, and everyone else does too, and then the DM narrates the results, rolling dice where necessary. Declarations happen in order from lowest Intelligence to highest, to simulate quicker thinking/shorter OODA loops. Monsters or PCs who are not currently visible to each other declare actions secretly, e.g. by writing them down on a note card. Roll Initiative (Dexterity) contests when it's necessary, e.g. if the DM isn't sure if Ralph would be able to run to the gate and close it before the Star Spawn Mangler gets through it. (If Ralph were already standing next to the gate maybe he'd auto-succeed, or maybe he'd have advantage on the roll.)

Here's a writeup from several years ago: https://bluishcertainty.blogspot.com/2017/01/simultaneous-initiative-in-5e.html?m=1

The biggest change I've made since then is to roll initiative even less and just rely on common sense, as per Ralph example above. If A is 45' away from B and both are Dashing 60' per round, I no longer feel any need to pretend like B can catch up to A with a good initiative roll--that possibility is just an artifact of turn-by-turn initiative, not something I need to deliberately keep in my game. If A were only 10' away I'd allow it though.

Note also: I am not strict about order declaration. If you the player are impatient to declare your action now, you can, even if your Intelligence is 20. You can even start rolling your dice now if you want to be ready for when I eventually ask for them. But if you do, you can't change your declared action later after others declare--you have to wait for next round. This is more for the sake of keeping an orderly table than game balance.

[Eldariel]

Cheers! How do you handle interruption actions like Counterspell, OAs, etc.? It was the biggest reason I never made the leap in 3e, but 5e is significantly less reaction-based so it might be workable.

[MaxWilson]

Cheers! How do you handle interruption actions like Counterspell, OAs, etc.? It was the biggest reason I never made the leap in 3e, but 5e is significantly less reaction-based so it might be workable.

As the DM is resolving actions, the DM pauses briefly to inform players that something is happening which might need their reaction (casting a Shield spell in response to a hit, casting a Counterspell in response to a spell, making an opportunity attack in response to movement, using Lucky dice in response to a hit, etc.). Players inform the DM of their decision and then resolution continues. In cases of confusion where e.g. a player says "Hey, I wanted to use my Lucky dice on that hit!" the DM acts like a reasonable human being, errs in the player's favor, and talks to the player afterward to work out a policy on when the player wants to use their Lucky dice/Cutting Words/whatever without the DM having to stop and prompt the player every time they do anything at all in the game.

In other words, when it comes to reactions, there's no real difference from vanilla RAW: you work out procedures that will interrupt gameplay as little as possible. The only difference is that since turns = rounds, you get your reaction back at the start of the round when everybody is declaring, instead of when your "turn" comes up during play. This turn = round equivalence also means that there's no possibility for irritating cheese like quadrupling the amount of damage a monster takes from Wall of Fire by shoving it into and out of the flames on several turns of each round.

I'd be interested to hear more about why you are afraid that handling interruptions would be difficult. In my experience there's nothing particularly complicated about them as long as the DM is willing to be reasonable.

[Eldariel]

Well, I just didn't like the idea of reactions breaking the flow of the turn after stuff is declared (I'm coming from Diplomacy/Risk background here). I envisioned it more as "okay, we do this stuff and then stuff happens" with perhaps proactively described reactions in case something does require it. But your description does make sense. It was more of a 3e problem than a 5e problem anyways: 3e is so heavily AoO based and you can have multiple AoOs and all that it's really hard to muck with the initiative even though it never sat right for me.

[MaxWilson]

Well, I just didn't like the idea of reactions breaking the flow of the turn after stuff is declared (I'm coming from Diplomacy/Risk background here). I envisioned it more as "okay, we do this stuff and then stuff happens" with perhaps proactively described reactions in case something does require it. But your description does make sense. It was more of a 3e problem than a 5e problem anyways: 3e is so heavily AoO based and you can have multiple AoOs and all that it's really hard to muck with the initiative even though it never sat right for me.

In practice it doesn't happen much once players and DMs get to know each other more--e.g. DM just knows that player X will always Shield against hits and so can just say, "monster X hits Bob but Bob throws up a Shield--Bob, deduct two spell points. Monster Y hits Bob despite the Shield for 11 HP of damage!" Etc. Players can potentially name their combos, like:

Jaws of Death: Player A will grapple/prone [monster name], while player B reserves their reaction for Cutting Words if the monster rolls above 11 on the dice for Athletics.

That speeds up combat even more when it happens.

DM: The werewolves are splitting up--looks like one of them will be attacking each of you.
Ralph: Bob and I will Jaws of Death the Death Slaad.
Bob: Yeah, and I'll inspire Curt and cast Hypnotic Pattern on the werewolves before they can reach us.
Curt: I'll smite the closest werewolves with the power of my faith! [DM knows this means Attack + Divine Smites. Doesn't bother to ask Curt what level of smites because Curt is the one who will be rolling the dice + deducting the spell slots.]
DM: Great. The Death Slaad is casting a Fireball on you. Everybody, please roll DC 15 Dex saves and Bob also roll a concentration save for your Hypnotic Pattern.
[die rolling commences]

[th3g0dc0mp13x]

I wonder if you would have gotten more out of the 2nd level ability if you were gnome sized. I heart the 2nd level ability.
I was actually a rock gnome lol, I just detest the "I create an illusion of a box and hide inside it during combat. Also anytime that we needed to hide from people it was usually all 6 party members.



Huh. AFB, but I've always thought you had to declare the usage before the attack roll is made. Never occurred to me others might interpret it to let you see the attack roll first. That makes it much more powerful.

I'm actually mad at myself right now, you are 100% correct, we played that wrong for way too long.