Suggested downgrade of darkvision for campaign

[Wrath Of Grapes]

Working on a 'dark' campaign, darkvision doesn't jive that well with that sort of campaign but I don't want to outright ban most race options.

Darkvision 30'

Darkvision only works out to a distance of 30’ and only works in darkness.
Light interferes with darkvision so that your sight doesn’t improve in areas that are already dimly or brightly illuminated.

By decreasing the range to be less than most light sources and not giving it any benefit in areas that are already dimly illuminated it means much of the time the characters roughly perceive the same thing which works better for setting the mood for an encounter.

Darkvision might be useful when scouting / focusing on stealth, as a back up when light fails for some reason but in other cases usually inferior to a light source like a torch.

I'd like some constructive criticism, I considered Low Light Vision but darkvision is actually much more preferable for creating horror encounters with grainy, black and white vision.

[Garfunion]

What was your idea for low light vision?

I’ve played with the idea of removing dark vision from most PC races and replacing it with my version of low light vision. Low light vision removes disadvantage from perception checks in dimly lit conditions.

[Segev]

Darkvision in 5e already makes complete darkness "dimly lit." This means creatures with Darkvision have Disadvantage on all Wisdom(Perception) checks. Darkvision does make dimly lit areas (actually dimly lit, not dark areas they're treating as such) "brightly lit" for their purposes, but that does require a light source.

Parties with Darkvision in normal campaigns typically carry light with them in order to avoid having Disadvantage on all perception checks, anyway. So this rule change won't make much difference if your intent is to encourage PCs to carry light sources. If that's not your intention, then be aware that it will seem to be, because the answer to the nerfs here are to do so (again, not that they wouldn't anyway).

If you're going to deny them light sources, or punish light sources with...negative attention...then I don't think reducing the radius of Darkvision will accomplish much. Sure, they can see out to 60 feet, but how is 30 feet any better for your purposes? Again, remember that they already have Disadvantage on Perception when relying wholly on Darkvision. Creatures can hide quite effectively like that. (It basically gives a -5 penalty to their Passive Perception, for example.)

What is your goal with this rule change? Maybe I'm barking up the wrong tree and assuming you're doing something you're not.

[John Out West]

In my stealth stuff, Dark-Vision has unlimited range and makes the place look like bright light, (Just like how it works for my boy Drizzt in his books) but light sources cause it to shut down, even a candle at 300 feet will completely negate dark-vision. This forces Dark-Vision users to the outside of groups or alone, and they can't use it when the full-moons out, against humaniods that use torches, glowing bugs, caves with cracks where light pours through, etc. Worked well for me.

I hope that helps.

[Wrath Of Grapes]

Darkvision in 5e already makes complete darkness "dimly lit." This means creatures with Darkvision have Disadvantage on all Wisdom(Perception) checks. Darkvision does make dimly lit areas (actually dimly lit, not dark areas they're treating as such) "brightly lit" for their purposes, but that does require a light source.

I realize how it works. There is basically two things; I do not like the disparity between the perception of people with and without darkvision and I do not like darkvision to be the default (otherwise it would be 'solved' by making it very easily accessible to the entire party). The purpose is to run a less high fantasy, and slightly more gritty / dark campaign with horror elements.


Parties with Darkvision in normal campaigns typically carry light with them in order to avoid having Disadvantage on all perception checks, anyway. So this rule change won't make much difference if your intent is to encourage PCs to carry light sources. If that's not your intention, then be aware that it will seem to be, because the answer to the nerfs here are to do so (again, not that they wouldn't anyway).

Yes, the intent is to have them depend on light sources more. This more or less means that they perceive the same thing as it happens, what works better in a horror setting.


If you're going to deny them light sources, or punish light sources with...negative attention...then I don't think reducing the radius of Darkvision will accomplish much. Sure, they can see out to 60 feet, but how is 30 feet any better for your purposes? Again, remember that they already have Disadvantage on Perception when relying wholly on Darkvision. Creatures can hide quite effectively like that. (It basically gives a -5 penalty to their Passive Perception, for example.)

What is your goal with this rule change? Maybe I'm barking up the wrong tree and assuming you're doing something you're not.

Decreasing it to 30' would mean that holding a typical light source (a light spell or a torch for example) will provide superior vision 20' brightly lit and 20' dimly lit versus 30' dimly lit in black and white. This makes darkvision inherently inferior in clarity and range. Which shifts the default to depending on light, and darkvision as a useful backup. This hopefully also makes races without darkvision a more viable option.

I try to make humans more appealing thematically and crunch wise (but without feat at 1st level) and considering to replace / adjust some races to fit better in a setting that is less high fantasy. Making other races a little less 'magical' might help to fit the setting better without doing a complete overhaul.

[Garfunion]

I realize how it works. There is basically two things; I do not like the disparity between the perception of people with and without darkvision and I do not like darkvision to be the default (otherwise it would be 'solved' by making it very easily accessible to the entire party). The purpose is to run a less high fantasy, and slightly more gritty / dark campaign with horror elements.



Yes, the intent is to have them depend on light sources more. This more or less means that they perceive the same thing as it happens, what works better in a horror setting.



Decreasing it to 30' would mean that holding a typical light source (a light spell or a torch for example) will provide superior vision 20' brightly lit and 20' dimly lit versus 30' dimly lit in black and white. This makes darkvision inherently inferior in clarity and range. Which shifts the default to depending on light, and darkvision as a useful backup. This hopefully also makes races without darkvision a more viable option.

I try to make humans more appealing thematically and crunch wise (but without feat at 1st level) and considering to replace / adjust some races to fit better in a setting that is less high fantasy. Making other races a little less 'magical' might help to fit the setting better without doing a complete overhaul.

If you don’t like darkvision, just remove it altogether. Your world possesses an unnatural darkness/diminished light and natural darkvision just doesn’t work. Those races that once had darkvision now possess a way to produce light quickly;
-Elves can cast dancing lights cantrip.
-Gnomes can cast light cantrip.
-Dwarfs can use a bonus action to stomp their foot or slam an object against a “wall” to use a 10ft echo location (echo location isn’t perfect, they still have disadvantage of perception rolls and attack rolls while using it).

[Segev]

I realize how it works. There is basically two things; I do not like the disparity between the perception of people with and without darkvision and I do not like darkvision to be the default (otherwise it would be 'solved' by making it very easily accessible to the entire party). The purpose is to run a less high fantasy, and slightly more gritty / dark campaign with horror elements.



Yes, the intent is to have them depend on light sources more. This more or less means that they perceive the same thing as it happens, what works better in a horror setting.



Decreasing it to 30' would mean that holding a typical light source (a light spell or a torch for example) will provide superior vision 20' brightly lit and 20' dimly lit versus 30' dimly lit in black and white. This makes darkvision inherently inferior in clarity and range. Which shifts the default to depending on light, and darkvision as a useful backup. This hopefully also makes races without darkvision a more viable option.

I try to make humans more appealing thematically and crunch wise (but without feat at 1st level) and considering to replace / adjust some races to fit better in a setting that is less high fantasy. Making other races a little less 'magical' might help to fit the setting better without doing a complete overhaul.With a torch, a human sees out to 40 feet, with 20 of that being dim light.

With a torch, a typical 60 ft. darkvision race sees out to 60 feet, with the last 20 of that being dim light and black-and-white.

Because 60 ft. darkvision without a torch or other lighting is 60 ft. of dim light, I think the default still will be using light, not using darkvision. Darkvision is a fallback.

Do you want to use darkvision to spook players, or just make it not useful? If the latter, Garfunion's suggestion above (and quoted below) is probably better. If the former... take a look at the Gloomstalker Ranger. It's printed in Xanathar's Guide to Everything, and probably has a UA version around somewhere. The key thing I want to point out is that it is invisible to darkvision.

Playing with that concept - making darkvision unreliable compared to normal vision - might be a better way to go. Give some creatures the ability to only be seen in dim light (invisible in bright light), and some invisibility to darkvision. In particular, those with both would only be visible in dim light that is seen without darkvision, which would mean that darkvision-enabled creatures wouldn't ever see them while those without it would see them when they're in dim light.

Create illusions - spells or just ambient magical effects - which only appear to darkvision. They thus fade in bright light (for creatures with darkvision) and are never seen by humans and halflings (even in dim light).

Doing this is a sort of nerf to darkvision, but you don't have to tell players, "I'm making your race weaker." You're just introducing an environment and creatures that mess with it.


If you don’t like darkvision, just remove it altogether. Your world possesses an unnatural darkness/diminished light and natural darkvision just doesn’t work. Those races that once had darkvision now possess a way to produce light quickly;
-Elves can cast dancing lights cantrip.
-Gnomes can cast light cantrip.
-Dwarfs can use a bonus action to stomp their foot or slam an object against a “wall” to use a 10ft echo location (echo location isn’t perfect, they still have disadvantage of perception rolls and attack rolls while using it).
This is a good approach to eliminating the problem without making it feel like a pointless nerf. This is a trade-off.


On the subject of humans being more attractive, you probably want to do something else for them. Just making the other races' vision nerfed isn't going to cut it. My suggestion above stealt-buffs them (and halflings and dragonborn) by making their dim-light vision see what's really there rather than be fooled by weird invisible-to-darkvision creatures and visible-only-to-darkvision illusions. If you want more (heh) color to the nerf, you could make darkvision creatures see things in dim light in black-and-white, even though they get "bright light" visibility, so they only see color in actual bright light. Humans (and others) thus get the power to see color in dim light, but have trouble seeing in dim light. This could mark part of what makes them able to "truly see" what hides in dim spaces.

[Wrath Of Grapes]

If you don’t like darkvision, just remove it altogether. Your world possesses an unnatural darkness/diminished light and natural darkvision just doesn’t work. Those races that once had darkvision now possess a way to produce light quickly;
-Elves can cast dancing lights cantrip.
-Gnomes can cast light cantrip.
-Dwarfs can use a bonus action to stomp their foot or slam an object against a “wall” to use a 10ft echo location (echo location isn’t perfect, they still have disadvantage of perception rolls and attack rolls while using it).

That is an option to consider, though maybe wouldn't necessarily compensate with a sensory upgrade.

Elves, double proficiency in perception
Half-elves, proficiency in perception
Dwarves, double proficiency in artisan's tools (smith, stonemason or brewer) and advantage on checks to craft with the chosen tools.
Gnomes, proficiency in one knowledge skill of choice. knowledge skills (any) are always class skills for you.
Half-orcs, +2 strength, +1 to any two ability scores

it is a possible solution for this campaign

[Wrath Of Grapes]

Do you want to use darkvision to spook players, or just make it not useful? If the latter, Garfunion's suggestion above (and quoted below) is probably better. If the former... take a look at the Gloomstalker Ranger. It's printed in Xanathar's Guide to Everything, and probably has a UA version around somewhere. The key thing I want to point out is that it is invisible to darkvision.

Playing with that concept - making darkvision unreliable compared to normal vision - might be a better way to go. Give some creatures the ability to only be seen in dim light (invisible in bright light), and some invisibility to darkvision. In particular, those with both would only be visible in dim light that is seen without darkvision, which would mean that darkvision-enabled creatures wouldn't ever see them while those without it would see them when they're in dim light.

Create illusions - spells or just ambient magical effects - which only appear to darkvision. They thus fade in bright light (for creatures with darkvision) and are never seen by humans and halflings (even in dim light).

Doing this is a sort of nerf to darkvision, but you don't have to tell players, "I'm making your race weaker." You're just introducing an environment and creatures that mess with it.


This is a good approach to eliminating the problem without making it feel like a pointless nerf. This is a trade-off.

True, this might thematically work and did consider to use this option for 'shadows' and possibly other incorporeal creatures that can be considered to be interacting with light differently. But it's not something to use frequently, and wouldn't take away all my issues which comes down to a diversity of perception making it harder to set a spooky atmosphere. By no means impossible but it means I have to always consider the encounter from the perspective of characters with darkvision first and 'humans' second.



On the subject of humans being more attractive, you probably want to do something else for them. Just making the other races' vision nerfed isn't going to cut it. My suggestion above stealth-buffs them (and halflings and dragonborn) by making their dim-light vision see what's really there rather than be fooled by weird invisible-to-darkvision creatures and visible-only-to-darkvision illusions. If you want more (heh) color to the nerf, you could make darkvision creatures see things in dim light in black-and-white, even though they get "bright light" visibility, so they only see color in actual bright light. Humans (and others) thus get the power to see color in dim light, but have trouble seeing in dim light. This could mark part of what makes them able to "truly see" what hides in dim spaces.

I actually buffed all races slightly, humans arguably a bit more than others. Though I also removed the option to gain a feat at 1st level which, I assume, was the main draw to play a human in our games. I didn't buff halflings and dragonborn more than any other race though giving darkvision a bit of a nerf would effectively buff them of course.

Your suggestions are good to play with, but it would only add to a divergence in perception even though now it is in favor of team 'human'.
I am getting more inclined to banning darkvision altogether.

[Segev]

If you don’t want different perception, then remove the mechanism that generates it. So, yes, remove dark vision or give it to everyone.

Otherwise, you’ll always be fighting the difference you’re trying to get around.

[Coins]

You could make a blanket change to darkvision that says you can't see objects in shadows.