New player wanted a re-fluff and now wants to justify a feat

[Perch]

So I invited my boyfriend to join my D&D group and he's a kind of jock form a insanely christian catholic family so his experience with D&D is veeeery limited.

After helping out with the classes he decided he like the fluff of the Warlock, he wanted to be a Lovecraftian scholar for the main religion of the setting. Sounds good so far.

But he loves throwing knives and wanted to know if he could re-fluff his eldritch blast as throwing knives he summons out of thin air(possible from the mineral quasi-Elemental Plane. Because of corona virus I haven't contacted the DM yet but I think he will allow it.

After some time he said he wanted his character to be a pacifist, I tried explaining that the game was combat heavy but he elaborated that he would just not kill people and just imobilize them. I was iffy about but said we could check with the DM then he asked if he could use his Eldritch blast knives to perform the 3.5 edition feat "Pinning Shot" and I knew that was the kind of thing DMs hate since this is from another edition, it complicates things and he's a new player making demands.

So I was wondering what you guys think. Is this game breaking? Would you allow it? Is there a better alternative to help him reach the character he envisioned?

[Dork_Forge]

What is the feat?

As for nonlethal, I think its Raw that the player can decide to do nonlethal damage when they drop a creature to zero. So a pacifist by rules should be okay it's more how the party would handle it.

[RSP]

What is the feat?

As for nonlethal, I think its Raw that the player can decide to do nonlethal damage when they drop a creature to zero. So a pacifist by rules should be okay it's more how the party would handle it.

Only with melee attacks. If they drop to zero with a ranged attack, they die.

[Kane0]

Only with melee attacks. If they drop to zero with a ranged attack, they die.

So make a half feat that allows magic/ranged attacks to KO at 0 hp like melee attack can.

[Anymage]

Restraining the target on any hit sounds both overly complicated and more powerful than it should be. If your at-will attack also limits the target's movement, that gets very strong very fast in any setting but the most straightforward slugfest.

It's absolutely worth asking the DM to refluff the attacks to be more like cover fire than emptying a clip into a guy. Instead of single air-daggers it's a stream of air-darts, and if that reduces a creature to 0 they're helplessly pinned to a nearby surface instead of knocked out/killed if at all possible. It might not be the strictest RAW, but it doesn't add unnecessary complexity or imbalance.

[Dork_Forge]

Only with melee attacks. If they drop to zero with a ranged attack, they die.

You're correct, this is what I get for being AFB!


So make a half feat that allows magic/ranged attacks to KO at 0 hp like melee attack can.

That seems like a reasonable solution, as it's a Warlock maybe even jsut make it an invocation.

[Man_Over_Game]

Your DM could find a way to make it happen, but it IS a lot.

Personally, I'd just make the Pinning Shot effect an Invocation.

Something like:

Enervating Blasts: For each bolt of your Eldritch Blast that would attack a creature, you can instead cause that creature to make their choice of either a Strength or a Dexterity Saving throw, or be weakened.

If a Prone creature fails this saving throw, they are now Incapacitated until the end of their next turn. Otherwise, a creature that fails this saving throw is now Prone.

That way, he gets what he wants and doesn't have to finagle with how ranged attacks work with non-lethal damage or prone targets.

[Dork_Forge]

Your DM could find a way to make it happen, but it IS a lot.

Personally, I'd just make the Pinning Shot effect an Invocation.

Something like:

Enervating Blasts: For each bolt of your Eldritch Blast that would attack a creature, you can instead cause that creature to make a Dexterity Saving throw or be weakened.

If a Prone creature fails this saving throw, they are now Incapacitated until the end of their next turn. Otherwise, a creature that fails this saving throw is now Prone.

That way, he gets what he wants and doesn't have to finagle with how ranged attacks work with non-lethal damage or prone targets.

From a quick google, incapacitated seems like a lot, from what I read it was a ranged grapple, is that right? From just the name just dropping their speed to 0 for the turn seems adequate.

[col_impact]

Maybe Shadowblade is what he wants?

[Man_Over_Game]

From a quick google, incapacitated seems like a lot, from what I read it was a ranged grapple, is that right? From just the name just dropping their speed to 0 for the turn seems adequate.

That would work in terms of balance, but it wouldn't do anything to "pacify" the target.

But you make a good point.

Maybe make a creature Incapacitated until the start of their next turn if they were Prone, or until the end of their next turn if they were already Incapacitated?

[Dork_Forge]

That would work in terms of balance, but it wouldn't do anything to "pacify" the target.

Is what I found on the 3.5 feat accurate? It didn't really seem to do anything but grapple them at a distance and grappling is a pretty terrible way to pacify anyone in 5e. It just seems like handing out a powerful condition when it isn't needed to achieve what is wanted.

[da newt]

Show him all the AoE control spells - web, entangle, etc. It sounds like that's the sort of thing he's looking for. There are plenty out there.

In my opinion, adding a prone / restrained / incapacitated or similar condition to EB beyond lance of lethargy would overpower the cantrip. Imagine how OP just adding the BM's trip attack to every EB beam would be.

I'd have no issue changing EB to make it nonlethal so 0 hp = unconscious, not dead. Just refluff force damage to blunt force damage that KOs instead of kills.

[Yakk]

Enervating Blasts
As an action you can change your Eldritch Blast from being lethal to being Enervating, or vice versa. Coils of force attempt to incapacitate the creature.

When they are Enervating, keep track of how much damage you do to a target as enervating, but do not deal it. When the damage exceeds their current HP, they become incapacitated. Healing effects when they are at max HP reduce this effect. Any creature can spend an action to reduce the size of this effect by 1d10.

In addition, you gain temporary HP equal to half of the damage you do. Remember, temporary HP do not stack; only the highest value is used.

---

It is a modest amount of temporary HP (like 7 max) regained each turn. That is the core balance part of this invocation.

The Enervating is mostly a ribbon. It being an action to switch between modes is mainly to prevent "this one is enervating, now this one is lethal" annoyance during combat.

[Necromas]

The simplest solution is to create a houserule to amend a force damage option to the knocking a creature out rules.



Knocking a Creature Out
Sometimes an attacker wants to incapacitate a foe, rather than deal a killing blow. When an attacker reduces a creature to 0 hit points with a melee attack or by dealing force damage, the attacker can knock the creature out. The attacker can make this choice the instant the damage is dealt. The creature falls unconscious and is stable.

It doesn't do anything crazy mechanically like let eldritch blast apply conditions it could never cause before. Making a foe unconscious but stable instead of dying isn't really anything that gives the players an advantage in combat and if you're worried about an enemy living to be interrogated, it's already an option available to any melee combatants in the party.

It also doesn't do anything crazy with fluff changes, like let the player throw a non-lethal fireball.

If the player gets the final blow, let him describe the attack as stapling them to the ground with his summoned knives. But don't create a feat or ability that just let's him staple any enemy to the ground with a cantrip if you have any concerns about balance. The stuff warlocks can do with EB is already an optimizers wet dream.

[Guy Lombard-O]

There's obviously some good ideas on this thread already, the best probably being some sort of invocation to do non-lethal damage.

But have you discussed with him the larger problem, that quite possibly nobody else in his group will be on board with being a pacifist? I don't know what your other players are like, but he should at least be aware that his idea may put him at odds with them.

For instance, even if he expends an invocation on doing non-lethal damage, his may not be the decisive blow against a creature. So, with the way non-lethal damage works, his EB beams may still be contributing to that creature's death (particularly in ranged combats). Unless the DM is willing to essentially give every creature 2 pools of HP, with a secondary non-lethal pool just for his warlock, that's how the rule works. And asking a DM to do that might well be a bridge too far, don't you think? Depending upon how forceful your boyfriend plans to be about his pacifism, as in is he planning to insist that everybody else follows his moral code like some sort of old-school lawful stupid paladin, I could see this generating a fair amount of discord with the rest of the party. Maybe not the best start for his first D&D game?

Just a thought.

[Quietus]

I'd start with the invocation, Lance of Lethargy. Slows the opponent, they have to take a moment pulling out the knives that have been stuck to them. Then take the Hold Person spell as a spell known, if you're level 3. Fluff that not as taking hold of their mind, but as pinning them with so many blades they can't do anything. The Wisdom save is a bit weird on that, but they're magic knives, so.

At level 5, take Mire the Mind. Knife-slow multiple people at once! Slow is an amazing debuff, as well.

::Edit:: If he wants to do nonlethal damage, that's just a conversation with the DM. I wouldn't cost a player an invocation for that; I would just make it that instead of always doing lethal damage, their blasts always do nonlethal.

[Pex]

Show him all the AoE control spells - web, entangle, etc. It sounds like that's the sort of thing he's looking for. There are plenty out there.

In my opinion, adding a prone / restrained / incapacitated or similar condition to EB beyond lance of lethargy would overpower the cantrip. Imagine how OP just adding the BM's trip attack to every EB beam would be.

I'd have no issue changing EB to make it nonlethal so 0 hp = unconscious, not dead. Just refluff force damage to blunt force damage that KOs instead of kills.

If he's up for it maybe he'll consider Sorcerer. There is an Unearthed Arcana Aberration themed Sorcerer, so he can refluff the bloodline as his Pact. Then he can choose the non-lethal spells he wants.

[Perch]

Thanks all.

The pacifism won't be much of a problem since it's a undead heavy campaign, and he's fine with killing undead also he just doesn't wan to kill people himself and doesn't care if others do.

But anyway thanks for you tipos I will present them to the GM when the group is back.

[ad_hoc]

I think it is disrespectful to come play a game with people and then want to make all these changes.

Just make a character within the confines and expectations of the game.

This would be a huge red flag for me after inviting a new player to our table. I would ask them to make a character which is appropriate to the game and if they aren't cool with that then they can walk. I would assume they would just continue to be a problem going forward.

[Man_Over_Game]

Is what I found on the 3.5 feat accurate? It didn't really seem to do anything but grapple them at a distance and grappling is a pretty terrible way to pacify anyone in 5e. It just seems like handing out a powerful condition when it isn't needed to achieve what is wanted.

What the player wants and what he asked for sounds like two different, but related, things.

What he wants to do is pacify targets at range, treating his bolts like knives, and to have effects on the target to further those things.

Pinning Shot, as a means of reducing a target's speed to 0, seems kinda redundant when considering there's an Eldritch Bolt invocation that reduces a target's speed. More than likely, he chose pinning shot as a thematic means of furthering his two goals (of pacifying targets and throwing knives).

The problem with pacifying a target, which has already been brought up, is the fact that the player isn't able to do nonlethal damage at range. Another problem is the fact that there is the Prone condition, which would cause the player's attacks to be made with Disadvantage. One really effective way of crippling a target into submission, without magic, is by grappling them and knocking them prone.

Lastly, Eldritch Bolt is something that will be frequently used, and reducing a creature's speed to 0 is not something that'd stack or be universally relevant. He'd stop a target or two from moving in the first round, and then his invocation means almost nothing.

I'm not saying that preventing movement isn't a possible solution, I just don't think it solves all of the players' goals. Essentially, we'd want something that:


Is universally effective.
Doesn't utilize attack rolls (so as to not be a problem with Prone conditions).
Hinder's an enemy's ability to cause violence.
Is only circumstantially better than other invocations (so that we're only adding to the player's theme, and not to his power level).


My solution covered the first 3 bullets, but I think it's still missing the 4th. Locking down a boss because he has a bad Strength or Dex save with something like Quickened Eldritch Bolts sounds a little overboard. There's a few more I could think of, but they are either unrelated to what the player's theme is (blinding a target isn't overly powerful, but nothing to do with knives), or requires additional tracking that goes against the 5e design scheme (-X to hit and speed until the end of their turn, stacks per hit).

[Dork_Forge]

What the player wants and what he asked for sounds like two different, but related, things.

What he wants to do is pacify targets at range, treating his bolts like knives, and to have effects on the target to further those things.

Pinning Shot, as a means of reducing a target's speed to 0, seems kinda redundant when considering there's an Eldritch Bolt invocation that reduces a target's speed. More than likely, he chose pinning shot as a thematic means of furthering his two goals (of pacifying targets and throwing knives).

The problem with pacifying a target, which has already been brought up, is the fact that the player isn't able to do nonlethal damage at range. Another problem is the fact that there is the Prone condition, which would cause the player's attacks to be made with Disadvantage. One really effective way of crippling a target into submission, without magic, is by grappling them and knocking them prone.

Lastly, Eldritch Bolt is something that will be frequently used, and reducing a creature's speed to 0 is not something that'd stack or be universally relevant. He'd stop a target or two from moving in the first round, and then his invocation means almost nothing.

I'm not saying that preventing movement isn't a possible solution, I just don't think it solves all of the players' goals. Essentially, we'd want something that:


Is universally effective.
Doesn't utilize attack rolls (so as to not be a problem with Prone conditions).
Hinder's an enemy's ability to cause violence.
Is only circumstantially better than other invocations (so that we're only adding to the player's theme, and not to his power level).


My solution covered the first 3 bullets, but I think it's still missing the 4th. Locking down a boss because he has a bad Strength or Dex save with something like Quickened Eldritch Bolts sounds a little overboard. There's a few more I could think of, but they are either unrelated to what the player's theme is (blinding a target isn't overly powerful, but nothing to do with knives), or requires additional tracking that goes against the 5e design scheme (-X to hit and speed until the end of their turn, stacks per hit).

Okay, you haven't actually answered if what I gleamed about the 3.5 feat is accurate?

Point of clarity, nobody asked to "pacify" enemies, they player in question wants to be a pacifist, all they care about is not killing people.

Locking someone in place is very useful (and potentially powerful), I don't see how that becomes irrelvant after a turn or two, especially when it's still stacked on damage anyway. There IS an invocation that reduces speed, maybe that would be sufficient for the player if they know about it (I'd say unlikely), my suggestion is a one off enhancement to that, once per turn, reduce a creature's speed to 0.

Prone is not an issue in the actual scenario, your proposed solution creates the prone condtion, and it seems you're treating that as an overall issue to be solved. As long as your party doesn't knock a creature prone, this won't come up much.

Your version just seems harder to actually make stick as well, it's a choice of save up to the creature, they'll always pick their stronger save and since you will likely need to ge them to fail twice, you'll probably be less effective than just targetting their AC like vanilla EB does.

Point one of your list is something every character wants for an ability, if they actually were universally effective than that presents a balance issue. I think the only real requirements of this are:


Gives a fair 5e equivalent to the 3.5 feat.
Won't kill the enemy, or at least is very unlikely to.

[Aaedimus]

I don't think anyone else has mentioned this, but the Warlock has invocations for their eldritch blast that slow by 10ft/round and push/pull too.

Those make sense, but the pinning shot would be unbalanced, as you'd litterally be able to pin multiple people (multiple shots).

You can have him reskin those invocations and not have to homebrew. It's not a "pinning" action, out it's more ballanced