Echo Knight and the dislocated hit box.

[iTreeby]

Trying to build an echo knight from level one (although it can't be an echo knight until at least 3 obvs) and I'm trying to figure out how to get the most out of the echo. I am leaning towards using booming blade via race or feat for at least the first 4 levels, but am having a tough time finding more inspiration. Does the echo use ammo? Could I have the echo throw nets without me picking them up? Alchemist fire?

It's a really cool subclass, just not sure what to do with it.

[Tokuhara]

I like the idea of using PAM and Sentinel to stretch out your "no-go" zone

[Eragon123]

I like the idea of using PAM and Sentinel to stretch out your "no-go" zone

Be a bugbear as well for the free lunging attack.

[Tokuhara]

Be a bugbear as well for the free lunging attack.

This. This is cruel. And I adore it. It just screams "try me."

[Veldrenor]

I am leaning towards using booming blade via race or feat for at least the first 4 levels, but am having a tough time finding more inspiration.

Huh, that's a pretty cool tactic. Hit something with Booming Blade, then bonus action swap with the echo so the creature either wastes its turn on the echo or has to take the extra thunder damage in order to hit you back. You're probably only doing it every-other turn, but that's still good.


Does the echo use ammo?

Sort of. The echo doesn't attack, you're allowed to originate your attacks from its space. So if your attack consumes ammo, making the attack through the echo uses your ammo.



Could I have the echo throw nets without me picking them up? Alchemist fire?

No. You have to pick up the net/alchemist's fire/etc, then you can throw it from the echo.


I like the idea of using PAM and Sentinel to stretch out your "no-go" zone

Unfortunately the second clause of PAM doesn't work from the echo, and neither does the third clause of Sentinel.

[iTreeby]

I like the idea of using PAM and Sentinel to stretch out your "no-go" zone
PAM is not going to get used on turns I summon the Echo but stopping enemies that enter my reach is definitely good.

Be a bugbear as well for the free lunging attack.
Definitely a possibility.


Huh, that's a pretty cool tactic. Hit something with Booming Blade, then bonus action swap with the echo so the creature either wastes its turn on the echo or has to take the extra thunder damage in order to hit you back. You're probably only doing it every-other turn, but that's still good.



Unfortunately the second clause of PAM doesn't work from the echo, and neither does the third clause of Sentinel.

Thanks veldrenor, you helped me grock some of what I was missing. The fact that the feats don't work with the echo is kind of why I am reluctant to take those feats, they are definitely still good though. Another possibility that I considered was using my echo to fire ranged weapons "around corners" but that doesn't seem inspired.


Does anyone know if the echo can sneak? The echo avatar ability at seven seems like a good scouting ability if so. I also can't tell if the echo can fly? It says it can move in "any direction" and it's possible I may choose a flying race if it cannot fly normally.

[Veldrenor]

Does anyone know if the echo can sneak? The echo avatar ability at seven seems like a good scouting ability if so.

Technically no. None of the abilities you have with it include skill/ability checks, so it can't make stealth checks. But it doesn't make any noise, can't move things, and is a translucent gray image of you so it'll be difficult for enemies to notice it. Your DM may adjudicate it by having you roll stealth anyway, or they may set a DC and have enemies roll against that.



I also can't tell if the echo can fly? It says it can move in "any direction" and it's possible I may choose a flying race if it cannot fly normally.

Yup, since you can move it in any direction it can fly.

[NecessaryWeevil]

What's the source material for echo knights?

[DracoKnight]

What's the source material for echo knights?

They're found in the Explorer's Guide to Wildemount.

[Trustypeaches]

I'd go Echo Knight 3/5 then the rest into rogue (Swashbuckler).

The ease with which they can opportunity attack (esp with Sentinel) make it a far more reliable version of the Battlemaster/Rogue catch-22 with riposte + sentinel, a great way to get Sneak Attack in between your turns.

[iTreeby]

Just realized barbarians reckless attack works well with the Echo barbarian also gets fast movement and likes constitution problems arise with multiclassing with rogue because rogues like DEX and barbarian like strength. Not sure how combining all three would look going from level one, also having trouble deciding if barbarian is better or worse than rogue. I'm leaning towards rogue multiclasses, but I am curious what others think about it.

[DracoKnight]

Just realized barbarians reckless attack works well with the Echo barbarian also gets fast movement and likes constitution problems arise with multiclassing with rogue because rogues like DEX and barbarian like strength. Not sure how combining all three would look going from level one, also having trouble deciding if barbarian is better or worse than rogue. I'm leaning towards rogue multiclasses, but I am curious what others think about it.

Rogue doesn’t really care about DEX, they care about ranged or finesse weapons, which can be used with STR or DEX. Barbarian/Rogue is a popular multiclass already which typically uses a short sword or rapier with Strength. So you can totally build an Echo Knight/Barbarian/Rogue around STR and CON.

[Trustypeaches]

Rogue doesn’t really care about DEX, they care about ranged or finesse weapons, which can be used with STR or DEX. Barbarian/Rogue is a popular multiclass already which typically uses a short sword or rapier with Strength. So you can totally build an Echo Knight/Barbarian/Rogue around STR and CON.
You do still need at least 13 (ideally 14) Dexterity to maximize Medium Armor AC and to quality to multiclass into or out of Rogue

[iTreeby]

You do still need at least 13 (ideally 14) Dexterity to maximize Medium Armor AC and to quality to multiclass into or out of Rogue

Going barbarian does preclude heavy armor to some extent but given that we are focusing con for extra attacks, no armor is also an option. Do you think it is worth it to ignore rage bonus damage to push DEX instead?

[Hytheter]

I feel like an Echo Knight 3/Arcane Trickster X would be fun. Flavour the echo as some kind of illusion magic. Rapier and shield, use the echo to sort of attack from range. Booming Blade will be a staple when you're attacking, and Unleash Incarnation can be used for second chances at sneak attacks when your echo attacks instead of you (the echo can't use cantrips). Can also be used to test for traps that the trickster can disarm at range. Swapping with your doppelnager can make for some fun sheninigans, especially if you throw some illusions around.

[Trustypeaches]

Going barbarian does preclude heavy armor to some extent but given that we are focusing con for extra attacks, no armor is also an option. Do you think it is worth it to ignore rage bonus damage to push DEX instead?
I don't think 14 dexterity is particularly difficult to get on a Barbarian. If you're investing in CON enough to have comparable unarmored AC, then you're probably spending ASIs on it and neglecting your STR and other feats. Having good DEX in general is good for Initiative, Danger Sense, Dex saves, etc.

[Phhase]

Looking at the subclass, you could potentially use an echo to flank with yourself, enabling sneak attack, yeah?

[DracoKnight]

Looking at the subclass, you could potentially use an echo to flank with yourself, enabling sneak attack, yeah?

No. The echo is an object, as clarified by Jeremy Crawford. Flanking rules (which are optional anyway) don’t apply here.

[PhantomSoul]

No. The echo is an object, as clarified by Jeremy Crawford. Flanking rules (which are optional anyway) don’t apply here.

The tweet I found just said it wasn't a creature, not that it was an object. Do you have a link to the tweet? I'd imagined it as a magical effect mechanically, so neither a a creature nor an object (though it does suggest it can be dispelled, which seems fine as far as interactions go).

Edit: For clarity, the flanking rules still wouldn't apply. But it being an object changes interaction quite a bit (e.g. Fire Bolt and many spells hitting it).

[iTreeby]

The echo is mostly good for tactical positioning shenanigans, it's good with reckless attack because you can be 30ish feet from what you are attacking and, they would likely provoke an attack from the Echo if they tried to attack you, this is the easiest way I've seen echo knight grant itself advantage (2 lvl dip minimum). Something I'm not clear on is what happens when you put your echo into a darkness area and have it attack something you can see, in that case, I'm not sure what happens but it's possible that it could be an attack with advantage.

[DracoKnight]

The tweet I found just said it wasn't a creature, not that it was an object. Do you have a link to the tweet? I'd imagined it as a magical effect mechanically, so neither a a creature nor an object (though it does suggest it can be dispelled, which seems fine as far as interactions go).

Edit: For clarity, the flanking rules still wouldn't apply. But it being an object changes interaction quite a bit (e.g. Fire Bolt and many spells hitting it).

I sure do! https://twitter.com/jeremyecrawford/status/1240669629661380609?s=21

[PhantomSoul]

I sure do! https://twitter.com/jeremyecrawford/status/1240669629661380609?s=21

Huh, thanks!

[DracoKnight]

Huh, thanks!

No problem! ^_^

[KyleG]

So can someone layout some good tactics for the echo knight right off the bat at level 3 please.

[iTreeby]

So can someone layout some good tactics for the echo knight right off the bat at level 3 please.

OK. If you have an echo summoned 30 feet from you, command it to move a further 30 feet and then spend 15 of your own movement to swap places with it. Congratulations, you have teleported 60 feet away (in any direction, even up) without magic.

Another thing you can do is use it to make CONMOD extra attacks per long rest, nifty.

If you are in melee, you can just teleport away without disengaging, leaving your echo in your place, if the enemy attacks the Echo (and hits it) no big deal, you can summon a new one as a bonus action, if they leave the Echo to go after you, you get to make an opportunity attack in response. That's a win win.


It gets better if you have sentinel or booming blade (as discussed previously) but, you can't have both by level three.

[iTreeby]

So can someone layout some good tactics for the echo knight right off the bat at level 3 please.

OK. If you have an echo summoned 30 feet from you, command it to move a further 30 feet and then spend 15 of your own movement to swap places with it. Congratulations, you have teleported 60 feet away (in any direction, even up) without magic.

Another thing you can do is use it to make CONMOD extra attacks per long rest, nifty.

If you are in melee, you can just teleport away without disengaging, leaving your echo in your place, if the enemy attacks the Echo (and hits it) no big deal, you can summon a new one as a bonus action, if they leave the Echo to go after you, you get to make an opportunity attack in response. That's a win win.


It gets better if you have sentinel or booming blade (as discussed previously) but, you can't have both by level three.

Wield a bow and you can fly the Echo around cover to shoot for you (no bonus attacks though, that's melee only)

Edit : also, the Echo is an object I guess? So it is immune to poison and psychic damage (as all objects are)

[iTreeby]

Sorry to double post, just wanted to point out something I wanted to check reguarding the manifest echos second bullet (when you take the Attack action on your turn, any attack you make with that action can originate from the echos space). It seems like the special attack shove (and grapple?) fall under the abilities wording so you can shove with the Echo (and grapple?).


This is not as cool as it sounds, it seems that the target must still be within your original reach. Also weirdly, it seems that the shove still has to move your target away from your original location. Can anyone confirm that I've read this correctly?

[imaginary]

Hi all. I've recently become fascinated with Echo Knights. And I have been trying to figure out the rules around them and how to best use them. I have a few character concepts, as well.

One thing I did start to create was an Unofficial Echo Knight F.A.Q. (https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/class-forums/fighter/64918-an-echo-knight-faq-frequently-asked-questions)of sorts to try to collect all the various questions and rules in one place. I've included many of the questions that came up in this thread, and collected the best answers I could find. What I thought would be a small project turned into a much larger one. But feel free to take a look, suggest additions to it, or argue for changes.

This imperfect attempt at trying to make sense of Echo Knight rules is also for the community, and to help others understand what they are or are not capable of within the rules. That said, any DM or game can rule different. And I'm sure there is still much debate to be had. Anyway, please enjoy if you're interested.