Help Building a Tortle Druid/Paladin (AL Legal)

[Tokuhara]

So the idea kinda popped into my head of a Tortle who devoted his life to the protection of the Wilds at all costs. Idea being to take levels in both Paladin and Druid for flavor reasons. So as a challenge (at least initially), I wanted to make it Adventures League legal, meaning Core+1. So initially, I thought Firbolg because both Moon Druid and Oath of Ancients Paladin were in PHB, but then I thought about the spells I'd be able to use as both a Druid and a Paladin plus the wishy-washy AC. So Tortle became an immediate idea, now giving me access to Xanathar's. So questions now are

1. Should I start Paladin or Druid?
2. About how much Paladin would be ideal to still be mostly Druid for casting (I'm less interested in Wildshape as a go-to, but it's always a solid tool), though I'm at least taking 3 levels for Oath of Ancients (flavor reason)
3. Druid Subclass. I know the immediate answer is Moon, but would Land, Shepherd, or Dream work well with a Paladin Multiclass?
4. Ability Spread. I know I'll need at least a 13 Charisma, Strength, and Wisdom, as well as a decent Constitution. So any recommendations for Point Buy vs Standard Array?
5. Are there any "Must Have" Feats?

Thanks, and stay safe out there y'all!

[nickl_2000]

Are tortles considered a +1 already? I don't know AL rules will enough

[J-H]

Every time I see a title preview of "help building a Tortle..." I expect the rest of the headline to be "Ninja."

Tortle Shadow monk = Ninja Turtle.

Since you're planning to go 3/17 Pal/Druid, I would say no feats and just boost your WIS & STR.

[Tokuhara]

Are tortles considered a +1 already? I don't know AL rules will enough

Tortle falls under Xanathar's because of when it was released. Worst case, this should still work with Half-Elf, if lower AC overall.

And as for Paladin levels, I've seen anything from 2-5 being "ideal" (5 for the ASI and Extra Attack) for Paladin Multiclasses, hence that question

[iTreeby]

Is wildemount a valid plus one? It's got the turtles

[Tokuhara]

Is wildemount a valid plus one? It's got the turtles

No. They've said for either FR or Eberron, it's a hard no atm

[Lavaeolus]

First, let's see what we get out of starting as Druid vs Paladin. Note that I'm glossing over what level we're starting at, and how soon we come online. This is just the permanent results of each choice.

The Paladin gets heavy armour, and usually this would be enough to swing me to starting Paladin; for us, however, it's irrelevant. The starting equipment is different, though how much that matters to you is a little "eh". Paladin has the edge there, I think, though you might want to pick up a druidic focus or a component pouch, and swap out the metal shield for a wooden one. (AL lets you sell/buy items at character creation, right?) Paladin saving throws are Wisdom/Charisma and Druid saving throws are Wisdom/Intelligence.

Really, I don't think there's anything pressing enough to demand you pick one over the other. If you see yourself more as a Druid, it wouldn't really hurt to start as one. The slightly optimal choice is probably Paladin, though.

I think there are two main ways I'd built it:

1) Druid-focused. In this path, we are primarily focused on our Druid skills, taking a minor dip in Paladin for a Fighting Style, Smites, and some utility. Usually I'd recommend a Paladin 2 / Druid X split, but taking one more level in Paladin for flavour won't be too insurmountable, beyond delaying our Druid progression a bit. Do note that if playing to level 20, Paladin 3 will ultimately cost us Beast Spells at Druid 18; but we're unlikely to get that far.

Here, we'll let CHA slide to focus on WIS and STR, so any Paladin spells that don't rely too much on CHA might be worth a look. Bless is one tempting offer, off the top of my head, though it's one that takes Concentration. A CHA of 13 or 14 will be fine both starting and through the rest of the game; mainly we need to hit the multiclass requirement, but we can go up to an even number if you want. Once racials are factored in, that lets us reach at least 14 in CON, and gives us 16/14 to distribute between WIS and STR.

2) A bit more hybrid-y. We could also split off at either Paladin 6 or Paladin 7. This is a much more significant dip into Paladin, but will get us Extra Attack and give us a strong aura to help our teammates. Unfortunately, this is a bit more MAD as we're less able to sacrifice CHA or WIS, so it's probably not the path I'd recommend.

Either way, Tortle is probably a smart choice. One benefit is that it gets rid of any concerns about Druid-multiclassers in metal armour (I'm not sure if AL has an official interpretation on that). Otherwise, note that Lay on Hands and Divine Smite are not spells, and should be workable in Wild Shape -- the latter does depend on whether your DM would interpret Divine Smite as needing a weapon in addition to a melee weapon attack, and whether an animal attacking with its claws counts as attacking with a weapon for that purpose. Your Lay on Hands isn't gonna be the best healing out there, especially with the first build, but 15 HP or no it is a way of reviving downed characters while in beast form, which may come in handy.

[nickl_2000]

Tortle falls under Xanathar's because of when it was released. Worst case, this should still work with Half-Elf, if lower AC overall.

And as for Paladin levels, I've seen anything from 2-5 being "ideal" (5 for the ASI and Extra Attack) for Paladin Multiclasses, hence that question

Getting to 5 Paladin and not to 6 (or 7 for Ancients Paladin) seems silly since auras are just so darn good. I personally would say Paladin 2,6,7/Druid X. Ancients is a very good RP choice for this character, and getting it to 7 is absolutely amazing.


As for the Druid type, I would choose Shepherd myself. You can do some amazing things for allies close to you between the Auras and the Totem. Plus, you are a melee machine, you can hold the line yourself without the need for anyone else at all.

Coastal Land is good as well, with mirror image and misty step being an options or desert for blur.

[Tokuhara]

7th level. Hadn't thought about that. And Shepherd always has been one of those classes I dug

[Keravath]

How you build it depends on how you envisage the character.

Besides the role playing aspect ... what do you get from being a paladin that would help in your defence of nature? You could choose to role play this with no levels in paladin at all. A pure druid can easily be portrayed as a defender of nature.

So .. paladin .. the most common reason I have seen to choose paladin is to be able to smite while wild shaped. You can still expend spell slots for smiting so it offers an option to boost your combat wildshape ability.

Other aspects of paladin
- 1/2 caster so it has fewer spell slots than remaining a pure druid
- some spell selection though there is some overlap with druid
- heavy armor (not that useful for a druid unless you can find non-metallic heavy armor ... assuming you are playing RAW).
- fighting style - defensive boosts AC by 1 but only when wearing armor
- extra attack at level 5
- auras at 6/7 ... but needs to boost charisma ... in addition to wisdom for druid and at least 13 strength for multiclassing ... build is pretty MAD if you are planning for combat and not wild-shaped

Taking paladin to 6 or 7 gets most of the benefits of a paladin in terms of extra attack/auras. However, druid levels don't really increase your abilities to be a paladin. It offers up some interesting spell choices. However, if you plan on being a caster primarily then the paladin levels don't offer that much utility to the druid since it is melee focused.

Of course you can cast summoning spells which can be very useful. However, a character with 6 or 7 paladin won't get their first summon spell until level 11 or 12 and it will be a bit underpowered without higher level spells slots to cast it with. It could be an interesting role play choice but I think you'd find it feeling a bit lackluster at higher levels since you would tend to use either your druid abilities or your paladin ones and they don't synergize that well (of course you end up with the same number of spell slots for smiting as a paladin/sorcerer or paladin/bard but both of those options are much easier to manage since you don't need to add a high wisdom to the mix. On the other hand, the paladin could just wade in with the summoned creatures and attack as well though you may need to pick up resilient con to reduce the chances of your summoned creatures going poof.

Anyway, in my opinion, the most playable option is probably paladin 2/moon druid X adding smite to the repertoire available when combat wild shaped as well as lay on hands which you could probably also use while wild-shaped. You also pick up some first level paladin spells.

[elyktsorb]

I'd say Paladin 7 or 8, more than likely 8 since otherwise you'll just get a lvl 7 spell slot over an ASI (since I assume you're doing this more for the character than the practicality and that aura is good), then the rest Druid, start as Paladin since it would require 13 Charisma and Str to multiclass into Paladin from Druid and Druid just requires the 13 wis (just dump into Wisdom and have Sheleighliegh eventually). Charisma won't matter too much if you just use all your pally spell slots for Smites

As for the Druid side I'd go with Land. I've played a Moon Druid/Assassin Rogue, and Moon becomes really annoying to play for all those levels you don't have Magic damage in beast form (though I got surprising use out of the Dire Wolf's trip mechanic on many occasions)

Otherwise, I might even suggest Spore, which is not something I'd normally do. But it gives temp hp, hopefully by 8th level you've likely managed to get a +1 shield at least and 20 ac is pretty good so you won't run out of that temp hp immediately. The reaction necrotic damage every turn is pretty nice (when it hits) fungal infestation is pretty garbo tho. Do not recommend spore for campaigns with high amounts of undead since they render your additional poison damage very moot. wait that's illegal

Not suggesting Shepard because unicorn doesn't work with lay on hands and you'd be fighting between using your spells for healing or damage, and since the hp increase (for bear and unicorn) is based off druid level it'll also be somewhat less effective in a multiclass build, and Hawk isn't even worth using most of the time

[Tokuhara]

I think the nail was hit with the "done for flavor" comment. I know TECHNICALLY Paladin 7 is bad for Druid, but in the character theme (something of a Guardian of the Natural World), it makes sense.

As for combat, plan was to kinda play like a melee Cleric in a sense: wade into the fray, shield and scimitar in hand, and use a mix of spellcasting and Smites to deal with enemies. Plan on using Druid's control spells to affect target's (Warcaster is probably among the only feats I'd take) while smacking targets when necessary

[Lavaeolus]

start as Paladin since it would require 13 Charisma and Str to multiclass into Paladin from Druid and Druid just requires the 13 wis (just dump into Wisdom and have Sheleighliegh eventually).

This is one of the more commonly misunderstood D&D 5e rules, but multiclass requirements apply for both multiclassing in and out of a class. That is, a Druid cannot multiclass into another class unless they have 13 Wisdom, nor could, say, a Paladin take a Rogue level without having STR/CHA 13.

[col_impact]

For Tortle, you want Shepherd 17, life cleric 1, war mage 2 for optimal.

For paladin 2/moon druid 18 I would go with kobold, vhuman (mobility), yuan-ti, or goblin.

You want access to 9th level spells.

[Tokuhara]

I understand that, hence originally considering Paladin 3 to get the Channel (not great, but hey), smite, and the other goodies, but hence the question as to "how much Paladin works best?" That being said, this is more "optimize within theme" over "make the best character possible" because the story behind the character is the focus over "how can I min-max to do bonkers stuff."

As for Multiclass requirements, I figured dumping Int (8) and Dex (10 MAX) would allow me to not only meet Multiclass prerequisites (+2 Str and +1 Wis do a lot to get me closer, but if Half-Elf, could go the other route of +2 Cha +1 Wis +1 Str) but maybe let me get a decent Charisma and Strength (12/14 maybe?), a solid Wisdom (16), and a solid Constitution. Tortle was more to let me get away with a better overall AC vs superior stat array

[col_impact]

I understand that, hence originally considering Paladin 3 to get the Channel (not great, but hey), smite, and the other goodies, but hence the question as to "how much Paladin works best?" That being said, this is more "optimize within theme" over "make the best character possible" because the story behind the character is the focus over "how can I min-max to do bonkers stuff."

Paladin 2/ Life Cleric 1/ Shepherd Druid 17 might suit you. Insane healing, summoning, and smack ability.

[Tokuhara]

Paladin 2/ Life Cleric 1/ Shepherd Druid 17 might suit you. Insane healing, summoning, and smack ability.

Considered it, but, and this is probably Heresy at this point, but 5e 8th & 9th level spells (minus Wish) are kinda underwhelming compared to 3.5. so to me, losing them isn't a huge as in earlier editions. Besides, I'll have an 8th level slot for my up to 7th level Druid (assuming the 7/13 split) spells and 2nd level Paladin spells, so not too horrible overall

[col_impact]

Considered it, but, and this is probably Heresy at this point, but 5e 8th & 9th level spells (minus Wish) are kinda underwhelming compared to 3.5. so to me, losing them isn't a huge as in earlier editions. Besides, I'll have an 8th level slot for my up to 7th level Druid (assuming the 7/13 split) spells and 2nd level Paladin spells, so not too horrible overall

9th level Druid spell list has some must haves. If you are planning to take this character to Tier 4 you should carefully consider the final stretch and research very carefully the consequences of your decisions.

[Tokuhara]

9th level Druid spell list has some must haves. If you are planning to take this character to Tier 4 you should carefully consider the final stretch and research very carefully the consequences of your decisions.

From what I've seen: Shapechange is good, Foresight is decent, and True Res is fine. The rest are kinda...yea. I wouldn't miss them if I didn't get them, especially because I highly doubt I'll reach 9th level spellcasting (I suspect that I'll maybe hit 15 at most)

[col_impact]

From what I've seen: Shapechange is good, Foresight is decent, and True Res is fine. The rest are kinda...yea. I wouldn't miss them if I didn't get them, especially because I highly doubt I'll reach 9th level spellcasting (I suspect that I'll maybe hit 15 at most)

Become a better player if you think you can't reach level 20.

[Falconcry]

I would also make a case for Ancients Paladin 7 for resistance to all spells and Grassland Druid 13. This gets you Nature's Recovery for some short rest smite slots as well as self Haste/invisibility. Still have wildshape for escape but will be swinging your druid stick in battle.

[CTurbo]

This is a tough multiclass combo, but I do like the flavor.

I'd go Ancients Paladin 7/Moon Druid 13
I'd start Half-Elf
13 Str
14 Dex
12 Con
8 Int
16 Wis
14 Cha

Stick with medium armor + shield. Take either Defense or Dueling style. (would the +1 from Defense still work while wildshaped?)

In combat, you'd rely on Shillelagh on a club or staff when in regular form, but you'd want to fight in animal form when possible.

I don't think I would take any feats except for possibly Tough. Maxing Wis should be high priority. Bumping Cha is not a bad idea, and you'd want to either bump Con and/or take Tough.

At first I would say start Paladin 1, but you would be pretty terrible in combat so maybe starting Druid would be better to get Shillelagh asap. Either get you Wis saves so that's not a factor.

I would start Druid 2, then take all 7 Paladin levels, then Druid from there.

or

Start Paladin 2, then take 5 straight Druid levels, then 5 straight Paladin levels, then Druid from there.




EDIT: Just realized I dismissed using Tortle completely. Sorry.

Tortle Ancients Paladin 7, Moon Druid 13
Str 14
Dex 10
Con 13
Int 8
Wis 16
Cha 14

Same build as above except you skip armor and can't take Defense Style. Obviously grab Res(Con) in this scenario. I still think I'd bump Cha at some point but only after maxing Wis.

[Lavaeolus]

(would the +1 from Defense still work while wildshaped?)

In a sense: Wild Shape or no, the +1 AC applies while you are wearing armour. So technically yes, but there are complications.

When you Wild Shape, you are given the choice between whether your equipment is dropped on the floor, merged into your body, or worn by you... but the last option requires your DM to agree that it is reasonable for whatever creature to wear said equipment, "based on the creature's shape and size".

Realistically, then, you're probably not going to benefit while in beast form. D&D 5e mostly glosses over, say, the logistics of halfling armour vs goliath armour, but I doubt your DM will rule that your armour is wearable by a wolf or a crocodile.

What about natural armour, you might ask. Strictly speaking on how I would personally rule, I would say there is a distinction between "wearing armour" and "innately having natural armor", though for what it's worth I googled it and Crawford seems to agree (https://twitter.com/jeremyecrawford/status/909567326873194497).

[Tokuhara]

Become a better player if you think you can't reach level 20.

Dude. 99% of my campaigns just ended around level 10-15, whether because the group kinda just stopped playing or the story wrapped up nicely. Has actual nothing to do with my skill

As for the rest of the comments addressing the Druid Subclass, it seems Dream is not the go-to here. Figured. So Moon or Land are currently the top performers overall, and I can see why.

[Keravath]

Dude. 99% of my campaigns just ended around level 10-15, whether because the group kinda just stopped playing or the story wrapped up nicely. Has actual nothing to do with my skill

As for the rest of the comments addressing the Druid Subclass, it seems Dream is not the go-to here. Figured. So Moon or Land are currently the top performers overall, and I can see why.

If you are playing AL and the stores/game places near you run tier 4 stuff then reaching 20 is more a matter of you having the time to play than any campaign falling apart. I have several friends with multiple level 20 AL characters. My highest is level 17 at the moment. One of the main reasons to play AL is that the characters can be moved from game to game so if one falls apart you just take them to another.

[col_impact]

Dude. 99% of my campaigns just ended around level 10-15, whether because the group kinda just stopped playing or the story wrapped up nicely. Has actual nothing to do with my skill

As for the rest of the comments addressing the Druid Subclass, it seems Dream is not the go-to here. Figured. So Moon or Land are currently the top performers overall, and I can see why.

If it's AL you can take the character to other tables. So really as a player go sign up for Tier 4 mods.

With my build you get to Shapechange into a Leviathan. How sexy is that?

[Quoz]

I think there is one great opportunity here for a conquest paladin. Get your aura at 7. May want to go as high as 9 for faster access to Fear spell.

Cast fear. Then wild shape into a small white rabbit. The enemy cannot run away. Let the Monty Python quotes begin.

[col_impact]

I think there is one great opportunity here for a conquest paladin. Get your aura at 7. May want to go as high as 9 for faster access to Fear spell.

Cast fear. Then wild shape into a small white rabbit. The enemy cannot run away. Let the Monty Python quotes begin.

{Scrubbed}

[Tokuhara]

So secondary question: would I be better off going say Ranger 3 over Paladin and shift fluff slightly over trying to make the Oath of Ancients Paladin try and work without gimping myself eight ways from Sunday

[CTurbo]

So secondary question: would I be better off going say Ranger 3 over Paladin and shift fluff slightly over trying to make the Oath of Ancients Paladin try and work without gimping myself eight ways from Sunday


It is definitely "easier" to go Ranger/Druid as they two classes go very well together and share the same ASI dependencies.

Either Gloom Stalker or Hunter go well with Druid. I'd stick to 5 levels though if you want to remain combat oriented.

This also opens up many more race options as anything that could boost Wis would do.
Wood Elf being probably the most "nature" related aside from Firbolg.
Either Ghostwise Halfling or Kalashtar give you telepathy.
Hill Dwarf would be extra tough.
Lizardfolk for an even beastier character.
Water Genasi is pretty close to being nature themed.

[iTreeby]

It is definitely "easier" to go Ranger/Druid as they two classes go very well together and share the same ASI dependencies.

Either Gloom Stalker or Hunter go well with Druid. I'd stick to 5 levels though if you want to remain combat oriented.

This also opens up many more race options as anything that could boost Wis would do.
Wood Elf being probably the most "nature" related aside from Firbolg.
Either Ghostwise Halfling or Kalashtar give you telepathy.
Hill Dwarf would be extra tough.
Lizardfolk for an even beastier character.
Water Genasi is pretty close to being nature themed.

Important to remember that racial abilities often carry over to wildshape forms, telepathy is a big deal for communication when you are an animal, lizardfolk or tortol give different ac formula.

[Tokuhara]

I had actually considered Monster Hunter 3 for the mini combo of Slayer's Prey and Hunter's Mark while Wildshaped in a combat form. +2d6 damage ain't much, but it's kind of cute

[CTurbo]

I had actually considered Monster Hunter 3 for the mini combo of Slayer's Prey and Hunter's Mark while Wildshaped in a combat form. +2d6 damage ain't much, but it's kind of cute

I think the Hunter's Colossus Slayer is superior. It's a d8 and doesn't cost a bonus action to use. Either way I think Gloom Stalker is best.

[Tokuhara]

Either way, whether Slayer, MH, or Gloomstalker, that does limit my race choice Tortle, Human, Wood Elf, or Half Elf. Tortle seems best for most Wildshape forms overall, because AC

[CTurbo]

Either way, whether Slayer, MH, or Gloomstalker, that does limit my race choice Tortle, Human, Wood Elf, or Half Elf. Tortle seems best for most Wildshape forms overall, because AC


Why does that limit your race choices to just those? I would strongly consider Ghostwise Halfling for the telepathy.

Envoy Warforged could work too if you want a high AC. You'd just need to refluff it a bit. Maybe you're 99% made of wood? Like you're literally a part of the forest. I can't think of an appropriate nature related tool though.

[Tokuhara]

Adventurers League rules (PHB+1) limit me if I go into XGTE (XGTE being my +1 because good spells and most decent Ranger Subclasses)

Also, forgot Hill Dwarf in that list unless I skip out on XGTE for another book, barring me finding an Eberron game, which allows Warforged, Shifter (little iffy on that one), and Mark of Healing Halfling

And to be fair, Plan B (aka: Can't Make any of this work in my head) is either my backup LE Dragonborn Conquest Paladin or a Lizardfolk Tempest Cleric