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View Full Version : called shots on most attacks: spice up the fight or bog it down?



King of Nowhere
2020-03-27, 12:26 PM
I have seen the optional rule table for called shots for pathfinder (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/other-rules/called-shots/), and it intrigued me.
the mechanic as presented is extremely limited: you have to take a full round action and the chance of inflicting a severe penalty is low. not worth the effort. at best, you could take the related feats, in which case it would become just another combat style. saving throw DC scales with to-hit bonus, so passing a saving throw to mitigate the damage is nigh impossible past level 5.

However, what I like about that table is the fluff.
combat is all done in abstract. you hit threee times, deal 65 damage. you take 40 damage. you still are on positive hp, so nothing to worry about. I feel that "you took a severe blow to your arm, now you have a small penalty on using it" or "your strike to the head leaves the opponent dazed, he clearly has troubles focusing" is much more immersive. And it's not just a description thing. my dm tried to describe fights, but it got stale pretty quickly. if there was some mechanical effect to go with the description, however...

So I am considering the idea of applying some random effect from called shots at every round a character is dealt significant damage. not once every attack, as that would favor builds with many attacks. Say, every time you lose 10% of your maximum hp in a round, or 20%. the effect would be rolled at random; easy shots are more likely, challenging shots are less likely.
Now, there are many mechanical challenges to applying this thing. the main one is that it may improve area effects for wizards by also adding random debuffs. Easy solutions: spells don't cause called shots. after all, a fireball does not break your arm or sever your neck. Exceptions can be made for specific spells with specific effect - for example, a force orb deals bludgeoning damage, so it could result in called shot damage.
Alternatively, as sound damage can deafen you and acid can get into your eyes, say that elemental damage can trigger called shot depending on its type, but only if the saving throw fails by 10 or more. this will allow some cool effects to happen while keeping it rare enough that it won't affect balance too much.
another difficulty would be coming up with a sane DC for the saving throws.

but anyway, all those mechanical difficulties can be solved with some tinkering. let's assume that they are solved.

I am thinking that this mechanism could make combat more alive. it would especially help differentiate fights. taking damage would be a different experience depending on the effects you roll. I plan to try it the next time I DM (which won't be before several months in any case, anyway)

Major criticism involves fights going too swingy (which I don't think is a real concern, as all debuffs are minor unless you are taking tons of damage; and in that case, the fight is going poorly anyway. fights would be a bit more swingy, but not too much), or getting too complicated if you have to roll random debuffs virtually after every turn, and keep track of them.

I wanted to ask your opinion. Do you think the reward is worth the cost? is there anyone who tried something similar, and if so, how did it go?

Shpadoinkle
2020-03-27, 03:26 PM
Bogs it down, definitely. On TOP of it generally being harder and more chancy, you ALSO have to remember all these modifiers once they've been inflicted.

HouseRules
2020-03-27, 03:37 PM
I would only let Players and "Named Characters" do called shots.
Generic Monsters and NPCs do not deserve to do called shots.
"Named Characters" refer to a small list of plot important heroes and villains.

Clearly, most of them are the Bosses. Disc-One Final Boss is usually the first among them.

Kayblis
2020-03-27, 04:03 PM
The way it's been implemented in other d20 systems is having Called Shot be an option on top of your attack. You choose to make a 'Called Shot' attack by targetting a body area, and take a penalty accordingly(-4 for arms, -6 for hand, -8 for head, etc). Each hit inflicts the damage onto that specific body part, and if it's above X% of your max health(varying per body part), you apply a negative effect. Strong attacks can flat-out break a limb, as those would already take a good chunk of your health anyways if it wasn't targetted.

Do keep in mind that rules like that add lethality to the system, and another layer of complexity that some players just don't want. Please don't make it a random system, people already have to deal with randomness enough, another random roll breaking your good arm is not an idea people will welcome.

I suggest looking up a Palladium Fantasy sourcebook or forum on the matter, it's a good system and the only things you'd need to adjust are numerical. This could also be in the Homebrew section.

Quertus
2020-03-28, 10:53 AM
Lots of random situational modifiers is not my idea of fun. How does it interact with healing? How does it affect game balance? What feats, items, and spells will you be adding to the game (go world-building) to reflect this change? How much will you allow the PCs to retcon if you find that it breaks the game?

IMO, it's not worth it. Unless your group finds combat really boring, I wouldn't even consider making this change - and, even then, I might look for better solutions to the underlying problem, unless this was explicitly what your players called out as what they were looking for.

King of Nowhere
2020-03-28, 01:21 PM
Lots of random situational modifiers is not my idea of fun. How does it interact with healing?

healing enough damage also gets rid of negative effects



How does it affect game balance?

pcs and npcs inflict called shots with equal ease. martials are more lifely to suffer from it, being in the front line, but they are also the ones more likely to cause them, since most magic would not cause called shots. so, balance should be neutral




How much will you allow the PCs to retcon if you find that it breaks the game?


my current plan is to try it if i have the chance, but dump it entirely if it doesn't work as intended.

Glimbur
2020-03-30, 07:29 PM
pcs and npcs inflict called shots with equal ease. martials are more lifely to suffer from it, being in the front line, but they are also the ones more likely to cause them, since most magic would not cause called shots. so, balance should be neutral



Monsters tend to only see one fight. PC's are in almost every fight. Lingering damage from the previous fights will be annoying. It does not sound balance neutral to me.

Psyren
2020-03-31, 10:11 AM
I have seen the optional rule table for called shots for pathfinder (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/other-rules/called-shots/), and it intrigued me.
the mechanic as presented is extremely limited: you have to take a full round action and the chance of inflicting a severe penalty is low. not worth the effort. at best, you could take the related feats, in which case it would become just another combat style. saving throw DC scales with to-hit bonus, so passing a saving throw to mitigate the damage is nigh impossible past level 5.

I'm confused, why is taking the feats a problem? Spending feats for action economy is exactly the sort of thing you should be spending your feats on. To me this is like calling Improved Trip or Rapid Shot "extremely limited."

Anyway, addressing your idea more directly:


healing enough damage also gets rid of negative effects

Are you including the effects that need regeneration or restoration to heal on your passive table? Most people don't want their character to lose an arm or both eyes at level 3, they're probably just done adventuring at that point even if they survive. I wager that if they wanted to play gritty Conan they would play that, not Pathfinder.


pcs and npcs inflict called shots with equal ease. martials are more lifely to suffer from it, being in the front line, but they are also the ones more likely to cause them, since most magic would not cause called shots. so, balance should be neutral

Except it won't be. For starters, casters can easily inflict these "passive called shots" while staying out of harms way themselves. Even if you rule that touch attacks and rays can't do this at all, there's still summons, or conjured weapons that attack normally like Spiritual Weapon or Twilight Knife, to say nothing of pets like animal companions, eidolons and phantoms. Basically anything you do to make melee more lethal does boost the casters' stock value, because they have more ability to participate in a melee system without being in harm's way themselves. You've also made battlefield control much more important, because a fighter who gets surrounded under your system is going to end up getting debuffed eventually, possibly even crippled, unless you only run fights where the PCs outnumber the monsters - leading to a difficulty spiral after one or two unlucky hits as the martial struggles to come back from a negative position.


TL;DR - What your system effectively does is give every single monster, summon, companion and weaponlike spell Greater Called Shot for free but put it on a % miss chance. Sure the martials in the party get it too, but they are hopelessly outnumbered on both sides. Regardless of what you set that % to, it's still too swingy for me - gating it behind feats and an action cost/attack penalty at least helps guarantee that it only shows up in truly significant encounters, usually crafted boss fights, where the difficulty spike is warranted and can be planned for. Both sides getting something passive doesn't make it symmetrical, because monsters and summons are disposable by design while martial PCs are not.