Magic Initiate, Eldritch Blast and scaling

[Brimlock]

My mono-class Paladin is about to hit 8th Level and take a Feat. If he were to take Magic Initiate and pick up Eldritch Blast (in order to give himself a sorely lacking decent ranged combat option), would he be able to fire it twice per attack (since his Character Level is ≥ 5th), or only once (because he isn't ≥ 5th Level in Warlock, so the cantrip remains stuck/frozen at its Level 1 power level)?

The spell description states: "The spell creates more than one beam when you reach higher levels: two beams at 5th level, three beams at 11th level, and four beams at 17th level." The wording seems to me to indicate that the cantrip's power scales with Character Level, but I wanted to make sure.

Thanks, community!

[tyckspoon]

By character level. It's one of the things that is often argued about/recommended as a nerf to Eldritch Blast in order to make Warlock dips or sniping it with a feat less attractive.

[Segev]

Cantrips in general scale on character level, not level in any particular class.

[Anymage]

Thirding the bit about cantrips scaling by character level, not class level.

And by itself, EB isn't that much better than picking Firebolt off the sorcerer list instead. Where EB really shines is when you can add bonus damage per hit abilities. This does create problems where someone who dipped two levels of warlock can deal the same sustained DPR that a full classed warlock can. But someone who picks EB out of the Spell Sniper feat, or who picks it from Magic Initiate but doesn't think to also grab Hex (and honestly, Hex is the bigger culprit if the character has any natural multiattack capability) won't be skewing the curve too badly.

[Segev]

Even WITH Magic Initiate for hex, that's unlikely to be every combat. If you're really lucky, you manage 2-3 combats with it up before you take a short rest. More likely, 1, maybe 2. So, at best, it's a "between any two rests" ability, that wears out when you have to short rest and doesn't refresh until you long rest.

Sure, dipping 2 levels of Warlock for hex and Agonizing Blast can get it to some serious damage, but at that point, you're devoting significant resources to it. "But it's just as good as the dedicated warlock!" is a silly complaint when the dedicated warlock can do better if he really wants to; it's a question of what you want out of it.

[Amechra]

Thirding the bit about cantrips scaling by character level, not class level.

And by itself, EB isn't that much better than picking Firebolt off the sorcerer list instead. Where EB really shines is when you can add bonus damage per hit abilities. This does create problems where someone who dipped two levels of warlock can deal the same sustained DPR that a full classed warlock can. But someone who picks EB out of the Spell Sniper feat, or who picks it from Magic Initiate but doesn't think to also grab Hex (and honestly, Hex is the bigger culprit if the character has any natural multiattack capability) won't be skewing the curve too badly.

It's still better than Firebolt before you factor in damage increasers - it's more flexible, and Force is much better than Fire when it comes to bypassing damage resistance.

[Segev]

It's still better than Firebolt before you factor in damage increasers - it's more flexible, and Force is much better than Fire when it comes to bypassing damage resistance.

In the good-and-bad column is that you roll to hit independently with each of the blasts. Whereas firebolt is a single to-hit roll.

[Anymage]

It's still better than Firebolt before you factor in damage increasers - it's more flexible, and Force is much better than Fire when it comes to bypassing damage resistance.

That's why I said it "isn't that much better". I'd absolutely recommend it over Firebolt, but I don't think EB without per-hit damage buffs will do worse things to balance than substituting in Firebolt would. And I can't remember the last time I saw someone complain about normal caster cantrips being an overpowering damage source.

[Amechra]

In the good-and-bad column is that you roll to hit independently with each of the blasts. Whereas firebolt is a single to-hit roll.

This is true.


That's why I said it "isn't that much better". I'd absolutely recommend it over Firebolt, but I don't think EB without per-hit damage buffs will do worse things to balance than substituting in Firebolt would. And I can't remember the last time I saw someone complain about normal caster cantrips being an overpowering damage source.

This is also true. Honestly, cantrips tend to be pretty behind when it comes to damage, which makes cantrips that only deal damage kinda disappointing.

[thereaper]

Even WITH Magic Initiate for hex, that's unlikely to be every combat. If you're really lucky, you manage 2-3 combats with it up before you take a short rest. More likely, 1, maybe 2. So, at best, it's a "between any two rests" ability, that wears out when you have to short rest and doesn't refresh until you long rest.

Sure, dipping 2 levels of Warlock for hex and Agonizing Blast can get it to some serious damage, but at that point, you're devoting significant resources to it. "But it's just as good as the dedicated warlock!" is a silly complaint when the dedicated warlock can do better if he really wants to; it's a question of what you want out of it.

The bigger issue with the 2 level warlock dip is that you're putting yourself an entire spell level behind. So, yes, you can make yourself competitive with the Warlock's dpr, but only by making yourself worse at casting than that same Warlock. :smallbiggrin:

That's the thing about the Warlock: it is the gish class that everyone's always wanted. It has full martial prowess, and full casting at the same time.

[Amechra]

The bigger issue with the 2 level warlock dip is that you're putting yourself an entire spell level behind. So, yes, you can make yourself competitive with the Warlock's dpr, but only by making yourself worse at casting than that same Warlock. :smallbiggrin:

That's the thing about the Warlock: it is the gish class that everyone's always wanted. It has full martial prowess, and full casting at the same time.

Honestly, a Pact of Tomes Warlock with Book of Secrets does a better job of conveying "mighty spellcaster" to me than most full casters. You get nice, steady access to magic over the course of the day, you have utility in the form of ritual spells, and you rain down magical bolts of death in combat. If anything, that's what full casters should've looked like in general, instead of ending up with 22 spell slots by 20th level.

[thereaper]

Honestly, a Pact of Tomes Warlock with Book of Secrets does a better job of conveying "mighty spellcaster" to me than most full casters. You get nice, steady access to magic over the course of the day, you have utility in the form of ritual spells, and you rain down magical bolts of death in combat. If anything, that's what full casters should've looked like in general, instead of ending up with 22 spell slots by 20th level.

And I was going to point that out if anyone brought up the idea of dipping warlock at 18th level. Yes, you can do that, and it'll be strong, but now you're giving up either the best ritual casting in the game or Devil's Sight, not to mention an ASI that you could have spent on Alert, or +2 Con, or Resilient, or Crossbow Expert, or any number of other amazing feats..

[Anymage]

Honestly, a Pact of Tomes Warlock with Book of Secrets does a better job of conveying "mighty spellcaster" to me than most full casters. You get nice, steady access to magic over the course of the day, you have utility in the form of ritual spells, and you rain down magical bolts of death in combat. If anything, that's what full casters should've looked like in general, instead of ending up with 22 spell slots by 20th level.

Heartily agreed. I do think that vancian spell slots will be with us as long as D&D is, simply because fans will go nuts if it deviates too much from what they're used to. But so many of their alternate casting ideas have fit most people's mental image of a caster far better than your wizards or clerics do.

[Chronos]

I still miss the 3rd edition Binder. Now, that felt like a magical class should. And it was fairly well-balanced.

[Eldariel]

Thirding the bit about cantrips scaling by character level, not class level.

And by itself, EB isn't that much better than picking Firebolt off the sorcerer list instead. Where EB really shines is when you can add bonus damage per hit abilities. This does create problems where someone who dipped two levels of warlock can deal the same sustained DPR that a full classed warlock can. But someone who picks EB out of the Spell Sniper feat, or who picks it from Magic Initiate but doesn't think to also grab Hex (and honestly, Hex is the bigger culprit if the character has any natural multiattack capability) won't be skewing the curve too badly.

Magic Initiate for Hex isn't that amazing. You have only 1/Long Rest and it's target specific so the duration is all but worthless. So you can use it on one enemy per day. Better hope you don't have multiple encounters. Warlock slot recovery only works for Warlocks (one of the big reasons for the Warlock dip being so decent).

[BloodSnake'sCha]

My I ask why not take it with spell sniper?

[Keravath]

Magic Initiate for Hex isn't that amazing. You have only 1/Long Rest and it's target specific so the duration is all but worthless. So you can use it on one enemy per day. Better hope you don't have multiple encounters. Warlock slot recovery only works for Warlocks (one of the big reasons for the Warlock dip being so decent).

Actually, once the target is dead you can move the hex to a new target for the cost of a bonus action so it is NOT one enemy per day. However, hex is concentration so you can't use other concentration spells and you have to maintain concentration for the entire hour it is up which can be difficult for melee characters since even if they have a good save they will fail eventually.

However, I find most 1/day first level spells that can be picked with Magic Initiate to be lackluster just due to the fact you only get one casting. Find familiar might be an exception. Hex at least lasts an hour, can hit multiple consecutive targets, may span more than one combat and has some social applications since it imposes disadvantage on a specified set of ability checks.

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P.S. Eldritch blast is better than firebolt but not much. It does force damage and allows for multiple attack rolls so the odds of at least doing some damage are reasonable. EB also stacks better with damage boosters like hex or hunter's mark [hunters mark is weapon damage only - thanks for the reminder!] ... so taking Spell Sniper or Magic Initiate on a Vengeance paladin to obtain EB can be ok.

However, the average damage from firebolt and eldritch blast, ignoring resistances are the same. EB is particularly effective only when combined with agonizing blast which adds the static charisma modifier, which with 20 charisma actually almost doubles the average damage of each bolt.

[Segev]

My I ask why not take it with spell sniper?

Little reason not to. Unless you wanted another cantrip and one/day first level spell from Warlock.

Heck, if you don’t need it for early levels or are playing a Vuman, I would see it reasonable for a Warlock to take Spell Sniper for EB rather than using one of his normal cantrip slots for it.

[Chronos]

Actually, Eldritch Blast does not stack better with Hunter's Mark, since it can't be used with it at all. Unlike Hex, Hunter's Mark only works with weapon attacks.

[thereaper]

I still miss the 3rd edition Binder. Now, that felt like a magical class should. And it was fairly well-balanced.

So true. And it had the most amazing fluff ever. You can sort of port it in the GOO Warlock, but the mechanics are gone.

I also appreciated how the Binder was technically a No Attribute class. The 3.5 Warlock was too, for that matter, and it made a heck of a lot more sense than Charisma, given how it was the easy way to power.

[greenstone]

My mono-class Paladin is about to hit 8th Level and take a Feat. If he were to take Magic Initiate and pick up Eldritch Blast (in order to give himself a sorely lacking decent ranged combat option), would he be able to fire it twice per attack (since his Character Level is ≥ 5th), or only once (because he isn't ≥ 5th Level in Warlock, so the cantrip remains stuck/frozen at its Level 1 power level)?
As a frame challenge, is giving up an ASI to get a spell that has the same range as a javelin really worth it? You might be better off taking +2 STR. Alternatively, you could take Sharpshooter, so you can throw javelins (using STR) to long range without disadvantage, and then add STR to your damage rolls. At level 11, Improved Divine Smite applies to throwing that javelin (though Divine Smite does not).

Eldritch blast is nice that it does force damage, but as a paladin you'll never be adding anything to that d10.

[Eldariel]

Actually, once the target is dead you can move the hex to a new target for the cost of a bonus action so it is NOT one enemy per day. However, hex is concentration so you can't use other concentration spells and you have to maintain concentration for the entire hour it is up which can be difficult for melee characters since even if they have a good save they will fail eventually.

However, I find most 1/day first level spells that can be picked with Magic Initiate to be lackluster just due to the fact you only get one casting. Find familiar might be an exception. Hex at least lasts an hour, can hit multiple consecutive targets, may span more than one combat and has some social applications since it imposes disadvantage on a specified set of ability checks.

Oh yeah, I somehow thought you had to carry it over to another enemy but it just says you hold it until you can recast it. Okay, that makes it pretty good for anyone who doesn't need Concentration for more useful things.

[Amechra]

However, I find most 1/day first level spells that can be picked with Magic Initiate to be lackluster just due to the fact you only get one casting. Find familiar might be an exception. Hex at least lasts an hour, can hit multiple consecutive targets, may span more than one combat and has some social applications since it imposes disadvantage on a specified set of ability checks.

Mage Armor is another exception, especially if you're playing a Dexterity-focused character.