PDA

View Full Version : Balance check on tweaks to Warlock class



BarneyBent
2020-03-27, 08:45 PM
So these probably aren't radical or new ideas, but I wanted some feedback on some balance-fixing ideas for the Warlock.

The issues being addressed:

1. Eldritch Blast (and Agonizing Blast) making a 2-level dip into Warlock near mandatory for the strict optimisation of CHA-based casters due to it being a cantrip that scales with character level, yet performing the role of the Attack action.

2. Eldritch Blast being a spell, which somewhat unbalances things with Warcaster opportunity attacks.

3. Hexblade specifically is an amazing 1 level dip for CHA-SAD builds to the point of being overpowered.

Proposed solutions:

1. Eldritch Blast is no longer a cantrip. It is instead a ranged spell attack option available to you, somewhat like a Sun Soul Monk's Radiant Sun Bolt, but I'd remove the restriction that it can only be used with the Attack action and say it can replace any weapon attack you would normally be allowed to make (including Attacks of Opportunity, but relevant range is 5ft, it's at disadvantage, and only one beam). No Agonizing Blast invocation necessary, CHA to damage out of the box.

2. Extra Attack at level 5, 11 and 20, but only when attacking with Eldritch Blast.

3. New invocation that removes disadvantage when Eldritch Blasting while an enemy is within 5 ft (removing incentive for anti-flavorful Crossbow Expert dips).

3. Blade Pact gets CHA attacking at 3, and doesn't need to use Eldritch Blast in order to benefit from extra attacks. (I am a bit concerned about how to control for Paladin 2 dips with this).

4. Hexblade gets something else at level 1. Maybe Heavy Armor, though that might incentivise 1-level dips for different reasons. Yet to be determined, ideas welcome.

Grod_The_Giant
2020-03-27, 09:17 PM
I'd have to recommend against 1-- especially the "in place of any weapon attack you would normally be allowed to make" bit. Flurry of Blows? More like flurry of blasts. Polearm Master? More like blast-arm master. Crossbow Expert just got more appealing. There are just too many things that give bonus-action attacks, and too many of them are available at very low levels. The usual suggestion is to make Eldritch Blast into a class feature, something like:


Eldritch Blast: As an action, you may make a ranged spell attack against a target within 120ft, using your Charisma modifier. On a hit, the target takes 1d10+Cha force damage. You must have at least one hand free and be able to speak in order to use your Eldritch Blast.

Beginning at 5th level, you may make two ranged spell attacks when you use this ability, each dealing 1d10+Cha force damage. You may direct the two blasts at the same or different targets. At 11th level, you may make three attacks, and at 17th you may make four.


As for Hexblade, you could drop Hex Warrior altogether and it'll still be a seriously strong choice. I'd keep clear of Charisma-to-attack altogether, but add armor and shield proficiencies to Pact of the Blade itself.

BarneyBent
2020-03-27, 10:59 PM
I'd have to recommend against 1-- especially the "in place of any weapon attack you would normally be allowed to make" bit. Flurry of Blows? More like flurry of blasts. Polearm Master? More like blast-arm master. Crossbow Expert just got more appealing. There are just too many things that give bonus-action attacks, and too many of them are available at very low levels.

This illustrates the difficulty getting wording right haha. The intent is absolutely not that you could replace Polearm Master or Crossbow Expert bonus action attacks, as they specify the attacks must a) be done with a specific weapon and b) can only triggered by attacks with a specific subset of weapons (certain polearms and one handed weapons respectively). But I can see that's ambiguous and needs better wording.

The intent is more that you can use your EB with the Attack Action, as Opportunity Attacks (I'm less sold on that, maybe roll it into the other invocation?), and certain bonus action and reaction attacks (e.g. Order Cleric, War Cleric, Battlemaster manoeuvres, etc).


As for Hexblade, you could drop Hex Warrior altogether and it'll still be a seriously strong choice. I'd keep clear of Charisma-to-attack altogether, but add armor and shield proficiencies to Pact of the Blade itself.

Eh, maybe. I quite like CHA to attack, I just think a single level dip is too cheap, especially when you get EB as a cantrip on top of it. Changing the way EB works to scale with Warlock level, and locking CHA SADness behind a) a three level dip and b) making it mutually exclusive with Chain- and Tome-locks makes it far more balanced IMO.

So no SAD Padlocks with ritual casting or pet Imps, for example.

LudicSavant
2020-03-28, 03:29 AM
One of the (many) things that makes Hexblade so well-suited for a dip is that they get the Shield spell. The funny thing about this being on their list is that it actually helps multiclass Hexblades way more than it helps pure Warlock Hexblades. Shield is nice and all, but much less so when you're trading a big spell slot for it.



2. Extra Attack at level 5, 11 and 20, but only when attacking with Eldritch Blast.

3. Blade Pact gets CHA attacking at 3, and doesn't need to use Eldritch Blast in order to benefit from extra attacks. (I am a bit concerned about how to control for Paladin 2 dips with this).
Wait, are you saying that they would get 3 weapon attacks at 11 and 4 at 20? I think that would be excessive, if so.


As for Hexblade, you could drop Hex Warrior altogether and it'll still be a seriously strong choice. I'd keep clear of Charisma-to-attack altogether, but add armor and shield proficiencies to Pact of the Blade itself.

The question of when to grant armor proficiencies is a somewhat tricky business. If you put them at level 1, it becomes a more attractive dip. But if you put them later on, you have this sort of odd progression where if you build appropriately for a future Medium Armor guy, you're squishy as heck before the point where you actually get the medium armor / shield.

Galithar
2020-03-28, 05:55 AM
For the Pact of the Blade I definitely wouldn't give them 4 attacks. With the level 12 invocation to add CHA to damage it becomes a little too powerful. Add on the possibility of Eldritch Smite, and they can be GWM attacking from darkness they can see through for 8d6+80 (2d6 Greatsword + 5 CHA + 5 Lifedrinker CHA + 10 GWM * 4) at level 20 with additional 6d8 force on smites. It's just a little bit too good and makes the fighter exclusive of 4 attacks feel weak in comparison. At least with the EB they Cami add a weapon feat or the second addition of CHA per hit to damage.

Addaran
2020-03-28, 07:31 AM
I really wouldn't give more then two attacks to blade warlock. The only class with improved extra attack is fighter and that's by design.



Eh, maybe. I quite like CHA to attack, I just think a single level dip is too cheap, especially when you get EB as a cantrip on top of it. Changing the way EB works to scale with Warlock level, and locking CHA SADness behind a) a three level dip and b) making it mutually exclusive with Chain- and Tome-locks makes it far more balanced IMO.

So no SAD Padlocks with ritual casting or pet Imps, for example.

Tome-lock are the original CHA to attacks though. They could pick shillelagh before Hex was a thing. And with SCAG cantrips, it even made up for not having extra attack like blade-lock.

MrStabby
2020-03-29, 08:26 AM
I think gating agonising blast till 4th level would fix the dipping.

At low levels the 2 level 3 spells per short rest is attractive compared to other casters so they are losing a bit of power where they are already relatively strong.

Dipping for just eldritch blast is still... ok but you dont really get nearly as much for that dip. If you dip for the invocation as well then you have to invest a lot more - which is fine, and still an appropriate return.

Still, it would be nice to give warlocks a little bit of something more in exchange at higher levels - something to stop them being too dull.

47Ace
2020-03-29, 12:37 PM
I like the concept of your warlock changes and do wish that that was how the class was originally set up. If nothing else it would reduce the number of warlocks don't have enough slots theads as the warlock are fighters with a bit of magic fact would be more obvious. I even like the giving Blade locks 4 attacks part. For those worried about pushing in on the fighters design space warlock already do that eldritch blast with agonizing blast is the equivalent of a heavy cross bow and warlocks get their 4th attack at 17th not at 20th. Whether or not eldritch blast not having a SS equivalent is a balancing factor that I am overlooking or just an oversight in the name simplicity is hard to tell. One thing to be cautious about with giving bladelocks 4 attacks is that there may be things that simulate the level 11 damage bump (like chr to damage) that would be double dipped on. But, you could solve that by getting ride of any such features.

Rowan Wolf
2020-03-29, 06:49 PM
It might be more trouble than it is worth, but maybe remove eldritch blast as cantrip, make it an invocation that scales with warlock levels or an invocation that converts another cantrip to have similar functionality. If you want it to be a from level one option maybe subtract a cantrip known and add it an invocation know.

Millstone85
2020-03-29, 07:22 PM
Here is the kind of fix I would make:

Agonizing Blast
Prerequisite: eldritch blast cantrip
When you cast eldritch blast, add your Charisma modifier to the damage it deals on its first hit. This invocation applies to more than one hit when you reach higher levels in the warlock class: first two hits at 5th level, first three hits at 11th level, and all hits at 17th level.

For a single-class warlock, this makes no difference. Only multiclassing is nerfed.

bid
2020-03-29, 07:50 PM
I think gating agonising blast till 4th level would fix the dipping.
Might as well have AB(1) be a class feature and gate the full AB to level 5.

47Ace
2020-03-29, 08:06 PM
Here is the kind of fix I would make:

Agonizing Blast
Prerequisite: eldritch blast cantrip
When you cast eldritch blast, add your Charisma modifier to the damage it deals on its first hit. This invocation applies to more than one hit when you reach higher levels in the warlock class: first two hits at 5th level, first three hits at 11th level, and all hits at 17th level.

For a single-class warlock, this makes no difference. Only multiclassing is nerfed.

That's a nice clean way of doing it well done I like that I may steal that if the situation comes up.

DarknessEternal
2020-03-29, 10:05 PM
Here is the kind of fix I would make:

Agonizing Blast
Prerequisite: eldritch blast cantrip
When you cast eldritch blast, add your Charisma modifier to the damage it deals on its first hit. This invocation applies to more than one hit when you reach higher levels in the warlock class: first two hits at 5th level, first three hits at 11th level, and all hits at 17th level.

For a single-class warlock, this makes no difference. Only multiclassing is nerfed.

I presume you think longbows are far too powerful as well then? They don't even require multiclassing.

JNAProductions
2020-03-29, 10:07 PM
I presume you think longbows are far too powerful as well then? They don't even require multiclassing.

To get four attacks? Yes, they don’t require multiclassing. In fact, they require Fighter 20.

TheUser
2020-03-29, 10:34 PM
Best fix to Warlocks we've come up with was streamlined and extremely simple:

Invocations that grant you a new spell that can be cast once before a long rest no longer expend the Pact slot that is used to cast them.

So that includes Bane, Bestow Curse, Confusion, Polymorph, Conjure Elemental

Firstly; these are all concentration spells (except Bestow Curse after level 9) and so the Warlock, while gaining a bit more longevity, still has to worry about their choices.

bid
2020-03-30, 12:04 AM
Best fix to Warlocks we've come up with was streamlined and extremely simple:
How does that fix the warlock 2 dip?

TheUser
2020-03-30, 12:16 AM
Better Invocations and rewards for being a pure warlock. Buff alterior venues instead of nerfing what is popular and fun.

Personally I think the warlock 2 dip is only optimal in rare circumstances. More often than not it's better to get higher level spells.

Shifting Hexblade's charisma modifier to hit and damage for weapons over to pact of the blade is a solid start.

KOLE
2020-03-30, 12:21 AM
In my games, I use a house rule borrowed from another forum member.

Eldritch Blast becomes a Warlock class feature at level 1. They have a free cantrip choice, now. Still get all the benefits at level 5, 11, 17- just requires warlock levels now. I don’t have to worry about it too much because my table doesn’t try too many shenanigans. I’ve debated level gating Agonizing Blast, since Warlocks are the ONLY ones that get to add spellcasting modifier to cantrips at level 2- but have gone back and forth on it. They really do need something to do all day because they’re slinging less spells than everyone else, but man being able to outdo most martials in tier 1 all day long from 120 feet away bothers me a little bit. Still undecided.

From here, I also strip Hex Warrior from Hexblade- but leave everything else in tact. CHA to damage gets folded in with blade pact, medium armor and shield prof becomes a Blade exclusive invocation, making it an Invo tax instead of a feat tax. This change also actually helps the Hexblade’s fluff- makes it more generic Shadowfell influenced rather than having to do with sentient weapons. I also change the expanded spell list to do more with shadow, but I’m not quite happy with it yet.

Oh, and I also allow all the spell Invos to be cast without using a slot, only once per day, but that’s not really relevant here.

MrStabby
2020-03-30, 06:25 AM
Might as well have AB(1) be a class feature and gate the full AB to level 5.

I was not trying to stamp out warlock multiclass, just to make it a harder choice. There are plenty of great characters I have seen that have had an investment in warlock and I think that option adds to the game.


Best fix to Warlocks we've come up with was streamlined and extremely simple:

Invocations that grant you a new spell that can be cast once before a long rest no longer expend the Pact slot that is used to cast them.

So that includes Bane, Bestow Curse, Confusion, Polymorph, Conjure Elemental

Firstly; these are all concentration spells (except Bestow Curse after level 9) and so the Warlock, while gaining a bit more longevity, still has to worry about their choices.
This really helps balance the invocations but also helps give the warlock the long rest resources it needs in order to be fun in big fights.


In my games, I use a house rule borrowed from another forum member.

Eldritch Blast becomes a Warlock class feature at level 1. They have a free cantrip choice, now. Still get all the benefits at level 5, 11, 17- just requires warlock levels now. I don’t have to worry about it too much because my table doesn’t try too many shenanigans. I’ve debated level gating Agonizing Blast, since Warlocks are the ONLY ones that get to add spellcasting modifier to cantrips at level 2- but have gone back and forth on it. They really do need something to do all day because they’re slinging less spells than everyone else, but man being able to outdo most martials in tier 1 all day long from 120 feet away bothers me a little bit. Still undecided.

From here, I also strip Hex Warrior from Hexblade- but leave everything else in tact. CHA to damage gets folded in with blade pact, medium armor and shield prof becomes a Blade exclusive invocation, making it an Invo tax instead of a feat tax. This change also actually helps the Hexblade’s fluff- makes it more generic Shadowfell influenced rather than having to do with sentient weapons. I also change the expanded spell list to do more with shadow, but I’m not quite happy with it yet.

Oh, and I also allow all the spell Invos to be cast without using a slot, only once per day, but that’s not really relevant here.

If we are wish listing changes... I would add the eldritch blast invocation effects to any warlock cantrip. If there is a meaningful choice between cantrips it will stop all warlocks seeming to be so similar. Either that or that there are more invocations for other cantrips as well to make them equally viable.

jmartkdr
2020-03-30, 08:00 AM
One thing I've considered:

When you get your first warlock level, you pick either Eldritch Blast (now a class feature, still a spell but scales to warlock instead of total level) OR Hex Warrior. You get this choice regardless of patron.

Hex Warrior gets medium armor from level 1. I'm not sure when to kick in Cha to attacks - 3rd, or possibly 5th. I want the option, but not too early and I don't mind saying "if you want to be a gish, you can't be a wimp." I also want a pal-lock going for +4 Aura and cha-to attack to be expensive but not necessarily impossible.

I'd probably move some invocations around - ie Thirsting Blade and Eldritch Armor might become Hex Warrior invocations instead of blade pact invocations. I'd probably have to tweak the spell list as well, but I do that anyways.

The only new shenanigans this allows for that I can think of is: if you go Celestial Hexblade Warlock to 12 and Dragon Sorcerer to 6, you could hypothetically add your charisma bonus four times to *greenflame blade* damage rolls. Which isn't even broken, just odd.

Quietus
2020-03-30, 12:18 PM
Warlock is definitely one of those classes where I'd make a few changes, but nothing that I feel is too crazy :

Eldritch Blast : As mentioned by many, this becomes a class feature. Agonizing Blast comes built-in.
Cha to attack/damage : This gets stripped off of Hexblade, and gets pushed into Pact of the Blade.
Pact of the Blade : Allows warlocks to add Cha to attack/damage, and automatically gives Extra Attack at level 5.

I also like the idea that the "spell invocations" are essentially a 1/LR spell slot of their own, and I would absolutely steal that.

Hexblade is no longer the go-to for multiclassing that it used to be. Level 1, it's giving medium armor/shields, Hexblade's Curse, and the spells available on its list. Much more in line with other Warlock subclasses. To get Cha-SAD, you have to take 3 levels, which is a much larger investment. And you don't have to be a Hexblade, so you can pick your patron to fit your fluff.

The secondary goal of these changes is to clear up the "must have" invocations, and allow a little more differentiation between warlocks - When you don't have Agonizing Blast as an invocation tax, maybe you DO take the Thief of Five Fates option.

JNAProductions
2020-03-30, 12:23 PM
Warlock is definitely one of those classes where I'd make a few changes, but nothing that I feel is too crazy :

Eldritch Blast : As mentioned by many, this becomes a class feature. Agonizing Blast comes built-in.
Cha to attack/damage : This gets stripped off of Hexblade, and gets pushed into Pact of the Blade.
Pact of the Blade : Allows warlocks to add Cha to attack/damage, and automatically gives Extra Attack at level 5.

I also like the idea that the "spell invocations" are essentially a 1/LR spell slot of their own, and I would absolutely steal that.

Hexblade is no longer the go-to for multiclassing that it used to be. Level 1, it's giving medium armor/shields, Hexblade's Curse, and the spells available on its list. Much more in line with other Warlock subclasses. To get Cha-SAD, you have to take 3 levels, which is a much larger investment. And you don't have to be a Hexblade, so you can pick your patron to fit your fluff.

The secondary goal of these changes is to clear up the "must have" invocations, and allow a little more differentiation between warlocks - When you don't have Agonizing Blast as an invocation tax, maybe you DO take the Thief of Five Fates option.

I would suggest you push Extra Attack to level 6. Warlocks are full casters, and with the change to invocations, get even more slots, effectively. No full caster gets Extra Attack at level 5-only at level 6.

Otherwise, good changes.

KOLE
2020-03-30, 12:52 PM
If we are wish listing changes... I would add the eldritch blast invocation effects to any warlock cantrip. If there is a meaningful choice between cantrips it will stop all warlocks seeming to be so similar. Either that or that there are more invocations for other cantrips as well to make them equally viable.

I actually.... Really like this. This sounds fun. Including saving throw cantrips? Also, let's pull Toll the Dead from the Warlock spell list if we're doing this. Ranged d12 cantrip +cha to damage, even if it only effects a single target? Naw fam.



I'd probably have to tweak the spell list as well, but I do that anyways.


Care to share with the class? I myself am trying to tweak the Hexblade spell list after snipping Hex Warrior. Also, I don't think it's necessary to make every Warlock pick between hex warrior or EB. that feels a little fiddly. Give em' the cantrip for free and go from there.




Eldritch Blast : As mentioned by many, this becomes a class feature. Agonizing Blast comes built-in.
Cha to attack/damage : This gets stripped off of Hexblade, and gets pushed into Pact of the Blade.
Pact of the Blade : Allows warlocks to add Cha to attack/damage, and automatically gives Extra Attack at level 5.

Hexblade is no longer the go-to for multiclassing that it used to be. Level 1, it's giving medium armor/shields, Hexblade's Curse, and the spells available on its list. Much more in line with other Warlock subclasses. To get Cha-SAD, you have to take 3 levels, which is a much larger investment. And you don't have to be a Hexblade, so you can pick your patron to fit your fluff.

The secondary goal of these changes is to clear up the "must have" invocations, and allow a little more differentiation between warlocks - When you don't have Agonizing Blast as an invocation tax, maybe you DO take the Thief of Five Fates option.

Why should Agonizing Blast be free? I agree that EB should be a class feature, but we don't need to buff the warlock TOO much. It should still be a choice. No other spellcaster gets ability score to cantrip damage built-in, it's always a part of a subclass. I think we should respect that. EB is the best damage cantrip in the game even without AB. I see no reason to make it a no brainer.

Same with most of the rest of your suggestions. Just a little tweak helps Warlocks a lot- no need to go overboard. Let's leave the choices there. No auto- extra attack, still costs an Invo. It should! No other full caster gets it except as a dedicated late subclass feature. Invos are basically choose your own feature. Keep the choice meaningful.

Also, I like making Hex Warrior's medium armor/shield prof an invocation. That's personal preference, but it's a huge buff for a caster and should remain in feat/invo territory, not free.



I would suggest you push Extra Attack to level 6. Warlocks are full casters, and with the change to invocations, get even more slots, effectively. No full caster gets Extra Attack at level 5-only at level 6.

Warlock's the exception to every rule. They get Ability Modifier to cantrips at level 2 while most full casters wait for tier 2, and extra attack at level 5 while all the other full casters get it at 6 at the soonest. I say let them keep it, we're trying to balance Warlocks to make them slightly better, not make it harder to 'lock.

MrStabby
2020-03-30, 01:15 PM
I actually.... Really like this. This sounds fun. Including saving throw cantrips? Also, let's pull Toll the Dead from the Warlock spell list if we're doing this. Ranged d12 cantrip +cha to damage, even if it only effects a single target? Naw fam.



Care to share with the class? I myself am trying to tweak the Hexblade spell list after snipping Hex Warrior. Also, I don't think it's necessary to make every Warlock pick between hex warrior or EB. that feels a little fiddly. Give em' the cantrip for free and go from there.



Why should Agonizing Blast be free? I agree that EB should be a class feature, but we don't need to buff the warlock TOO much. It should still be a choice. No other spellcaster gets ability score to cantrip damage built-in, it's always a part of a subclass. I think we should respect that. EB is the best damage cantrip in the game even without AB. I see no reason to make it a no brainer.

Same with most of the rest of your suggestions. Just a little tweak helps Warlocks a lot- no need to go overboard. Let's leave the choices there. No auto- extra attack, still costs an Invo. It should! No other full caster gets it except as a dedicated late subclass feature. Invos are basically choose your own feature. Keep the choice meaningful.

Also, I like making Hex Warrior's medium armor/shield prof an invocation. That's personal preference, but it's a huge buff for a caster and should remain in feat/invo territory, not free.




Warlock's the exception to every rule. They get Ability Modifier to cantrips at level 2 while most full casters wait for tier 2, and extra attack at level 5 while all the other full casters get it at 6 at the soonest. I say let them keep it, we're trying to balance Warlocks to make them slightly better, not make it harder to 'lock.

I think a buff is fine, but worthy of thinking at which levels a buff is warranted.

For me the power drop off comes due the the lack of flexability in casting. You basically have two modes in most games: cantrip and max power. The more different spell levels other casters have, the more inflexible you are relative to them.

On the other hand at level 2 everyone has level 1 spell slots only a warlock's come back on a short rest... plus warlocks get a better cantrip, invocations... I would say levels 6 to 10 are the space to look at if you wanted to up the class power.

From level 11 onwards the warlock drops further behind other casters but casters tend to pull ahead of the rest of the pack... so warlock is pretty squarely in the middle there in terms of power.

47Ace
2020-03-30, 01:18 PM
Why should Agonizing Blast be free? I agree that EB should be a class feature, but we don't need to buff the warlock TOO much. It should still be a choice. No other spellcaster gets ability score to cantrip damage built-in, it's always a part of a subclass. I think we should respect that. EB is the best damage cantrip in the game even without AB. I see no reason to make it a no brainer.

Same with most of the rest of your suggestions. Just a little tweak helps Warlocks a lot- no need to go overboard. Let's leave the choices there. No auto- extra attack, still costs an Invo. It should! No other full caster gets it except as a dedicated late subclass feature. Invos are basically choose your own feature. Keep the choice meaningful.

Also, I like making Hex Warrior's medium armor/shield prof an invocation. That's personal preference, but it's a huge buff for a caster and should remain in feat/invo territory, not free.

Warlock's the exception to every rule. They get Ability Modifier to cantrips at level 2 while most full casters wait for tier 2, and extra attack at level 5 while all the other full casters get it at 6 at the soonest. I say let them keep it, we're trying to balance Warlocks to make them slightly better, not make it harder to 'lock.

Because Warlocks are not spellcasters they're fighters with a bit of magic on the side, and Eldritch Blast With Agonizing Blast is a class feature comparable to longbow proficiency with all of the fighters extra attacks that is disguised as a cantrip in a mistaken (admitted by the developers) attempt at simplicity.

JNAProductions
2020-03-30, 01:19 PM
Because Warlocks are not spellcasters they're fighters with a bit of magic on the side, and Eldritch Blast With Agonizing Blast is a class feature comparable to longbow proficiency with all of the fighters extra attacks that is disguised as a cantrip in a mistaken (admitted by the developers) attempt at simplicity.

Warlocks are full casters.

47Ace
2020-03-30, 01:37 PM
Warlocks are full casters.

Technically yes, but not from the point of view of balancing them the short rest resources and at will damage of Eldritch Blast and Agonizing Blast scaling like a heavy crossbow with xbe and the fighters extra attacks means that they are balanced like fighters. Eldritch blast is balanced like a default action where as cantrips for normal spellcasters are just an alternative to dodging when not casting a leveled spell (exception for lower levels). Saying that warlocks shouldn't have eldrech blast by default is like saying that fighters shouldn't have martial weapon proficiency and extra attacks by default.

KOLE
2020-03-30, 01:43 PM
Technically yes, but not from the point of view of balancing them the short rest resources and at will damage of Eldritch Blast and Agonizing Blast scaling like a heavy crossbow with xbe and the fighters extra attacks means that they are balanced like fighters. Eldritch blast is balanced like a default action where as cantrips for normal spellcasters are just an alternative to dodging when not casting a leveled spell (exception for lower levels). Saying that warlocks shouldn't have eldrech blast by default is like saying that fighters shouldn't have martial weapon proficiency and extra attacks by default.

Making it all the more necessary to be careful with balancing. They get a heavy crossbow that uses their spellcasting modifier from level 2. They get Fighter extra attack on that heavy crossbow. And they get to cast a 9th level spell at level 17 like every other full caster. When tweaking the class, you have to be careful. Saying it's not a full caster obfuscates the issue and makes finding the balance point more difficult.

Quietus
2020-03-30, 01:49 PM
Why should Agonizing Blast be free? I agree that EB should be a class feature, but we don't need to buff the warlock TOO much. It should still be a choice. No other spellcaster gets ability score to cantrip damage built-in, it's always a part of a subclass. I think we should respect that. EB is the best damage cantrip in the game even without AB. I see no reason to make it a no brainer.

Same with most of the rest of your suggestions. Just a little tweak helps Warlocks a lot- no need to go overboard. Let's leave the choices there. No auto- extra attack, still costs an Invo. It should! No other full caster gets it except as a dedicated late subclass feature. Invos are basically choose your own feature. Keep the choice meaningful.

Also, I like making Hex Warrior's medium armor/shield prof an invocation. That's personal preference, but it's a huge buff for a caster and should remain in feat/invo territory, not free.

Those things are free because to me, they are central to what Warlocks do. Warlocks blast, that is their primary contribution at most stages of the game, so their blasting option should be better than the other spellcasters' fallback option. Adding Cha per beam is that middle ground.
Extra Attack is central to what someone taking Pact of the Blade wants, gating their ability to do their job behind one of their very limited invocation choices just means every single blade pact warlock looks the same at fifth level - Improved Pact Weapon, Thirsting Blade, and one of Agonizing Blast/Devil's Sight/Eldritch Smite. The other two pact choices don't have "must take" invocations, why should Blade?

That said, I would also be okay leaving Cha off of eldritch blasts, and giving the option at level 5 (or 6) to EITHER add Cha to Eldritch Blast beams, OR get Extra Attack. But I really don't feel that it breaks anything to give Warlocks their most iconic abilities without forcing them to pay for them, and then allow them to adjust their flavor with a small number of very flavorful invocations.

47Ace
2020-03-30, 01:51 PM
Making it all the more necessary to be careful with balancing. They get a heavy crossbow that uses their spellcasting modifier from level 2. They get Fighter extra attack on that heavy crossbow. And they get to cast a 9th level spell at level 17 like every other full caster. When tweaking the class, you have to be careful. Saying it's not a full caster obfuscates the issue and makes finding the balance point more difficult.

Good point, I also think that missing the more fighter like balance point, pretending Eldrich Blast, isn't a fundamental class feature equivalent to weapon proficiency and extra attack far more then any other cantrip in the game and should not be compared to them causes just a much of a problem if not more.