Do illusionist bracers even do what the fluff says?

[Segev]

The fluff, assuming I’ve heard right, is that the inventor made these things to let him cast two minor illusions at once. Hence the name. But the mechanics just say they grant you a bonus action to cast a cantrip a second time if you cast a cantrip in a round. This in no way gets around the limitation minor illusion places on the number of minor illusions you can have active.

Was not having an explicit clause allowing the fluff purpose to be served an oversight, or is it in th ere an I am just misinformed?

[JackPhoenix]

GGtR mechanics are bad, and there are no errata for it. That's about it.

[Segev]

GGtR mechanics are bad, and there are no errata for it. That's about it.

So... the answer is, no, they technically don't, but it's probably an oversight or mistake. I assume it wouldn't be broken to make them do what the creator is reputed to have wanted them for.

Really, they shouldn't be doing what they DO do, and probably should just enable minor illusion to have two instances up simultaneously. Maybe enable casting it as a bonus action as an option.

[MaxWilson]

The fluff, assuming I’ve heard right, is that the inventor made these things to let him cast two minor illusions at once. Hence the name. But the mechanics just say they grant you a bonus action to cast a cantrip a second time if you cast a cantrip in a round. This in no way gets around the limitation minor illusion places on the number of minor illusions you can have active.

Was not having an explicit clause allowing the fluff purpose to be served an oversight, or is it in th ere an I am just misinformed?

Sounds like a just-plain-badly-designed magic item. Illusionists don't even need a magic item to get both sound and image out of Minor Illusion. The bracers should have just given the wearer the same ability.

Illusionist's Bracers (requires attunement): While wearing these bracers, when you cast Minor Illusion, you can create both a sound and an image with a single casting of the spell.

Frankly they sound like an item deliberately misdesigned by a munchkin specifically to sound like they're for boosting illusions while really being specifically designed to double your cantrip damage output.

[googles] Yep, they're for doubling damage output all right, apparently based on a Magic: the Gathering Card which does exactly that. https://shop.tcgplayer.com/magic/gatecrash/illusionists-bracers

[Segev]

Sounds like a just-plain-badly-designed magic item. Illusionists don't even need a magic item to get both sound and image out of Minor Illusion. The bracers should have just given the wearer the same ability.

Illusionist's Bracers (requires attunement): While wearing these bracers, when you cast Minor Illusion, you can create both a sound and an image with a single casting of the spell.

Frankly they sound like an item deliberately misdesigned by a munchkin specifically to sound like they're for boosting illusions while really being specifically designed to double your cantrip damage output.

[googles] Yep, they're for doubling damage output all right, apparently based on a Magic: the Gathering Card which does exactly that. https://shop.tcgplayer.com/magic/gatecrash/illusionists-bracers

See, to me, the purpose of having two minor illusions up at once is to get two images in two different places, not to get image and sound simultaneously. (The Illusionist being able to do so already with one casting is nice, and would stack with the "can have two castings active at once" benefit, too. Two images, and two separate sound sources at once.)

[MaxWilson]

See, to me, the purpose of having two minor illusions up at once is to get two images in two different places, not to get image and sound simultaneously. (The Illusionist being able to do so already with one casting is nice, and would stack with the "can have two castings active at once" benefit, too. Two images, and two separate sound sources at once.)

If that's the purpose then I agree, they need something to get around the "The Illusion also ends if you dismiss it as an action or cast this spell again" clause. Either way, they seem deliberately misdesigned to be munchkiny, not illusiony at all. The Magic: the Gathering Card even says right on it, "It's easy to believe you're a god when you're twice as powerful as everyone else."

[Segev]

If that's the purpose then I agree, they need something to get around the "The Illusion also ends if you dismiss it as an action or cast this spell again" clause. Either way, they seem deliberately misdesigned to be munchkiny, not illusiony at all. The Magic: the Gathering Card even says right on it, "It's easy to believe you're a god when you're twice as powerful as everyone else."

Having played M:tG for about a year (maybe 2) back when I first moved away from college, and getting into it just around the rise of Theros, I suspect the Illusionist Bracer card was fluffed around the notion that your equipped creature conjured an illusory duplicate that actually had all his powers. More or less the equivalent of D&D's simulacrum, but linked a bit more tightly. A mirror image where the singular image mimicked your actual actions, complete with consequences.

Making it about casting a cantrip twice is... eh?

I mean, it's probably not broken to have a rare magic item that makes you able to quicken a cantrip but reduce your options for any other spells that round to the same cantrip.

But the fluff is dumb since it has naught to do with the flavor text of the original card and fails to be reflected in the slightest in the actual mechanics.

[Warlush]

I mean, I wish I was a warlock with a pair of these.

[MaxWilson]

Having played M:tG for about a year (maybe 2) back when I first moved away from college, and getting into it just around the rise of Theros, I suspect the Illusionist Bracer card was fluffed around the notion that your equipped creature conjured an illusory duplicate that actually had all his powers. More or less the equivalent of D&D's simulacrum, but linked a bit more tightly. A mirror image where the singular image mimicked your actual actions, complete with consequences.

Making it about casting a cantrip twice is... eh?

I mean, it's probably not broken to have a rare magic item that makes you able to quicken a cantrip but reduce your options for any other spells that round to the same cantrip.

But the fluff is dumb since it has naught to do with the flavor text of the original card and fails to be reflected in the slightest in the actual mechanics.

I never played MtG but I have played a bit of Dominion, and it's funny to see the strange way mechanics and themes interact with each other. Like Chancellor: +2 gold, "You may immediately put your deck into your discard pile." Like, okay... what does that have to do with a Chancellor?

5E is illogical sometimes but not that illogical. Except for the Illusionist's Bracers.

[Chronos]

You could probably make the bracers non-broken by specifying that it has to be a non-damaging cantrip, like "Whenever you cast a non-damaging cantrip, you can cast an additional non-damaging cantrip as a bonus action" (which, yes, would also open up the possibility of casting, say, a Mage Hand and a Minor Illusion in the same round).

I've long had a suspicion that some things only make it into the books because one of the authors is a munchkin, and wants to sneak overpowered items into their own games, and wants to be able to say to his DM "See, it's in a published book! You have to allow it!". But they have to disguise the brokenness to sneak it past the other authors and editors, so they make up some other use for it that wouldn't necessarily even work.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

I just make them a higher rarety item.

[Misterwhisper]

Just more proof that the actual D&D team does not really check the stuff they didn’t actually write much at all.

Wildemont, planescape, M:tG, etc are made for money and so they don’t really care if it is balanced.

[Segev]

Just more proof that the actual D&D team does not really check the stuff they didn’t actually write much at all.

Wildemont, planescape, M:tG, etc are made for money and so they don’t really care if it is balanced.

This seems unfair. Planescape, if it is even being made for 5e, is not out yet. M:tG is actually something they care greatly about balance for. And being made for money is hardly an indictment. Everything is made for money. It is how you are able to produce more of it.

I know nothing about Wildmount, but I find the accusation equally suspect given the snidely smug nature of the post.

[Daphne]

M:tG is actually something they care greatly about balance for.

Really? The book they gave extra options for casters via backgrounds while martials get nothing? WotC only cares about a semblance of balance when it comes to races and subclasses, everything else is optional content and they don't give a damn.

[Segev]

Really? The book they gave extra options for casters via backgrounds while martials get nothing? WotC only cares about a semblance of balance when it comes to races and subclasses, everything else is optional content and they don't give a damn.

Oh, you meant the M:tG-inspired book in 5e, not M:tG.

I suspect that was more experiment in seeing what works. Are martial characters banned from the backgrounds?

[Keravath]

Having played M:tG for about a year (maybe 2) back when I first moved away from college, and getting into it just around the rise of Theros, I suspect the Illusionist Bracer card was fluffed around the notion that your equipped creature conjured an illusory duplicate that actually had all his powers. More or less the equivalent of D&D's simulacrum, but linked a bit more tightly. A mirror image where the singular image mimicked your actual actions, complete with consequences.

Making it about casting a cantrip twice is... eh?

I mean, it's probably not broken to have a rare magic item that makes you able to quicken a cantrip but reduce your options for any other spells that round to the same cantrip.

But the fluff is dumb since it has naught to do with the flavor text of the original card and fails to be reflected in the slightest in the actual mechanics.

Actually, it is completely broken. It gives any character with these the ability to quicken a cantrip just like a sorcerer could but for the sorcerer it costs 2 sp. It creates an overpowered use of eldritch blast. At level 5 ... casting eldritch blast twice with agonizing blast assuming 18 charisma (throwing in hex just for fun) gives 4 x (d10 + d6 +4) = 52 average damage every turn with the only resource expense being the single spell slot for hex - even without hex this is 4 x (d10 +4) = 38 damage on average ... hand crossbow with xbow expert and sharpshooter might be more damage but the to hit chances are less and that combination requires two feats.

Massively overpowered magic item that has nothing to do with the flavor text. Unfortunately GGtR has several such magic items ... the one allowing the casting of any spell you don't know as well as some of the guild background bonus spell and ability perks are not balanced in the context of the rest of 5e.

[MaxWilson]

Oh, you meant the M:tG-inspired book in 5e, not M:tG.

I suspect that was more experiment in seeing what works. Are martial characters banned from the backgrounds?

The Eberron approach works a lot better. Give up your subrace and get locked into a particular racial choice which is fairly non-synergistic with classes who would want the spell list, typically gaining a handful of spells and a TON of interesting flavor.

E.g. you can get healing spells on a wizard but you have to play a Dex +2 Wis +1 Halfling instead of an Int +1 Con +1 Mobile human, and you still have to "pay" to acquire the spells as usual as your level-up picks.

Warriors have other options to tempt them instead like Temp-HP-every-short-rest Beasthide Shifters.

[Misterwhisper]

This seems unfair. Planescape, if it is even being made for 5e, is not out yet. M:tG is actually something they care greatly about balance for. And being made for money is hardly an indictment. Everything is made for money. It is how you are able to produce more of it.

I know nothing about Wildmount, but I find the accusation equally suspect given the snidely smug nature of the post.

Sorry I meant Planeshift not planescape.

[LudicSavant]

GGtR mechanics are bad, and there are no errata for it. That's about it.

Sadly, this.

[Sigreid]

GGtR mechanics are bad, and there are no errata for it. That's about it.

Well, if he's literally casting the cantrip 2 at once, as in the exact same time then there's no one that went first to be overwritten when you cast the second one.

[JackPhoenix]

Well, if he's literally casting the cantrip 2 at once, as in the exact same time then there's no one that went first to be overwritten when you cast the second one.

He's literally casting one cantrip as an action, and the other as a bonus action in the same turn.

[Segev]

Actually, it is completely broken. It gives any character with these the ability to quicken a cantrip just like a sorcerer could but for the sorcerer it costs 2 sp. It creates an overpowered use of eldritch blast. At level 5 ... casting eldritch blast twice with agonizing blast assuming 18 charisma (throwing in hex just for fun) gives 4 x (d10 + d6 +4) = 52 average damage every turn with the only resource expense being the single spell slot for hex - even without hex this is 4 x (d10 +4) = 38 damage on average ... hand crossbow with xbow expert and sharpshooter might be more damage but the to hit chances are less and that combination requires two feats.

Massively overpowered magic item that has nothing to do with the flavor text. Unfortunately GGtR has several such magic items ... the one allowing the casting of any spell you don't know as well as some of the guild background bonus spell and ability perks are not balanced in the context of the rest of 5e.

It's a magic item that is mimicking a class feature without cost other than atunement and having the magic item. It's only broken if it's undervalued. What rarity should it be? "Legendary" is probably too much, but "very rare" or maybe "rare" probably would cut it. It's somewhere around the value of an at-will first level spell, since it's mimicking a 1 SP cost metamagic at will, but limits you to duplicating one cantrip with both actions rather than casting any two you like, or casting a cantrip as a bonus action and doing a non-casting action.

A Hat of Disguise is one specific first level spell (disguise self) at will. I'd put the (as-written) Illusionist's Bracers either at the same rarity, or one rarity higher, most likely. Two higher at the absolute most.

I forget their rarity as printed right now, as well as the rarity of the Hat.



I also would vastly prefer a version that does what the fluff suggests, and merely permits one caster to have two minor illusions active at once. I don't even care if they have to be cast on two separate rounds! It'd still be pretty amazing and quite unique.

[Amechra]

Oh, you meant the M:tG-inspired book in 5e, not M:tG.

I suspect that was more experiment in seeing what works. Are martial characters banned from the backgrounds?

They aren't, but they don't get a comparable benefit. They're otherwise perfectly normal backgrounds that just so happen to add 10+ spells to a caster's list.

[Segev]

They aren't, but they don't get a comparable benefit. They're otherwise perfectly normal backgrounds that just so happen to add 10+ spells to a caster's list.

Ah. I thought they gave bonus spells, the way things like MAgic Initiate do. Does it matter what caster class you are? Does it give more to bards, warlocks, and especially sorcerers by adding them directly as extra spells known?

[JackPhoenix]

Ah. I thought they gave bonus spells, the way things like MAgic Initiate do. Does it matter what caster class you are? Does it give more to bards, warlocks, and especially sorcerers by adding them directly as extra spells known?

Example of the feature in question. Not listing the spells themselves.
Azorius Guild Spells

Prerequisite: Spellcasting or Pact Magic class feature

For you, the spells on the Azorius Guild Spells table are added to the spell list of your spellcasting class. (If you are a multiclass character with multiple spell lists, these spells are added to all of them.)

You'll get this in addition to all other background goodies (proficiencies, feature, equipment).

[Segev]

Seems like it probably should've at least been a feat, yeah.

[MaxWilson]

It's somewhere around the value of an at-will first level spell, since it's mimicking a 1 SP cost metamagic at will

Quicken Spell costs 2 SP, not 1, so the bracers are worth twice as much as you think.


A Hat of Disguise is one specific first level spell (disguise self) at will. I'd put the (as-written) Illusionist's Bracers either at the same rarity, or one rarity higher, most likely. Two higher at the absolute most.

I forget their rarity as printed right now, as well as the rarity of the Hat.

Hat of Disguise is idempotent, and it's Uncommon. Not sure about the bracers since I don't own Ravnica.

[Lille]

Quicken Spell costs 2 SP, not 1, so the bracers are worth twice as much as you think.

Though Twinned is 1 SP for a cantrip, IIRC. The bracers cost an action and a bonus action, rather than an action for Twinned, but it lets you target a single creature with multiple effects, where Twinned doesn't.

Not to say that they're equal, but they're relatively comparable.

I'd say that the bracers aren't that powerful in general - two cantrips in a turn is pretty good, but not game-breaking. It's just outliers such as EB+AB or GFB/BB that make them significantly more powerful.

[MaxWilson]

Though Twinned is 1 SP for a cantrip, IIRC. The bracers cost an action and a bonus action, rather than an action for Twinned, but it lets you target a single creature with multiple effects, where Twinned doesn't.

Not to say that they're equal, but they're relatively comparable.

But Twinned also doesn't work with high-level Eldritch Blast.

[Lille]

But Twinned also doesn't work with high-level Eldritch Blast.

I'm not saying it does. Again, I'm saying they're comparable, not equal.

And the point I forgot to make in my post, that I edited in after, is that it's only a few spells - EB, GFB, BB - that actually make them broken. And of those spells, two of the three of them aren't functional with Twinned, so a possible way to use the Bracers without them getting broken is just disallowing those three spells.

Though to be fair, I'm not the best judge of balance, so I could be misjudging it anyways. How well would disallowing those three spells work for balancing the bracers, in your opinion?

[Keravath]

I'm not saying it does. Again, I'm saying they're comparable, not equal.

And the point I forgot to make in my post, that I edited in after, is that it's only a few spells - EB, GFB, BB - that actually make them broken. And of those spells, two of the three of them aren't functional with Twinned, so a possible way to use the Bracers without them getting broken is just disallowing those three spells.

Though to be fair, I'm not the best judge of balance, so I could be misjudging it anyways. How well would disallowing those three spells work for balancing the bracers, in your opinion?

Well, no matter what else it does, the bracers double the at will DPS of any casting class. At level 5, they can cast 2 firebolt cantrips for 4d10 damage which isn't normally available until a level 17 caster. Doubled EB+AB is nasty. Doubled Booming blade is also nasty since it effectively gives each caster the Extra attack ability along with the extra d8 damage from booming blade. However, even frostbite, chill touch, or toll the dead (did it work on save cantrips?) ... are also pretty nasty for rider effects that go along with the damage though in these cases you might want to target more than the one creature.

In addition, bonus action casting costs 2 sorcery points and given the capabilities of the item I think comparing to quicken is a much more apt comparison than twin.

[Lille]

Well, no matter what else it does, the bracers double the at will DPS of any casting class. At level 5, they can cast 2 firebolt cantrips for 4d10 damage which isn't normally available until a level 17 caster. Doubled EB+AB is nasty. Doubled Booming blade is also nasty since it effectively gives each caster the Extra attack ability along with the extra d8 damage from booming blade. However, even frostbite, chill touch, or toll the dead (did it work on save cantrips?) ... are also pretty nasty for rider effects that go along with the damage though in these cases you might want to target more than the one creature.

I get that about EB/BB. A big part of my point was that it shouldn't be allowed with EB, GFB, or BB anyways.

I will admit that I wasn't putting much thought into the damage potential of other cantrips. Average firebolt damage if two bolts hit at 5th level is 22 damage, which is better than a martial can do. As it is, though, IIRC the Bracers are Very Rare, meaning that you shouldn't be getting them for a while yet. At least as far as I know? What level are players expected to be getting their hands on Very Rare items?

In terms of riders, I'll admit that two frostbites for free is really powerful. Chill touch isn't bad, but is a bit more niche.

How about this, for a lower-rarity item that does what the fluff says it does:


While wearing these bracers, when you use your action to cast a cantrip that doesn't deal damage, you can use your bonus action to cast that cantrip again. If the cantrip would have a duration other than instantaneous and casting the cantrip again would end the effects, the casting granted by this ability does not count towards that limit.

That solves the damage/riders problem, and lets you use it to have two minor illusions active at once. Does that seem good enough?


In addition, bonus action casting costs 2 sorcery points and given the capabilities of the item I think comparing to quicken is a much more apt comparison than twin.

The point I was trying to make there wasn't that it should be compared to Twin, it was that it can be.

[Luccan]

Given players can't get a hold of these without DM permission (Even using crafting rules I don't think you can make these unless you know how, which is a DM decision), I'm not sure why it's a problem that they're OP. If it would be inappropriate to have them in your game, just don't make them available. It's probably one of the least troubling examples of power creep in the game, given that limitation.