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Quertus
2020-03-29, 09:57 AM
So, I suddenly find myself needing a) the MtG color opposites (I'm pretty sure Order/Chaos and Life/Death are two of the five). --and-- needing animals to represent the various WoD splats (bats for Vampires and wolves for Garou are pretty obvious, but I'm struggling with the rest).

If anyone wants to help me with those, that's awesome, but the *actual* reason I created this thread was because I'm sure that there are lots more interesting stories out there, of spontaneous gaming-related (gaming-induced?) research. And that sounded fun.

So, whatcha got? Fill this thread with humorous stories of the things you found yourself wanting to know, because of a game.

False God
2020-03-29, 12:04 PM
MTG has allied/opposed colours, as a 5 color system, there is no direct opposite. Typically the "ally" colors are the colors immediately adjacent, so for white that would be green and blue. And the "enemy colors" are the remaining two (red and black).

It's not perfect but: https://miro.medium.com/max/3998/1*sQcpHoGupN6w7l9NzthoQg.png
but I think it being a PNG it won't show on here, weird.
There are also 30-colour combos, both of enemy colors (white, green, blue) (https://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=23210&type=card) and enemy colors (white, black, red) (https://i.pinimg.com/236x/55/2d/d2/552dd2b1736b8e81abd135c5d77a041b--the-avengers-magic-the-gathering-cards.jpg), and the cards give you sort of an idea of what those color combos represent.

----
Personally I've done more research on IRL cultures and civilizations than I did throughout my entire schooling and higher education (and I'm a political scientist)! I'm not sure if that's funny persay. I've also done a ridiculous amount of reading on fantasy cultures and lore because of a game.

Quertus
2020-03-29, 01:13 PM
MTG has allied/opposed colours, as a 5 color system, there is no direct opposite. Typically the "ally" colors are the colors immediately adjacent, so for white that would be green and blue. And the "enemy colors" are the remaining two (red and black).

It's not perfect but: https://miro.medium.com/max/3998/1*sQcpHoGupN6w7l9NzthoQg.png
but I think it being a PNG it won't show on here, weird.
There are also 30-colour combos, both of enemy colors (white, green, blue) (https://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=23210&type=card) and enemy colors (white, black, red) (https://i.pinimg.com/236x/55/2d/d2/552dd2b1736b8e81abd135c5d77a041b--the-avengers-magic-the-gathering-cards.jpg), and the cards give you sort of an idea of what those color combos represent.

Ah, sorry. That bit could have been clearer. Let me try again.

So, there are 5 sets of "enemy colors"; at some point, iirc, WotC have a description the colors based on making those enemy colors actually opposites. So, maybe Red-White enmity was defined by an order/chaos dichotomy; maybe Green-Black enmity as a life/death dichotomy. But I'm drawing a blank on what the others might be, and my Google searches aren't helping.

So, each color got 2 "domains", Which were clearly created as opposed pairs. Red would have one anti-white and one anti-blue pillar, Green would have one anti-blue and one anti-black, etc.

----

Personally I've done more research on IRL cultures and civilizations than I did throughout my entire schooling and higher education (and I'm a political scientist)! I'm not sure if that's funny persay. I've also done a ridiculous amount of reading on fantasy cultures and lore because of a game.

Hmmm… I wonder if I've written more code to handle RPGs than I did while in college…

lightningcat
2020-03-29, 01:23 PM
General animals, or MtG card types to represent the WoD splats?

But here are two more pictures describing the consepts behind the colors. Each of the three does thing slightly different, but each is correct in its own way.
https://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/attachments/127/598/635315256418146937.jpg
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/8e/ff/e3/8effe354a465348aa1100d4103fbcbb0--color-wheels-color-theory.jpg
With more descriptive terms, you might find the opposites you are looking for.



Personally I've done more research on IRL cultures and civilizations than I did throughout my entire schooling and higher education (and I'm a political scientist)! I'm not sure if that's funny persay. I've also done a ridiculous amount of reading on fantasy cultures and lore because of a game.

That is fairly common. I do not want to know the amount of research rabbit holes I have gone down for a idea I wanted to use in a game. Or worse, the ones that did't get used at all. I have several research papers saved because I might use something out of them.

Telok
2020-03-29, 03:05 PM
For a Traveller game I once made an acceleration/distance -> time chart for accelerations from... 1 to 18 g, I think, and distances from... 1/4th to 40 au, if I remember correctly. It ended up saving significant time and brain work in game.

For another game I found as many different spellcasting/psycher warp effects form all the warhammer games, collated them into five tables of ascending "you're screwed"-ness and wrote a program to automate the rolls. Because I have a player who can't restrain themselves and being limited to about 20 different effects was getting repetitive.

I have not and should not do a deep dive into medieval alchemy to justify really nasty (and ofter RL) chemical weapons in D&D games for things like making illusions of "a sealed barrel made of X, containing Y" and then turning it real.

DeTess
2020-03-29, 03:20 PM
This article goes a bit more in-depth on the colors and enmities of the MTG color pie: https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/making-magic/pie-fights-2016-11-14

As for my own research induced by gaming, I guess I once wrote a fairly basic program to do some basic patched-conics orbital transfer calculations to get my numbers right for a fairly hard Sci-fi one-shot. Technically that wasn't research I did for a ttrpg as that's also pretty much the subject of my studies, but it was still a fun application XD.

Berenger
2020-03-29, 03:35 PM
needing animals to represent the various WoD splats


Vampire: bat.
Werewolf: wolf.
Mage: owl or raven.
Promethean: a taxidermied pet.
Changeling: butterfly emerging from larva.
Hunter: mongoose (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rikki-Tikki-Tavi) or german shepherd.
Geist: moth, with a skull motif (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death%27s-head_hawkmoth).
Mummy: scarab or jackal.
Demon: horned lizard or thorny devil.

lightningcat
2020-03-29, 07:47 PM
Vampire: bat.
Werewolf: wolf.
Mage: owl or raven.
Promethean: a taxidermied pet.
Changeling: butterfly emerging from larva.
Hunter: mongoose (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rikki-Tikki-Tavi) or german shepherd.
Geist: moth, with a skull motif (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death%27s-head_hawkmoth).
Mummy: scarab or jackal.
Demon: horned lizard or thorny devil.

For Changling, I think you mean "from a cocoon" not "from a larva." Which would absolutely apply to Dreaming, but not so much Lost, maybe faral cats instead. As your list seems to be more Chronicles of Darkness than World of Darkness.
Mongoose would fit Vigil rather well, and German Shepard fits Reckening.
The death head moth fits both Sin Eaters and Wraiths.
I would go with snakes for Demon: the Fallen, or Raccons for Demon: the Descent.

Pauly
2020-03-29, 08:18 PM
Vampire: bat.
Werewolf: wolf.
Mage: owl or raven.
Promethean: a taxidermied pet.
Changeling: butterfly emerging from larva.
Hunter: mongoose (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rikki-Tikki-Tavi) or german shepherd.
Geist: moth, with a skull motif (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death%27s-head_hawkmoth).
Mummy: scarab or jackal.
Demon: horned lizard or thorny devil.

Goats are often associated with demons. The horns, cloven hoofs and tails.
For the changeling, I think a cuckoo may be more fitting.

SunderedWorldDM
2020-03-29, 11:06 PM
I just recently had to look research Woodstock '99 for my Doctor Who RPG campaign, and now I have to look up pirates for my new 5e game. It's not quite as much whiplash as I expected! :smallwink:

Lord Raziere
2020-03-29, 11:16 PM
I once had to look up how black holes decay to counter someone's attack in my DBZ roleplay. it involved a technique to conjure matter, quantum physics involving the fact that subatomic particles randomly appear and disappear, and the character improvising that technique on the fly to create this weird lattice of subatomic particles around the black hole to basically make the decay happen all at once, but it worked.

singularities were not allowed in the roleplay after that.

Rater202
2020-03-30, 12:05 AM
I've spent a lot of time researching stuff on the Naruto wiki in the last month or so because of a game I joined.

Berenger
2020-03-30, 05:34 AM
For Changling, I think you mean "from a cocoon" not "from a larva."
Yes, that's what I meant.



As your list seems to be more Chronicles of Darkness than World of Darkness.
Maybe? I'm not that well versed in White Wolf canon outside of Vampire, Scion and a bit of Werewolf.

EGplay
2020-03-30, 05:54 AM
So, I suddenly find myself needing a) the MtG color opposites (I'm pretty sure Order/Chaos and Life/Death are two of the five).

Red - White - > Chaos - Order
Red - Blue - > Emotion - Logic
Green - Black - > Life - Death
Green - Blue - > Wisdom - Intellect
White - Black - > Good - Evil

Now of course, them being the Mages by the Seaside (as well as reality being too messy), consistency in this is somewhat lacking, and subject to change over time.

As far as research goes, I never looked this much into dinosaurs and related topics then I do now that I have a 3 year old son :-).

Edit: Intuition - Reasoning is probably better for Green - Blue

Cluedrew
2020-03-30, 08:30 AM
So, I suddenly find myself needing a) the MtG color opposites […] but the *actual* reason I created this thread was because I'm sure that there are lots more interesting stories out there, of spontaneous gaming-related (gaming-induced?) research. And that sounded fun.Oddly enough my craziest story about game or fiction related research actually came from a discussion about five colour morality. It was particularly focused on the question is white good and black evil, but people set me a lot of sets of five links. Just reading all the interviews with personifications of the colours, the character bios from different settings and essays on theme took me a full day. And then I posted my results which is basically all five colours are evil if you don't temper them with the others.

This picture I feel sums up the feel very well although I take issue with some of the labels, particularly black's which I feel has some real value judgement in its wording. I think what each colour wants (order, knowledge, power, freedom or harmony) is a better one line description. Of course the full description is notable longer than that.

https://miro.medium.com/max/3998/1*sQcpHoGupN6w7l9NzthoQg.png

DeTess
2020-03-30, 10:03 AM
Green - Black - > Life - Death
White - Black - > Good - Evil


I don't quite agree with these two. Green is very much about the natural world, and death is part of that. Green however is also very much about 'knowing your place' in the grand scheme of things, while black is very much about doing whatever you feel is best for yourself, including breaking free of whatever expectations your 'role' places on you. The green-black conflict is more about 'sticking to traditions' vs 'forging your own path'.

The same goes for the conflict between white and black. White is not the color of 'good'. White is the color of community and putting the good of the many before the few. This can be a good thing if its presented as the few willingly making sacrifices to save the many, but it is a very bad thing if its the many demanding sacrifices of the few, especially if the few are a minority of some sort. Black, meanwhile, is the color of valuing what is good for you over what is good for everyone. This can be an evil thing, but it doesn't have to be. So to summarize, the black-white conflict is the conflict of selfishness vs. selflessness.

EGplay
2020-03-30, 11:32 AM
The same goes for the conflict between white and black. White is not the color of 'good'. White is the color of community and putting the good of the many before the few.
That would be Whites' Order vs Reds' Chaos. The part of White that opposes Black aspires, or at least pretends, to be the 'good' to Blacks' 'Evil'.
That being said, I agree Selfless - Selfish works better.

As to Green vs Black: way back in the day Green was (mostly) about putting energy into the system and Black (mostly) about taking it out, hence my antiquated dichtonomy.
Revision is in order though, how about Natural - Artifice?

Cluedrew
2020-03-30, 07:39 PM
That being said, I agree Selfless - Selfish works better.Isn't that just good vs. evil by another name?

Either way I think a better way to look at it is more collectivism vs. individualism if you really want to strip out the moral implications. Which I think a lot of people making the cards actually don't, black isn't supposed to be evil but black decks seem to have more evil stuff in them. But a good black character would still probably try to save the world themselves (and might go to great ugly lengths to do so) as opposed to rallying support.


Revision is in order though, how about Natural - Artifice?The diagram had nature vs. nurture. I like that one, there are a couple labels I don't like but that one is pretty good. I'm not sure why that scale is called truth-seeking, identity sounds like the difference.

Lord Raziere
2020-03-30, 07:56 PM
Isn't that just good vs. evil by another name?


I mean I wouldn't say so, people think they are being selfless while inflicting suffering on others all the time, call it what you want, there are desires that aren't for personal gain that can be bad. while tons of good people just want to get a paycheck so they can eat and go home. I mean you can make the argument of like that its selfish to be a control freak about the world because its thinking only you know whats right and selfless, but thats kind of a stretch to me, seems like its just avoiding acknowledging that the concept of selflessness is not free from flaw or misuse.

Edit: but then again, to assume Black Mana sees anything in terms of "good" or "evil" or other simple dichotomies in general is ascribe way too much White traits to it. its more accurate to say White cares more about changing the world around it, and black cares more about changing themselves. White sees the world as something to be worked so that everyone benefits and thus creates various systems to sort this and that into easily defined categories for its purposes, Black sees it as environment to survive in and come out on top and rather instead of seeing the world in black and white or figuring out some similar method of sorting, they simply embrace the fact that life is full of greys and uncertainties and that their own viewpoint is as subjective as everyone elses. they don't see their actions as evil or good, because one can ask the question if anyone is really evil or good in a complex reality full of factors and uncertainty where your unfairly shoved into it by circumstances beyond your control in an environment you didn't choose, where much of society is arbitrary or hypocritical, so if the entire world is hypocritical, inconsistent, unclear, with morality being so hard to figure out, the circumstances so designed to benefit only a few, with such ideas like "selflessness" or "good" bandied about with few ever actually achieving what people think those are, and its uncertain whether you yourself can ever be truly good or evil in your actions.....

well why should Black Mana even bother considering White's ideas? world's unfair, thats just the way it is, and to try and simplify it or make it fair is a fools errand to black mana. far more logical to figure out how to make the world's unfairness work for you so that you can at least be happy amid everything else being unfair. the obsession over whether Black is "evil" or not, is a White mana problem. To Black Mana, White Mana is getting worked up over stupid nonsense when there is a real world here that doesn't care about morality or order except as deceptions to benefit the powerful and corrupt, and sees no reason why they shouldn't kill the powerful and corrupt and take that power for themselves, White says there is no difference between the guy and the previous ones in power, Black counters that the difference is that "its ME thats powerful and probably corrupt rather than the previous guys when I used to be less powerful and less happy, so it makes a big difference to me. now I have all the money/power/whatever to do what I want, and if someone else wants to get their time in the sun, they can get it over my dead corpse just like I did over theirs"

is that evil from a white mana perspective? probably. but Black Mana represents a viewpoint that thinks the whole concept of simple dichotomies one can use to sort people into "good/bad" is nonsense and that life is more difficult than that, and that thus, good/evil doesn't mean anything.

lightningcat
2020-03-31, 12:56 AM
Black/White --- Teamwork/Betrayal
--- Community/Criminality

Satinavian
2020-03-31, 05:02 AM
Isn't that just good vs. evil by another name?

Either way I think a better way to look at it is more collectivism vs. individualism if you really want to strip out the moral implications. Which I think a lot of people making the cards actually don't, black isn't supposed to be evil but black decks seem to have more evil stuff in them. But a good black character would still probably try to save the world themselves (and might go to great ugly lengths to do so) as opposed to rallying support.

The diagram had nature vs. nurture. I like that one, there are a couple labels I don't like but that one is pretty good. I'm not sure why that scale is called truth-seeking, identity sounds like the difference.
They explicitely stated that they don't want Black to be evil. But other markers often used for Black like ambition or decay have not exactly nice connotations either so the popular perception is still a pretty evil ones. And linking creature types like demoms nearly exclusively to black does not help either.

But yes, collectivism vs. indivudualism is probably way closer to what they actually want.

EGplay
2020-03-31, 06:07 AM
Isn't that just good vs. evil by another name?

Either way I think a better way to look at it is more collectivism vs. individualism if you really want to strip out the moral implications. Which I think a lot of people making the cards actually don't, black isn't supposed to be evil but black decks seem to have more evil stuff in them. But a good black character would still probably try to save the world themselves (and might go to great ugly lengths to do so) as opposed to rallying support.
Could be, I haven't seen anything recent so I couldn't tell whether White is more about selflessness or community. They always presented it as selflessness though.


The diagram had nature vs. nurture. I like that one, there are a couple labels I don't like but that one is pretty good.
I don't know, nurture seems... odd for Black to me. The aspects of nurture that could apply (purposely effecting certain results) are also a form of artifice, and that word doesn't come with... ill-fitting? connotations.


But more importantly, how would I have known how cool dunkleosteus and hatzegopteryx were if I hadn't stumbled onto them researching answers to a 3jr olds' questions about dinosaurs? ('tops' is his favorite :-))

Cluedrew
2020-03-31, 07:40 AM
I mean I wouldn't say so, people think they are being selfless while inflicting suffering on others all the time, call it what you want, there are desires that aren't for personal gain that can be bad.Yes but desires that are for other people have a much harder time of being evil (still can be is they don't work intended of its for the sake of a different small group). And pure selfishness is evil the moment it is relevant. Looking after yourself is fine, but looking after yourself at the expense of everything else is almost the hallmark of a villain. As are things like denying good and evil exist.

So basically although I agree with you that the philosophy of black isn't evil I think your explanation about why it isn't let some pieces of a black villain's justification creep in. A good (morally, not pure) black's response to unfairness is not to take advantage of it but instead (as an example, there are other options) to equip people for it. The pragmatic instructor to blue's academic.

And that is as deep as I can go in the time I have available.

To Satinavian: Sounds right, as much as the deeper philosophies are all supposed to be equal I think they wanted a villain faction.


I don't know, nurture seems... odd for Black to me. The aspects of nurture that could apply (purposely effecting certain results) are also a form of artifice, and that word doesn't come with... ill-fitting? connotations.Woops! I thought we were talking about green-blue. The diagram I was referring to has preservation vs. exploitation there. That also has a kind of value judgement to it, but black definitely has a "nothing is sacred" aspect to it.

Quertus
2020-03-31, 12:13 PM
Wow. OK, let me try to catch up.

First off, thanks for all the stories. They've definitely been fun to read (and given me a few ideas). Keep em coming!

-----

General animals to resent WoD spats is what I was looking for, @lightningcat. But feel free to give us all a laugh if you've got humorous alternate answers. So far, we have…

Vampire: bat.
Werewolf: wolf.
Mage: owl or raven.
Promethean: a taxidermied pet.
Changeling: butterfly emerging from cocoon, Feral cats.
Hunter: mongoose or german shepherd.
Geist (is this Wraith?): moth, with a skull motif.
Mummy: scarab or jackal.
Demon: horned lizard, thorny devil, snake, raccoon, goat

I… had completely forgotten about Promethean. :smallredface: But the taxidermy idea made me laugh. :smallbiggrin:

-----

For MtG, we've got…

Red - White - >

Chaos - Order

Red - Blue - >

Emotion - Logic

Green - Black - >

Life - Death
'sticking to traditions' vs 'forging your own path'.
Giving - Taking
Green - Blue - >

Wisdom - Intellect
Intuition - Reasoning
Fate/Destiny - self-determination
Nature - Nurture
White - Black - >

Good - Evil
selfishness vs. selflessness
collectivism vs. indivudualism

If I remember correctly, the color opposition chart / definition / whatever I'm remembering came out before 3e, so… in the '90s? As you can tell from my expectation of "Life - Death", my expectations are a bit out of date.

-----

Sorry if I missed something from either list - I was skimming quickly to find things after reading the thread, and it feels like I missed some things.

EGplay
2020-03-31, 03:01 PM
What you also could do is have the combination of the opposing colours be that colours' antithesis.

Green for instance would not so much oppose either Black or Blue, but a Blue/Black amalgam for siphoning energy into wholly independent systems. So Nature vs Technology?

Is al lot and messy work to do for all five, though.

RazorChain
2020-03-31, 10:26 PM
MTG has allied/opposed colours, as a 5 color system, there is no direct opposite. Typically the "ally" colors are the colors immediately adjacent, so for white that would be green and blue. And the "enemy colors" are the remaining two (red and black).

It's not perfect but: https://miro.medium.com/max/3998/1*sQcpHoGupN6w7l9NzthoQg.png
but I think it being a PNG it won't show on here, weird.
There are also 30-colour combos, both of enemy colors (white, green, blue) (https://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=23210&type=card) and enemy colors (white, black, red) (https://i.pinimg.com/236x/55/2d/d2/552dd2b1736b8e81abd135c5d77a041b--the-avengers-magic-the-gathering-cards.jpg), and the cards give you sort of an idea of what those color combos represent.

----
Personally I've done more research on IRL cultures and civilizations than I did throughout my entire schooling and higher education (and I'm a political scientist)! I'm not sure if that's funny persay. I've also done a ridiculous amount of reading on fantasy cultures and lore because of a game.

That just looks like the Chinese 5 elements system or Wuxing. Like Metal destroys Wood, Wood destroys Earth, Earth destroys Water, Water destroys Fire and Fire destroys Metal

lightningcat
2020-03-31, 10:41 PM
Blue is often represtative of technology in MtG. So blue=tech vs green=nature is a common oppositional pairing in the game.
Black=Corruption vs white=Purity is another common one.
Red=violence vs white=pacifism

Geist is the CoD counterpart to Wraith, and they have some similarities, but more differences. Wraiths are ghosts, sometimes they may get back into the world of the living for Crow-like revenge rampages, but normally they stick to the underworld.
Sineaters are people that died, and then made a deal with a Geist (a ghost/spirit/thing) to be not dead, but the Geist is now with them.

Devils_Advocate
2020-04-01, 06:27 PM
I found an article on the conflicts between the Colors (https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/making-magic/pie-fights-2016-11-14).


White vs. Black is "moral vs. immoral" in the sense of moralistic vs. amoral, which is not necessarily the same as good behavior vs. bad behavior. Black gets the stereotypical "evil" stuff like demons and undead because Black doesn't worry about whether the means to its ends are "ethical". But that's an "evil is Black" thing more than a "Black is evil" thing, if you see the distinction.

(When Authority comes calling, does Black defiantly resist restrictions on its actions, even to the detriment of its power (like Red)? Or does Black instead embrace the cold pragmatism of long-term planning (like Blue)? I think that the main answer is that pure Black prefers not to pre-commit to either of those approaches. It's Always Nice To Keep Your Options OpenTM.)

In practice, a "good vs. evil" conflict between White and Black, in nearly any sense of "good" and "evil", will probably see White on the good side and Black on the evil side. Black, being amoral, doesn't do things because they're "right". But sometimes the self-serving option is, by coincidence, globally better than the "virtuous" one.


White vs. Red is "order vs. chaos" in the political, "security vs. freedom" sense, i.e. authoritarian vs. libertarian (at the extremes, fascist vs. anarchist).


Blue vs. Red can be spun as reason vs. emotion, but, well... that's a classic false dichotomy. There's no inherent conflict there. But then that's probably true of a lot of "philosophical conflicts" when it comes down to it.

I am the left brain, I am the left brain
I work really hard 'til my inevitable death brain
You got a job to do, you better do it right
And the right way is with the left brain's might

I think that where they really oppose each other is planning vs. impulse (delayed response vs. immediate response).


Green vs. Blue is of course natural vs. artificial and also harmony vs. discipline (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HarmonyVersusDiscipline).


I guess that Green vs. Black is accepting vs. changing: letting the state of the world determine your behavior vs. trying to have your behavior determine what the world is like.

"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man."
― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

Lord Raziere
2020-04-01, 06:42 PM
They explicitely stated that they don't want Black to be evil. But other markers often used for Black like ambition or decay have not exactly nice connotations either so the popular perception is still a pretty evil ones. And linking creature types like demons nearly exclusively to black does not help either.

But yes, collectivism vs. indivudualism is probably way closer to what they actually want.

I wouldn't say ambition is negative technically. a hero needs power to fight evil as much as the villain needs power to do it, and saving the world is just as an ambitious goal as conquering it. many character grow in power as a result of their quest and some even set out to get stronger for their goals. not everyone is lucky as say, Superman getting their power handed to them by birthright without any effort on their own part.

as for decay, that depends on what decay is happening to. decay happening to people who are evil? is good for you, that means they are less strong and cannot do evil as well.

while demons come from the word daemon, which are just lesser spirits rather than inherently evil connotations the word has today.

also I imagine a black mana person would argue strongly for subjective morality and point to how cultural perceptions of evil shift over time, vary by place to place, and that when you really think about it, culture in general is nonsense based on random historic agglomeration, so really why care about culture says about "evil" or "good" anyways? its all just elaborate nonsense to keep people from rocking the boat, so as long as you don't do that, you don't have to care.

its just that....when you be an individual over the collective, that gets demonized. To white mana you either fit in or you stick out, and sticking out is bad. so all the things that stick out get sorted into one category, in a sort of anti-collective White Mana likes to make to blame for white mana's problems. so the most extreme individuals get lumped in with the less extreme ones.

of course, magic the gathering has the unfortunate tendency to use the most extreme versions of all their colors in near cartoonish ways without any moderation to maintain a certain identity, so.....unfortunately, we're not going to get a moderate black mana hero any time soon, or a red mana hero who doesn't rage/blow up at everything.

Devils_Advocate
2020-04-05, 09:48 PM
I found a link (https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/hate-enough-2002-02-19) to an older article that's more succinct and gives three bullet points per pairing.

Yaktan
2020-04-05, 10:16 PM
Speaking of Black heroes though, I got back into Magic with Dominaria. The bits of the Dominaria story from Liliana's viewpoint were really great. They did a really good job of showing her as very representative of black in ideology--and still she is working to help the team. It is really great with the internal monologue she has in response to everything Gideon does--he is a sterotypical white hero who helps just to be helpful, and she cannon understand why he is acting that way.

OldTrees1
2020-04-06, 01:39 AM
White vs Black is Moral Objectivism vs Moral Error Theory.

White: Is it not our moral duty to establish a strong code of conduct?
White believes there is a yes/no answer to this question.
Black: Your question is false. Moral duty does not exist. Go away.
Black believes the question is based on a deluded premise.

This is why plenty of evil villains could be described as White.
White Villian: I am in the right. You are sinful and must be exterminated!
Black Villian: Good and Evil are illusions. There is nothing wrong with what I am doing.

White Hero: I am in the right. You are evil and must be stopped!
Black Hero: Good and Evil are illusions. Stop imposing your delusion on me (and everyone else).


Opinion: Of course Black is wrong, but most White are wrong too. Morality is a tough question.

Cluedrew
2020-04-07, 07:17 PM
Opinion: Of course Black is wrong, but most White are wrong too. Morality is a tough question.Yeah the more I read about this the more I remember why I came up with my slightly altered five-colour morality system. I think I am going to go back through that.

So the standard morality view at this is that all five colours are morally natural in that they support both heroes, villains and people in the middle. I don't think that works. I have seen people try and fail again and again to explain how you have black heroes who don't care for good or evil and in fact only care for themselves. And as I dug into the others I started realizing they had some real problems as well. My final conclusion is mono-colour is evil and multi-colour is good.

Take white for example; quoted as being "peace through order" earlier (I think it was one of the links), supposed to be about creating a system of law for the good of many. But can you construct a good system that does not concern itself with: improving the system (blue), accepting variations (green), giving people freedom within the system (red) or any power over the system (black). I think any such system is doomed to be a twisted monstrosity.

Every colour must be tempered with bits and pieces of the others if it wants to be good. By itself it representing an unhealthy extreme. Last time I did this I matched each colour to a dystopia, the horrible end (nation) state for those who follow a colour too far. Appropriately enough utopia doesn't actually have a place on this chart, other than being some mix of the five colours.

Oh and colourless might be the truly ethically neutral one as that is mostly inanimate objects. Is that actually a trend? Most of the colourless cards I have seen/remember seemed to be artifacts with no real decision making abilities.

Yaktan
2020-04-07, 08:16 PM
Colorless is mostly artifacts, but you also have the Eldrazi, some of which are not just colorless, but aggressively so, such they they need specifically non-colored mana. Though, they do sort of still fit, since they are not evil, so much as weird, Lovecraftian monstrosities.

OldTrees1
2020-04-08, 01:23 AM
Yeah the more I read about this the more I remember why I came up with my slightly altered five-colour morality system. I think I am going to go back through that.

Oh and colourless might be the truly ethically neutral one as that is mostly inanimate objects. Is that actually a trend? Most of the colourless cards I have seen/remember seemed to be artifacts with no real decision making abilities.

I would not call it a 5 color morality system. Only White - Black touches on morality (and indirectly at that). Green has ideas about how it wants to live its life, but it is orthogonal to their views on moral philosophy. Those that lean White might find such a separation to be an alien concept. I sure did.

There is a trend for colorless cards to not have a strong tie to any of the color philosophies. Multicolored cards tend to have strong ties to multiple (color philosophies) and to (multiple color) philosophies.

Lord Raziere
2020-04-08, 02:12 AM
I would not call it a 5 color morality system. Only White - Black touches on morality (and indirectly at that). Green has ideas about how it wants to live its life, but it is orthogonal to their views on moral philosophy. Alien though that concept might be to those that lean White.


indeed, I'd hardly call the 5 colors representing morality. they represent philosophies and archetypes of thought. arguably a villain who thinks of themselves as evil and does evil things is just as white leaning as someone who leans good, as they think an objective morality system applies to them and that its their proper place to be evil as that morality system defines it. it matters less that they're moral or immoral as long they have a clear place within the system of morality that provides stability and certainty to the world to their viewpoint.

meanwhile one Black Mana person does something bad to the world around them, another black mana person personally decides they don't like it and tries to stop it, both acknowledge that morality doesn't exist, but they have personal opinions about whats being done and are unwilling to back down, not really caring if they're doing is bad or not, but liking what the other is doing either.

while red, blue and green are all entirely orthogonal. knowledge can be used for bad or good, and emotions can drive people to great acts of compassion and cruelty in equal measure. While Green just does what they naturally want to do, and mother nature has both many wonders and horrors as a result. these colors don't really care, because what matters to Blue is that knowledge is gathered, that your careful and that you have a plan about what you do, Red only cares that you feel, that you live life to the fullest and seize the moment and possibly the day. Green is just being natural and living without interfering with the world around you, instead of trying to change, dominate, modify or fix the world you just live in it and be at peace with how it works- which has nothing to do with morality since the world can be very cruel at times and black and blue have good points about not always accepting your lot in life.

like lets talk about green and black for a moment: sure green has points about black being disruptive and selfish, but black? black has a point in that green is the one who allows diseases to exist, who allows that predator and prey cycle to be a thing, who just lets everything fall where it may no matter how bad it is. so when black goes "I'm looking out for numero uno" they're doing the sane sensible thing in response to a cruel natural world and all the green villains who'd want him to just accept their bad lot in life by dying to some predator. something that white would probably agree with, since White despite being allied with Green.....is civilization, and civilization and nature don't always see eye to eye. which of course lasts until some black mana villain ceo starts rolling in with their mega-corp to exploit the environment and white mana has to start regulating that.

thing is, the color philosophies...none of them are wrong exactly, its just that they have specific contexts in which they apply better to than others. and applying them outside the context which they're meant for can lead to bad results. its just that black mana has the most obvious ways of misapplication. of course, I personally wonder what a world without black mana but with all other four colors would be like, how much would be screwed up in its absence.

Cluedrew
2020-04-09, 05:19 PM
I thought I already made this post, must of forgotten to.


I would not call it a 5 color morality system.Right, I was trying to say "the five colour personality system/the five colour philosophies as they relate to morality". Its usually not presented that way I find it would out a lot better when I consider it from that angle.

On Colourless: I have nothing to add, but thanks for telling me.

OldTrees1
2020-04-09, 11:51 PM
I thought I already made this post, must of forgotten to.

Right, I was trying to say "the five colour personality system/the five colour philosophies as they relate to morality". Its usually not presented that way I find it would out a lot better when I consider it from that angle.

On Colourless: I have nothing to add, but thanks for telling me.

But that was precisely what I was disagreeing with. Green, Blue, and Red make no comment at all with regards to ethics (aka moral theories), meta ethics (aka theories about moral theories), or even to the history of comments about meta ethics*. There is nothing there that relates to morality.

*Actually Blue might comment on the history but only because it likes knowledge. Red might also yell at White for trying to force this framing device.

White: There are objective moral facts. Things can be moral or immoral.
(White also makes claims that are not related to morality)
Black: No, things cannot be moral, immoral, nor both. Questions about morality are erroneous.
(Black also makes claims that are not related to morality)
Green, Blue, Red, Colorless, and Purple (official unofficial joke 6th color): Um, no comment. We are busy talking about other things. Not everything is about morality you two.

Honestly some of the colors having life philosophies that did not relate to morality was something that I struggled to grasp and then presumed unrealistic for several years. I thought everyone's life philosophies must be rooted in morality in some way. To not do so was (and sometimes still is) alien to me.

Cluedrew
2020-04-10, 07:01 AM
To OldTrees1: Still working on the details but it is roughly: If they (the colours) don't feel there way of life is "good", why live that way over any other way? But it is also if white says everything is moral and black says nothing is shouldn't the others say some things are moral. Still working on the details.

Quertus
2020-04-10, 07:30 AM
What is the morality of a hurricane? Of the lion that eats the gazelle?

Cluedrew
2020-04-10, 08:32 AM
A hurricane may cause more harm than good but it doesn't make decisions. A hunting lion does make decisions but it isn't (I think) intelligent enough to consider implications and put together a philosophy. I suppose we could try to measure their decisions by there ability to make and understand them (none and very little respectively) but we would have no way to communicate the results of that back to them, no way to effect their decisions and so the whole conversation would be rather pointless.

Perhaps this is an oddly pragmatic view of morality. But as much as I get into deep philosophical discussions I also like to accomplish things. And describing a hurricane as good or evil doesn't accomplish much of anything.

Rater202
2020-04-10, 08:36 AM
...I can't help but be amused that the OP said that this was not a thread for his weird research thing but for sharing our own weird research things but almost every post has been about OPs weird research thing.

Rockphed
2020-04-10, 08:55 AM
Red might also yell at White for trying to force this framing device.

So the "Did you just assume my gender" chick* is red? That makes a surprising amount of sense to me.

*yes, I just assumed her* gender. As a red barbarian, I don't give 2 shakes about how other people see the world.

OldTrees1
2020-04-10, 10:07 AM
To OldTrees1: Still working on the details but it is roughly: If they (the colours) don't feel there way of life is "good", why live that way over any other way? But it is also if white says everything is moral and black says nothing is shouldn't the others say some things are moral. Still working on the details.

"How will I live?" is a question often answered by "How ought one live?" (aka morality) but they are not the same.

"How ought one live?" is a question all White answer with some claim of moral fact and all Black reject the question as erroneous. Since Black reject the question they must have some other way of answering "How will I live?".

The other colors are not so unified in their answers to "How ought one live?". A random Green would have a random meta ethical position (including not knowing what meta ethical positions are). So the color Green does not make any comment related to morality, despite having a common answer to "How will I live?".

Another thing to cover briefly, just because 2 colors have a debate about a topic, does not mean the other colors have positions or commentary about that topic.

In summary: The color philosophies are rather broad and do not cover the exact same issues as each other. These relationships between the colors (adjacent and opposed) are something shared by the colors in question, not by colors in general.



So the "Did you just assume my gender" chick* is red? That makes a surprising amount of sense to me.

*yes, I just assumed her* gender. As a red barbarian, I don't give 2 shakes about how other people see the world.

Could be, but I assume there are plenty of Blue ones too. Emotional reaction bucking against an artificially imposed order vs Instructive lecture against the irrational order.

Although I should also comment that people tend to fit many places. I have already described my White leanings in my difficulties seeing outside the Morality framework. However all this academic talk reveals some Blue. (other leanings may or may not exist).

Willie the Duck
2020-04-10, 11:53 AM
...I can't help but be amused that the OP said that this was not a thread for his weird research thing but for sharing our own weird research things but almost every post has been about OPs weird research thing.

Alright, let's give it a go.
In the heyday of GURPS 3e there was a movement in the Steve Jackson community towards hard sci fi that I went all in on. Taking that, we tried to update GURPS: Vehicles to encompass all that could be IRL (with of course some hand-waviness for things we know can exist, but not how well or at what mass/volume/power requirements). During that era, I researched things like the specific impulse of hydrazine (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrazine#Rocket_fuel) rockets, probable fuel consumption of both nuclear-powered ion drives and vasimr (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variable_Specific_Impulse_Magnetoplasma_Rocket) rocket engine (in both low- and high- thrust modes), Project Orion (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Orion_(nuclear_propulsion)), how dense an interstellar medium would have to be (and how efficient regular-hydrogen-based fusion (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CNO_cycle) would have to become) to make Bussard Ramjets (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bussard_ramjet) be a feasible method of interstellar transit. That all was for spaceships and the like, but I also looked into expanding the vehicle rules for oddball locomotion, power systems, and related accessories like Flettner rotors (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flettner_rotor), Stirling (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stirling_engine)engines, and supercavitating (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supercavitation) hulls.

So I've long since divested myself of interest in games which have that level of granularity. But I have more recently done a lot with cultural research, or researching how technology effects culture and the like. For a fantasy game, I wanted it to be late bronze/early iron age. That lead me to all sorts of things like the Bronze Age collapse (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late_Bronze_Age_collapse), bloomed (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloomery)steel, and the various ways steel carbon is managed.

Quertus
2020-04-10, 02:44 PM
...I can't help but be amused that the OP said that this was not a thread for his weird research thing but for sharing our own weird research things but almost every post has been about OPs weird research thing.

The OP is amused by this, as well :smallbiggrin:

Really, I didn't think that my "research thing" would merit much discussion, but was (and still am) interested to hear what cool and crazy stuff y'all have gotten up to. I thought it would be a fun bit of fluff. Instead, Playgrounders have shown their usual helpful spirit, and contributed to understanding on both projects I mentioned. In these dark times, our Playground… remains… strong.

Reminds me just how much I love the Playground. :smallbiggrin:

Alcore
2020-04-10, 07:20 PM
Was preping a d20 modern game using the Apocalypse book.


I had decided the world ended the nuclear way and i wanted to know the effects. The game was going to start one year after. The book gave some useful blast zones for a variety of nukes (which were rounded but accurate enough) and so i hit up wiki and youtube...


I found out that unless the rinky dink town near me is worthy of a nuclear missile that i will 100% survive any nuclear war that happens; unless state of the art missiles are used that can just barely reach me (which the book doesn't cover as these better bombs are fifteen years ahead of the book but YouTube knows).


According to a study some twenty years ago if the two smallest nuclear powers went to war with one another and unloaded all their missiles it would cause a nuclear winter. How cold is cold? Sixty degrees cold (already converted to fahrenheit). In 2018 the highest temp was 96 and the coldest was -6. Which means in 2018 (one year after the bombs fell) our wonderful heroes will be braving 36 degree weather in the summer and dying in -66 degree winters. (Edit: all in my area)

Ain't life grand?


I haven't researched what the sky is supposed to look like but i am sure the temperature drop is from crap stuck into the sky (the study concluded it was to last at least 10 years before getting back to a semblance of normal. Each game year add 6 degrees) so i am pretty sure flashlights will be the most desired item after winter gear.


I also found out that the fallout doesn't travel as far as you think. 99% of it stays in the blast area. And most of the dangerous lethal radiation happens in the first few hours. Though for long life expectancy you are encouraged to remain in your bunker for at least a year (unless nuclear winter).


Last winter (which won't go away) my water pipes froze up. Found out it wasn't properly insulated and i needed more. Now my well has a rough R18-19 with standard houses only containing R10 to 19. Which means my well is likely better insulated than my house. What does the R stand for? Resistance; with R10 insulation a house in 10 degrees warmer than the outside.


Which means i don't need a nuclear bunker; i need an Antarctica rated habitat.


Oh and 99% of plantlife will not survive the nuclear winter. Unless there is a functioning government somewhere 99.99% (or more) of humanity will starve in a year or two if they don't freeze. I don't know about other countries but American doesn't have community bunkers ready.

Cluedrew
2020-04-10, 07:30 PM
...I can't help but be amused that the OP said that this was not a thread for his weird research thing but for sharing our own weird research things but almost every post has been about OPs weird research thing.Its not quite the original topic mentioned, and I think it came by way of one of the other stories anyways.

I suppose the other craziest role-playing research I ever did was researching a bunch of other entire systems when I was working on my own system. That was spread over several months though.


"How will I live?" is a question often answered by "How ought one live?" (aka morality) but they are not the same.But in answering "How will I live" you will have to come up with solution to a moral question eventually. Your philosophy, the collection of your fundamental beliefs, will effect what you do in that situation. So even though they aren't the same question they will effect each other.

OldTrees1
2020-04-10, 09:44 PM
But in answering "How will I live" you will have to come up with solution to a moral question eventually. Your philosophy, the collection of your fundamental beliefs, will effect what you do in that situation. So even though they aren't the same question they will effect each other.

I do not follow.

Moral/Immoral choices
If I presume reality has an objective morality I can agree that moral agents have the potential for making choices of moral weight, but MtG does not presume reality has an objective morality. White presumes an objective morality and Black presumes an amoral reality, but those are fallible positions rather than statements of fact. So I cannot conclude a character will make a choice of moral weight.

Moral beliefs
Or are you talking about beliefs about morality? It is possible to make choices using only personal preferences ("I want Y") and "How should I X in order to best fulfill Y?" questions. Forming a belief that "One ought to Z" is not guaranteed even in a long lifespan.

Furthermore
A color is not a person. A person might have moral beliefs and a color identity, but I would not be able to predict the moral beliefs from the color identity. With White and Black I can only predict a single metaethical belief. The colors are not another morality chart like the D&D alignments. It is closer to a personality / perspective quiz / chart.

lightningcat
2020-04-11, 01:14 AM
I found out that unless the rinky dink town near me is worthy of a nuclear missile that i will 100% survive any nuclear war that happens; unless state of the art missiles are used that can just barely reach me (which the book doesn't cover as these better bombs are fifteen years ahead of the book but YouTube knows).

Not researched for a game, but the rinky dink town I grew up around (population 10k) was on the second strike list during the cold war, due to the large power plant it has. Although it is much more likely to be destroyed by the supervolcano under Yellowstone blowing up nowdays.

Finding out how many steps you are away for nuclear destruction can be oddly liberating. Or cause existential dread. Whatever.

Alcore
2020-04-11, 05:17 AM
Not researched for a game, but the rinky dink town I grew up around (population 10k) was on the second strike list during the cold war, due to the large power plant it has. Although it is much more likely to be destroyed by the supervolcano under Yellowstone blowing up nowdays.

Finding out how many steps you are away for nuclear destruction can be oddly liberating. Or cause existential dread. Whatever.
Mine does not even reach 3,000 ... but i am not sure where my power comes from. Perhaps I should research that too. For the game of course (the present one has them dying even in the summer)

Silly Name
2020-04-11, 09:19 AM
So, my current pet project is a Sword and Sandals-type setting intended for play with D&D 5e (totally had that idea before Odyssey of the Dragonlords), and I have gone down really deep holes while doing research on Ancient cultures for inspiration for this world.

While researching warfare for ideas on equipment and tactics, I came about the topic of warhorses.

Did you know that as long as horses have been used in warfare, various populations and armies had preferences for the genders of their warhorses? Turns out some people preferred the more silent, calm nature of mares and gelds, while others really liked the aggressive inclination of stallions. And those preferences switched with time, so I have been reading on this stuff for a day, wondering if such a detail is even worth keeping track of. (Spoiler: it's not!)

But I also started looking in the evolutionary history of horses (and camels!), because I thought to myself "hey, wouldn't it be fun if instead of boring old horses, at least some people had weirder, earlier animals?"

Cluedrew
2020-04-11, 07:31 PM
To OldTrees1: Yes colours are not people, but the colours represent a lot of people and we can talk about trends in them. And really it kind of doesn't matter what objective/cosmic good and evil might exist in the worlds of Magic: The Gathering because this is basically us (or just me) trying to rate the colours (and various ideas one could take from them) for "moral value". And by themselves, I don't think any of the colours has a lot.