Anyone played a Mastermind Rogue? How'd it go?

[Mr Adventurer]

I'm always intrigued by features that are about working better with your allies than alone. What are your experiences with the Mastermind Rogue?

[nickl_2000]

I didn't play it myself, but went through level 5 with a full class Mastermind Rogue. My Oath of Heroism Paladin adored him being there. Having someone who consistently gave him advantage for smites on a 19/20 was absolutely amazing.


Mastermind Rogues do best when paired with another Rogue, Paladin, or Hexblade Warlock who gets a giant advantage from a critical strike.

[LudicSavant]

I'm always intrigued by features that are about working better with your allies than alone. What are your experiences with the Mastermind Rogue?

My experience:
- The level 3 ability is fun, allowing you to take on a sort of leadership role and directing other party members, both in combat and out. However, it's not extremely powerful, since it's just another option on the Rogue's already great selection of Bonus Actions. It also gets less and less useful as you level up, since a single roll becomes a smaller proportion of a character's impact. The Arcane Trickster can do the main thing you do with this in combat without an action (though their Familiar can of course get killed off), and has a bunch of other goodies besides (like Booming Blade Sneak Attack etc).

This is basically the ability that's supposed to carry pretty much the subclass's entire contribution to the combat tree, and it isn't really enough to bear that burden through higher tiers.

- Insightful Manipulator is a missed opportunity. Besides the line about DM fiat at the end, it is incredibly stingy with information, and slots rather awkwardly into 5e's mechanics (for example, let's say you have an Archmage masquerading as a simple beggar. You try to determine how many class levels he has to see if he's more than what he seems... but NPCs aren't built with class levels by default! Whoops!). This is a pale shadow of what some other classes get for noncombat abilities. It's pretty much entirely dependent on the DM fiat line at the end for any relevance at all.

- Your level 13 ability is a rather situational Reaction that is just a little better than the Rogue's existing Reaction for that situation. Note that you can't turn a hit into a miss with this (like with Shield), you have to use it before their attack roll, and already have to be in a situation where you have cover and are less likely to be hit anyways. And Team Monster tends to be getting tons of attacks by this level, and you're just mitigating one.

- Your level 17 ability is crucial for being able to play games of social intrigue in a world of wizards with access to spells of at least 2nd level. And you get it at level 17. I needed this at level 3, when everyone got Detect Magic. What the hell. By the time you get this, Wizards are doing things way beyond mere Detect Thoughts, so you aren't even keeping up with the masterminding game. Seriously, they should have gotten this early.

All in all I found the class really disappointing. The concept has so much potential but the execution is lacking. I like the abilities they get (besides the sloppily designed Insightful Manipulator), but they just don't have quite enough of 'em. They get too little, too late.

[Mr Adventurer]

Thanks for the replies so far. I wonder whether you could mix with a Battlemaster with the right manoeuvres to mimic the old 4e Warlord to a certain extent.

[Zuras]

Thanks for the replies so far. I wonder whether you could mix with a Battlemaster with the right manoeuvres to mimic the old 4e Warlord to a certain extent.

You could drop in 3 Rogue levels on a Battlemaster archer for a reasonably effective Green Arrow tactician build. That works mainly because ranged fighters don’t have anything else to use their bonus actions on (unless you go crossbow expert).

As others have noted, Master of Tactics is only strong if you have an ally who takes big single swings...most of the time, as a Rogue you will increase average party damage far more by giving yourself advantage using your bonus action instead of helping someone else, since individual Rogue attacks do far more damage. It’s more of a hedge ensuring you have a use for your bonus action at all times than anything else. It might actually be better as a dip for a PC without good bonus action economy.

[LudicSavant]

You could drop in 3 Rogue levels on a Battlemaster archer for a reasonably effective Green Arrow tactician build. That works mainly because ranged fighters don’t have anything else to use their bonus actions on (unless you go crossbow expert).

As others have noted, Master of Tactics is only strong if you have an ally who takes big single swings...most of the time, as a Rogue you will increase average party damage far more by giving yourself advantage using your bonus action instead of helping someone else, since individual Rogue attacks do far more damage. It’s more of a hedge ensuring you have a use for your bonus action at all times than anything else. It might actually be better as a dip for a PC without good bonus action economy.

Unfortunately I don't think it even has relevance as a dip, because you'll have a decent bonus action economy just as a result of having Rogue 2. And if you did want to go to Rogue 3, Arcane Trickster exists and can give you a familiar (amongst other nice things).

My impression of the Mastermind is that it's all-around undertuned, in combat and out.

[ImproperJustice]

I have played one from 5-11.

As others have said, Master of Tactics is great initially and faded as allies gain more attacks.
Still, it is a nice way to spend your bonus action if you have nothing else better to do.

Expertise in some social skills, does draw you towards a leadership role, and that is where is found myself. Which is fun if your fine with that.

My GM loves dispensing lore, so he handily hands out extra info via Insightful Manipulator and that has been enjoyable, although your mileage may vary.

The Rogue Chasis is pretty solid and fun to play, so even If the sub class is sub par, you will barely notice.

And I was considering crossing over to Battlemaster at level 12 or 13.
It’s hard to pass on those juicy ASIs.

[Zuras]

Unfortunately I don't think it even has relevance as a dip, because you'll have a decent bonus action economy just as a result of having Rogue 2. And if you did want to go to Rogue 3, Arcane Trickster exists and can give you a familiar (amongst other nice things).

My impression of the Mastermind is that it's all-around undertuned, in combat and out.

As a Fighter I think the bonus action help is pretty solid. Your cunning action Bonus Action economy will be primarily used for positioning and mobility, so you will still have 1/2 to 2/3 of your bonus actions to use for granting advantage. I admit it’s still not that impressive unless you face decent numbers of high AC foes or have an ally using sneak Attack or spell attacks.

In practice I’ve seen it work well with a MM Rogue + Cleric tag team. Rogue gives Cleric Advantage, Cleric hits enemy with guiding bolt, Rogue’s Familiar (from Magic Initiate) gives MM advantage, so everyone ends up attacking with advantage.

I agree it is under powered though. Something that worked more like the Scout’s L13 ability would have been much more action efficient.

[LudicSavant]

I admit it’s still not that impressive

That's kind of the thing though. It needs to be impressive for it to be worth a third level in Rogue (and not a level in another class or other Rogue subclass).

[Zuras]

That's kind of the thing though. It needs to be impressive for it to be worth a third level in Rogue (and not a level in another class or other Rogue subclass).

Would you fix it by improving the action economy (making your first hit each turn work like guiding bolt) or scaling it at higher levels (turn it into a mini commanders strike at L13 or something)?

[LudicSavant]

Would you fix it by improving the action economy (making your first hit each turn work like guiding bolt) or scaling it at higher levels (turn it into a mini commanders strike at L13 or something)?

If I were to rework the Mastermind, my focus would probably be on their ability to scale up, as granting Advantage on a single attack decreases in value as you level up (and because their L6, 13, and 17 abilities aren't all that). Also, I'd totally give them the ability to spoof Detect Thoughts at level 3, when people get Detect Thoughts so they don't have to wait until level 17 to start the wheels in motion to run a grand scheme on a society that has ever heard of basic Divination precautions (so, you know, D&D societies). To me, that's the sort of thing you can build a character concept around... but not if you're waiting until Tier 4 to get it.

I also probably wouldn't tie the ability directly to the Rogue landing an attack (like your guiding bolt suggestion), because thematically (to me anyways) a Mastermind should be able to function in at least some capacity when they're just having minions do their dirty work for them. If anything I might make them even less reliant on actually making their own attacks, like being able to give someone else your Sneak Attack for a turn instead of you.

[Ogeeogelthorpe]

I'm always intrigued by features that are about working better with your allies than alone. What are your experiences with the Mastermind Rogue?

I've recently been rolling a dagger throwing level 7 mastermind/3 lore bard in adventurers league (before the whole pandemic thing) and it's been really fun. The idea for the character is to maximize action/bonus action economy and act as a full support character, all while still being very roguish. Observant and alert feat to ensure I go first with a +10 to initiative, and another +2 to initiative from having the Fox Blade, 11 skill proficiencies, also 6 double skill proficiencies, 5 languages and 7 tool proficiencies! It's a really fun skillmonkey build.

Their general actions are action use the bracer of flying daggers / bonus action help ally, or bonus action healing word depending on the situation.
Another fun combo with that character is bonus action help ally/ action dissonant whispers / reaction opportunity attacks (if in melee)
Reactions: Uncanny dodge and cutting words.

I will say that the level 9, 13 and 17 class features are subpar for rogue but in T1 and T2 it makes for a good support rogue. But I will admit that I would have probably gotten bored if I didn't multiclass. I think if I take him into T3 in adventurers league I'll just go the rest of the way lore bard and lean more heavily on heals/support spells.