Combining the spell lists

[Theodoxus]

Doing a bit of google-fu on "why can't wizards heal", got a number of "it's a sacred cow thing for D&D" replies. But I'm curious what the playgrounders think.

If all things were otherwise equal, but if every spell (perhaps not cantrips) were available to every caster class, do you think all spell lists would end up looking pretty generic? Would there be any class you wouldn't play? Or one that was a "Must have?"

Heavy Armor cleric domains become prime? I could see maybe Tempest becoming the best caster ever, martial weapons, heavy armor, fireballs... Bard's magical secrets just become extra spells known... so is bardic inspiration sufficient motivation to play a bard over the cleric bennies?

Warlock short rest spells would also look enticing with access to every spell...

To answer the proverbial "what do you want to accomplish with this (potential) change" - it's mostly a thought exercise. IS there one class/subclass that hits all the marks, that is superior if they had access to every spell? Are the caster classes sufficiently empowered outside of spells to keep them interesting and playworthy?

Finally, if one were to do this, do you think there should be additional restrictions? Limited spell schools? Every class has to use spellbooks or limited spell knowledge (like bards, sorcerers and warlocks)?

As an aside, why are we perfectly ok with giving sorcerers and warlocks healing spells on par with bards, but not wizards? What IS it about that darn spell book that says "healing? Not in here mister!"

[MaxWilson]

Doing a bit of google-fu on "why can't wizards heal", got a number of "it's a sacred cow thing for D&D" replies. But I'm curious what the playgrounders think.

If all things were otherwise equal, but if every spell (perhaps not cantrips) were available to every caster class, do you think all spell lists would end up looking pretty generic? Would there be any class you wouldn't play? Or one that was a "Must have?"

Might as well play a Druid in that case, so you can have all the spells and wildshaping to boot.

I wouldn't mind a game where there were only two classes, Fighter and Magic-User.


As an aside, why are we perfectly ok with giving sorcerers and warlocks healing spells on par with bards, but not wizards? What IS it about that darn spell book that says "healing? Not in here mister!"

Well, there are wizards in Eberron who have healing on their spell lists, and at level 18+ they become the best healers in the game. (Before that they are merely competitive with Lore Bards and better than Clerics or Paladins.) It's not completely unheard-of.

For base wizards, mostly I think it's historical influence, from back when wizards and clerics had separate spell lists, and some spells varied by class like Hold Person (2nd level for clerics, 3rd level for wizards) and Animate Dead (3rd level for clerics, 5th level for wizards), and wizards had hardly any healing spells at all except for Timeheal which was IIRC 8th level, and Vampiric Touch which doesn't count. It's thematic.

[47Ace]

Playing a wizard becomes pointless as their main class feature (giant spell list that included 3 major class feature spells, fireball, lightning bolt, and hypnotic pattern) is now available to everyone. Sorcerers suffer as well given that their d6 hit die offsetting class feature of fireball, lightning bolt, and hypnotic pattern is available to everyone but, with all spells available there may be some more cool metamagic combos. Overall Druids and particularly clerics do well with d8 hit die lots of spells known and now access to whatever spell they want. Paladins lose a unique class feature in find steed ranger lose some including the 5th level one that lets them make 4 attacks a turn. That spell in particular gives any full caster with extra attack the ability to make 4 attacks at level 9 robbing fighters of a class feature. On the other hand that spell does give a reason to play something other druids and clerics. With regards to sorcerer and warlock subclasses getting healing, well a wizard subclass that did the same would not be unresonable. Bards are support classes that get healing to help with support and depend on there subclasses to get offecsive class features with a choice between fireball/spirit guardians and extra attack. Overall asking what if the spell list were all smooshed together is like asking what is everyone got the fighters extra attack, or the barbarians d12 hit die, or cleric armor and divine intervention, handing some of one classe's class features to other classes devalues that class and increases the power of the most different class that can still use that feature.

TL;DR Spell lists are class features and should be treated as such. A wizard subclass with healing would be reasonable just like the current cleric subclass with fireball.

[MrStabby]

So a few things spring to mind... now clerics can eldritch blast, useful with potent spell casting. Also particularly nice for them as their existing cantrips tend to be saves rather than attack rolls. This gives something to take advantage of advantage or the paralysed condition.

I love the order cleric anyway, but it becomes a bit silly here. Granting attacks when you cast a spell on an ally is even better when you have more good friendly targeting spells. Let's throw down that haste with an extra bonus attack? Loads of good options.

Likewise their enchantment as a bonus action spells. Hold person as a bonus action was cool, but without an attack roll cantrip you were not getting the absolute most out of it. Following it up with firebolt, eldritch blast or another attack roll cantrip just adds even more to it. Same for hold monster... high level enchantments like feeblemind also rock. And all this with the concentration benefits of being able to wear heavy armour. Having so many spells you actually want as domain spells just leaves more spells to pull from the entire list. Addition of spells like hex is just gravy- nice enough on a warlock but when you can use a low level slot as and when you want to be damage focussed its nicer still. You can cast it on a friend, trigger an attack then shift it if you want.

I think that whilst wizards do get less than some other classes from this I wouldn't rule them out. Look at the enchanter and their twin spell ability - sure it's far in at level 10 but if you were playing around that level wouldn't you love access to viscious mockery, command, dissonant whispers as low levels spells that would have a disproportionate effect on the fight?

Conjuration wizard with conjure animals?

I think the impact on the less casting classes is lower, but also interesting. What would an eldritch knight take if everything is on the wizard list? Find stead? Wrathful smite? Hex?

Interesting thought experiment.

[Kane0]

Also bards spell knowledge becomes moot.

[JackPhoenix]

Also bards spell knowledge becomes moot.

So will warlock patron spells, as those are added to the class list rather than being always prepared/known, Divine Soul's ability to pick spells from cleric list, and warlock's invocation that allow you to cast a spell using a spell slot will be even more useless than they already are.

That said, I'm currently running a game where it works like that. Sort of. It's a warhammer game, and I've made some (well, many) houserules to "warhammer feel" to D&D 5e... I allow to pick spells regardless of what class list it originally belonged to, as long as it fits the thematics of warhammer's winds of magic, and the only spellcasting class is a (modified) wizard (and limited to war magic school too). The group's wizard is an elf, so unlike human wizards, she doesn't risk being possessed by a daemon, turning inside out and exploding (and not necessarily in this order) if she uses more than one of the winds (well, she still does, spellcasting in warhammer is dangerous, but not as much). The character uses winds of fire and life, so she's got both healing and blasting, though at the cost of.... well, being able to do pretty much anything else.