Help me optimise a BardBarian

[OctaviOz]

Hi guys, pretty simple request. Looking for best way to optimise and build out a Bard/Barbarian multiclass as well as ideas on optimal combat play style. Happy to consider all ideas.

Starting point:
Race = Mountain Dwarf (RP and character concept reasons)
All official classes allowed and UA by DM approval
Point Buy
+1 bonus feat at first level
Starting at level 5

Initial thoughts:
Rush Barbarian 5. Damage resistance, Reckless attack, excellent HPs and 2nd attack
Bonus Feat = PAM with Spear and Shield style. I'm hoping this will be a decent (not necessarily maximised) dpr + front line support build.
After 5 in Barbarian go Bard.

Happy to look at other options as I'm not sold on any particular build. What sub-classes? Spells? Feats?

Thanks!

[MrStabby]

Initial thoughts - lore bard and shield mastery instead of pole arm mastery. With cutting words and expertise in athletics you should be well, well equipped to win those opposed rolls

Dont stress to much about not being able to cast whilst raging. Treat spells as an alternative to help you conserve rage and to give you versatility.

On the other hand do use things like magical secrets to get awesome stuff. Armour of agathys is superb with rage for example. Depending on setting you might be able to get this through a dragonmark.

[OctaviOz]

Initial thoughts - lore bard and shield mastery instead of pole arm mastery. With cutting words and expertise in athletics you should be well, well equipped to win those opposed rolls

Dont stress to much about not being able to cast whilst raging. Treat spells as an alternative to help you conserve rage and to give you versatility.

On the other hand do use things like magical secrets to get awesome stuff. Armour of agathys is superb with rage for example. Depending on setting you might be able to get this through a dragonmark.

I was wavering between PAM and Shield mastery but I can see your point.
Lore Bard was my first inclination as well.

[CheddarChampion]

As far as stats go, 16/14/14/8/10/14 should work okay.

[Sorinth]

I would suggest mainly being a bard with a 2 or maybe 3 level dip into Barbarian. You don't need to go 5 levels of Barbarian since you can get your extra attack from Valor or Swords.

Starting at 5 I'd be tempted to be a Barbarian 1 / Bard 4. Get up to 6 in Bard for the extra attack and then maybe take another level or two in Barbarian and do the rest as bard.

[Sorinth]

If the bardbarian is for RP reasons you could also just be a straight barbarian with the Performer background and Inspiring Leader feat.

[Lavaeolus]

As you might expect, Bard and Barbarian are not the most naturally synergetic of classes. One positive area I could see is grappling: between Expertise and Rage, and potentially between Cutting Words and Enlarge/Reduce, this character is probably going to succeed on any given grapple check. Likewise, they'll be pretty good at shoving, which makes Shield Master tempting as mentioned.

Otherwise, though, specialising in each class is going to come at the cost of the other. Our Barbarian features don't benefit from Charisma, but our Bard features are heavily reliant on it -- and between needing CON, STR, and ideally some DEX to get the most out of medium armour, we don't have the stats free to just invest in CHA anyway. Something's gotta give.

So, I think it'd be wise to mainly stick to one class, and then see what we get out of each dip.

1) I'm a Bard! The Barbarian isn't without useful features; any Bard might appreciate CON saves, medium armour, Danger Sense and with a more significant dip Extra Attack. But be aware some of the features Barbarian gets us are redundant depending on Bard subclass, particularly the more martially-inclined ones.

If I went this route, I might start as Barbarian, beeline Swords Bard 6, then weigh up investing further in Bard versus taking some more Barbarian levels (potentially up to Barbarian 4). The big trade-off of that plan are the benefits of Barbarian 1 versus getting Extra Attack two levels after everyone else. Do note that Swords Bard already gets medium armour, but ah well.

2) I'm a Barbarian! A Barbarian will get some utility out of spells; they might not be able to use them while raging, but that's not to say they can't get any use out of them. Expertise would be nice, and if we're going to at least level 3 we might want to shop between subclasses. Cutting Words from Lore would be nice albeit limited by our lack of Charisma, and the extra proficiencies could be appreciated. Swords Bard will get us a Fighting Style and Blade Flourishes, but likewise our likely low Charisma modifier limits the use of the latter.

[Biggstick]

If the bardbarian is for RP reasons you could also just be a straight barbarian with the Performer background and Inspiring Leader feat.

Exactly this. The only high value synergy I see in combining Bard and Barbarian is Expertise.

Aside from the Expertise synergy, there are some niche Bard class features and archetype features usable by a Barbarian.

Anything listed with BI is based off of Bardic Inspiration, and as such only has two uses with the expected 14 in Charisma per Long Rest until Bard level 5.

• Jack of all Trades
• BI Glamour Bard's Mantle of Inspiration (temp HP for allies, doesn't pair well with Inspiring Leader)
• BI Sword Bard's Blade Flourish (weaker battlemaster maneuvers)
• BI Whispers Bard's Psychic Blade (weaker divine smite once per turn)
• BI Lore Bard's Cutting Words (solid use of a reaction)

And yes, while one can build a character around picking up these features, I think it can more easily be represented through the Entertainer background and the Inspiring Leader feat.

[Segev]

Given your initial thoughts are to rush Barb 5, I want to ask a simple question: what is it you want out of Bard?

Not criticising nor implying anything, but the answer to that question will help identify what the best way to optimize things from it might be.

[CTurbo]

Hi guys, pretty simple request. Looking for best way to optimise and build out a Bard/Barbarian multiclass as well as ideas on optimal combat play style. Happy to consider all ideas.

Starting point:
Race = Mountain Dwarf (RP and character concept reasons)
All official classes allowed and UA by DM approval
Point Buy
+1 bonus feat at first level
Starting at level 5

Initial thoughts:
Rush Barbarian 5. Damage resistance, Reckless attack, excellent HPs and 2nd attack
Bonus Feat = PAM with Spear and Shield style. I'm hoping this will be a decent (not necessarily maximised) dpr + front line support build.
After 5 in Barbarian go Bard.

Happy to look at other options as I'm not sold on any particular build. What sub-classes? Spells? Feats?

Thanks!


Are you wanting to be a Bard with a Barbarian dip, or a Barbarian with a Bard dip?

If you want to be mainly a Bard, I'd limit the Barbarian levels to 2. If you want to be mainly a Barbarian, I would still want at least 5 Bard levels for short rest d8 Inspiration dice and 3rd level spells.



Also, you could just be a Barbarian and take the Performer background, and Magic Initiate: Bard as your free feat.

[MrStabby]

Are you wanting to be a Bard with a Barbarian dip, or a Barbarian with a Bard dip?

If you want to be mainly a Bard, I'd limit the Barbarian levels to 2. If you want to be mainly a Barbarian, I would still want at least 5 Bard levels for short rest d8 Inspiration dice and 3rd level spells.



Also, you could just be a Barbarian and take the Performer background, and Magic Initiate: Bard as your free feat.

Or be a strength based swords bard with the Outlander background. Guild masters Guide to Ravnica is allowed add the Gruul background.

[chando]

While i agree with what other have said about the class spread, I think the original idea diserves some consideration.

barbarian 5 gives you everything you mentioned but the class really gets a littl stale after that, so any Barb 5 / Other class 15 might work. Casters work great dispite not casting in rage. If you can find one good non-concentration opening spell, be battlefield control, buff (damage especially), or AoE, you can cast and than rage plenty combats. and the number of tools and options for stuff outside of combat also skyrockets.


Feats: Either PAM or Shieldmaster will use your bonus action, that betwen entering rage, inspirations and casting bonus action spells while not raging (and some barbarian paths depending on wich way you go). PAM gives your better damage if thats what you are looking for, with the increased chance to get a strike offturn aswell, but locks you in a weapon type, makes you less likely to use hammer or axes you migth find in your adventures, also typical dwarven weapons... Great Weapon Master use bonus action more moderally, so it works out nice in the class combination, and gives a large enegh benefit while not triggering the bonus action extra attack to give way more damage as well.

If going spear&shield, Warcaster is also a feat that becomes necessary to cast with full hands... It gives you the ability to cast spells as a AoO, but again not while raging. so you get a little less benefit from it while raging. Still, the main benefit of warcaster is never droping concentration. that you also dont need to worry while raging as you cant concentrate :P so yeah....

if you/DM are ok with you just casting without a weapon and draw it again while figthing next round you may not have these problem and warcaster becomes unecessary on the build.

How much do you intent on investing in STR? You can be a mountain dwarf for a starting Str of 16, and if you are ok with that and waiting for a Str item eventually coming your way and get a bet you cna safely invest more in feats and/or/Cha with your ASI;

If you want to increase STR, i suggest starting high (17-18 if rolled scores) and max it soon... or keep it at 18. Its the same as the gautlets of Ogre STR, and any belt you get will get you higher than Str 20 anyway, if you dont get max STR by level 8-9 I feel it loses its value because by the time you reach level 12 you will likely have access on a belt and there are more meaningful feats to take at that level.

Sentinel is a great feat if you are looking to get some off-turn attack while raging, and exchanging PAM for versatility in weapon choice during the game.

Inspiring Leader is great even with ok charisma, but I would get at least ONE combat feat (shieldmaster/PAM/Sentinel/GWM) to give the barbarian feel and damage output. In fact I would probably choose one of the feats above and Inpiring leader and up Cha with other ASI almost any build of Bard/Barb
.

On the advantages of builds
Barb 5 / Bard 15. Gets extra attack right away. Starting with inspiring leader gives you a "Pre-quel" to bard levels. :P Slow aquisition of spells, but you migth not notice as your are just as effecient as a full barbarian most of the time. Feels mostly a barbarian in combat. Opens up Lore bard for reaction useage of Cutting words, and magical secrets at bard 6 (Char level 11, so a good time to get a boost). Glamour bard also a great option, though i would not take inspiring leader and instead take something else (more offensive feat, Str ASI, etc)


Barb 2-3 / Bard 17-18. Going Valor or Swords for an late Extra attack, at char level 7-8, but may start with second levels spells already and gets them faster. More apeal for a warcaster build as you get less rages, uses them mostly like a self buff to end figths or in figths you want to mainly melee, or survive button. Dissonant Whisper is great of generating Massive AoO effect from you and any allies around. Can also cast a second spell that targets the target as a reaction with warcaster. I like valor better, swords maneuvering and defending maneuver are pretty nice. You should likely increase your Cha @bard 4 & 8 levels.

Straight Barbarian. I do like single classed builds that bring concepts together. starting with Healer and Inspiring Leader lets you be effective as a Leader/healer in the group(duh) while still being a mostly barbarian and figthing like one. take "combat" feats later on, as your damage should be ok if not stelar until level 8. Geting healer at level 8 after 3 levels of play i feel like the gorup will be already playing without it and finding solutions and might be less valuable. However any combat feat will be useful all combats, while healer might come in handy in some but wont make much difference in the result in others so an argoument can be made to take a combat feat earlier and take healer/inspiring leader latter if necessary to have both... unless you are the only healer in the group! :P Starting with a combat feat and healer is a nice compromise. Inspiring leader gives more at higher levels, where higer damage makes de different be sufficiet to make a difference betwen going down or staying up. Healer also have the benefit of being able to bring the actual cleric/druid/paladin of the party back to the figth as well.

Good Game!

[MagneticKitty]

You could:
Barbarian 2
paladin 2
Whispers bard x
for like a melee smite build. Magic initiate can make your one attack booming blade.
I think paladin is a better fit than barb in general.. You could still be an angry martial flavor wise.
What specific ability from barb did you want?