Paladin Oathbreaker Help

[Drunkprince]

Hello There,

Since our campaign is coming to an end, im preparing my self for the next run. with the blessing of our DM i decided to create a Paladin oathbreaker. In my mind i have set my char as a small clone of Arthas, (wow) but my research brought me to the point that oathbreaker are great with POM and Sentinel. Is that really true? Playing with two-handed will not unlock the true potential of that oath? Should i follow that Pom/Sentinel road too?
As far as the races is concerned, Im between Fallen Aasimar and Vuman. Im not a fun of the multiclassing system so i tend to stay to my first pick..

How should i set the points (point buy) ? should i max charisma or STR?

Tnx in advance.

[CTurbo]

Fallen Aasimar is perfect for Oathbreaker, but if you want feats I'd start Vhuman and take PAM at level 1. Then alternate bumping Str and Cha until both are maxed out.

[AgenderArcee]

At level 7+ the Oathbreaker really benefits from making as many attacks as possible, because Aura of Hate adds your Cha modifier to the damage of each hit you make. Polearm Master and Sentinel will give you a bonus action attack and the opportunity to more easily make opportunity attacks, likely getting in four attacks per round, while also benefiting from reach and being able to use Great Weapon Master if you use a heavy polearm. It's a good build for any Paladin, but lets you take maximum advantage of your specific subclass's Aura.

However, accruing all these feats will set you back on your Cha and Str progression. This is why a 1-level Hexblade dip particularly shines here, as you can get your base damage and Aura damage from the same stat and don't need to bother getting Str above 15. IMO this would also be a good fit for an Arthas-type character, who after all is turned away from his oath and his humanity by a cursed sword!

So yeah the most optimal build damage-wise is probably Variant Human PAM, 1 level Hexblade dip, max Cha, Sentinel, GWM. Note that you wouldn't have the whole thing until level 20, though, and you'll miss out on the Oathbreaker capstone, which is very cool. But you can't get all of those feats AND max both Str and Cha. So, whether or not you commit to this plan should depend on what level you're starting at/what level you expect to reach, and how focused you are on min-maxing.

That's all to say that you have options, and a Fallen Aasimar Oathbreaker with a greatsword will still be perfectly strong. You'll also be able to use your bonus action to command undead minions (who also benefit from your Aura of Hate) using your Channel Divinity and, at level 9, your own castings of Animate Dead, so that's an advantage you won't get if you're using your bonus action for PAM all the time. You will not be gimping yourself if you don't do PAM/Sentinel.

[Drunkprince]

At level 7+ the Oathbreaker really benefits from making as many attacks as possible, because Aura of Hate adds your Cha modifier to the damage of each hit you make. Polearm Master and Sentinel will give you a bonus action attack and the opportunity to more easily make opportunity attacks, likely getting in four attacks per round, while also benefiting from reach and being able to use Great Weapon Master if you use a heavy polearm. It's a good build for any Paladin, but lets you take maximum advantage of your specific subclass's Aura.

However, accruing all these feats will set you back on your Cha and Str progression. This is why a 1-level Hexblade dip particularly shines here, as you can get your base damage and Aura damage from the same stat and don't need to bother getting Str above 15. IMO this would also be a good fit for an Arthas-type character, who after all is turned away from his oath and his humanity by a cursed sword!

So yeah the most optimal build damage-wise is probably Variant Human PAM, 1 level Hexblade dip, max Cha, Sentinel, GWM. Note that you wouldn't have the whole thing until level 20, though, and you'll miss out on the Oathbreaker capstone, which is very cool. But you can't get all of those feats AND max both Str and Cha. So, whether or not you commit to this plan should depend on what level you're starting at/what level you expect to reach, and how focused you are on min-maxing.

That's all to say that you have options, and a Fallen Aasimar Oathbreaker with a greatsword will still be perfectly strong. You'll also be able to use your bonus action to command undead minions (who also benefit from your Aura of Hate) using your Channel Divinity and, at level 9, your own castings of Animate Dead, so that's an advantage you won't get if you're using your bonus action for PAM all the time. You will not be gimping yourself if you don't do PAM/Sentinel.

Tnx for your analyzed answer.
Im not familiar with warlock at all. i read about the hexblade but i have no clue how that works. Can you elaborate that for me please?

[Corran]

Tnx for your analyzed answer.
Im not familiar with warlock at all. i read about the hexblade but i have no clue how that works. Can you elaborate that for me please?
First of all charisma will become your attacking stat, meaning you'll use it instead of str (or dex) for both attacks and damage. That's good cause it means that you don't have to spend ASI's bumping str, and that's good cause charisma is important for lots of things (personally, I prefer prioritizing charisma to str for oathbreakers anyway, mostly because of their channel divinity and their aura of protection). Secondly, you'll improve you ranged attacks considerably by getting eldritch blast (warlock cantrip), especially with a 2 level dip (cause at lvl 2 warlocks get invocations, and you can use one or both of them to boost EB). Thirdly you will be able to get the shield spell (paladins aren't typically hard pressed for reactions; though be careful, cause every time you use shiled it means that you can't threaten with an opportunity attack), along with one or two (depending on how many levels of warlock you'll take) extra slots that will recharge on a short(!) rest, and that boosts considerably your AC tanking. Of course, delaying your paladin progression hurts, but overall I'd say it's probably worth it.

If you dip hexblade (or another caster), I might hold back from sentinel and take warcaster in its place instead (also probably change to S&B, using a one-handed spear if I was set on PAM). Sentinel allows you to try to keep one enemy per turn close by (and that's good combined with dreadful aspect), but warcaster and booming blade (from warlock) is a decent substitute and it doesn't cost a feat. Of course, you can always take sentinel if your plan is to use it for extra reaction attacks (biffed up by aura of hate and improved divine smite), though little bit less control that way (and control plays nicely with dreadful aspect, as mentioned). If you do take sentinel for reaction attacks (you'll need melee allies fighting next to you in this case), don't bother with BB and grab either green flame blade or a utility cantrip like minor illusion or prestidigitation as your second warlock cantrip (definitely utility cantrip if you end up going with PAM).

PAM is good for paladins (especially after they get IDS at lvl 11), and it can be even better for oathbreakers that get aura of hate at lvl 7, but... depending on how often you'll have to use your bonus action to control undead minions (from animate dead that you'll get at lvl 9), you might even want to skip it entirely. A few zombies will help a lot in keeping frightened (by dreadful aspect) foes within 30' of you (so no additional saves, enemies roll against grappler with disadvantage), and with aura of protection your zombies will be particularly tanky (even more so if you'll be allowed to armor them). It might be difficult to convince your DM to allow your zombies to grapple the right targets with a pre existing command, so that may very well be your first (or first two, depending on initiative) bonus actions in some fights.

[Quoz]

If available as an option, double scimitar gives the offhand attack of PAM without the feat, quite useful in the early game. A 2d4 weapon also gets a lot of mileage from the great weapon fighting style. While not necessarily on a hexblade, if you go half elf you can pick up Revenant Blade and Elven Accuracy for a wicked crit fishing build.

Definitely agree with the hexblade dip. Adding Hex, shield, armor of Agathys, eldritch blast, hexblades curse and Cha based attacks is a lot of value for such a small dip.

By 12th level you can stack hex, hexblade's curse, aura of hate, and improved divine smite for a single target beatdown. That's a lot of pain to bring to the table.

[Drunkprince]

Definitely agree with the hexblade dip. Adding Hex, shield, armor of Agathys, eldritch blast, hexblades curse and Cha based attacks is a lot of value for such a small dip.

By 12th level you can stack hex, hexblade's curse, aura of hate, and improved divine smite for a single target beatdown. That's a lot of pain to bring to the table.

This is what i had in my mind and this is how i will go. 9 pala 3 warlock, but i think i will stick to Aasimar for the flavor..

[da newt]

How do you plan to RP your oath-breaker evil paladin into an adventuring party? Why would anyone associate with an unabashedly EVIL and Untrustworthy party member?

I think the mechanics of the oath-breaker are interesting and powerful, but I just can't wrap my head around how the EVIL character becomes part of a party. Add in Fallen Assimar (literally such a terrible person that the celestial forsakes them and their wing flesh and feathers are stripped away), and it get's even more difficult for me to imagine anyone wanting this horrible person in the party. How does that guy be a valued TEAM player?

[Drunkprince]

How do you plan to RP your oath-breaker evil paladin into an adventuring party? Why would anyone associate with an unabashedly EVIL and Untrustworthy party member?

I think the mechanics of the oath-breaker are interesting and powerful, but I just can't wrap my head around how the EVIL character becomes part of a party. Add in Fallen Assimar (literally such a terrible person that the celestial forsakes them and their wing flesh and feathers are stripped away), and it get's even more difficult for me to imagine anyone wanting this horrible person in the party. How does that guy be a valued TEAM player?

He will be a regular paladin for the first or maybe two lvls, after that slowly he will start to change. The idea of his justice will change, he will face the problem with his own beliefs and not his order. Inspired by Arthas where he had to purge the whole Stratholme cause of his belief, he will follow his steps, abandoning his oath because they are "wrong" and he is "right". And since DM accepted that fact that i will slowly change my alignment i will do it.

killing one innocent to save hundred...

and by doing that he will fall..

EDIT: For the Aasimar flavor i will use a deity that was responsible for corrupting his soul, by huge promises of power, helping him do his justice as he finds it right.

[JackPhoenix]

He will be a regular paladin for the first or maybe two lvls, after that slowly he will start to change. The idea of his justice will change, he will face the problem with his own beliefs and not his order. Inspired by Arthas where he had to purge the whole Stratholme cause of his belief, he will follow his steps, abandoning his oath because they are "wrong" and he is "right". And since DM accepted that fact that i will slowly change my alignment i will do it.

killing one innocent to save hundred...

and by doing that he will fall..

EDIT: For the Aasimar flavor i will use a deity that was responsible for corrupting his soul, by huge promises of power, helping him do his justice as he finds it right.
Remember that Arthas was kicked out of his group after Stratholme....

[Sception]

sentinel combos well with polearm master, but between normal opportunity attacks and polearm master itself you should be pretty good for fairly reliable opportunity attacks to get your aura damage in. On a fallen Aasimar oathbreaker I'd still recommend polearm master at level 4, but sentinel can wait until after you've raised your strength and charisma a fair bit. You might even skip it entirely, unless you're specifically trying to play a protective role as your party tank, in which case you might consider conquest as a more control oriented oath, and one that won't buff the melee damage of enemy fiends and undead. Buffing enemy damage is definitely something a party tank shouldn't be doing, but it's something a dedicated damage dealer can justifiably get away with.

Either one might benefit from a hexblade dip to save on late progression ASIs, though it isn't compulsory in either case, as the biggest payoffs from that come at later levels than most games reach anyway.

[Biggstick]

You're looking to build an Arthas style character, but I feel like you're leaving out the things that made Arthas who he was.

He used a massive hammer called Light's Vengeance. Later, he was corrupted by Frostmourne, a massive greatsword. This greatsword is a large part of what defines Arthas, and can be best represented through picking up Great Weapon Master.

He started out his life as a Paladin who only ever wanted to protect his people. He had a great upbringing, learning how to fight from some of the biggest names in WoW history while at the same time developing friendships with those within the Alliance. He also fostered a relationship with Jaina Proudmoore, though it did get put on hold for a short while. Arthas truly had a great upbringing that instilled in him the differences between right and wrong. He had everything going for him and was faced with an incredibly difficult decision-making tree that ultimately led to his becoming the Lich King.

The height from which Arthas fell is what makes him such a memorable character.

After his fall and eventual assumption of the role as the Lich King, Arthas did some incredibly terrible things, but those aren't what I consider as defining him in regard to noteworthy aspects of a PC build.

As for your character, if you want to build a character as memorable as Arthas, you need to focus on building toward the fall. Let your DM know that you're building a PC that is able to fall. Start the character out as whatever flavor of Paladin you'd like (I'd suggest Devotion, but do as you please). Allow the DM to present scenarios that prove your character's devotion to something good. Whatever the problem is, it needs to be something that presents two evils as the outcome. Making either choice should be challenging, with one ultimately being more pragmatic (and perhaps considered colder/darker) then the other.

I would also work to include a cursed sword into the mix. If you decide to go Hexblade as others have suggested, you need at least 3 levels to use Charisma as your attack stat with any 2 handed heavy weapon. Personally, I wouldn't recommend it, as picking up 3 Warlock levels will slow down your Paladin progression quite a bit. Through use of a cursed sword, the DM can insert the sword somewhere that fits the story. It can represent both the progression of your fall and potentially a greater BBEG for the party to deal with. The taking of this cursed sword would represent your character becoming an Oathbreaker Paladin.
Unless you have a hoard of Undead or Fiends, you won't be getting much mileage out Aura of Hate. Both your Strength and your Charisma will be fine at 16 until you have the desired feats. I'd ask your DM if they're ok with you playing a Protector Aasimar, but with the +1 Strength from Fallen Aasimar (so you can start with 16 Strength/Charisma). If they're not willing to make that adjustment, you can also go Human. Either way you end up going, pick up GWM as your first feat. Following GWM, even out your stats with your next ASI (if you need to) or pick up a combat feat (Resilient Constitution, Lucky, Alert, etc).

Don't be afraid to ask your DM to insert a cursed sword. I would recommend this over Hexblade, as you'll need 3 levels of Warlock to be able to use Charisma with a 2h weapon with the heavy property (also to note, all polearms have the 2h heavy property). At that point, I would suggest going to Warlock 5 for the ultra-flavorful Tomb of Levistus (quite fitting for a Lich King). However, going this deep means you're not progressing as a Paladin.

If you're just looking to create a replica of the Lich King though, I'll echo what someone else above me mentioned Arthas; why hasn't your party kicked you out yet? Are they just as Evil as you?

[Bel-Torac]

Point buy or roll for stats?

Polearm master will optimize your amount of attacks, I recommend it. If your campaign contains a belt of giant strength, you will be kicking lots of ass. If you multiclass you will miss your level 20 ability and your level 18 30 foot aura depending what you do.

As for race, you can't go wrong with either. V. Human would be good if you want to max out stats. Fallen Aasimar if you think you'll be using the fear ability a lot. I personally played half orc and it worked for me. I took polearm master after the str and cha bump at level 4.