Theater of the Mind System

[Trask]

While 5e touts Theater of the Mind as the primary way its meant to be played, it certainly feels like a weakly justified assertion, with class abilities all being measured in feet and precise movement being key in some places, whenever I've used TotM I've pretty much always had to handwave a ton of things.

This is serviceable but unsatisfying. Has anyone developed or seen a coherent system for handling combat without using a map and miniatures that doesn't rely on precise foot measurements? I was thinking something like "zones" of combat, or 13th Age's "close & far" system for handling the movement of creatures in the game. And if there isn't could anyone suggest a system that has one that wouldn't be too hard to convert to 5e?

[Man_Over_Game]

While 5e touts Theater of the Mind as the primary way its meant to be played, it certainly feels like a weakly justified assertion, with class abilities all being measured in feet and precise movement being key in some places, whenever I've used TotM I've pretty much always had to handwave a ton of things.

This is serviceable but unsatisfying. Has anyone developed or seen a coherent system for handling combat without using a map and miniatures that doesn't rely on precise foot measurements? I was thinking something like "zones" of combat, or 13th Age's "close & far" system for handling the movement of creatures in the game. And if there isn't could anyone suggest a system that has one that wouldn't be too hard to convert to 5e?

I haven't seen anything that comes close except for 13th Age's system.

There's not really much reason that wouldn't work. Just convert anything between 5-0 feet as Adjacent, 10-25 feet as Close, 30-55 feet as Far, and 60+ feet as Very Far. When a feature or ability would increase your speed (Monk, for instance), just say that it allows you to move one additional step (so you now can move to a Far target).

[col_impact]

You can use Shape Water, Minor Illusion, Druidcraft, and Thamaturgy to create a great Theater of the Mind surround sound Oculus system.

So if you want to be a DM in a game or something like that.

Anyway, your question made me think about that. So pardon the off-topicness.

On topic, I enjoy Theater of the Mind style. I get to stay in character as DM. Over a big expanse you really only need to go off distance and formation. Let the map scroll under the players and deal with direction with the o'Clock system. Use Z die for elevation.

[Pex]

Don't sweat positioning. Ballpark distance between sides when combat starts. PC's harmful area effect spells are obviously cast so as not to hurt party members. A player wants to move to a spot. Exact distance doesn't matter; it only needs to be close enough. PCs can use encounter terrain such as cover when it's there and close enough.

[Luccan]

Most of my gaming when I was younger was TotM, in editions that arguably cared more about positioning. Admittedly, I now think a battlemap is a great boon to many tables, but if you can get across the layout and enemy positions in a way people can follow and don't mind a little fuzziness, TotM works perfectly fine. That said, it sounds like this near and far system could work, but you do need to be aware of things that increase both effective range (Spell Sniper, Distant Spell, Bugbear's Long Limbs) and movement speed (Monks, several spells, Wildshape) and think on how you'll incorporate those into your game.

[Tanarii]

When I've run theatre of the mind it was usually for Easy or Medium combats with enemies mostly of one type. And I didn't sweat the distances too much.

But confusion among my players about distances and positioning eventually led me to switch back to battle mats for more complex & harder battles. Especially since my way of making battles harder is typically more enemies, not higher CR enemies.

I'm not a fan of zones. I've been running Forbiddan Lands, and it creates just as many edge cases as just ballparking distances. And the edge cases are usually more irritating, because zones have edges.

[HappyDaze]

Don't sweat positioning. Ballpark distance between sides when combat starts. PC's harmful area effect spells are obviously cast so as not to hurt party members. A player wants to move to a spot. Exact distance doesn't matter; it only needs to be close enough. PCs can use encounter terrain such as cover when it's there and close enough.

I have yet to find a 5e group that would find this method acceptable. It always starts off with someone or another wanting to know exactly where something/someone is positioned, then it progresses quickly to every 5 ft. square having to be measured out and mapped.

[Waazraath]

Don't sweat positioning. Ballpark distance between sides when combat starts. PC's harmful area effect spells are obviously cast so as not to hurt party members. A player wants to move to a spot. Exact distance doesn't matter; it only needs to be close enough. PCs can use encounter terrain such as cover when it's there and close enough.

This is more or less how we do it as well.

What makes totm difficult is that it really differs from person to person how good this works. Some folks just have a mind that has more problem visualizing a description in their head. What I sometimes do as a DM is not use a battle map with squares or hexes, but do make a small sketch where everybody/-thing is at the beginning of combat. That helps.

[Tanarii]

This is more or less how we do it as well.

What makes totm difficult is that it really differs from person to person how good this works. Some folks just have a mind that has more problem visualizing a description in their head. What I sometimes do as a DM is not use a battle map with squares or hexes, but do make a small sketch where everybody/-thing is at the beginning of combat. That helps.oh yeah, I have a couple of white boards, one poster sized and the other paper sized. They're essential if trying to do theatre of the mind combat encounters.

[micahaphone]

oh yeah, I have a couple of white boards, one poster sized and the other paper sized. They're essential if trying to do theatre of the mind combat encounters.


I agree, in my experience TotM works best with simple drawings, or battlemaps with player/enemy tokens, but no strict grid on it. Everyone sees where everyone is, and understands the layout of the battle.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Fate's Zones (https://fate-srd.com/fate-core/conflicts#zones) are the best Theater of the Mind setup I've run into. You break the terrain up into smaller areas ("the battlements, the courtyard, the keep") within which positioning doesn't matter. You can shift zones (https://fate-srd.com/fate-core/conflicts#movement) pretty freely if there's no obstacle, but if there is-- a door you have to break down, a wall to scale, or someone trying to keep you from leaving-- you need your action and a roll. It's neat, quick, and intuitive.

[MaxWilson]

While 5e touts Theater of the Mind as the primary way its meant to be played, it certainly feels like a weakly justified assertion, with class abilities all being measured in feet and precise movement being key in some places, whenever I've used TotM I've pretty much always had to handwave a ton of things.

This is serviceable but unsatisfying. Has anyone developed or seen a coherent system for handling combat without using a map and miniatures that doesn't rely on precise foot measurements? I was thinking something like "zones" of combat, or 13th Age's "close & far" system for handling the movement of creatures in the game. And if there isn't could anyone suggest a system that has one that wouldn't be too hard to convert to 5e?

I haven't seen one, but I think if you want to make it coherent with 5E the zones have to be no bigger than a creature could normally walk in one round. If you do close/near/far where far is 100 yards away, it will be displeasing if someone can move from far to near in one round just by Dashing, but if you do close/near/far where far is "through two doorways" it won't be disruptive. It's okay if distances moved are smaller than would normally be allowed though because you can handwave it as "other creatures were in the way or there was difficult terrain (furniture) and you had to go around".

Honestly though I don't see the need to codify it as "zones" etc. because regular Theater of the Mind works well enough. (Can refer to a whiteboard when necessary but often isn't.)

[EggKookoo]

We use minis and rough-sketch grid-paper mapping but it's mainly for visualization and the fun of seeing our characters as minis. I find it much easier to draw out a box and doodle where the doors and such are, rather than rely on pure verbal descriptions. The players feel more comfortable understanding where they are in relation to everything else. But I don't measure precise distances during combat and rely a lot on "eh, close enough" for just about everything.

[jjordan]

I have yet to find a 5e group that would find this method acceptable. It always starts off with someone or another wanting to know exactly where something/someone is positioned, then it progresses quickly to every 5 ft. square having to be measured out and mapped.Pretty much my experience. They'll parse every detail looking for that advantage roll or opportunity.

[Man_Over_Game]

Pretty much my experience. They'll parse every detail looking for that advantage roll or opportunity.

One thing that fixes that is forcing quick decisions. Remind the player of the 2 most pressing things going on, give them some insight as to what's around when they press deeper, but otherwise say that they take the Ready or Dodge action if their indecision takes too long, extending more time if they're asking relevant questions (like, can I take cover behind the door before I shoot?).

[Boci]

One thing that fixes that is forcing quick decisions. Remind the player of the 2 most pressing things going on, give them some insight as to what's around when they press deeper, but otherwise say that they take the Ready or Dodge action if their indecision takes too long, extending more time if they're asking relevant questions (like, can I take cover behind the door before I shoot?).

But the whole point is they will all be relevant questions. Can I reach the enemy? Can I do so without giving other enemy an AoO against me? If I trip the goblin, will he still be able to teach and attack the wizard? Can I fight the guard whilst also keeping the rogue in range of my aura? Stuff that would be immediatly apparant if a battle map were being used, but can need a lof of questions to establish without one.

[col_impact]

You could run the game Warhammer Style. Almost a straight port. Re-enact the final Avenger battle!

[Laserlight]

Zones tends to be "a battle mat with sloppy 30-40ft spaces rather than 5ft spaces", in my experience.

For a quick simple fight-"You come in the front door of your building and look up the stairwell to realize someone is trying to break in your 4th floor apartment door, what do you do?" with a couple of melee PCs and one monster--I can handle it all verbally. If it's an interesting fight with moving terrain and cover and all that, I need to draw it or be forever explaining yet again where the barrel is relative to the balcony.