The Official Church of ACF Chaining

[SirNibbles]

Let's do something mildly crazy and see where we can go from there: ACF chaining (and some rules bending)!

Crafty Hunter ACF costs you everything Rage-y and gives you the ranger's Favored Enemy and Archery Combat Style class features. Now let's trade the Combat Style for the ranger's Wildshape ACF. That's a pretty need start. Trap sense -> Trapkiller ACF is a pretty obvious choice, as it gives you an our of combat utility feature. Lion Totem's Pounce is another such feature, but might be redundant with Wildshape, so you might want to keep your Fast Movement (or trade it for another option).

Now let's manifest the Wolf Totem (and give up our damage reduction), getting Track and a bonus to survival (helps Trapkiller as well), for some more out of combat usefulness. At this point you're only left with Uncanny Dodge and maybe Fast Movement... and Illiteracy, of course. There's a bunch of ACFs these can be traded for, such as View Spirit World and Awesome Charge.

And if you manage to get your DM drunk, ask him nicely to give you back Rage, at least in some limited form, such as Berserker Strength... and buy him some more drinks.


Can you do that? I feel like choosing a Ranger ACF when you're not a Ranger is kind of against the rules for ACFs.


ACF chaining - The belief that getting a feature from another class allows you to trade if for that class' ACF. Many UA ACFs trade class features between classes. We don't have an official church... yet :smallbiggrin:

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Well, folks, it's time to set up an official church. Let's dive into whether or not ACF chaining is actually legal.





"These variants simply swap one or more of that class’s features for one or more class features of another class. A class feature gained works just as it did for its original class, including the level at which it is gained and any other effects, except as noted below."


Unearthed Arcana, page 58






"Alternative class features replace class features of the original class description, changing its very nature. You can find more alternative class features in Player's Handbook II, Unearthed Arcana, Complete Mage, and other D&D supplements. The format for alternative class features is as follows.

ALTERNATIVE CLASS FEATURE NAME
This section provides a general description of the alternative class feature, including some roleplaying suggestions for each variant of the standard class.
Level: You can select the alternative class feature only at the indicated level.
Replaces: This line identifies the ability you must sacrifice to gain the alternative class feature.
Benefit: This section describes the mechanical effects of the alternative class feature."


Complete Champion, pages 45-46






"ALTERNATIVE CLASS FEATURE NAME
A general description of the ability and why you should consider it.
Class: The class or classes that can select this class feature.
Level: The alternative class feature can be selected only
at this level. In some cases, different levels might be given for different classes.
Special Requirement: Any special requirements that you must meet before selecting the alternative class feature. Many of the alternative class features described here require 1 or more ranks of a Knowledge skill. Since skill ranks are purchased before class features are selected (PH 58-59), you can meet this requirement at the same level that you gain the alternative class feature.
Replaces: The ability that you must sacrifice to gain the alternative class feature.
Benefit: The mechanical effects of the new ability."


Complete Mage, page 32






"ALTERNATIVE CLASS FEATURE NAME
A general description of the ability and why you might want to consider it.
Level: You can select the alternative class feature only at this level (unless you are using the retraining option described in Chapter 8).
Replaces: This line identifies the ability that you must sacrifice to gain the alternative class feature.
Benefit: This section describes the mechanical effects of the new ability."


Player's Handbook II, page 31


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By strict RAW, only the Complete Mage ACFs require you to be of a certain class in order to take an ACF; the others simply require you to have the ability which you must trade away in order to gain the benefits of another. Note that the classes in Unearthed Arcana prior to page 58 are variants, not ACFs. Page 58 and beyond are not as limited as the preceding pages.

This opens up builds like Wild Shape Barbarian (trading away Rage and its upgrades for Favored Enemy and Ranger's Combat Style and its upgrades, then trading away the Combat Style for Wild Shape and Fast Movement- you have Fast Movement twice now so you can trade one away for Pounce).

Is this what the game's designers intended? I highly doubt it. Would any DM let you do this? Maybe, if you're just trying to have some fun and not break the game.

So then, any thoughts on how silly this whole idea is and what combinations you could use with it?

[Troacctid]

Yeah, no, that's not correct. You have to be a member of the appropriate class in order to take the ACF unless it says otherwise.

[SirNibbles]

Yeah, no, that's not correct. You have to be a member of the appropriate class in order to take the ACF unless it says otherwise.

Where does it say that?

[Palanan]

PHB 2, p. 31:


"Alternative class features replace class features found in the original class description. If you have already reached or passed the level at which you can take the feature, you can use the retraining option described on page 192 to gain an alternative class feature in place of the normal feature gained at that level."

This presumes you're taking levels in a given class in order to access the ACFs available at specific levels for that class. Everything in Chapter Two pertaining to ACFs follows this assumption.

[SirNibbles]

PHB 2, p. 31:


"Alternative class features replace class features found in the original class description. If you have already reached or passed the level at which you can take the feature, you can use the retraining option described on page 192 to gain an alternative class feature in place of the normal feature gained at that level."

This presumes you're taking levels in a given class in order to access the ACFs available at specific levels for that class. Everything in Chapter Two pertaining to ACFs follows this assumption.

Replace class features found in the original class description.





"These variants simply swap one or more of that class’s features for one or more class features of another class. A class feature gained works just as it did for its original class, including the level at which it is gained and any other effects, except as noted below."


Unearthed Arcana, page 58


Class feature gained works just as it did for its original class, including the level at which it is gained and any other effects. So if it works exactly as it did for the original class, you should be able to exchange it, just as the original class could. You have the ability to be exchanged at the correct level, the only two prerequisites listed in all the sources except Complete Mage. Yes, the rules are almost certainly intended to restrict you to the actual class, but the goal here isn't to determine RAI, but RAW.

[ciopo]

Replace class features found in the original class description.





"These variants simply swap one or more of that class’s features for one or more class features of another class. A class feature gained works just as it did for its original class, including the level at which it is gained and any other effects, except as noted below."


Unearthed Arcana, page 58


Class feature gained works just as it did for its original class, including the level at which it is gained and any other effects. So if it works exactly as it did for the original class, you should be able to exchange it, just as the original class could. You have the ability to be exchanged at the correct level, the only two prerequisites listed in all the sources except Complete Mage. Yes, the rules are almost certainly intended to restrict you to the actual class, but the goal here isn't to determine RAI, but RAW.

I would say UA page 58 itself, since it make separate paragraphs for each base class, read as is it's only the barbarian that can lose rage to gain favored enemy, because they are "packaged" so to say.

These variants simply swap one or more of that class’s features
for one or more class features of another class. A class feature
gained works just as it did for its original class, including the
level at which it is gained and any other effects, except as
noted below.
Barbarian
A barbarian who prefers crafty hunting over pure ferocity
might choose to exchange his rage ability for certain ranger
class features.
Gain: Favored enemy (as ranger); archery combat style, improved archery combat style, and archery combat style mastery
(as ranger).
Lose: Rage, greater rage, indomitable will, tireless rage,
mighty rage.

This implies rather strongly that only the barbarian can do this switch, and if I felt like being even more nitpicky, the archery combat style chain that the barbarian gains is not the [generic] combat style that the ranger is allowed to trade out.

That said, I think I vaguely remember a table somewhere MAYBE in the srd or pfsrd that was something along the lines of "you may want to make your own customized base class to fit your concept that is a mix of features from the classic classes, use this table for equivalencies", it might have been in the DMG, I really don't remember, sorry :(