Why the hate on hexblade?

[Lupine]

In the thread about what people would nerf and ban, the number one choice was hexblade, and I don't understand why. Do people just hate the armor profs?

[KOLE]

It gives one of the best cantrips in the game, medium armor, shield prof, and melee SADness in a single level. That's insanely good on damn near anybody, and so many classes use charisma that it's a tempting dip for Paladins, Sorcerers, and even Bards. It's just too damn much in a single level.

[Segev]

I hate the fluff, because it’s stupid, and the crunch, because it’s patching somehh th OMG by consuming the mist interesting part of the Warlock to make Pact of the Blade a require a patron to be “good enough.”

[LudicSavant]

In the thread about what people would nerf and ban, the number one choice was hexblade, and I don't understand why. Do people just hate the armor profs?

Bad fluff, bad design, and bad power creep.

The Hexblade almost seems like it was designed from the ground up to give you everything you could possibly want in a 1-level dip. Hexblade's Curse scales with Proficiency, rather than Warlock level. Hex Warrior makes you SAD from level 1. Medium Armor + shield + the Shield spell is fantastic in its own right, and the Shield spell is actually better for people who are getting non-Warlock spell slots! Some other Warlock spells are also great to grab from a dip (like Hex on a Fighter, for example. Or Armor of Agathys in general).

It's not even just Cha-based classes that it's tempting for, there are powerful Hexblade-dipping builds for Fighters, Wizards, etc. Which means you see it all over the place and people get sick of it.

[Trask]

Its a subclass that was clearly just created to patch a hole, rather than actually fixing that hole, and it does it in the worst possible way, by making a 1 level dip give you more power than most capstones. Its a dip so good for Charisma classes that its almost necessary for optimization, and on top of that, it has HORRIBLE fluff that barely justifies its existence at all.

WotC could have just easily made adding Cha to hit and damage and medium armor and shield prof a level gated invocations (say 5th level perhaps) and it would have been fine. But I guess that requires more attention to their own game and how it works than the absolute bare minimum.

[Lupine]

I hate the fluff, because it’s stupid, and the crunch, because it’s patching somehh th OMG by consuming the mist interesting part of the Warlock to make Pact of the Blade a require a patron to be “good enough.”

Ok, the fluff, I understand. I was trying to work with a player to make good back story, and it was a pain in the butt.

The crunch just seems cool to me. Maybe its because my party's hexblade doesn't try to optimize or make ideal choices in combat, but it hasn't seemed op to me so far.

[Greywander]

I can't help but feel like at least some parts of the hexblade (such as using CHA for attack and damage rolls for weapons) should have been part of the blade pact instead. That would have solved most of the issues people had with it. You'd need at least a 3 level dip to gain the benefits, rather than a 1 level dip. Hexblade appears to be an obvious extension of the blade pact; there's not much incentive to go blade pact with other patrons, and while hexblades can do fine with other pacts they get the most out of the blade pact.

Personally, I could see reworking the blade pact to included using CHA for weapons and giving medium armor and shields, and reworking the hexblade patron to not give these benefits but to work well with either martial or caster playstyles. A hexblade blade pact would feel about like what a hexblade blade pact does now, but there'd be a big difference if you go blade pact with a different patron or hexblade with a different pact.

One argument against this would be that a hexblade blade pact would have to wait until 3rd level to use their weapons effectively.

[clash]

Because people don't like getting what they ask for unless it's exactly what they ask for.

People wanted a way to be an effective blade lock without increasing the invocation tax that it requires to be effective.

Wotc provided a method that would do that but as a warlock it meant giving up your other subclass features to be devoted to a blade which messes with their theme of warlock but fulfills the requirements so honestly I've never understood the issue personally. Sure it helps bards gish for an single level dip but they lose spellcasting progression and gish aren't that strong anyways. The only thing it is too good for its really a paladin dip.

[LudicSavant]

There are a bunch of mechanics in Hexblade that have little reason to be there, except to make it much stronger for dipping.

For example, the Shield spell won't see a ton of use if you're an actual straight Warlock because as good as the spell is, it's not often gonna be worth it to spend a 5th level slot on it. But if you're dipping for it, it retains full value. For another example, Hexblade's Curse scales with proficiency instead of class level, unlike most abilities in the game.

[Man_Over_Game]

The crunch just seems cool to me. Maybe its because my party's hexblade doesn't try to optimize or make ideal choices in combat, but it hasn't seemed op to me so far.
I don't think it's overpowered. It's just lazy and bland, and encourages laziness and blandess.

Compare it to the rest of the Warlock options.

The Hexblade mechanics basically boil down to:

You kill enemies better.
You don't get hit as often.
You should kill bad guys.

That's it in a nutshell. Compare that to things like occasionally twisting luck you borrow from hell, or being able to charm a group of encroaching badguys with fae trickery before teleporting away.

Everyone wants to kill things and everyone wants to avoid getting killed. It might as well be called "Good Adventurer". This is the "Good Adventurer" subclass that makes you into a "Good Adventurer".



Consider all of the damage builds we used to have for Warlocks before the Hexblade. They had a great level of diversity and power levels. Now that Hexblade is included, there's nothing in the Warlock options that can compete for that niche, making the rest of the subclass feel a lot more bland in comparison.

So I just adjust it to a curse-based patron and then just give all the attack-based benefits to Pact of the Blade. So now you can be a curse-based summoner, or you can be a weapon-based demon lord, and everything in-between. Everyone wins.

[Chaos Jackal]

As others have said, it's patchwork. Pact of the Blade was a cool, but objectively subpar choice for warlocks. So instead of fixing Pact of the Blade they created something new with what the Pact should've had in the first place and more. First transgression, "fixing" an issue by basically covering it up.

Also, the fluff is basically non-existent. It's obscure and vague and amounts to essentially nothing. And I say that as someone who was initially thrilled to hear of such a concept. I've played and am currently playing a straight hexblade too, with no multiclassing intentions. I thought Elric and Stormbringer kind of stuff. Instead, what we got is "Some entity that's probably specific but might not be who you think grants power through weapons. It has no agenda, no tangible means of interaction or purpose." (also, the specter raising is just... odd). I mean, wasn't that Pact of the Blade in the first place? All patrons can channel power through weapons... I have reflavored my hexblade with the DM's permission and aid because, as is, it's basically patronless. Second transgression, a crunch-only addition.

And then there's the issue of power. A straight hexblade is actually not overwhelmingly powerful. They're capable combatants with decent utility since they are still spellcasters, and they definitely won't feel unsatisfying or weak to play, but they generally won't feel out of order either. Most of their features are, in fact, pretty tame (that odd specter being one of the biggest examples of an ability that becomes useless with time or might just never be used in some campaigns).

The problem arising here is twofold. First, due to them being a Pact of the Blade fix that exists outside Pact of the Blade, they're pretty much the only option if you wanna play a competent weapon warlock because, while hexblade isn't extremely strong, it's still vastly superior to any other weapon warlock option. In addition to this, hexblade is just good with any Pact. Thanks to the power and scaling of Eldritch Blast, you can get by without ever swinging a sword; you'll be the best warlock by damage. Sure, you're not as versatile in some areas, but you are plenty stronger and more durable. Pure power isn't off the charts, but relative power is.

The second part is that essentially more than half the archetype's power comes at lv1. For a reasonably strong archetype, that's a lot of power in one level. Which means that, while full hexblades won't be the be-all, end-all, dipping into hexblade gives way too much for way too little. Accessing the bulk of a class'/archetype's power usually takes between two and five levels. For hexblade it only takes one, and it arguably gives more than many three-level dips, because on top of the already good archetype features you can grab the best damaging cantrip in the game as well as two excellent defensive spells.

Third transgression, terrible distribution of power.

Weapon warlocks are a great concept. Hexblade, unfortunately, isn't a good implementation of that concept.

[47Ace]

Besides the problem with being a really good dip there is also the fact that it was the first mental stat to attack and damage with few strings attached ability in the game which bypasses the elven accuracy restriction on strength attack that appears to exist to stop it from working with GWM.

[Chaosmancer]

I think it is mainly the SADness and dipping that ruffles feathers. Without that they wouldn't show up as often and people wouldn't be as annoyed with them.

[Sorinth]

It's mostly because of how good it is as a one level dip.

There's nothing wrong or overpowered with the class itself if you simply stick to Hexblade and don't multiclass out.

[Segev]

Ok, the fluff, I understand. I was trying to work with a player to make good back story, and it was a pain in the butt.

The crunch just seems cool to me. Maybe its because my party's hexblade doesn't try to optimize or make ideal choices in combat, but it hasn't seemed op to me so far.
I don’t find it OP. I find it annoying that it cuts off the Patron for powers that are best placed elsewhere. I’m on my phone, or I’d link the fix I proposed in Homebrew a while back. But Pact of the Blade Warlocks just needed something to tide them over their first three levels, and some options to increase their power overall.

It should come from their more generic resources: Spell and invocation choices. Patrons should be interesting, not a bug patch.

[ad_hoc]

It is by far the strongest patron for all types of Warlocks.

Most patrons give minor benefits.

There is no actual need to play a melee focused Warlock with Hexblade.

[jas61292]

While others have mentioned that it exists almost entirely as a patch to other mechanics, in my opinion, the far bigger crime is that it is a patch to an issue that never existed in the first place. Warlocks are casters, plain and simple. If they really want to, they can choose an option that makes them competent with a weapon, but in reality, even for blade pact Warlocks, they are still casters, first and foremost. They are not melee masters. Yet for some reason that was considered an issue. They already were arguably nearly as good at actual melee combat as a Valor Bard (thanks to getting Cha to damage later on), and that is an actual subclass dedicated to it. But that was not enough.

In the end, the Hexblade a massively overpowered correction to a problem that didn't exist. It is obscene for multiclassing, has mechanics that have been intentionally avoided by everything else in the game so far, and its lore and flavor stuff is arguably even worse.

[Yakmala]

I have no problem with Hexblades on their own.

But in the years since XGtE's release, I have met exactly one single-class medium to high level Hexblade at a table and an uncountable number of 1-3 level Hexblade dips, with more than half of those being a single level of Hexblade.

This is the problem. The Hexblade is front-loaded like no other subclass in the game.

If you are playing any other subclass that relies on Charisma, you will almost certainly benefit from a level in Hexblade. And if you know that your campaign is unlikely to get to Level 20, and you don't care about the story/roleplaying implications, there's very little reason not to take a 1-2 level dip into Hexblade.

[Sorinth]

While others have mentioned that it exists almost entirely as a patch to other mechanics, in my opinion, the far bigger crime is that it is a patch to an issue that never existed in the first place. Warlocks are casters, plain and simple. If they really want to, they can choose an option that makes them competent with a weapon, but in reality, even for blade pact Warlocks, they are still casters, first and foremost. They are not melee masters. Yet for some reason that was considered an issue. They already were arguably nearly as good at actual melee combat as a Valor Bard (thanks to getting Cha to damage later on), and that is an actual subclass dedicated to it. But that was not enough.

In the end, the Hexblade a massively overpowered correction to a problem that didn't exist. It is obscene for multiclassing, has mechanics that have been intentionally avoided by everything else in the game so far, and its lore and flavor stuff is arguably even worse.

Are you saying a straight Hexblade is overpowered because they are a full caster with good melee capabilities and if so what do you think of Bladesinger or any cleric that gets Heavy Armor? It's not like Hexblade is the only class out there that is a full caster that can be near the front line.

[Tanarii]

In the end, the Hexblade a massively overpowered correction to a problem that didn't exist.
This sums it up nicely.

[ad_hoc]

While others have mentioned that it exists almost entirely as a patch to other mechanics, in my opinion, the far bigger crime is that it is a patch to an issue that never existed in the first place. Warlocks are casters, plain and simple. If they really want to, they can choose an option that makes them competent with a weapon, but in reality, even for blade pact Warlocks, they are still casters, first and foremost. They are not melee masters. Yet for some reason that was considered an issue. They already were arguably nearly as good at actual melee combat as a Valor Bard (thanks to getting Cha to damage later on), and that is an actual subclass dedicated to it. But that was not enough.

In the end, the Hexblade a massively overpowered correction to a problem that didn't exist. It is obscene for multiclassing, has mechanics that have been intentionally avoided by everything else in the game so far, and its lore and flavor stuff is arguably even worse.

Well put.
..

[KOLE]

Are you saying a straight Hexblade is overpowered because they are a full caster with good melee capabilities and if so what do you think of Bladesinger or any cleric that gets Heavy Armor? It's not like Hexblade is the only class out there that is a full caster that can be near the front line.

Bladesinger doesn't really have good melee capabilities. Even with Extra Attack, they're better off casting or slinging cantrips. Heavy Armor clerics don't have an Arcane spell list. They also aren't near as good at melee as they are at casting. And they don't have an option to be SAD like a Hexblade.

[Zetakya]

In addition to all the other commnts here, I don't like it because it has removed the ability of later supplement/updates/UA to present effective fixes to Pact of the Blade itself that would make e.g. a Celestial Bladelock workable.

So it's boringly bad itself, and it stops other fixes being implemented easily (in a RAW sense, anyway).

[Keravath]

Peronally, I don't have any real issues with hexblades. I don't think they are particularly overpowered compared to other classes.

Comparing a hexblade to a rogue ... extra skill, light armor, various weapons, expertise, cunning action and a very useful archetype are earned from a 1,2,3 level dip. These are great. Is Hexblade that much better? (I'll agree that for some builds it is much better ... it can make some paladins SAD using charisma for to hit and damage ... it can bolster bards and sorcerers at the expense of setting their main spells back by two levels (One level dip on bard or sorcerer doesn't get them much except medium armor and shields ... and shield spell for a bard)).

For some of the charisma caster classes a three level dip in hexblade isn't worth the loss of level 18 abilities.

I have a level 15 (lore bard 13/hexblade 2) and I haven't regretted taking two levels of hexblade but when I play in a group with a level 15 bard, they have their level 8 spells and I don't. Worth the trade? I think so but others don't.

On the other hand, I have a level 11 character (10 hexblade/1 shadow sorcerer) melee PAM/GWM/resilient con ... charisma is still 16 :) ... but I find them fun to play. In the right circumstances they do quite a bit of damage though not as much as a Xbow Expert/SS ... and they have to wade into melee which entails higher risk.

In any of these cases, the characters are neither OP or out of line with any of the other characters at the table.

So, I guess opinions and experience varies.

---

However, I will agree the the "lore" or fluff associated with the hexblade could have used a lot more work and it would probably have been better implemented as a revision of the pact of the blade rather than the introduction of a combat focused patron.

[Luccan]

I just don't like that instead of making Blade Pact better they patched it over with a subclass. I don't actually dislike the fluff, intelligent weapons have been a thing in D&D for a long time, and while the Cha to attack is a little much I don't think it's totally game breaking. It's very strong for level 1, but I don't think it's completely superior to every other subclass in every way.

[Man_Over_Game]

I just don't like that instead of making Blade Pact better they patched it over with a subclass. I don't actually dislike the fluff, intelligent weapons have been a thing in D&D for a long time, and while the Cha to attack is a little much I don't think it's totally game breaking. It's very strong for level 1, but I don't think it's completely superior to every other subclass in every way.

It's not. It's just in attacking, and that it provides all of its mechanical changes in the first level, and those changes have a big impact.

That is, it's not overly powerful, but it does change a lot.

Compare that against the Fiendlock or the Archfey, or...virtually every other Patron. They have a theme, while the Hexblade has a level 1 mechanic. See the difference?

[Sorinth]

Bladesinger doesn't really have good melee capabilities. Even with Extra Attack, they're better off casting or slinging cantrips. Heavy Armor clerics don't have an Arcane spell list. They also aren't near as good at melee as they are at casting. And they don't have an option to be SAD like a Hexblade.

I'm not saying your wrong that it's better off to use spells/cantrips but the argument seemed to be that Hexblade is OP because they are a full caster that can be in on the front line. Many class can do that.

Yes Hexblade is SAD, but that doesn't automatically make them over powered.

[Sorinth]

I just don't like that instead of making Blade Pact better they patched it over with a subclass. I don't actually dislike the fluff, intelligent weapons have been a thing in D&D for a long time, and while the Cha to attack is a little much I don't think it's totally game breaking. It's very strong for level 1, but I don't think it's completely superior to every other subclass in every way.

They don't really have a choice if they want to "fix" things. People have bought the books, if they start errata-ing things constantly to improve balance then it makes buying the books pointless.

[Greywander]

They don't really have a choice if they want to "fix" things. People have bought the books, if they start errata-ing things constantly to improve balance then it makes buying the books pointless.
There was a UA not that long ago that did basically this, though. Class Variants, I believe. It did things like adding some new fighting styles, allowing you to pick alternative class features, allowing most casters to switch out cantrips at a level up or long rest, added spells to their spell list, etc. Now, it's only UA, but if such a thing ever did make it into print, it wouldn't be that different in execution to patching the blade pact. Heck, XGtE could have included an alternate or expanded blade pact.

[Sorinth]

There was a UA not that long ago that did basically this, though. Class Variants, I believe. It did things like adding some new fighting styles, allowing you to pick alternative class features, allowing most casters to switch out cantrips at a level up or long rest, added spells to their spell list, etc. Now, it's only UA, but if such a thing ever did make it into print, it wouldn't be that different in execution to patching the blade pact. Heck, XGtE could have included an alternate or expanded blade pact.

It's not likely to make it out of UA for the same reasons Revised Ranger never did.

As much as Hexblade is seen as the "fix" for Pact of the Blade, the truth is you can make a fun and effective Hexblade that isn't Pact of the Blade.

[Luccan]

It's not likely to make it out of UA for the same reasons Revised Ranger never did.

As much as Hexblade is seen as the "fix" for Pact of the Blade, the truth is you can make a fun and effective Hexblade that isn't Pact of the Blade.

Yes, but that has nothing to do with the point that rather than fix the actual issue, they patched it with a subclass. They've errata'd a few other subclasses as well, most notably taking the beastmasters companion from a brainless machine to a brainless machine that dodges when not given orders and gets magic weapons.

[Christew]

Bad fluff, bad design, and bad power creep.

The Hexblade almost seems like it was designed from the ground up to give you everything you could possibly want in a 1-level dip. Hexblade's Curse scales with Proficiency, rather than Warlock level. Hex Warrior makes you SAD from level 1. Medium Armor + shield + the Shield spell is fantastic in its own right, and the Shield spell is actually better for people who are getting non-Warlock spell slots! Some other Warlock spells are also great to grab from a dip (like Hex on a Fighter, for example. Or Armor of Agathys in general).

It's not even just Cha-based classes that it's tempting for, there are powerful Hexblade-dipping builds for Fighters, Wizards, etc. Which means you see it all over the place and people get sick of it.
This. When designing characters, I often find myself trying to talk myself out of a 1 Hexblade dip. I am personally not a fan of the class, but I took it on my most recent Swashbuckler character because it was far and away the most cost efficient way to get booming blade, medium armor, shield proficiency, and synergized with the CHA abilities of the Swashbuckler. I'm not against a blade wielding warlock, but it should be paywalled behind the pact. At level one it is simply to versatile in its applicability.


Peronally, I don't have any real issues with hexblades. I don't think they are particularly overpowered compared to other classes.

Comparing a hexblade to a rogue ... extra skill, light armor, various weapons, expertise, cunning action and a very useful archetype are earned from a 1,2,3 level dip. These are great. Is Hexblade that much better? (I'll agree that for some builds it is much better ... it can make some paladins SAD using charisma for to hit and damage ... it can bolster bards and sorcerers at the expense of setting their main spells back by two levels (One level dip on bard or sorcerer doesn't get them much except medium armor and shields ... and shield spell for a bard)).

For some of the charisma caster classes a three level dip in hexblade isn't worth the loss of level 18 abilities.

I have a level 15 (lore bard 13/hexblade 2) and I haven't regretted taking two levels of hexblade but when I play in a group with a level 15 bard, they have their level 8 spells and I don't. Worth the trade? I think so but others don't.

On the other hand, I have a level 11 character (10 hexblade/1 shadow sorcerer) melee PAM/GWM/resilient con ... charisma is still 16 :) ... but I find them fun to play. In the right circumstances they do quite a bit of damage though not as much as a Xbow Expert/SS ... and they have to wade into melee which entails higher risk.

In any of these cases, the characters are neither OP or out of line with any of the other characters at the table.

So, I guess opinions and experience varies.

---

However, I will agree the the "lore" or fluff associated with the hexblade could have used a lot more work and it would probably have been better implemented as a revision of the pact of the blade rather than the introduction of a combat focused patron.
YMMV of course, but Hexblade hate comes mostly from level one goodies. Three or even two level dips require a significant trade-off (abilities, spell slots, spell levels, ASIs, etc), but a one level dip is pretty easy to rationalize from a cost/benefit perspective. The benefits of Hexblade 1 are crazy good for only slowing your main class progression by one level.

[ad_hoc]

I'm not saying your wrong that it's better off to use spells/cantrips but the argument seemed to be that Hexblade is OP because they are a full caster that can be in on the front line. Many class can do that.

Yes Hexblade is SAD, but that doesn't automatically make them over powered.

Is that the argument?

They're overpowered because they are far stronger than every other patron for every type of Warlock.

Archfey - 1/short rest 1 round close range fear
Great Old One - one way short range telepathy
Fiend - Temp HP on reducing creature to 0

Hexblade - 1 short/rest Bonus Action Hex - + Prof Damage, 19-20 Crit and recover HP on 0

Upgrade Light Armour to Medium Armour and Shields

There is also a bit in there about using Charisma for weapons. If you remove that part entirely then the Hexblade is still very overpowered. Every Warlock gets a huge power increase from having Medium Armour and Shields proficiency. The Hexblade's Curse alone is better than the other 1st level patron abilities. If it was just that then it would be close enough to be balanced.

The proficiencies are over the top.

Studded Leather + 14 Dex = 14 AC
Breastplate + Shield + 14 Dex = 18 AC
Half Plate + Shield + 14 Dex = 19 AC

A permanent Shield spell is pretty darn good. Just looking at combat power every Warlock should be a Hexblade. AINEC.

[jas61292]

Are you saying a straight Hexblade is overpowered because they are a full caster with good melee capabilities and if so what do you think of Bladesinger or any cleric that gets Heavy Armor? It's not like Hexblade is the only class out there that is a full caster that can be near the front line.

I'm not necessarily saying that straight Hexblade is completely and totally broken compared to all other classes in the game. But I am saying that, yes, a full caster should not have full martial ability as well. Being competent enough with a weapon to not be totally scared of melee is not the same thing as being a full martial attacker.

Bladesinger has great AC and is less afraid of losing concentration, but their at offensive capability with a weapon is lacking, and they still have to deal with having a wizard's hit die. They get an extra attack, but their attack bonus is still based on a secondary stat, and damage is still limited to 1d8+Dex per hit until level 14. They, like a non-Hexblade Pact of the Blade Warlock, are not incompetent in melee. But ultimately, it is a backup option for them. They are a caster, first and foremost, and are almost always going to want to be as far away from combat as the range of their cantrips will allow.

Clerics with Heavy Armor are happy to wade into melee, but that is largely because they are defensively sturdy. They only have a single attack (bar the very limited extra attacks of War Domain) and while it gets some bonuses, it once again is being based off a secondary stat. Ultimately, the reason cleric want to be up in the action is largely for things like Spiritual Weapon and Spirit Guardians. And those, of course, are spells, which is what the power of a full caster should come from.

As one more example, the Valor Bard gets weapons, armor, shields and an extra attack, on top of the base classes full casting. But as with the others, they have to use Strength or Dex, a secondary stat, get no special offensive bonus, and their only other special ability that actually involves martial combat is the ability to make one attack when they cast a spell.

In all of these cases, the martial ability provided to the caster is there to help them not freak out if an enemy runs up to them, or in some cases, allows them to save some spells when confronted with basic mook enemies. Their combat ability is not largely any better than cantrips, but just gives them versitility.

The Hexblade is completely different. Most obviously it is literally the only class in the entire game that gets to use their casting stat for melee attacks all day every day. One of the drawbacks of all of these other mentioned classes is that they have to use a secondary stat for combat, meaning either they have a lower attack roll, or lower spell saves. Hexblades get it all in one. The only other thing that comes close to this in the entire game is Shillelagh, but that's only available to Druids and Tome Warlocks, neither of whom have extra attack. Anything else that does something like this used a limited resource.

This by itself already makes them better martial combatants than any of the others, but they get better armor, shields and a non-spell damage boosting feature on top of that. Which also does other stuff too. Oh, and all that is at level one. They still have an entire subclass worth of other features yet to come. Again, their melee package at level 1 nearly as powerful that the melee package that those other classes get across all 20 levels. Its insane.

In short:

All other "martial" caster (sub)classes: Get an AC boost relative to other casters, and maybe some slight damage buff at later levels. Might get extra attack too. But you have to use your secondary stat for attacks.

Hexblades: get all of that stuff and use your casting stat for attacks, all at level one. And still get other stuff later.

[Misterwhisper]

It was created to “solve” the issue that blade pact warlocks suck.

However all they did was take the by far most dipped class, and give everyone even more reason to just take a level or 2 and leave.

It is by far the best for a weapon based warlock, but it is also by far the best for a blasting warlock.

Stand back, enjoy your free armor and shield bonuses and when you need it your 19-20 crit range.

Go ahead and be either tome or chain, you get to attack with charisma just like a tome that took shillelagh, and at 6 you get a a amazing pet that can go through walls like a half chain anyway.

Blast all you want, you have amazing ac, and if they get close just smack them with a GFB based on your main stat.

The fluff is lame and sounds like a bad plot line from a kids videogame.

The mechanics are so far and above every other patron it is insulting.

Since it came out I have only seen one warlock that has not bee. A hexblade, it was a celestial warlock and worked really well too.

Also, every single paladin I have seen sense has had at least one level maybe 2.

[Sorinth]

I'm not necessarily saying that straight Hexblade is completely and totally broken compared to all other classes in the game. But I am saying that, yes, a full caster should not have full martial ability as well. Being competent enough with a weapon to not be totally scared of melee is not the same thing as being a full martial attacker.

Bladesinger has great AC and is less afraid of losing concentration, but their at offensive capability with a weapon is lacking, and they still have to deal with having a wizard's hit die. They get an extra attack, but their attack bonus is still based on a secondary stat, and damage is still limited to 1d8+Dex per hit until level 14. They, like a non-Hexblade Pact of the Blade Warlock, are not incompetent in melee. But ultimately, it is a backup option for them. They are a caster, first and foremost, and are almost always going to want to be as far away from combat as the range of their cantrips will allow.

Clerics with Heavy Armor are happy to wade into melee, but that is largely because they are defensively sturdy. They only have a single attack (bar the very limited extra attacks of War Domain) and while it gets some bonuses, it once again is being based off a secondary stat. Ultimately, the reason cleric want to be up in the action is largely for things like Spiritual Weapon and Spirit Guardians. And those, of course, are spells, which is what the power of a full caster should come from.

As one more example, the Valor Bard gets weapons, armor, shields and an extra attack, on top of the base classes full casting. But as with the others, they have to use Strength or Dex, a secondary stat, get no special offensive bonus, and their only other special ability that actually involves martial combat is the ability to make one attack when they cast a spell.

In all of these cases, the martial ability provided to the caster is there to help them not freak out if an enemy runs up to them, or in some cases, allows them to save some spells when confronted with basic mook enemies. Their combat ability is not largely any better than cantrips, but just gives them versitility.

The Hexblade is completely different. Most obviously it is literally the only class in the entire game that gets to use their casting stat for melee attacks all day every day. One of the drawbacks of all of these other mentioned classes is that they have to use a secondary stat for combat, meaning either they have a lower attack roll, or lower spell saves. Hexblades get it all in one. The only other thing that comes close to this in the entire game is Shillelagh, but that's only available to Druids and Tome Warlocks, neither of whom have extra attack. Anything else that does something like this used a limited resource.

This by itself already makes them better martial combatants than any of the others, but they get better armor, shields and a non-spell damage boosting feature on top of that. Which also does other stuff too. Oh, and all that is at level one. They still have an entire subclass worth of other features yet to come. Again, their melee package at level 1 nearly as powerful that the melee package that those other classes get across all 20 levels. Its insane.

In short:

All other "martial" caster (sub)classes: Get an AC boost relative to other casters, and maybe some slight damage buff at later levels. Might get extra attack too. But you have to use your secondary stat for attacks.

Hexblades: get all of that stuff and use your casting stat for attacks, all at level one. And still get other stuff later.

The problem with that analysis is that spell casting is better then attacking to begin with. So even though those other classes might not have as good of an attack ability (Which is marginal better at best), it's meaningless because casting a spell is still going to be better then taking the Attack action. And considering those other classes can tank as good if not better then the Hexblade it's hard to buy the argument that Hexblade is overpowered considering the other full caster classes have better AC and can tank just as good if not better while also having a ton of spells to use which are better then taking the Attack action.

The reason Hexblade is a better "martial" character is the same reason that Eldritch Blast is better then other offensive cantrips, the Warlock has limited spells and so will often end up having to use non-resource abilities. As a full caster the Warlock falls far behind other full casters in spell power, so balance wise they need to be better "martial" characters then the other full casters.

The real problem with Hexblade is that it's so front loaded that it makes dipping too optimized. But full Hexblade is not in anyway overpowered compared to other classes, nor is it overpowered compared to any other full warlock who just spams Eldritch Blast.

[Sorinth]

Is that the argument?

They're overpowered because they are far stronger than every other patron for every type of Warlock.

Archfey - 1/short rest 1 round close range fear
Great Old One - one way short range telepathy
Fiend - Temp HP on reducing creature to 0

Hexblade - 1 short/rest Bonus Action Hex - + Prof Damage, 19-20 Crit and recover HP on 0

Upgrade Light Armour to Medium Armour and Shields

There is also a bit in there about using Charisma for weapons. If you remove that part entirely then the Hexblade is still very overpowered. Every Warlock gets a huge power increase from having Medium Armour and Shields proficiency. The Hexblade's Curse alone is better than the other 1st level patron abilities. If it was just that then it would be close enough to be balanced.

The proficiencies are over the top.

Studded Leather + 14 Dex = 14 AC
Breastplate + Shield + 14 Dex = 18 AC
Half Plate + Shield + 14 Dex = 19 AC

A permanent Shield spell is pretty darn good. Just looking at combat power every Warlock should be a Hexblade. AINEC.

There is more to the Patron besides 1st level abilities. Hexblade is without a doubt the most front loaded of all the Patrons, but claiming Hexblade is so much better then the other Patrons AINEC is just not true. If Medium Armor and Shield were that amazing then why wasn't Mountain Dwarf considered the most OP race?

[Christew]

The Hexblade is completely different. Most obviously it is literally the only class in the entire game that gets to use their casting stat for melee attacks all day every day.
I am very much on your side, but to be fair we now have the published Artificer: Battle Smith that gets to use Intelligence for attack and damage with a magic weapon (which they will always have thanks to 2nd level infusions). All day every day, but very importantly paywalled behind a 3rd level subclass (IMHO as it should be) making it a much less attractive dip.

[Misterwhisper]

There is more to the Patron besides 1st level abilities. Hexblade is without a doubt the most front loaded of all the Patrons, but claiming Hexblade is so much better then the other Patrons AINEC is just not true. If Medium Armor and Shield were that amazing then why wasn't Mountain Dwarf considered the most OP race?

Because the classes they are best for already have them and they don’t get shields.

Hexblade is miles ahead of other subclasses.

[jas61292]

I am very much on your side, but to be fair we now have the published Artificer: Battle Smith that gets to use Intelligence for attack and damage with a magic weapon (which they will always have thanks to 2nd level infusions). All day every day, but very importantly paywalled behind a 3rd level subclass (IMHO as it should be) making it a much less attractive dip.

Ah yes. My mistake. I forgot about that one. But yes, as you mentioned, it is behind a level 3 subclass, which significantly limits its abusability. Additionally, Artificer is not a full caster, which also means being good in that respect is not as big an issue.

[NorthernPhoenix]

The straight Hexblade is plenty powerful, but not overwhelmingly so, and while I hate the official lore, it's an easy fix.

Hexblade dips or multiclasses are infuriating on multiple levels and I don't ever allow them.

[Theodoxus]

I incorporated most of the fixes enumerated in this thread.

My Warlocks are based on the 4th Edition cosmology:

Celestial - The Astral Sea
Fiend - The Elemental Chaos
Archfey - the Feywild
Great Old One - The Far Realm
Undying - The Shadowfell

I changed Pact of the Blade as follows:
Pact of the BladeYou gain proficiency in medium armor and shields, also you can use your action to create a pact weapon in your empty hand. You can choose the form that this melee weapon takes each time you create it. You are proficient with it while you wield it. This weapon counts as magical for the purpose of overcoming resistance and immunity lo nonmagical attacks and damage. You also use your Charisma modifier for attack and damage rolls instead of Strength or Dexterity.
Your pact weapon disappears if it is more than 5 feet away from you for 1 minute or more. It also disappears if you use this feature again, if you dismiss the weapon (no action required), or if you die.
You can transform one magic weapon into your pact weapon by performing a special ritual while you hold the weapon. You perform the ritual over the course of 1 hour, which can be done during a short rest. You can then dismiss the weapon, shunting it into an extradimensional space, and it appears whenever you create your pact weapon thereafter.
You can't affect an artifact or a sentient weapon in this way. The weapon ceases being your pact weapon if you die, if you perform the l hour ritual on a different weapon, or if you use a l hour ritual to break your bond to it. The weapon appears at your feet if it is in the extradimensional space when the bond breaks.

I added a new invocation:

Hexblade's CursePrerequisite: Pact of the Blade
You gain the ability to place a baleful curse on someone. As a bonus action, choose one creature you can see within 5 squares of you. The target is cursed for 1 minute. The curse ends early if the target dies, you die, or you are incapacitated. Until the curse ends, you gain the following benefits:
• You gain a bonus to damage rolls against the cursed target equal to your proficiency bonus.
• Any attack roll you make against the cursed target is a critical hit on a roll of 19 or 20 on the d20.
• If the cursed target dies, you regain hit points equal to your warlock level + your Charisma modifier (minimum of 1 hit point).
You can't use this feature again until you finish a short or long rest.

I combined and expanded the options for Eldritch Blast invocations (I give EB for free under the cantrip section - talk about a tax!)


Amplify Eldritch BlastYou can choose a number of options below to affect your eldritch blast cantrip equal to your Proficiency Bonus. When your Proficiency Bonus increases, you can choose an additional option. Whenever you gain a level, you can swap one effect for another. You can stack effects unless otherwise specified.
Agonizing BlastWhen you cast eldritch blast, add your casting stat modifier to the damage it deals on a hit.
Beguiling BlastYour eldritch blast deals no damage, but on a hit, instead charms the target as per the charm person spell. Note: can only be used with Eldritch Spear.
Blinding BlastWhen you cast eldritch blast, reduce the damage die to d6, but on a hit, the target is blinded for one round.
Eldritch GlaiveWhen you cast eldritch blast, instead of forming a blast, it instead forms a physical weapon of pure Force with a reach of 10 feet. The glaive lasts for 1 minute, is considered a magic weapon dealing a d12 on a hit and uses your casting stat to hit. Instead of making multiple attacks at higher level, the number of dice it deals on a hit increases. An Eldritch Glaive can't be turned into a Pact weapon. Eldritch Spear increases the range to 15 feet. Blinding Blast deals d8s instead of d6s. Cannot be used with Guiding Blast.
Eldritch SpearWhen you cast eldritch blast, its range is 300 feet.
Energy SubstitutionWhen you cast eldritch blast, you can change the damage type to Acid, Cold, Fire, Lightning or Thunder.
Grasp of HadarOnce on each of your turns when you hit a creature with your eldritch blast, you can pull that creature 10 feet.
Guiding BlastIf all your eldritch blasts target and hit the same creature, the next attack has advantage to hit. For each blast that hits, increase the number of attacks against the creature with advantage by the same number.
Lance of LethargyOnce on each of your turns when you hit a creature with your eldritch blast, you can reduce that creature's speed by 10 until the end of your next turn.
Repelling BlastWhen you hit a creature with eldritch blast, you can push the creature up to 10 feet away from you in a straight line.

[ad_hoc]

There is more to the Patron besides 1st level abilities. Hexblade is without a doubt the most front loaded of all the Patrons, but claiming Hexblade is so much better then the other Patrons AINEC is just not true. If Medium Armor and Shield were that amazing then why wasn't Mountain Dwarf considered the most OP race?

The difference in AC is plain to see. How can you argue against that being an immense benefit?

Mountain Dwarf doesn't give proficiency in Shields. There is an actual trade off there. You're losing out on +1 hp/level and the +2 Strength rarely works well with the medium armour proficiency.

Mountain Dwarf is good but it's not overpowered. There are real choices to be made. Sure a Mountain Dwarf Wizard has decent AC and the +2 Con is nice but they're not getting a bonus to Dex or Int as they would like to have with another race. After 5th level Mage Armour becomes an affordable spell to cast as well which mitigates much of the bonus provided.

This is not the same thing.

Have you looked at the other levels? The Hexblade's 6th level feature is at least as good as Fey and Fiend and much better than Old One.

The Patrons aren't supposed to be very powerful. Not all subclasses have the same impact on a class. The Warlock has their subclass essentially split into patron, pact, and invocations.

Stop and compare the abilities and what it means for the character.

The difference between an AC of 14 and an AC of 18/19 is absolutely huge. And for what cost? Having a damage boosting Hex instead of a 1 round fear effect? That isn't a cost.

[Sorinth]

Because the classes they are best for already have them and they don’t get shields.

Hexblade is miles ahead of other subclasses.

+2 Constitution is great for every spell caster, and I doubt very much that being able to carry a shield is that overpowered.

But fine you don't like Mountain Dwarf, then how about V. Human. Grab Moderately Armored as their level 1 feat, they now get Medium Armor + Shields just like the supposed overpowered Hexblade, it's a half-feat so they can also grab +1 Dex on top of the Human's already +1 to any two stats.

[Arkhios]

There's a difference between hating and choosing not to play a Hexblade.

While I didn't take part of the discussion there, I wouldn't play a Hexblade myself, because I find it's a deliberate attempt of making all other similar characters appear weak in comparison (even if it isn't true). Still, I don't hate it so much that I would nerf it. If my player wants to play one, I'll say go ahead.

[Tanarii]

But fine you don't like Mountain Dwarf, then how about V. Human. Grab Moderately Armored as their level 1 feat, they now get Medium Armor + Shields just like the supposed overpowered Hexblade, it's a half-feat so they can also grab +1 Dex on top of the Human's already +1 to any two stats.
And Vuman is out of line with every other race.

You're not helping by comparing to a very powerful race and feats (many of which are also quite powerful).

[Pex]

This. When designing characters, I often find myself trying to talk myself out of a 1 Hexblade dip. I am personally not a fan of the class, but I took it on my most recent Swashbuckler character because it was far and away the most cost efficient way to get booming blade, medium armor, shield proficiency, and synergized with the CHA abilities of the Swashbuckler. I'm not against a blade wielding warlock, but it should be paywalled behind the pact. At level one it is simply to versatile in its applicability.


Why did you absolutely need all that? Swashbuckler, like any rogue, gets its damage from sneak attack. You have it easier than other rogues to get sneak attack in melee and can move away from your target without an AoO without using your Cunning Action. You can bonus action hide sneak attack with a bow as any rogue when you don't want to be in melee. If you really need the AC there's the Moderately Armored feat. Play Variant Human if you need it at first level. Perhaps you wanted Booming Blade to punish your target for coming after you when you move away. It's a good idea, but some might say that's being greedy. Would you still have wanted all that if Hexblade didn't exist? You wanted specific things. Why is it Hexblade's fault it fulfilled them to condemn it?

At another angle, in general people complain spellcasters are SAD while warriors are MAD. Now here's a way some warriors can be SAD, accepting everyone needs CON and personal bias I'd want at least a 14 CON for all my characters. Why is it terrible warriors can join the SAD fun wagon? As I see it people complaining about Hexblade is just a subset of the general complaint about anyone dipping one or two levels of any class. There are various synergies within multiclassing, which recently has its own threads of people complaining about it/defending it. Combinations producing cool things is fun. As long as it doesn't win D&D I don't have a problem with it.

As a personal matter in reference to a different thread I am reconsidering my personal angst against Blade Singer. It might not be as out of line as I thought.

Edit: For criticism against Hexblade vis a vis it should have been part of Pact of the Blade in the first place I nod my head.

[Segev]

Since I'm not on my phone, I should link my own take on revamping the Hexblade (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?587734-Turning-the-Hexblade-quot-Patron-quot-into-modular-powers). The goal here was to make as few core changes to the Warlock as possible while adding options that would let them have as much of the Hexblade Patron as they wanted...by spending Invocations and spell choices. I did try as well to avoid making it overly dippable; much of it scales with spell slot level (yes, full casters can take advantage, but Warlocks scale much better in this regard) and even Invocations that require specific levels.


There is more to the Patron besides 1st level abilities. Hexblade is without a doubt the most front loaded of all the Patrons, but claiming Hexblade is so much better then the other Patrons AINEC is just not true. If Medium Armor and Shield were that amazing then why wasn't Mountain Dwarf considered the most OP race?

Because the Hexblade gets this on top of things that are already competitive with (if not better than) the other Patrons, while Mountain Dwarves get +1 stat as the only other thing they have over other subraces on top of the armor and shield proficiencies. Mountain Dwarf is oft overlooked because it is honestly kind-of boring. As boring as the non-variant human, or at least close. And, as people mentioned, its stat boosts make it best for classes that already get medium armor and shield proficiency, so the classes they can enter that don't just overwrite their racial perk (other than a +2, rather than just +1, to Strength) benefit relatively little from said stat boost. If it weren't for the fact that Pact of the Blade makes a shift to using Cha, and I don't think it's optional, Mountain Dwarf might've been the best race for a Pact of the Blade Warlock prior to Hexblade Patron's existence: the armor proficiency and the +2 Strength would help with the martial aspect for levels 1 and 2.

At some point, I might try building a Mountain Dwarf Wizard, just because the idea of an armored single-class mage wielding a hammer and a shield amuses me.

[BloodBrandy]

Honestly, my issue with Hexblade is it's too pigeonholed to the Raven Queen. Would be nice if it had a bit more leeway to work with other possible patrons, or some options on certain things. Also I really don't care for the level 6 feature as it makes it hard to flavor into other types of patrons.

[JakOfAllTirades]

It's too front-loaded, too SAD, too overpowered, its powers don't fit a common theme (mainly because there isn't one), and the fluff is so badly written as to be meaningless.

If you see me playing one, call NASA cuz I've been replaced by an alien.

[ad_hoc]

+2 Constitution is great for every spell caster, and I doubt very much that being able to carry a shield is that overpowered.

But fine you don't like Mountain Dwarf, then how about V. Human. Grab Moderately Armored as their level 1 feat, they now get Medium Armor + Shields just like the supposed overpowered Hexblade, it's a half-feat so they can also grab +1 Dex on top of the Human's already +1 to any two stats.

And then you're not taking another race or another feat.

You're comparing apples and oranges.

You can list 1000 abilities which are better than having medium armour and shields proficiencies but that doesn't mean anything if you're not actually discussing the choices. You need to compare patron to patron.

There is a significant cost to taking Human and grabbing medium armour proficiency. Compare human with medium armour/shields, +2 Dex +1 Cha, and a skill proficiency to Half-Elf with +2 Cha, +1 Dex, +1 Con, 2 skill proficiencies, and darkvision.

There is no tradeoff on the patron because Hexblade is already a strong patron without the armour proficiencies factored in. They're just significant bonuses on top of their already strong patron abilities.


At some point, I might try building a Mountain Dwarf Wizard, just because the idea of an armored single-class mage wielding a hammer and a shield amuses me.

No shield proficiency on Mountain Dwarves.

[LudicSavant]

There are at least two easy ways you can somewhat reduce the Hexblade's attractiveness as a dip while not even really impacting their single class usefulness.

1) Remove the Shield spell from their list and replace it with something else. This spell is mediocre for single class Warlocks (who don't even have L1 slots past level 2), but game-changing for dips (who rarely exceed level 2 in Warlock anyways, and get more L1 slots from outside classes).

2) Make Hexblade's Curse scale based on Warlock level, rather than proficiency. (Obviously this has no impact on the usefulness of single-class Warlocks).

Seriously, these features don't do much of anything besides making them better at dips.

[Sception]

I do think mechanically hexblade gives too much at level 1, mostly because it's patching an issue with pact of the blade with 'hex warrior', and that patch doesn't replace anything, it's just pasted on top of what is otherwise a fully functional warlock patron. Take hex warrior out of hexblade, paste is into pact of the blade, and things work better, though level 1 to 2 of pure hexblade gets rather awkward.

What most people seem to object to is the supposed 'Sadness' that it allows for cha classes and that I don't get. First of all, it's only offensive sadness, and almost all classes are offensively SAD by default. The champion fighter uses Strength for both their melee attacks and the save DCs of their maneuvers. Wizards, clerics, sorcerers, and blasty warlocks use the same casting stats for theor cantrip spell attacks and their spell save DCs. Rogues use Dex for all their attacks, Barbarians use strength for everything, etc.

The only exceptions are monks and half or third casters, and it's very easy to make the argument that these exceptions are the problems. Especially since even if you fix the offensive MADness of these classes, they still need multiple stats for defence.

A hexblade still needs 14 dex for medium armor for their AC, or 15 strength for heavy armor if they have heavy armor proficiency. They still need constitution, both as a melee combatant who needs more HP than a back line archer or spell slinger and as a caster who needs to pass concentration saves or lose their best spells. Arguably the only classes with as much dependance on Constitution are clerics, paladins, and the exceptionally rare barbarian who actually tries to fight unarmored.

In this sense, a hexblade - including paladins & melee bards who dip hexblade - are still significantly less SAD than, say, a fighter or rogue, who's singular offensive stats are also used for their AC.


My point is that yeah, hexblade is awkward and overly front loaded, and tacking a fix to a third level pact boon onto the first level features of what is otherwise a fully functional patron independent of that patch was a bad idea. But if you're worried about the whole SADness thing, you really shouldn't.


The biggest problem with hexblade is the same as with bladesinger and valor bard and war cleric, and that's the issue that a subclass splashing a bit of melee into a full caster class just does not work aa well as the reverse. A little bit of casting adds a ton of versatility to a melee class, while a little bit of swording adds next to nothing to a full caster, who's at will attacks are already well covered by scaling cantrips which can be safely cast from a distance, and you instead just end up with a caster who gets to save spell slots on defensive spells because they have better default AC due to extra armor proficiencies & other AC features.

Hexblade, along with pact of the blade, should have been a separate half-pact-caster from the start, basically. WotC's allergy to adding new classes and insistance on trying to cram too many conceptual and mechanical concepts into the too-tight confines of a subclass, then shove those subclasses up under the skirts of too few existing classes is the real problem with hexblade, and just banning hexblade doesn't get rid of that problem, because its frustrating effects can be felt all over 5e.

[StoicLeaf]

I don't hate the class per se but dislike it because it's hard to come up with a good character background story without it being supremely edgy.

[KorvinStarmast]

It's just too damn much in a single level.


Bad fluff, bad design, and bad power creep. If the Pact of Blade gave, with its pact, proficiency with medium Armor, or proficiency with medium armor and shields, then Hex Blade would not have been necessary.

Its a subclass that was clearly just created to patch a hole, rather than actually fixing that hole, and it does it in the worst possible way, And this.


As others have said, it's patchwork. Pact of the Blade was a cool, but objectively subpar choice for warlocks. So instead of fixing Pact of the Blade they created something new with what the Pact should've had in the first place and more. First transgression, "fixing" an issue by basically covering it up.
-snip-
Weapon warlocks are a great concept. Hexblade, unfortunately, isn't a good implementation of that concept. And that.

I don't hate the class per se but dislike it because it's hard to come up with a good character background story without it being supremely edgy. Something about Elric of Melnibone just begs for a character concept that fits his theme.

[Arkhios]

Hexblade's fluff in itself isn't all that bad. The trope of a "hexed" sword is older than D&D.

For example, Excalibur (a centuries-old-legend), Stormbringer (fictional sword from 1961, introduced over a decade before D&D was even invented), and Tyrfing (google it), to name a few, could all be Hexblades, which might mean a cursed blade just as much as a magic blade.

[LudicSavant]

Hexblade's fluff in itself isn't all that bad. The trope of a "hexed" sword is older than D&D.

For example, Excalibur, Stormbringer, and Tyrfing (google it), to name a few, could all be Hexblades, which might mean a cursed blade just as much as a magic blade.

The problem isn't that it's using that trope. The problem is that it does an incompetent job of using that trope.

[Arkhios]

The problem isn't that it's using that trope. The problem is that it does an incompetent job of using that trope.

Bad implementation ≠ Bad fluff.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Hexblade's fluff in itself isn't all that bad. The trope of a "hexed" sword is older than D&D.

For example, Excalibur, Stormbringer, and Tyrfing (google it), to name a few, could all be Hexblades, which might mean a cursed blade just as much as a magic blade.

Bad implementation ≠ Bad fluff.
The issue about the fluff as written is that you're not really bound to the weapon, you're bound to the entity that made it. And that entity (singular) isn't even given a straight answer on who it is, although it's heavily implied to be the Raven Queen. Heck, there's even a line at the end of the first paragraph that says you can be a Hexblade without having a blade, which harms the fluff more than it helps the mechanical side of things.

I think many of those here (at least myself) have retooled the fluff because as it exists it doesn't even reach the basic trope of "hexed sword". It's "you know a hexed sword exists, begged the guy who made it to notice you and now you can make your own mediocre copy... or not, you're powerful now either way."

It's bad because it hasn't accurately depicted what was expected, if you've gone far enough outside the trope that most can't recognize it (the fact that defenders need to cite references to reach the intended conclusion), it's bad fluff. For example, the paragraph lists Blackrazor... why? Only to remind you that the fluff is supposed to involve a magic weapon, only to sentences later give you permission to forego that completely, telling you that the power is not in the weapons but with the creator of them.

On the mechanics side of Hexblade, the frontloading is the biggest problem for me. I use it because it's too good to pass up and lets me build characters that are powerful quickly. Despite that, I don't think it should be this easy. It's always been hard to argue for staying in warlock for extend periods of time if multiclassing is on the table and Hexblade doesn't help that at all, it makes the issue worse.

[Zetakya]

The thing is, what I wanted was the ability to play Pact of the Blade with any of the other sub classes.

Take, for example, The Lone Swordsman from A Practical Guide to Evil. He wields The Penitent's Blade, a sword he was gifted by an Angel of the Choir of Contrition. He is, by any standards, a Celestial Bladelock. I want there to be an effective way to play a similar character.

(if you haven't read aPGtG it's here: https://practicalguidetoevil.wordpress.com/ - The Lone Swordsman features in books 1 & 2 (we're currently in book 6).

[LudicSavant]

Bad implementation ≠ Bad fluff.

Uhm, yes it does. If you write bad fluff text for your class, your class has bad fluff text.

[Arkhios]

I'm not arguing that Hexblade is designed well, not at all. It's mechanical overload at first level already is just too much, even from my point of view. All I'm saying is that the 5e Hexblade's fluff is solid and usable as is. I'd argue D&D isn't supposed to enable an accurate portrayal of historical or mythological stories, but rather tell completely new ones of your own. Hexblade flavor doesn't have to fall 100% in line with the trope it clearly draws inspiration from. Even then it doesn't have to.

Its design does leave a lot to hope for, however.

[Christew]

Why did you absolutely need all that? Swashbuckler, like any rogue, gets its damage from sneak attack. You have it easier than other rogues to get sneak attack in melee and can move away from your target without an AoO without using your Cunning Action. You can bonus action hide sneak attack with a bow as any rogue when you don't want to be in melee. If you really need the AC there's the Moderately Armored feat. Play Variant Human if you need it at first level. Perhaps you wanted Booming Blade to punish your target for coming after you when you move away. It's a good idea, but some might say that's being greedy. Would you still have wanted all that if Hexblade didn't exist? You wanted specific things. Why is it Hexblade's fault it fulfilled them to condemn it?

Edit: For criticism against Hexblade vis a vis it should have been part of Pact of the Blade in the first place I nod my head.
Not really sure why we're off on a tangent where I have to defend a character build, but this Swashbuckler was being run in a 1v1 campaign. Without party members it is significantly harder to get sneak attack and being forced to front line requires enhanced survivability. Therefore I wanted booming blade for crowd control and a shield to go with my rapier. Variant human with moderate armor lacks the cantrip. High elf lacks the shield. Hexblade delivers everything in a neat and cost effective package. Too neat and cost effective because it outpaces other one level dip or race (though I don't think we should be comparing races especially vhuman -- vhuman is the Hexblade 1 of races).

You edit is oddly worded, but yes, that is the point being made by most Hexblade complainants.

[ProsecutorGodot]

All I'm saying is that the 5e Hexblade's fluff is solid and usable as is. I'd argue D&D isn't supposed to enable an accurate portrayal of historical or mythological stories, but rather tell completely new ones of your own. Hexblade flavor doesn't have to fall 100% in line with the trope it clearly draws inspiration from. Even then it doesn't have to.

I'd argue that it still fails in that regard, even if you just observe the name, source of power and narrative/mechanical results as your only references.

Name: Hexblade. Blade is in the name, you'd better have a cool one that makes you strong. Warlock Subclass naming conventions suggest that your pact would be with the weapon.

Source of Power: Not a weapon, but the blacksmith. They gave you magic powers, no weapon required.

Narrative Result: You don't even have to use a weapon for your powers to manifest. Most of your abilities don't even rely on a weapon at all.

Mechanical Result: You have a curse you inflict that is not reliant on a weapon and you aren't even tied to one weapon emulated after Blackrazor as the fluff implies, you switch between upgrades that likely don't even resemble Blackrazor in the slightest (unless you've chosen Pact of the Blade) because not every +X weapon in the world is going to.

[Segev]

Honestly, my issue with Hexblade is it's too pigeonholed to the Raven Queen. Would be nice if it had a bit more leeway to work with other possible patrons, or some options on certain things. Also I really don't care for the level 6 feature as it makes it hard to flavor into other types of patrons.The hexblade warlock in my game (because the player wanted those mechanics, and it's honestly not the mechanics I have a problem with, other than HOW they're given) has, as his Patron, Baggy Nanna. She took the young Warlock under her wing and was a second mother to her. A horrible influence of a second mother. She taught her all sorts of fun tricks and encouraged bad behavior, until one day the young Warlock went too far and realized just how bad an influence "Auntie Nanna" was.

For the 6th level feature of the Hexblade, the Night Hag patron actually makes MORE sense than a "weapon" or a "weapon smith." Baggy Nanna is going to send an emmissary - a quickling named Coxquro - with a gift of a specially-stitched bag of supple leather to her protege. "Nanna says you're about ready to take care of this, yourself," Coxquro will tell her. It's a "baby's first soul bag," and will enable Ren, the Warlock, to do the spectre-binding thing when she hits sixth level.


No shield proficiency on Mountain Dwarves.

My mistake. Even better, then, because that leaves a hand free for somatic gestures without needing the War Caster feat.

[LudicSavant]

My mistake. Even better, then, because that leaves a hand free for somatic gestures without needing the War Caster feat.

My preferred way of getting a medium armor + shield on a single class Wizard is to go Hobgoblin and take the Moderately Armored feat.

Don't really need the War Caster feat since there's no real reason to use a weapon anyways. Just use a cantrip that doesn't have melee penalties, like Toll the Dead.

[Zetakya]

Mountain Dwarf is the only method of getting Medium Armour proficiency that doesn't also give Shield Proficiency. Which is actually a problem, because it then means that all of the methods of getting Shield Proficiency are very wasteful for Dwarves.

Mountain Dwarf is, in my opinion, one of (if not the) best balanced race available. It offers something useful for everyone; CON and Darkvision are universal, Martials love the STR bonus and non-martials love the Armour and Weapon proficiencies, It's hard to find a class that doesn't do well as a Mountain Dwarf.

[LudicSavant]

Mountain Dwarf is the only method of getting Medium Armour proficiency that doesn't also give Shield Proficiency.

No, it isn't. Githyanki does the same thing.

[JackPhoenix]

Mechanical Result: You have a curse you inflict that is not reliant on a weapon and you aren't even tied to one weapon emulated after Blackrazor as the fluff implies, you switch between upgrades that likely don't even resemble Blackrazor in the slightest (unless you've chosen Pact of the Blade) because not every +X weapon in the world is going to.

Speaking of Blackrazor, it doesn't work with Hex Warrior or Pact of the Blade. Hex Warrior needs one-handed weapon, unless it's a weapon summoned through Pact of the Blade, and PotB can't bond with Blackrazor, as it is sentient.

[Zetakya]

No, it isn't. Githyanki does the same thing.

I stand corrected; For some reason I thought Githyanki only received light armour proficiency. The point still stands on the awkwardness though.

[JackPhoenix]

I stand corrected; For some reason I thought Githyanki only received light armour proficiency. The point still stands on the awkwardness though.

Multiclassing to barbarian, however, gives proficiency with shield, but not any armor.

[Sorinth]

The difference in AC is plain to see. How can you argue against that being an immense benefit?

Mountain Dwarf doesn't give proficiency in Shields. There is an actual trade off there. You're losing out on +1 hp/level and the +2 Strength rarely works well with the medium armour proficiency.

Mountain Dwarf is good but it's not overpowered. There are real choices to be made. Sure a Mountain Dwarf Wizard has decent AC and the +2 Con is nice but they're not getting a bonus to Dex or Int as they would like to have with another race. After 5th level Mage Armour becomes an affordable spell to cast as well which mitigates much of the bonus provided.

This is not the same thing.

Have you looked at the other levels? The Hexblade's 6th level feature is at least as good as Fey and Fiend and much better than Old One.

The Patrons aren't supposed to be very powerful. Not all subclasses have the same impact on a class. The Warlock has their subclass essentially split into patron, pact, and invocations.

Stop and compare the abilities and what it means for the character.

The difference between an AC of 14 and an AC of 18/19 is absolutely huge. And for what cost? Having a damage boosting Hex instead of a 1 round fear effect? That isn't a cost.

For Mountain Dwarf it's not 14 vs 18/19, it's 16/17 vs 18/19 which is not that big. For V. Human you can get both M. Armor and Shields and still get you bonus to Charisma.

If getting that level of AC on a full caster was overpowered then prior to Hexblade coming out every guide would tell you take V. Human and grab Moderately Armored, but they didn't. The armor + shields is good, no doubt about that, but it doesn't make them overpowered. Just like a Wizard who started his 1st level as fighter to get Heavy Armor and Con saves is good but not overpowered.


And Vuman is out of line with every other race.

You're not helping by comparing to a very powerful race and feats (many of which are also quite powerful).

Is Moderately Armored now considered one of the powerful feats now? Cause I've never seen anyone claim that it is a strong feat, and frankly I doubt anyone ever takes it except for some very niche builds or for RP reasons.

If the argument is that a Warlock is OP because they get Medium Armor + Shields and therefore can have a good AC then prior to Hexblade we would've seen tons of V. Human Warlocks taking the Moderately Armored feat, but that didn't happen.


And then you're not taking another race or another feat.

You're comparing apples and oranges.

You can list 1000 abilities which are better than having medium armour and shields proficiencies but that doesn't mean anything if you're not actually discussing the choices. You need to compare patron to patron.

There is a significant cost to taking Human and grabbing medium armour proficiency. Compare human with medium armour/shields, +2 Dex +1 Cha, and a skill proficiency to Half-Elf with +2 Cha, +1 Dex, +1 Con, 2 skill proficiencies, and darkvision.

There is no tradeoff on the patron because Hexblade is already a strong patron without the armour proficiencies factored in. They're just significant bonuses on top of their already strong patron abilities.

Except the claim is that they are over powered which means the comparison should be with other builds that are also considered over powered and not with previous pact of the blade Warlock because they were considered underpowered.

With a point buy system V. Human and Half-Elf would get pretty much the same stats, 16 in both Charisma and Constitution and a 14 Dex. Really the only difference is the Half elf will have a better tertiary stat like Wisdom or Intelligence. Darkvision is probably meaningless due to Devil's Sight. A small boost to a tertiary stat and an extra skill is not what I would consider a significant cost. The real opportunity cost of doing that is not taking an actual powerful feat, which just shows that having m. armor + shield isn't overpowered.

If prior to Hexblade, Half-Elf was comparable to V. Human taking Moderately Armored then clearly getting Medium Armor and Shield on a Warlock is not over powered. If it was then everyone would've either taken V. Human or spent their first ASI on it. But they didn't because even though it's good it's not overpowered.

[elyktsorb]

I feel the best way to tell if something is 'too good' in a game isn't to ask what you get from it, but rather what you wouldn't take over it.

[Sception]

I don't hate the class per se but dislike it because it's hard to come up with a good character background story without it being supremely edgy.

I would argue that that's a deliberate feature. Some classes, and especially some subclasses, are just edgy by design, on account of a fair number of players enjoying that sort of flavor - ironically or otherwise. Warlock in general tends towards edginess. Arguably Hexblade isn't even the sharpest example there.

I do agree that the Hexblade lore is weak and ambiguous, but I don't really blame the Hexblade for that. Rather I blame the tangentially related 5e lore for the Raven Queen, which tries to carry forward one of the few break out popular bits of fluff introduced in 4e, but in the process completely changes each and every individual aspect that made the 4e version popular, and then tries to cover up the fact that the 5e version is Raven Queen in name only by being as nebulous and noncommittal about the new version as possible. Taken on her own merits, the 5e version of the Raven Queen isn't even bad, she's actually potentially rather compelling, but that lack of commitment tarnishes everything related to her, and since the decision had already been made to tie the Hexblade to the Raven Queen (that's where the specter thing comes from), the decision to just not commit to anything regarding her 5e fluff ended up leaving the Hexblade similarly poorly defined.

To really give hexblades a role and make them shine in your campaigns you don't need to change their mechanics (though personally if you're prone to house ruling I would recommend taking hex warrior out of hexblade and just adding it into pact of the blade), but you do need to change, or at least expand, their patron lore. Some possible examples, in a spoiler block since it's all half baked homebrew stuff:

1) Hexblade patrons aren't magic swords, but rather death spirits or psychopomps - grim reapers, ferrymen, angels of death, shinigami, Dullahan, some sort of supernatural entity that either heralds the death of mortals or invites mortals to their deaths or guids the souls of the dead to the appropriate afterlife. Of course, you'd have to add a class of such creatures to your game. Frankly it's kind of surprising that D&D hasn't really had such a thing by default. Several similar concepts, but nothing as universally and specifically defined as, say, demons, devels, celestials, etc. 4e's version of Sorrowsworn would have worked for this, and not surprisingly 4e's Sorrowsworn served 4e's Raven Queen. The hexblade's subclass features are a very good fit for a mortal servant of such a creature. Unfortunately, 5e's Sorrowsworn are something else entirely, but you could either reintroduce the 4e version to your game under another name, or introduce some other similar class of supernatural entities associated with death and transition that might form pacts with mortals either to enact their will on the mortal world or else out of pure curiosity about the lives led by the souls they're always ferrying around.


2) In Ravnica specifically, the members of the Obzedat, the Orzhov's ruling ghost council, work especially well as patrons for a Hexblade warlock. Their portfolios well fit the hexblade's supernatural powers of deadly curses and compelling ghosts into temporary indentured service, and each of them would greatly value having individual enforcers tied to them specifically that they could use to advance not just the goals of the Orzhov generally but also their personal agendas over each other. Plus the fact that they're basically the undead board of directors of an all powerful banking monopoly fits with the interpretation of the warlock pact where the patron is giving up a small portion of their power that then grows with the mortal spirit of the warlock as they gain experience, eventually returning with that growth as interest to the patron once the warlock's mortal lifespan inevitably comes to an end.


3) Expand the existing lore rather than replacing it. This is going to be the longest suggestion since it requires making stuff up and you still have a patron that isn't just a distinct supernatural personality that the DM can role play normally. So who is the hexlock's patron? A Hexblade - not just any powerful magic item but rather one of a particular family of semi-sentient cursed weapons. The weapon specifically is the patron, not the "shadowy force" behind it. Why doesn't the warlock actually have the weapon in hand? Because the Hexblades were banished by the gods to the void outside of reality long ago, and now their only means of interacting with other beings, and their only hope of returning to reality, is via warlock pacts. Who made them? Why were they banished? You could answer this any number of ways dependent on your campaign, but one way that fits is to say they were specifically created by the Raven Queen. The 5e version of the Raven Queen. If your game uses the 4e version then just replace the standard hexblade patron with the 4e version of Sorrowsworn and have done. The 5e Raven Queen collects memories of grief and sorrow, blesses and consoles those who have suffered through it, but also is implied to manipulate events - deliberately or otherwise - in such a way as to manufacture the sorts of tragic memories she collects.

Legendary cursed artifact weapons can do all of these things. They can be a blessing granted to someone who has suffered tragedy, a gift of power by which they can prevent such tragedies from striking themselves or their loved ones again. But they can also be the source of grief and sorrow, as individuals or even entire armies are drawn to such weapons, fighting wars over possessing them, leaving ever greater tragedy in their wake. One can imagine countless generations of orphans, each seeing their parents cut down, each swearing to reclaim the stolen blade that was their birthright and use it to kill the one who murdered their parents and stole it in the first place, only to leave the next generation of vengeful orphans in their wake. A few generations of suffering, maybe one or two needless wars later, and the suffering mortals finally beseech their gods to take these cursed weapons away. Hence their banishment, along with the Raven Queen being forbidden from creating any more.

As for what the hexblades themselves desire as warlock patrons? Well, primarily what they want is that slowly harvested 'power with interest' end of the warlock exchange. When they accumulate enough, a hexblade can use that power to cut it's way back into reality, manifesting a physical form in the real world - at least temporarily. Until its power is too drained to maintain that form, or until the servants of the gods find the weapon and banish it again. But even more than that, what a hexblade wants is to be wielded, to clash with foes, to cut down enemies. A given hexblade might not be inherently evil. While intelligent, it might not even be truly sentient. Though supernatural in nature, it is fundamentally a weapon, and a weapon is a tool whose purpose is to kill. A banished hexblade desperately wants to kill again, and by sharing it's power with a warlock it will get to.

As for how the pact is forged in the first place, forgotten tomes might reveal the true names of one or more of the lost hexblades and rituals by which they might be contacted and their power bargained for - such rituals perhaps involving forging an effigy of the hexblade which the prospective warlock uses to draw their own blood, which they then use to write out a contract. Alternatively a cursed family of warriors or a secretive order of arcane knights might have a shared pact with a hexblade, passing its power and its curse down through the generations - think something like the Belmonts from the Castlevania games. But most commonly a hexblade will simply appear to mortals who crave power - especially those who feel helpless in the face of tragedy and wish for a weapon they might use to strike back against those responsible. A hexblade might appear in such a person's mind, offering them an unspoken pact: "I will be your weapon, if only you will wield me".

Though some hexblades might impose specific terms, taboos, and compulsions upon their warlocks - never sheath your blade without it first tasting blood, never let an insult go unanswered, carve a particular rune in the bodies of those you kill, kill at least one creature each moon, always accept any challenge to a duel, touch only bladed weapons, etc - most make no such impositions. In general, Hexblades seems to be the least demanding of warlock patrons, but the hexblade's demands aren't absent, merely subtle, a constant pressure on the mind, violence always springing to first thought when presented with any obstacle or conflict. Petty slights sting more than they should, demand satisfaction and redress. And while the toll a hexblade expects in exchange for the pact might not be paid up front, it is paid none the less - exacted in the form of the tragedy that follows in the hexlock's wake. When they aren't creating enough sorrow in others through the violent use of their powers, that grief will instead visit them and their loved ones in the form of sudden and unexpected misfortunes. Either way the blade lodged in their soul sucks up the sorrow and the bloodshed alike, while always urging them towards further violence and misfortune.

Some hexlocks will never recognize the source of their suffering and will instead simply stumble from tragedy to bloody revenge in an inescapable cycle, leaving a trail of misery in their wake. Hexlocks who do recognize the pattern and its source might quest for a way to rid themselves of their curse, or destroy their patron outright. Along the way, they might stay on the move, trying not to form attachments to those who might suffer as a result. Think Guts from Berserk. Others will simply satiate the Hexblade's desires by seeking out targets to prey upon - whether innocent victims or deserving villains. These hexlocks existing on the aligment extremes, whether villains constantly in search of their next victim or heroes perpetually questing for more wrongs to avenge, tend to be the happiest, most successful, and least self destructive. They are able to exist in a state of harmony with their patron and avoid drawing its misfortune down on themselves and those they care about, but it's an uneasy and unstable balance that must be constantly maintained.

As a DM with a Hexlock in your party, ask yourself: has the Hexlock used their powers to fight and kill anything in the last month?
Was that in a battle against a worthy foe, or at least against a sentient creature that could properly appreciate the power being used on them? Beyond simple bloodshed, has the Hexlock soaked up any grief? Have they either suffered some significant sorrow themselves, or spent time consoling the sorrow of others, or at least inflicted some sorrow on their foes (simply killing enemies isn't enough if there were no family or survivors to lament the loss)? If the answer to any of these questions is no, then it might be time for the hexlock themselves, one of the other PCs, or especially an npc the party happens to care about to suffer an unexpected tragedy. Do not tell the players *why* this is happening. If they happen to notice a pattern, then they can attempt to work out the reason for themselves via divination or otherwise, and if they figure out why misfortune seems to spring up whenever they start to settle down, that it's a result of the warlock they travel with, then they can decide what to do about it then.

Mechanically, the hexlock's cha-based fighting style is the martial skill of all those who wielded their patron in its physical existence being magically channeled through the strength of their bond. The curses reflect the cursed nature of the hexblade, it's predisposition to bring misfortune on those around it, channeled by the warlock's will towards their enemies. The specter thing is the hexblade drawing out the despair of a victim past even their mortal death.

[Sorinth]

I would argue that that's a deliberate feature. Some classes, and especially some subclasses, are just edgy by design, on account of a fair number of players enjoying that sort of flavor - ironically or otherwise. Warlock in general tends towards edginess. Arguably Hexblade isn't even the sharpest example there.

I do agree that the Hexblade lore is weak and ambiguous, but I don't really blame the Hexblade for that. Rather I blame the tangentially related 5e lore for the Raven Queen, which tries to carry forward one of the few break out popular bits of fluff introduced in 4e, but in the process completely changes each and every individual aspect that made the 4e version popular, and then tries to cover up the fact that the 5e version is Raven Queen in name only by being as nebulous and noncommittal about the new version as possible. Taken on her own merits, the 5e version of the Raven Queen isn't even bad, she's actually potentially rather compelling, but that lack of commitment tarnishes everything related to her, and since the decision had already been made to tie the Hexblade to the Raven Queen (that's where the specter thing comes from), the decision to just not commit to anything regarding her 5e fluff ended up leaving the Hexblade similarly poorly defined.

To really give hexblades a role and make them shine in your campaigns you don't need to change their mechanics (though personally if you're prone to house ruling I would recommend taking hex warrior out of hexblade and just adding it into pact of the blade), but you do need to change, or at least expand, their patron lore. Some possible examples, in a spoiler block since it's all half baked homebrew stuff:

1) Hexblade patrons aren't magic swords, but rather death spirits or psychopomps - grim reapers, ferrymen, angels of death, shinigami, Dullahan, some sort of supernatural entity that either heralds the death of mortals or invites mortals to their deaths or guids the souls of the dead to the appropriate afterlife. Of course, you'd have to add a class of such creatures to your game. Frankly it's kind of surprising that D&D hasn't really had such a thing by default. Several similar concepts, but nothing as universally and specifically defined as, say, demons, devels, celestials, etc. 4e's version of Sorrowsworn would have worked for this, and not surprisingly 4e's Sorrowsworn served 4e's Raven Queen. The hexblade's subclass features are a very good fit for a mortal servant of such a creature. Unfortunately, 5e's Sorrowsworn are something else entirely, but you could either reintroduce the 4e version to your game under another name, or introduce some other similar class of supernatural entities associated with death and transition that might form pacts with mortals either to enact their will on the mortal world or else out of pure curiosity about the lives led by the souls they're always ferrying around.


2) In Ravnica specifically, the members of the Obzedat, the Orzhov's ruling ghost council, work especially well as patrons for a Hexblade warlock. Their portfolios well fit the hexblade's supernatural powers of deadly curses and compelling ghosts into temporary indentured service, and each of them would greatly value having individual enforcers tied to them specifically that they could use to advance not just the goals of the Orzhov generally but also their personal agendas over each other. Plus the fact that they're basically the undead board of directors of an all powerful banking monopoly fits with the interpretation of the warlock pact where the patron is giving up a small portion of their power that then grows with the mortal spirit of the warlock as they gain experience, eventually returning with that growth as interest to the patron once the warlock's mortal lifespan inevitably comes to an end.


3) Expand the existing lore rather than replacing it. This is going to be the longest suggestion since it requires making stuff up and you still have a patron that isn't just a distinct supernatural personality that the DM can role play normally. So who is the hexlock's patron? A Hexblade - not just any powerful magic item but rather one of a particular family of semi-sentient cursed weapons. The weapon specifically is the patron, not the "shadowy force" behind it. Why doesn't the warlock actually have the weapon in hand? Because the Hexblades were banished by the gods to the void outside of reality long ago, and now their only means of interacting with other beings, and their only hope of returning to reality, is via warlock pacts. Who made them? Why were they banished? You could answer this any number of ways dependent on your campaign, but one way that fits is to say they were specifically created by the Raven Queen. The 5e version of the Raven Queen. If your game uses the 4e version then just replace the standard hexblade patron with the 4e version of Sorrowsworn and have done. The 5e Raven Queen collects memories of grief and sorrow, blesses and consoles those who have suffered through it, but also is implied to manipulate events - deliberately or otherwise - in such a way as to manufacture the sorts of tragic memories she collects.

Legendary cursed artifact weapons can do all of these things. They can be a blessing granted to someone who has suffered tragedy, a gift of power by which they can prevent such tragedies from striking themselves or their loved ones again. But they can also be the source of grief and sorrow, as individuals or even entire armies are drawn to such weapons, fighting wars over possessing them, leaving ever greater tragedy in their wake. One can imagine countless generations of orphans, each seeing their parents cut down, each swearing to reclaim the stolen blade that was their birthright and use it to kill the one who murdered their parents and stole it in the first place, only to leave the next generation of vengeful orphans in their wake. A few generations of suffering, maybe one or two needless wars later, and the suffering mortals finally beseech their gods to take these cursed weapons away. Hence their banishment, along with the Raven Queen being forbidden from creating any more.

As for what the hexblades themselves desire as warlock patrons? Well, primarily what they want is that slowly harvested 'power with interest' end of the warlock exchange. When they accumulate enough, a hexblade can use that power to cut it's way back into reality, manifesting a physical form in the real world - at least temporarily. Until its power is too drained to maintain that form, or until the servants of the gods find the weapon and banish it again. But even more than that, what a hexblade wants is to be wielded, to clash with foes, to cut down enemies. A given hexblade might not be inherently evil. While intelligent, it might not even be truly sentient. Though supernatural in nature, it is fundamentally a weapon, and a weapon is a tool whose purpose is to kill. A banished hexblade desperately wants to kill again, and by sharing it's power with a warlock it will get to.

As for how the pact is forged in the first place, forgotten tomes might reveal the true names of one or more of the lost hexblades and rituals by which they might be contacted and their power bargained for - such rituals perhaps involving forging an effigy of the hexblade which the prospective warlock uses to draw their own blood, which they then use to write out a contract. Alternatively a cursed family of warriors or a secretive order of arcane knights might have a shared pact with a hexblade, passing its power and its curse down through the generations - think something like the Belmonts from the Castlevania games. But most commonly a hexblade will simply appear to mortals who crave power - especially those who feel helpless in the face of tragedy and wish for a weapon they might use to strike back against those responsible. A hexblade might appear in such a person's mind, offering them an unspoken pact: "I will be your weapon, if only you will wield me".

Though some hexblades might impose specific terms, taboos, and compulsions upon their warlocks - never sheath your blade without it first tasting blood, never let an insult go unanswered, carve a particular rune in the bodies of those you kill, kill at least one creature each moon, always accept any challenge to a duel, touch only bladed weapons, etc - most make no such impositions. In general, Hexblades seems to be the least demanding of warlock patrons, but the hexblade's demands aren't absent, merely subtle, a constant pressure on the mind, violence always springing to first thought when presented with any obstacle or conflict. Petty slights sting more than they should, demand satisfaction and redress. And while the toll a hexblade expects in exchange for the pact might not be paid up front, it is paid none the less - exacted in the form of the tragedy that follows in the hexlock's wake. When they aren't creating enough sorrow in others through the violent use of their powers, that grief will instead visit them and their loved ones in the form of sudden and unexpected misfortunes. Either way the blade lodged in their soul sucks up the sorrow and the bloodshed alike, while always urging them towards further violence and misfortune.

Some hexlocks will never recognize the source of their suffering and will instead simply stumble from tragedy to bloody revenge in an inescapable cycle, leaving a trail of misery in their wake. Hexlocks who do recognize the pattern and its source might quest for a way to rid themselves of their curse, or destroy their patron outright. Along the way, they might stay on the move, trying not to form attachments to those who might suffer as a result. Think Guts from Berserk. Others will simply satiate the Hexblade's desires by seeking out targets to prey upon - whether innocent victims or deserving villains. These hexlocks existing on the aligment extremes, whether villains constantly in search of their next victim or heroes perpetually questing for more wrongs to avenge, tend to be the happiest, most successful, and least self destructive. They are able to exist in a state of harmony with their patron and avoid drawing its misfortune down on themselves and those they care about, but it's an uneasy and unstable balance that must be constantly maintained.

As a DM with a Hexlock in your party, ask yourself: has the Hexlock used their powers to fight and kill anything in the last month?
Was that in a battle against a worthy foe, or at least against a sentient creature that could properly appreciate the power being used on them? Beyond simple bloodshed, has the Hexlock soaked up any grief? Have they either suffered some significant sorrow themselves, or spent time consoling the sorrow of others, or at least inflicted some sorrow on their foes (simply killing enemies isn't enough if there were no family or survivors to lament the loss)? If the answer to any of these questions is no, then it might be time for the hexlock themselves, one of the other PCs, or especially an npc the party happens to care about to suffer an unexpected tragedy. Do not tell the players *why* this is happening. If they happen to notice a pattern, then they can attempt to work out the reason for themselves via divination or otherwise, and if they figure out why misfortune seems to spring up whenever they start to settle down, that it's a result of the warlock they travel with, then they can decide what to do about it then.

Mechanically, the hexlock's cha-based fighting style is the martial skill of all those who wielded their patron in its physical existence being magically channeled through the strength of their bond. The curses reflect the cursed nature of the hexblade, it's predisposition to bring misfortune on those around it, channeled by the warlock's will towards their enemies. The specter thing is the hexblade drawing out the despair of a victim past even their mortal death.

I think the problem is actually the Patron should never have been linked to the abilities in the first place. All Patrons should have been fluff.

So you would have been able to take the Fiend abilities but your Patron was actually an Avenging Angel. You could take the GOO abilities but have a Fey Patron, etc...

[ad_hoc]

For Mountain Dwarf it's not 14 vs 18/19, it's 16/17 vs 18/19 which is not that big. For V. Human you can get both M. Armor and Shields and still get you bonus to Charisma.

If getting that level of AC on a full caster was overpowered then prior to Hexblade coming out every guide would tell you take V. Human and grab Moderately Armored, but they didn't. The armor + shields is good, no doubt about that, but it doesn't make them overpowered. Just like a Wizard who started his 1st level as fighter to get Heavy Armor and Con saves is good but not overpowered.



You're still not understanding.

Obviously having medium armour proficiency in general is not overpowered. Fighters are not overpowered for example.

Having 1 patron who has it though makes that patron overpowered.

Do you see the difference?

Take a Diviner Wizard (or whatever) and also give them medium armour proficiency and shields. Would that be overpowered to you? Who wouldn't want to take that subclass?

[Spiritchaser]

In the thread about what people would nerf and ban, the number one choice was hexblade, and I don't understand why. Do people just hate the armor profs?

I wouldn’t nerf it, I wouldn’t ban it: BUT that needs to be taken in context of my players/campaigns/allowed UA

The fluff stinks. Anyone in my campaign is welcome to propose something (anything) better, or I’ll write in something that fits the campaign.

It’s a very strong dip class. Ok, it is, that’s poorly done, but it doesn’t bring part caster CHA MC builds up to full casters.

Single class Hexblade warlock’s are flat out better than other warlock options? No not absolutely but I agree it’s generally stronger than the others, at least in combat. I don’t think it’s the outlier, more like the other patrons are. I do allow the UA eldritch armor invocation, which I find to be an annoying feat tax, but it does make quite a difference. I’ve also toyed with allowing it without the blade pact prerequisite, which makes the archfey a heck of a lot cooler... Definitely case by case on this one though

[ad_hoc]

I wouldn’t nerf it, I wouldn’t ban it: BUT that needs to be taken in context of my players/campaigns/allowed UA

The fluff stinks. Anyone in my campaign is welcome to propose something (anything) better, or I’ll write in something that fits the campaign.

It’s a very strong dip class. Ok, it is, that’s poorly done, but it doesn’t bring part caster CHA MC builds up to full casters.

Single class Hexblade warlock’s are flat out better than other warlock options? No not absolutely but I agree it’s generally stronger than the others, at least in combat. I don’t think it’s the outlier, more like the other patrons are. I do allow the UA eldritch armor invocation, which I find to be an annoying feat tax, but it does make quite a difference. I’ve also toyed with allowing it without the blade pact prerequisite, which makes the archfey a heck of a lot cooler.

It's not the outlier, the other patrons are the outliers?

That word does not mean what you think it means.

[Pex]

Not really sure why we're off on a tangent where I have to defend a character build, but this Swashbuckler was being run in a 1v1 campaign. Without party members it is significantly harder to get sneak attack and being forced to front line requires enhanced survivability. Therefore I wanted booming blade for crowd control and a shield to go with my rapier. Variant human with moderate armor lacks the cantrip. High elf lacks the shield. Hexblade delivers everything in a neat and cost effective package. Too neat and cost effective because it outpaces other one level dip or race (though I don't think we should be comparing races especially vhuman -- vhuman is the Hexblade 1 of races).

You edit is oddly worded, but yes, that is the point being made by most Hexblade complainants.

I'm fine with your build, but you're blaming Hexblade for giving you what you wanted.

There are a number of classes/subclasses that give juicy stuff at 1st level and even 2nd level. A cleric domain. Con and armor proficiency. Cantrips. Fighting style. Action Surge. Cunning Action. Expertise. Smiting. Rage. The complaint against Hexblade is the complaint against dipping. I don't hold the view of dipping being a bad thing. I see it where others do, but I value enjoyment of game mechanics. A player having his fun that doesn't win D&D is not a bad thing.

[Spiritchaser]

It's not the outlier, the other patrons are the outliers?

That word does not mean what you think it means.

If we were looking only at warlocks, sure

If we’re also looking at clerics, druids, paladins, bards, Bladesingers, war mages and an assortment of other 5e casters with added survival tools?

It means exactly what I think it means.

[Boci]

The fluff stinks. Anyone in my campaign is welcome to propose something (anything) better, or I’ll write in something that fits the campaign.

When I played a hexblade I asked my DM if I could just make it a feypact, but I asked for martial grace rather than the traditional fey trickery.

[KOLE]

I'm fine with your build, but you're blaming Hexblade for giving you what you wanted.

There are a number of classes/subclasses that give juicy stuff at 1st level and even 2nd level. A cleric domain. Con and armor proficiency. Cantrips. Fighting style. Action Surge. Cunning Action. Expertise. Smiting. Rage. The complaint against Hexblade is the complaint against dipping. I don't hold the view of dipping being a bad thing. I see it where others do, but I value enjoyment of game mechanics. A player having his fun that doesn't win D&D is not a bad thing.

I agree with you completely- I enjoy multiclass builds and encourage my players to find that synergy. But there's a difference between fine tuning a build combining Battlemaster maneuvers with Swashbuckler for versatility, or taking a couple of levels in Bard to diversify your Draconic Sorc and give you some party support, and a one size fits all one level dip that doesn't interfere with caster levels, grants full martial capabilities, the best offensive cantrip in the game, and synergizes perfectly with an Ability that most spellcasters need and is very useful out of combat. Though some make the argument, I'm completely for dips and multi builds. But the Hexblade is the one exception: it overshadows everything. When something is so good it becomes a requirement to be optimized rather than an option, it hurts the game overall, encourages munchkinnery, and discourages actual creativity or mechanical prowess.

[Segev]

Point of order: Hexblade Warlock dips do interfere with caster levels. Pact magic doesn't add in to increase spell slot acquisition from normal casting, and with a dip only provides 1 level 1 slot.

[Sception]

I think the problem is actually the Patron should never have been linked to the abilities in the first place. All Patrons should have been fluff.

So you would have been able to take the Fiend abilities but your Patron was actually an Avenging Angel. You could take the GOO abilities but have a Fey Patron, etc...

Eh, to me patron makes as much sense as anything for warlock subclasses. More sense than most things, honestly. Pact Boons don't really fit the bill for me, I really don't see enough room to expand them into proper subclasses, especially since honestly I think bladelock should be it's own half caster class distinct from warlock entirely. Full Caster subclasses that tack on the sort of armor proficiences that a melee warrior class needs never work out well, imo, hexblade itself is an example but so are bladesinger and valor bard, both subclasses that try to be gishy spellcasting sword-swingers but end up just being casters with better AC.

Different patrons having subclass powers themed around the nature of that patron makes sense to me. If one has the mechanics but not the flavor you want that's fine, reworking established class lore to fit game mechanics to a novel character concept is a long standing D&D tradition.

[KOLE]

Point of order: Hexblade Warlock dips do interfere with caster levels. Pact magic doesn't add in to increase spell slot acquisition from normal casting, and with a dip only provides 1 level 1 slot.

But that comes with it's own perk of having a level 1 spell slot that comes back on a short rest. One level warlock + 3rd level primary spellcaster = 5 level one slots. You're giving up higher level slots for a little more versatility on the lower end, and it puts Shield on your spell list. It's a trade off, sure, but much less of one than taking a martial or half caster which actively guts your slots.

[JakOfAllTirades]

What most people seem to object to is the supposed 'Sadness' that it allows for cha classes and that I don't get. First of all, it's only offensive sadness, and almost all classes are offensively SAD by default. The champion fighter uses Strength for both their melee attacks and the save DCs of their maneuvers. Wizards, clerics, sorcerers, and blasty warlocks use the same casting stats for theor cantrip spell attacks and their spell save DCs. Rogues use Dex for all their attacks, Barbarians use strength for everything, etc.

The only exceptions are monks and half or third casters, and it's very easy to make the argument that these exceptions are the problems. Especially since even if you fix the offensive MADness of these classes, they still need multiple stats for defence.

A hexblade still needs 14 dex for medium armor for their AC, or 15 strength for heavy armor if they have heavy armor proficiency. They still need constitution, both as a melee combatant who needs more HP than a back line archer or spell slinger and as a caster who needs to pass concentration saves or lose their best spells. Arguably the only classes with as much dependance on Constitution are clerics, paladins, and the exceptionally rare barbarian who actually tries to fight unarmored.

In this sense, a hexblade - including paladins & melee bards who dip hexblade - are still significantly less SAD than, say, a fighter or rogue, who's singular offensive stats are also used for their AC.


My point is that yeah, hexblade is awkward and overly front loaded, and tacking a fix to a third level pact boon onto the first level features of what is otherwise a fully functional patron independent of that patch was a bad idea. But if you're worried about the whole SADness thing, you really shouldn't.


That's... actually a thorough analysis of the SADness issue. Up to this point, I thought this was the most egregious of the Hexblade's flaws, but now I'm not sure. Thanks for posting this.

I'm not convinced that giving Hexblades this feature was necessary, (or that it's a needed house rule fix for the Blade Pact) but perhaps it's not the game-breaker I thought it was.

[Joe the Rat]

The thing is, what I wanted was the ability to play Pact of the Blade with any of the other sub classes.
Power creep and multiclass abuse aside, this is the biggest issue. Looking at Pact of the Blade, or Melee Warlock in general, Hexblade is mechanically the best choice, hands down. A non-pact of the blade hexblade will still be stronger in melee that a pact of the blade for any other patron. Frankly, many of the features here should be part of the blade pact, or a blade invocation at worst. Making Charisma to hit/damage a Pact feature would make a big shift. The Hexblade is still base proficient like a baby martial (which is strong), and has the Hexblade Curse (which while strong is really what the class should be focused on), but making the SADness a 3rd level PACT feature opens doors again, and leans into balancing melee v casting.

Hell, WotC could leave the Hexblade as-is, add Cha for hittin' to the pact (oh noes, the weapon-heavy patron doesn't get as much from the weapon Pact), and have at least a semblance of internal balancing.

I need to remember to add this to my houserule list.



Speaking of Blackrazor, it doesn't work with Hex Warrior or Pact of the Blade. Hex Warrior needs one-handed weapon, unless it's a weapon summoned through Pact of the Blade, and PotB can't bond with Blackrazor, as it is sentient.Ironic, isn't it?
(I waived that for my player, though he does run into other issues...)

[Sorinth]

Different patrons having subclass powers themed around the nature of that patron makes sense to me. If one has the mechanics but not the flavor you want that's fine, reworking established class lore to fit game mechanics to a novel character concept is a long standing D&D tradition.

The powers are generic enough though that you could easily find cases where one type of patron would be better suited with another versions mechanics.

For instance, if your pact is with a Shadow Demon or a Night Hag you have a pact with a Fiend, yet the mechanics of Hexblade would actually be a better fit. An Avenging Angel Patron would actually better represented by the Fiend's mechanics. And the list goes on, there's no reason they needed to link the Patron to the mechanics.

[Theodoxus]

It's hard to find a class that doesn't do well as a Mountain Dwarf.

Monk. If I had to play a dwarven monk, I would definitely not go mountain...

Rogue gains very little - even a strength rogue would find the weapon profs useless. Not that hill provides much better if you just had to go dwarf... but an extra hit point vs less reliance on Dex to AC... mitigation vs avoidance... subjective call...

Ranger... gains little from mountain. Not as bad as monk, but almost... +2 Str vs +1 Wis... all things being equal, I'd probably go Hill (the HP boost is also as welcome as the Con boost).

Cleric and Druid, neither need Strength over Wisdom, for sure... so...

5/12 classes would prefer Hill to Mountain... though I definitely agree with you on Int and Cha based casters, the opposite is true!

[Christew]

I'm fine with your build, but you're blaming Hexblade for giving you what you wanted.

There are a number of classes/subclasses that give juicy stuff at 1st level and even 2nd level. A cleric domain. Con and armor proficiency. Cantrips. Fighting style. Action Surge. Cunning Action. Expertise. Smiting. Rage. The complaint against Hexblade is the complaint against dipping. I don't hold the view of dipping being a bad thing. I see it where others do, but I value enjoyment of game mechanics. A player having his fun that doesn't win D&D is not a bad thing.
No, I'm blaming Hexblade for being an outlier on (specifically) level one abilities granted. It limits creativity and diversity to have a "best" option, because there is an opportunity cost to taking any other route. I would rather not dip Hex, but would be effectively gimping myself to not do so. I just wish it were more in line with other classes (ie requiring two or three levels).

All classes grant some kind of distinct feature at early levels by design. Otherwise level 1 would be even more painful than it already is and you wouldn't feel like you were playing your chosen class out of the gate. My complaint (as stated earlier) is the power of ONE level in Hexblade. A TWO (cunning action, action surge, channel divinity and domain feature) level dip is a significant investment that has significant costs (spell progression, ASIs, etc) in a way that ONE is not (especially if that dip grants pact magic). Barbarian 1 is the only fair comparison you offer, but it's required strength focus makes it far, far less versatile and therefore less desirable than Hexblade.


I agree with you completely- I enjoy multiclass builds and encourage my players to find that synergy. But there's a difference between fine tuning a build combining Battlemaster maneuvers with Swashbuckler for versatility, or taking a couple of levels in Bard to diversify your Draconic Sorc and give you some party support, and a one size fits all one level dip that doesn't interfere with caster levels, grants full martial capabilities, the best offensive cantrip in the game, and synergizes perfectly with an Ability that most spellcasters need and is very useful out of combat. Though some make the argument, I'm completely for dips and multi builds. But the Hexblade is the one exception: it overshadows everything. When something is so good it becomes a requirement to be optimized rather than an option, it hurts the game overall, encourages munchkinnery, and discourages actual creativity or mechanical prowess.
This.

[Trask]

No, I'm blaming Hexblade for being an outlier on (specifically) level one abilities granted. It limits creativity and diversity to have a "best" option, because there is an opportunity cost to taking any other route. I would rather not dip Hex, but would be effectively gimping myself to not do so. I just wish it were more in line with other classes (ie requiring two or three levels).

Right on the mark. Mechanics need boundaries and limitations if theyre going to co-exist peacefully with creativity, and in general its unhealthy for the game to have one option that overshadows all the rest.

[Sorinth]

You're still not understanding.

Obviously having medium armour proficiency in general is not overpowered. Fighters are not overpowered for example.

Having 1 patron who has it though makes that patron overpowered.

Do you see the difference?

Take a Diviner Wizard (or whatever) and also give them medium armour proficiency and shields. Would that be overpowered to you? Who wouldn't want to take that subclass?

I don't think people should really use the term overpowered if the end result of the character isn't overpowered. For example if sticking to PHB only it would be nonsensical to claim the Hunter Ranger is overpowered simply because the only other option was the terrible Beastmaster class. Hunter Ranger was still underpowered because the whole Ranger class was underpowered.

But even if we wanted to just compare Patrons I don't see Hexblade as the best. If you want to go Pact of the Blade and melee then yeah Hexblade is hands down the best choice. But if you wanted to be a blaster then Hexblade although decent is not really any better then some of the others.

For the non-melee Hexblade they have a relatively weak spell list. The 6th level ability is not particularly good in practice and unlike the other Patrons doesn't recharge on short rest. The 10th level ability can be great against boss encounters, but again if you aren't in melee it's not going to do much. The 14th level ability is strong but compared to the other 14th level abilities I'm not sure I would rank it that high.

[Man_Over_Game]

Question for those who hate Hexblade: Is one level of Hexblade stronger than one level of Cleric?

I'd say No. It's not.

So why do we hate it?

Because it changes the mechanics of the entire build by adding multiple features that benefit anyone, and it does so without any kind of theme or investment:

Curse a target to take extra damage from your damage rolls as a Bonus Action, no Concentration.
Converts your attack stat into Charisma.
Offers Medium Armor, Martial Weapons and shields.
Grants** the Shield spell.
Grants a Short Rest spell slot.

Tell me, who is that bad on? It's not overpowered, but there's no niche, no mechanical or thematic concept. None of it is orienting you towards a single goal other than "Kill sh**".
Sure, Shillelagh is in a similar boat, but at least that costs a feat or a level, grants far few benefits in those classes (like Druids), and requires a quarterstaff or club. It's a lot more restrictive, and those restrictions maintain a theme for the playstyle.
A similar mechanic that'd change how your attributes are used might be seen in Unarmored Defense, Bladesinging, or a subclass feature, but those all require additional investments that contribute to the narrative of the character. Battlemaster is incredibly thematic despite having fairly universally effective mechanics, and yet those mechanics tell a story.

For the Hexblade, it doesn't matter how powerful it is to use Charisma for your weapon. It feels lazy. Using it to enrich your character is a lazy design. Hell, going as a sole Hexblade is a lot more interesting than the players who make lazy builds that pick 1 level into Hexblade just because they want to be lazy about how they level up their character.

Interesting characters have weaknesses. Hexblade dips have none, except in the noncombat department, which is like saying they're the best at being boring and the worst at being interesting.

[Christew]

For the non-melee Hexblade they have a relatively weak spell list. The 6th level ability is not particularly good in practice and unlike the other Patrons doesn't recharge on short rest. The 10th level ability can be great against boss encounters, but again if you aren't in melee it's not going to do much. The 14th level ability is strong but compared to the other 14th level abilities I'm not sure I would rank it that high.
Yeah, I've always found non-melee Barbarians to be pretty lackluster too :tongue:

[Zetakya]

Monk. If I had to play a dwarven monk, I would definitely not go mountain...

Rogue gains very little - even a strength rogue would find the weapon profs useless. Not that hill provides much better if you just had to go dwarf... but an extra hit point vs less reliance on Dex to AC... mitigation vs avoidance... subjective call...

Ranger... gains little from mountain. Not as bad as monk, but almost... +2 Str vs +1 Wis... all things being equal, I'd probably go Hill (the HP boost is also as welcome as the Con boost).

Cleric and Druid, neither need Strength over Wisdom, for sure... so...

5/12 classes would prefer Hill to Mountain... though I definitely agree with you on Int and Cha based casters, the opposite is true!

Monk I will grant you; the clash between their class abilities and Dwarven Armour Training is pretty major. You do still get bonuses to Athletics from STR, and the CON is never wasted.

Rogue and Ranger... I feel you've not played a Dwarven Gloomstalker with throwing weapons. The Dwarven Thrower is an iconic magic item for a reason, here.

Cleric... Hello, Heavy Armour? OK, it's subclass/build dependent, but so are lots of things. Martially inclined Clerics (War, Forge) work well as a Dwarf.

Druid... ok, granted.

So I would say there's 2/12 classes where the Mountain Dwarf really doesn't give the class much. The others all have builds and subclasses that work well with MD.

[Sception]

To be fair, hexblade does NOT advance normal spellcasting, as regular caster levels and pact caster levels do not stack - not for spells known (no caster levels stack for spells known), and not for spell slots, either.

Not saying hexblade isn't excessively front loaded, it is. And it adds to the problem of the already too front loaded warlock class and the problem that cantrips in general and eldritch blast in particular maybe should be scaling with class level - or at least caster level (ie sorcerer levels and warlock levels wouldn't stack) - and not automatically with character level. By comparison, warrior class levels explicitly do not stack for their equivalent 'at will' damage boosts, including extra attack.

It really doesn't break the game imo - dipping warlock isn't going to bring cha gishes up to the level of full casters - but I won't pretend it isn't a problem.

That said, if you're going to house rule by banning it, you should consider instead the less harsh house rule of taking hex warrior out of hexblade and adding it to pact of the blade. Don't make it an invocation they have to take, pact of the blade is already overburdened with an excess of invocation taxes.

Such a house rule still keeps the hexblade patron for those who like it thematically, and removes some of the narrative pressure to have to go into blade boon if they'd rather play a more casty type warlock. For casty warlocks who don't care about their patron, it delays the medium armor and shield proficiencies and tacks a significant cost onto them, since they're giving up a very good familiar or a number of useful cantrips, both of which a traditional casty warlock cares about, plus the boon specific invocations for blade boon are all weapon oriented and don't help casty locks.

Multiclassing warlocks for cha melee attacks would still be possible, and a tempting option for paladins and melee bards, but 3 levels would constitute a significant commitment for the exchange. Besides, taking three levels of warlock for cha melee attacks was already possible via pact of the tome for cha-based Shillelagh, and if a player is doing that anyway you'd at least want them to take the more thematically appropriate blade boon, right?

Plus, bladelocks of other patrons, from fiendish warriors to fey knights, would suddenly become a lot more functional and attractive. Particularly for player who don't want to deal with the hassle of multiclassing, but it also offers narrative dividends for the dippers, too, as anyone who was still willing to go three levels into warlock to get hex warrior could choose whatever patron they wanted. Maybe that's still hexblade for some Elrik type flavor, but maybe it's fiend for a hell knight conqueror or fey for bardic fey prince sort of build.


Because, honestly? I actually kind of like hex warrior as a fix for pact of the blade. It's nowhere near what the *true* fix would be, which is making hexblade it's own separate 'half pact caster' martial class with the same range of patrons as the regular casty warlock, less casting, different invocations, and class features, HP, and proficiencies built for fighting rather than spell slinging, but as far as quick fix patches go it mostly works. It just needed to be applied *to* pact of the blade, not on top of the first level features of a random patron.


Many of the other problems people have with hexblade aren't fixed by removing hexblade. Even without it, warlock is *still* far too attractive a dip for bard, paladin, or sorcerer. Fixing that, though, would require more extreme corrections, like making eldritch blast a class feature that scales with warlock level instead of a cantrip that scales with character level, or preventing pact magic slots from being used for spells and class features of other classes. And at that point you'd be raining pretty hard on some builds that really aren't game breaking, and should maybe be giving back some other extra stuff in return, and now you're just completely rewriting one if not several classes from the ground up.

If you're not going to do that, then you aren't fixing the real underlying problems, and if you aren't actually fixing the problems, then why rain on someone's parade by banning the subclass in the first place? You're cutting into a player's enjoyment without getting a real advantage out of it.

[Ovarwa]

Hi,

I don't think Hexblade breaks anything.

But I do think it solves a minor problem while making a major problem worse.

The minor problem it solves is that players did not like bladelocks. Right or wrong, the prevailing sentiment was that single class melee warlocks were not worthwhile. Enter the hexblade. Single class melee warlocks are better than ever.

The major problem it exacerbated is that warlock was favored as a dip or multiclass. Right or wrong, the prevailing sentiment was that warlock was worthwhile as icing on another class, or was worthwhile with icing from some other class, but not a full time thing. Enter the hexblade. Warlock makes a better dip than ever, and because the new stuff kicks in early, there is less reason than ever to stick with the class.

Because of the major problem, the fix to the minor problem is mostly irrelevant in a game that allows MC, leaving us with fluff that many players find distasteful, rightly or wrongly, with more warlock MC than ever and less patron diversity.

A real fix, imo, would have slightly restructured the class as a whole to make it more attractive as a full-time career.

Anyway,

Ken

[ad_hoc]

Rogue and Ranger... I feel you've not played a Dwarven Gloomstalker with throwing weapons. The Dwarven Thrower is an iconic magic item for a reason, here.

The thrown property is not the same as the ranged property.

Daggers are the only thrown weapons that can sneak attack because they are also finesse.

Remember, it isn't a ranged attack that makes it work, it's a ranged weapon. Otherwise ranged spell attacks would work too.

[JackPhoenix]

The thrown property is not the same as the ranged property.

Daggers are the only thrown weapons that can sneak attack because they are also finesse.

Remember, it isn't a ranged attack that makes it work, it's a ranged weapon. Otherwise ranged spell attacks would work too.

Also darts, which are both ranged and finesse (which means it's the only PHB ranged weapon that can be used with Str). But besides weight and cost, there's no difference between using a dart and a dagger.

[Zetakya]

The thrown property is not the same as the ranged property.

Daggers are the only thrown weapons that can sneak attack because they are also finesse.

Remember, it isn't a ranged attack that makes it work, it's a ranged weapon. Otherwise ranged spell attacks would work too.

Darts.

And you don't have to use the Finesse property, it just has to have it. You can (e.g) dual-wield with a main gauche offhand to Sneak Attack with (a favourite of the Swashbuckler with Dual-wielder feat), or hit and run with a Dart throwing Rogue.

I stand by the Mountain Dwarf Gloomstalker Hammer Thrower as the king of throwing stuff at your head, though.

[Segev]

Also darts, which are both ranged and finesse (which means it's the only PHB ranged weapon that can be used with Str). But besides weight and cost, there's no difference between using a dart and a dagger.

I feel it important to point out the caveat "when thrown." Darts are improvised weapons when used in melee.

[ad_hoc]

Darts.

And you don't have to use the Finesse property, it just has to have it. You can (e.g) dual-wield with a main gauche offhand to Sneak Attack with (a favourite of the Swashbuckler with Dual-wielder feat), or hit and run with a Dart throwing Rogue.

I stand by the Mountain Dwarf Gloomstalker Hammer Thrower as the king of throwing stuff at your head, though.

Darts are ranged weapons. I technically made a mistake by not being careful with my wording but the point is there and should be obvious.

The only weapon that is not a ranged weapon that can be used to make a ranged sneak attack is the dagger.

I don't understand your point about a main-gauche (and really just say dagger, that's what it is in 5e unless you're meaning something else. In which case just use whatever term is used in 5e).

A weapon can be used with strength to sneak attack but I don't see what that has to do with our conversation. But sure, that's a thing. Is that what you're talking about?

[jmartkdr]

The most damning evidence that hexblades are overpowered is circumstantial: ever since Hexblade was introduced, the conversation on optimization of warlocks or gishes basically stopped, since the answer is clear "be a hexblade."

Used as intended (single-classed, melee focused), the hexblade is fine. Good but not overshadowing anyone, and it really delivers on the dark-warrior fantasy. My personal favorite class to play (I really like how the low number fo spell slots makes tactical decisions interesting.) But I assume I'm going to have to promise not to multiclass to keep the dm form panicking.

But if you break those assumptions - well, others have gone over that in detail. It's too good of a dip, and blast-hexblades are pretty much just better at blasting than other patrons. That'd be like a wizard subclass that's just better at spells than other wizards.

The fluff is not actually good, but it's close enough to some really cool stuff that most people seem to be able to make it work. Still, it'd be Oberoni fallacy to say that means the fluff is actually good.

I have a huge list of would-have-been-betters for hexblades, not the smallest of which is making it a whole new class, but I find that if people are playing in good faith the hate is overblown.

[Zetakya]

Darts are ranged weapons. I technically made a mistake by not being careful with my wording but the point is there and should be obvious.

The only weapon that is not a ranged weapon that can be used to make a ranged sneak attack is the dagger.

I don't understand your point about a main-gauche (and really just say dagger, that's what it is in 5e unless you're meaning something else. In which case just use whatever term is used in 5e).

A weapon can be used with strength to sneak attack but I don't see what that has to do with our conversation. But sure, that's a thing. Is that what you're talking about?

A Main Gauche is a weapon specifically wielded in the off hand with a longer sword in the main hand; it's there as a surprise weapon or a deterrent against someone closing within the reach of your main hand weapon in a sword duel. It's mostly a thing in Iberian swordsmanship.

The point in a D&D context is that you only get to make one Sneak Attack per round anyway, so there's no disadvantage to doing so with an off-hand weapon while wielding a higher damage weapon in your main hand.

Anyway, We're derailing here.

[ShuckedAeons]

That'd be like a wizard subclass that's just better at spells than other wizards.

Sooo every wizard subclass :^)

Jokes aside you have succinctly struck the proverbial nail on the head.

Compared to other patrons it kills thing better.

As a dip it’s too front loaded from 1 level.

[Segev]

A Main Gauche is a weapon specifically wielded in the off hand with a longer sword in the main hand; it's there as a surprise weapon or a deterrent against someone closing within the reach of your main hand weapon in a sword duel. It's mostly a thing in Iberian swordsmanship.

The point in a D&D context is that you only get to make one Sneak Attack per round anyway, so there's no disadvantage to doing so with an off-hand weapon while wielding a higher damage weapon in your main hand.

Anyway, We're derailing here.

If your on-hand weapon is not a finesse weapon and does more than a finesse weapon could (I believe rapiers are the highst-damage finesse weapons, at 1d8), you might benefit from the higher-damage on-hand weapon and the sneak attack off-hand weapon.

[ad_hoc]

A Main Gauche is a weapon specifically wielded in the off hand with a longer sword in the main hand; it's there as a surprise weapon or a deterrent against someone closing within the reach of your main hand weapon in a sword duel. It's mostly a thing in Iberian swordsmanship.

I get it but what is it in D&D?

Just say dagger if you mean dagger.


The point in a D&D context is that you only get to make one Sneak Attack per round anyway, so there's no disadvantage to doing so with an off-hand weapon while wielding a higher damage weapon in your main hand.


How does that have anything to do with anything we've been discussing?

[Sorinth]

Yeah, I've always found non-melee Barbarians to be pretty lackluster too :tongue:

Really? You think Warlock should be on the front line engaged in melee most of the time?

[Christew]

Really? You think Warlock should be on the front line engaged in melee most of the time?
Warlock in general? No, that's silly. Hexblade with the almost requisite pact of the blade? Yes, it is designed primarily for melee (albeit as a striker instead of a tank).

If it wasn't clear, I was (tongue firmly in cheek) attempting to point out that judging a melee focused class or subclass on how they perform outside of melee combat is a bit wonky.

[Sorinth]

Warlock in general? No, that's silly. Hexblade with the almost requisite pact of the blade? Yes, it is designed primarily for melee (albeit as a striker instead of a tank).

If it wasn't clear, I was (tongue firmly in cheek) attempting to point out that judging a melee focused class or subclass on how they perform outside of melee combat is a bit wonky.

Sure but the argument by many here is that Hexblade is so much better then the other patron's regardless of whether you want to be in melee combat or not. Hexblade is not only the better melee Patron, but it's also supposedly better if you want to be a blaster or any other type of Warlock.

The idea that a class has one Archetype that is more focused on melee then the others isn't unique. It's pretty standard. But with Warlock it's some sort of criminal offence that one Archetype is focused on melee.

[ProsecutorGodot]

The idea that a class has one Archetype that is more focused on melee then the others isn't unique. It's pretty standard. But with Warlock it's some sort of criminal offence that one Archetype is focused on melee.

The issue, from my point of view, is that Hexblade isn't actually a melee focused archetype. It's the best one, that's for sure, but all of it's features (minus hex warrior without improved pact weapon) also work with ranged or spells. They're great abilities for a spellcaster, you're not required to be melee and don't lose much by choosing not to use a weapon at all.

I am off the opinion that most if not all of the features should have a clause relying on weilding the weapon you have bonded with hex warrior. The only downside to this that I can think of off the top of my head is that it hurts shield wielding Hexblade who can't take feats.

[jas61292]

The idea that a class has one Archetype that is more focused on melee then the others isn't unique. It's pretty standard. But with Warlock it's some sort of criminal offence that one Archetype is focused on melee.

The issue here is twofold.

First off, as mentioned by many, Hexblade isn't just the melee archetype. It is the "most powerful warlock" archetype, being better than almost any other archetype at far more than just melee combat.

Secondly, in other classes where a caster gets a melee archetype, the subclass makes them halfway competent in melee so that they don't feel like they have to run away. They get defensive buffs and an extra attack, but rarely any powerful offensive features. Quite simply, those subclasses don't let them go toe to toe with a Fighter or Barbarian as a melee combatant. Which is good, because they are still a primary caster. Hexblade does. That's the issue.

[TheUser]

Didn't realize how much it makes sense to remove shield from hexblade. I am not sure how I would scale down Hexblade's curse to only scale with Warlock levels but it also sounds appropriate. +1 for Ludic. Makes the Hexblade pretty much spot on balance wise without harming core hexblades.

[Sorinth]

The issue, from my point of view, is that Hexblade isn't actually a melee focused archetype. It's the best one, that's for sure, but all of it's features (minus hex warrior without improved pact weapon) also work with ranged or spells. They're great abilities for a spellcaster, you're not required to be melee and don't lose much by choosing not to use a weapon at all.

I am off the opinion that most if not all of the features should have a clause relying on weilding the weapon you have bonded with hex warrior. The only downside to this that I can think of off the top of my head is that it hurts shield wielding Hexblade who can't take feats.


The issue here is twofold.

First off, as mentioned by many, Hexblade isn't just the melee archetype. It is the "most powerful warlock" archetype, being better than almost any other archetype at far more than just melee combat.

Secondly, in other classes where a caster gets a melee archetype, the subclass makes them halfway competent in melee so that they don't feel like they have to run away. They get defensive buffs and an extra attack, but rarely any powerful offensive features. Quite simply, those subclasses don't let them go toe to toe with a Fighter or Barbarian as a melee combatant. Which is good, because they are still a primary caster. Hexblade does. That's the issue.

Hexblade works as a non melee, but it's not the most powerful non-melee Warlock. I'd take pretty much ever other Patron except Fiend over Hexblade if I planned on being at the back blasting things with EB.

Hexblade going melee is no where close to the Fighter or Barbarian.

[Chaos Jackal]

Hexblade works as a non melee, but it's not the most powerful non-melee Warlock. I'd take pretty much ever other Patron except Fiend over Hexblade if I planned on being at the back blasting things with EB.

While I'm not of the opinion that Hexblade is the best Patron, I am of the opinion that it's the best damaging one (melee or ranged). I'd understand taking another Patron if you were in the back doing more than blasting things with EB, but if you're mostly blasting things with EB, how exactly does any other Patron do it better than Hexblade?

Again, I don't believe that Hexblade is a blanket check to everything, but at least as far as damage is concerned, be it mundane or blasting, I'm not sure how any of the other Patrons would help you more.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Hexblade works as a non melee, but it's not the most powerful non-melee Warlock. I'd take pretty much ever other Patron except Fiend over Hexblade if I planned on being at the back blasting things with EB.

Hexblade going melee is no where close to the Fighter or Barbarian.

Is there a reason you would exclude the Fiend? Because that's the one warlock subclasses I would consider competitive in survivability (dark ones blessing is very good) and blasting thanks to a very solid expanded spell list.

I'm genuinely confused here, to my knowledge Fiend was understood by many to be unequivocally the best blasting Warlock option prior to Hexblade, it's not dropping multiple positions just because Hexblade competes with it.

[loki_ragnarock]

I feel it important to point out the caveat "when thrown." Darts are improvised weapons when used in melee.

They uniquely aren't.

As the only ranged weapon without the ammunition property, you can use them to make melee attacks without any penalties whatsoever.


Did a quick dive on these rules in another thread, and I was under the same mistaken impression until I sat down and read through all the relevant tags for darts. Unless there was later errata.

They are quite marvelous little exceptions.

[Sorinth]

While I'm not of the opinion that Hexblade is the best Patron, I am of the opinion that it's the best damaging one (melee or ranged). I'd understand taking another Patron if you were in the back doing more than blasting things with EB, but if you're mostly blasting things with EB, how exactly does any other Patron do it better than Hexblade?

Again, I don't believe that Hexblade is a blanket check to everything, but at least as far as damage is concerned, be it mundane or blasting, I'm not sure how any of the other Patrons would help you more.

In terms of damage as a blaster yeah they are all pretty much the same, maybe Celestial gets a slight edge since they can boost damage of some non-EB spells. It's more things like Fey Presence + Misty Escape is much better for someone at the back who wants to stay out of melee then medium armor + shields is. Celestial's healing is quite useful for the party and offers versatility.


Is there a reason you would exclude the Fiend? Because that's the one warlock subclasses I would consider competitive in survivability (dark ones blessing is very good) and blasting thanks to a very solid expanded spell list.

I'm genuinely confused here, to my knowledge Fiend was understood by many to be unequivocally the best blasting Warlock option prior to Hexblade, it's not dropping multiple positions just because Hexblade competes with it.

Fiend's blasting comes from the expanded spell list, so if you want to throw Fireballs then you have to go Fiend and many people consider Fireball the #1 blasting spell. However since you are limited in spell slots I tend to find it better to not use my spell slots of things like Fireball. But this is probably dependent on adventure day length, if you can short rest when you run out of spell slots then I can see Fiend being a prime blaster, but that hasn't been my experience.

[Segev]

The issue, from my point of view, is that Hexblade isn't actually a melee focused archetype. It's the best one, that's for sure, but all of it's features (minus hex warrior without improved pact weapon) also work with ranged or spells. They're great abilities for a spellcaster, you're not required to be melee and don't lose much by choosing not to use a weapon at all.

I am off the opinion that most if not all of the features should have a clause relying on weilding the weapon you have bonded with hex warrior. The only downside to this that I can think of off the top of my head is that it hurts shield wielding Hexblade who can't take feats.

This is why my "fix" for it starts by making it not a Patron, adds shilelagh to the Warlock spell list (so the level 1 would-be Pact of the Blade Warlock can be a competent meleeist), and then builds a first level spell that scales by adding more and more features from Hexblade's Curse as you up the spell slot expended and adds more options via Invocations. It also has one Invocation that gives armor access. I'm not thrilled with all the design choices; reading this thread, I might go make a second pass at it. Create a unique Cantrip instead of just giving them shilelagh, though I'll need to make sure it's not "just better," and maybe remove the armor invocation in favor of doing something to let a Pact of the Blade Warlock either summon armor or get 10+Dex+Cha as their armor formula. At level 2, mage armor is actually pretty decent AC, and they can trade out Invocations every level. Still leaves them a bit wanting at level 1 for melee defensiveness.

[patchyman]

There is more to the Patron besides 1st level abilities. Hexblade is without a doubt the most front loaded of all the Patrons, but claiming Hexblade is so much better then the other Patrons AINEC is just not true. If Medium Armor and Shield were that amazing then why wasn't Mountain Dwarf considered the most OP race?

It feels like you are being disingenuous here. Mountain Dwarf gets access to Medium Armor (not Shields) and access to Dwarven Weapon Training. They also get a +2 to Str and a +2 to Con.

If you took the race for the +2 to Str and Con, chances are you already had access to Medium Armor and Dwarven Weapons.

If you took the race for the Medium Armor (not Shields) and Dwarven Weapon Training, chances are you started with a 14 in your main stat.

[patchyman]

Hexblade's fluff in itself isn't all that bad. The trope of a "hexed" sword is older than D&D.

For example, Excalibur (a centuries-old-legend), Stormbringer (fictional sword from 1961, introduced over a decade before D&D was even invented), and Tyrfing (google it), to name a few, could all be Hexblades, which might mean a cursed blade just as much as a magic blade.

The theme works in a vaccuum, it just doesn’t work in D&D where most characters will be rocking magical swords and the temptation for the warlock will be to replace his pact blade with a +2 sword the moment one becomes available.

[Willie the Duck]

Question for those who hate Hexblade: Is one level of Hexblade stronger than one level of Cleric?
I'd say No. It's not.
So why do we hate it?

Specific to the comparison to Cleric, I think that a Cleric is a wisdom class and a warlock is a charisma class is part of the issue. By the time the Hexblade came along, people had already spent years enduring <often half-elven, another vaguely over-tuned thing*> sorcadins, pallocks, sorlocks (including, especially in white room discussions like on these boards, the coffeelock), the original Unearthed Arcana Favored Soul sorcerer, occasionally a lore bard thrown in as well... honestly the pump was primed for hate on hexblade before it hit the page.
*and yuan ti, drow, tieflings and aasimar.

That said, I think a hexblade dip is stronger than one level of cleric for the things it is going to be added to. A paladin never having to raise their Str or Dex because they are going for a sword&board build and thus one level of hexblade and putting everything in charisma is very very tasty. One level of cleric... well it certainly helps the AC of a wizard willing to take 13+ in Wisdom (plus any Str requirements the armor has, or reduce speed) and delay getting Xth-level spells (but not slots) by one level. Other than that, there are certainly ways to use them, and the individual perks are fairly decent, but nothing stands out as having quite the same level of synergy as hexblade does with the already well-regarded charisma-based classes.

So, yeah, I do think hexblade dipping* is a bit stronger for the situations where it would happen, but also I think there's been a bit of 'oh goodie, another way that charisma-based classes and races will dominate the discussion, if not the game' going on in the cultural reaction to the thing. If it had come out after a slew of Wisdom-based things had just taken off, yes perhaps cleric dips would have gotten the backdraft instead.
*and honestly, single class hexblade is no problem, fluff and 'they should have fixed pact of blade instead' issues notwithstanding.

[Segev]

So, yeah, I do think hexblade dipping* is a bit stronger for the situations where it would happen, but also I think there's been a bit of 'oh goodie, another way that charisma-based classes and races will dominate the discussion, if not the game' going on in the cultural reaction to the thing. If it had come out after a slew of Wisdom-based things had just taken off, yes perhaps cleric dips would have gotten the backdraft instead.
*and honestly, single class hexblade is no problem, fluff and 'they should have fixed pact of blade instead' issues notwithstanding.

I...mostly agree. But I want to say that, while I share the fluff and 'they should have fixed pact of the blade instead' point of view, I have one additional problem with the Hexblade:

The cost paid for it is a more interesting Patron. Hexblade is not just fluff-annoying, it's mechanically rather uninteresting. Not only is it somewhat unfocused, especially past level 1, but it's best focused features are, basically, "be a gish." Patrons have some really interesting toys. And you're giving those up for...charisma to attacks and the ability to pick a victim to hurt a lot.

It's like you're being told you can play The Most Interesting Man In The World, or you can play Deathstab Killmurder. The former is far less potent in combat or any other mechanical way, but the latter doesn't do anything interesting other than kill things very, very well. But, since killing things is the primary pillar of the game....

(I am exaggerating the differences here, yes. The analogy holds, however.)

[Sception]

I'm not sure I agree with the unfocused comment. If you remove hex warrior, you still have a pretty decent set of mechanics revolving around a theme of curses. This obviously centers on the hexblade's curse feature and later level improvements to it, but even the specter can still be taken as a sort of curse or hex compelling a victim to serve you after death. Taken apart from the half baked canon fluff, this strikes me as an interesting and reasonable set of patron mechanics. More offensive and combat focused than some others, but in exchange with also limited per rest abilities where other more subtle or utility oriented patrons offer more frequent or even at will abilities. Either do the work that the writers didn't do of fleshing out hexblades into actual entities that make sense as patrons, or replace them wholesale with another curse & ghost themed patron (actual ghosts, shinigami, grim reapers, 4e style sorrowsworn, night hags might work for a curse themed warlock subclass using the hexblade's mechanics) and things work more or less fine. Again, apart from hex warrior being a fix to pact of the blade that should be part of pact of the blade, not stapled onto some arbitrary patron's existing 1st level features.

Even as is, though, it's not a big problem worth getting bent out of shape over. For all the cha synergy, warlock levels don't advance regular caster levels, and delaying access to higher level spell slots is a real cost that often gets glossed over. Wizards are still the strongest spellcasters by a good margin, and clerics aren't looking at sorlocks with especial envy either, with or without hexblade available. Paladins are strong and multiclass well with sorcerers, bards, and warlocks, hexblades especially, but even with a hex dip they aren't exactly blowing barbarians or battlemasters out of the water in terms of melee damage or tanking ability, especially given just how much martial classes get out of feats, and just how much pressure there is on a hexadin's ASIs, even with hex warrior saving them the need to raise two offensive stats simultaneously, something most other classes don't have to worry about anyway, so it's not exactly like hexadin is getting away with anything the vast bulk of classes don't already have by default.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Fiend's blasting comes from the expanded spell list, so if you want to throw Fireballs then you have to go Fiend and many people consider Fireball the #1 blasting spell. However since you are limited in spell slots I tend to find it better to not use my spell slots of things like Fireball. But this is probably dependent on adventure day length, if you can short rest when you run out of spell slots then I can see Fiend being a prime blaster, but that hasn't been my experience.

Okay, then what makes them worse than Archfey, Celestial, GOO or Undying as a blaster? Those subclasses don't get better blasting in their expanded spell list and none of their abilities offer them additional damage. Fiend has a capstone feature that does damage equivalent to a high level spell (7+ which is something typically limited to per long rest anyway) of a good type for no save while also taking the target out of the combat for a turn.

I'm glad you noted at least that this is based on your own experience. Short rest classes don't always shine in everyones games, it's a longstanding and long debated problem, but our experiences don't change that on paper Fiend and Hexblade are only competing with each other for top blaster Warlock and Hexblade offers a lot more early than Fiend does.

[Sorinth]

Okay, then what makes them worse than Archfey, Celestial, GOO or Undying as a blaster? Those subclasses don't get better blasting in their expanded spell list and none of their abilities offer them additional damage. Fiend has a capstone feature that does damage equivalent to a high level spell (7+ which is something typically limited to per long rest anyway) of a good type for no save while also taking the target out of the combat for a turn.

I'm glad you noted at least that this is based on your own experience. Short rest classes don't always shine in everyones games, it's a longstanding and long debated problem, but our experiences don't change that on paper Fiend and Hexblade are only competing with each other for top blaster Warlock and Hexblade offers a lot more early than Fiend does.

In the post you quoted I actually answered that in the section you cut out.

It's not that they do more damage, it's that they get abilities that are more useful overall. Fey Presence + Misty Escape is very good for a blaster because creatures can and do get past the tank and attack the back lines. Being able to escape from that is a lot more useful then having a better AC. The others generally offer some versatility which again I find to me more useful to a blaster overall then doing marginally more damage.

And for the record it's not like I'm saying some Patrons are good/bad for a blaster. They are pretty much equivalent but I'd give a slight edge for some over others.

[ad_hoc]

They uniquely aren't.

As the only ranged weapon without the ammunition property, you can use them to make melee attacks without any penalties whatsoever.


Did a quick dive on these rules in another thread, and I was under the same mistaken impression until I sat down and read through all the relevant tags for darts. Unless there was later errata.

They are quite marvelous little exceptions.

They are improvised weapons when used in melee.

Pg 148 under heading: Improvised Weapons - "If a character uses a ranged weapon to make a melee attack...it deals 1d4 damage."

The implication is that it is an improvised weapon as it falls under the rules listed in the heading 'improvised weapons'. Just because the Ammunition property makes those weapons improvised when used for melee attacks does not mean that other weapons aren't improvised weapons when used for purposes they are not designed for.

One exception does not limit other exceptions.

Even if they weren't improvised weapons, daggers are simply superior as they have the same qualities but are both light and able to be used with strength.

[Aimeryan]

I do think mechanically hexblade gives too much at level 1, mostly because it's patching an issue with pact of the blade with 'hex warrior', and that patch doesn't replace anything, it's just pasted on top of what is otherwise a fully functional warlock patron. Take hex warrior out of hexblade, paste is into pact of the blade, and things work better, though level 1 to 2 of pure hexblade gets rather awkward.

What most people seem to object to is the supposed 'Sadness' that it allows for cha classes and that I don't get. First of all, it's only offensive sadness, and almost all classes are offensively SAD by default. The champion fighter uses Strength for both their melee attacks and the save DCs of their maneuvers. Wizards, clerics, sorcerers, and blasty warlocks use the same casting stats for theor cantrip spell attacks and their spell save DCs. Rogues use Dex for all their attacks, Barbarians use strength for everything, etc.

The only exceptions are monks and half or third casters, and it's very easy to make the argument that these exceptions are the problems. Especially since even if you fix the offensive MADness of these classes, they still need multiple stats for defence.

A hexblade still needs 14 dex for medium armor for their AC, or 15 strength for heavy armor if they have heavy armor proficiency. They still need constitution, both as a melee combatant who needs more HP than a back line archer or spell slinger and as a caster who needs to pass concentration saves or lose their best spells. Arguably the only classes with as much dependance on Constitution are clerics, paladins, and the exceptionally rare barbarian who actually tries to fight unarmored.

In this sense, a hexblade - including paladins & melee bards who dip hexblade - are still significantly less SAD than, say, a fighter or rogue, who's singular offensive stats are also used for their AC.


My point is that yeah, hexblade is awkward and overly front loaded, and tacking a fix to a third level pact boon onto the first level features of what is otherwise a fully functional patron independent of that patch was a bad idea. But if you're worried about the whole SADness thing, you really shouldn't.


The biggest problem with hexblade is the same as with bladesinger and valor bard and war cleric, and that's the issue that a subclass splashing a bit of melee into a full caster class just does not work aa well as the reverse. A little bit of casting adds a ton of versatility to a melee class, while a little bit of swording adds next to nothing to a full caster, who's at will attacks are already well covered by scaling cantrips which can be safely cast from a distance, and you instead just end up with a caster who gets to save spell slots on defensive spells because they have better default AC due to extra armor proficiencies & other AC features.

Hexblade, along with pact of the blade, should have been a separate half-pact-caster from the start, basically. WotC's allergy to adding new classes and insistance on trying to cram too many conceptual and mechanical concepts into the too-tight confines of a subclass, then shove those subclasses up under the skirts of too few existing classes is the real problem with hexblade, and just banning hexblade doesn't get rid of that problem, because its frustrating effects can be felt all over 5e.


Pretty strongly agree with near everything Malisteen says here; the SAD part just fixes an issue the gish classes have that other classes don't have and thus I don't see it as an issue but a solution. Some magic items do the same - gauntlets of ogre power, for example, allows a Paladin to focus mainly on just Cha and Con. Meanwhile, the Wiz already focuses mainly on just Int and Con; the Fighter already focuses mainly on just Str and Con; the Rogue already focuses mainly on just Dex and Con; etc. Being MAD by default and using Hexblade to become SAD just brings them up to the same baseline as the SAD classes (except, it even cost them a level to do so).

The main issues as I see it are:

:: Shield spell and the short rest slots to spam this useful non-scaling spell by taking a one level dip not offered by the other patrons (Archfey's Faerie Fire and GOO's Tasha's being the exception). I'm not sure I would say the dip is the problem here; getting something out of a dip is sort of the point. The issue is largely most of the other patrons not offering something similar.

:: The Medium Armour and Shield proficiency without needing to be dedicated to melee - it makes sense to have this to make up for having to be in melee (all other melee classes have this or equivalent), however, Hexblade can be taken and then still go full caster. If Hexblade is meant to shore up melee warlocks then there needs to be some penalty to not using melee while being a hexblade - perhaps prohibit the Agonising Blast invocation from being taken by Hexblades. At least starting as a Fighter to get the proficiencies has a level cost.

:: Hexblade's Curse being so much better than the other patrons' equivalents - not really more to say here; needs balancing with other patrons. Could be changed for something weaker.

Again, agree with Malisteen that the melee warlock should really just have been another class.

[Bundin]

*snip*

Hexblade, along with pact of the blade, should have been a separate half-pact-caster from the start, basically. WotC's allergy to adding new classes and insistance on trying to cram too many conceptual and mechanical concepts into the too-tight confines of a subclass, then shove those subclasses up under the skirts of too few existing classes is the real problem with hexblade, and just banning hexblade doesn't get rid of that problem, because its frustrating effects can be felt all over 5e.

This sums up my main issue with 5e in general. Too often, they're hammering a square peg into a round hole, just because they can't be bothered to punch more holes. Favored Soul is another example of 'shouldn't exist as a subclass' (whether or not it should exist as a class is another discussion).

[Witty Username]

First off, I do not hate the hexblade. I like the hexblade, I do not think the hexblade is overpowered in comparison to other classes. So I am making some assumptions as to what people are reacting to.

The big thing worth pointing out is that the hexblade gets more than all the other subclasses at level 1, and about the same as they progress up/down the warlock tree. This means that often ones first question when building a warlock is 'why am I not going hexblade'. It also has as part of this problem is that the medium armor and shields is something basically any build of warlock can appreciate.

To compare and contrast, looking at the bard. Valor gets the combat gear package and the lore bard gets three additional skills, under bonus proficiencies and this has a symmetry that the warlock patrons do not have with the hexblade. the Xanathar's bards fit this model somewhat, getting additional abilities instead but they get roughly the same number of things.

This also can lead into the cha thing, warlock gets the cha to atk/dmg on weapons which no other cha caster gets, and people don't like that (or they take a level in hexblade and never look back). This admittedly is a minor problem for more martially minded casters that are not hexblade, but that is the hexblade being good at what it is supposed to be good at isn't it? And most characters will not notice a difference until 8th level or so when the primary stat is most likely going to start be pushed to the limit, if the game is using feats.

Personally, I think that this is because the warlock patrons other than hexblade have trouble keeping up, and could use some buffs or additional options to be more of a draw.

[Man_Over_Game]

That said, I think a hexblade dip is stronger than one level of cleric for the things it is going to be added to. A paladin never having to raise their Str or Dex because they are going for a sword&board build and thus one level of hexblade and putting everything in charisma is very very tasty. One level of cleric... well it certainly helps the AC of a wizard willing to take 13+ in Wisdom (plus any Str requirements the armor has, or reduce speed) and delay getting Xth-level spells (but not slots) by one level. Other than that, there are certainly ways to use them, and the individual perks are fairly decent, but nothing stands out as having quite the same level of synergy as hexblade does with the already well-regarded charisma-based classes.

I should have clarified, but I meant that targeted towards the Heavy Armor-type Clerics. Being able to get Heavy Armor and Martial Weapon proficiencies for very little investment is quite a boon.

Put another way, Hexblades are powerful for Paladins, but would a Paladin be willing to give up Heavy Armor for Cha-based weapons? I wouldn't think so. Heavy Armor is great because it allows you to bump your AC to the maximum without hardly any additional work, and anyone who cares about that really sees it pay off. I believe the only reason a Paladin can afford to pick up Cha-based attacking is due to the fact that they have Heavy Armor, and otherwise wouldn't make that investment (since they'll be needing to bump Dex too much to divert into Cha very much).

That's what Cleric affords you. Heck, you can get most of the same benefits as the Hexblade through the Nature Cleric by just picking up Shilellagh as your cantrip.


I think the reason tables like the Nature Cleric, but hate the Hexblade, is because the Nature Cleric still pushes towards a theme. It spends resources and power creep on things that enrich the table. Despite having a number of powerful benefits at the start, those do not define the Nature Cleric as a whole.

The same cannot be said of the Hexblade. It does combat and cheapens the game, starting at level 1. It continues to do that. And then continues to do that still. At no point does it do anything that doesn't come off as selfish or bland. It's for the "I want to deal lots of damage!" kind of players, without really encouraging any kind of teamwork or roleplaying.

Comparing the Cleric spell list vs. the Warlock spell list tells a similar story.

Fact is, we don't look forward to those kinds of players. They do their thing for themselves, and don't usually reciprocate any effort or energy the other players or narrative aspects spend on them. Hexblade is that player.

I'm not saying that it couldn't have done those things, but it's the fact that it's all that it does means it doesn't really add anything to most tables.

What jumps to my head is "Well, now that we have someone who's hyperfocused on damage, I guess I have to make combats a little bit harder and provide less story".
It's the Sharpshooter Samurai, the Draconic Elemental Adept Sorcerer, the Evocation Wizard with a dip of Fighter for armor with Lucky. It's all of the things that shift the game towards a single player's enjoyment instead of the table's, and it does so without any apology.

Even Samurai adds some noncombat stuff for Wisdom. Even the Draconic Sorcerer speaks dragon and flies. Even Evokers get the power to keep their friends safe as their primary feature.

But the Hexblade is "When I do damage, I get stuff". "When the things I am trying to kill dies..." "When I get the finishing blow..." "When I am attacked".

---------------------------------------------

It is the representation of the most selfish and boring person at the table. Which is why we hate it.

[Aimeryan]

---------------------------------------------

It is the representation of the most selfish and boring person at the table. Which is why we hate it.

Yeah, no helping you guys with something like Charisma to saves (which I can afford to pump now!), or heals to get you up when you go down, or a melee combatant providing zone of control in front of your squishy behind, oh, wait...

A Paladin is plenty supportive - the Hexblade dip allows that even more so by dropping the Strength focus. A Sorcadin with a Hexblade dip even more so with metamagic like Twin for buffs and Divine Soul subclass potential. The Hexblade level itself may not be supportive, but it pairs with classes that are and enables them to not be so MAD (which is what can force selfish play).

A pure class Hexblade is naturally going to be selfish - its kind of the Warlock theme for the most part. A lack of spell slots at any point and a small spells known list means utility and support tends to get chucked by the wayside. That is more the class than the subclass, though. Arguably, at least Hexblade Warlocsk can act as a melee damage soaker for others, while their fellow Warlocks are sat at the back.

[Sorinth]

The same cannot be said of the Hexblade. It does combat and cheapens the game, starting at level 1. It continues to do that. And then continues to do that still. At no point does it do anything that doesn't come off as selfish or bland. It's for the "I want to deal lots of damage!" kind of players, without really encouraging any kind of teamwork or roleplaying.

Comparing the Cleric spell list vs. the Warlock spell list tells a similar story.

Fact is, we don't look forward to those kinds of players. They do their thing for themselves, and don't usually reciprocate any effort or energy the other players or narrative aspects spend on them. Hexblade is that player.

I'm not saying that it couldn't have done those things, but it's the fact that it's all that it does means it doesn't really add anything to most tables.

What jumps to my head is "Well, now that we have someone who's hyperfocused on damage, I guess I have to make combats a little bit harder and provide less story".
It's the Sharpshooter Samurai, the Draconic Elemental Adept Sorcerer, the Evocation Wizard with a dip of Fighter for armor with Lucky. It's all of the things that shift the game towards a single player's enjoyment instead of the table's, and it does so without any apology.

Even Samurai adds some noncombat stuff for Wisdom. Even the Draconic Sorcerer speaks dragon and flies. Even Evokers get the power to keep their friends safe as their primary feature.

But the Hexblade is "When I do damage, I get stuff". "When the things I am trying to kill dies..." "When I get the finishing blow..." "When I am attacked".

---------------------------------------------

It is the representation of the most selfish and boring person at the table. Which is why we hate it.

It's possible that selfish players are more attracted to Hexblade then other classes but if you have a selfish player at the table I'm pretty sure you are going to hate them regardless of what class they take.

[Man_Over_Game]

Yeah, no helping you guys with something like Charisma to saves (which I can afford to pump now!), or heals to get you up when you go down, or a melee combatant providing zone of control in front of your squishy behind, oh, wait...

A Hexadin is plenty supportive - the Hexblade dip allows that even more so by dropping the Strength focus. A Sorcadin with a Hexblade dip even more so. The Hexblade level itself may not be supportive, but it pairs with classes that are and enables them to not be so MAD (which is what can force selfish play).

Let's be real, here. A Sorcerer is not taking a level into Hexblade because he's considering how to best protect his team. He wants that juicy, juicy damage.

Paladins are definitely supportive enough on their own. I'm not sure if they need Hexblade to do that, but I do agree that they do it better.

My concern is, though, is that you're defending the first level of Hexblade as to why it's acceptable content that adds to the table. And your Paladin example is very reasonable.

However, looking at the rest of the Hexblade tells a different story. One of the first things I said in that last post was about how similar the first level of Hexblade is to the Nature Cleric's, but we like the Nature Cleric because it develops into supporting the team. But now compare that to the Hexblade, and you'll see what I'm talking about.

And while I do see that Paladins have the potential for supportive play, they also have the means of selling out every supporting feature they have into benefits for themselves, through Divine Smite (which is why I hate it so much). Players should not have to choose between helping themselves or helping one another (which is why the Divination Wizard refunds you spell slots when you support your team with scouting spells).

And considering the Hexblade, as a whole, is a selfish subclass, Paladins who dip into Hexblade don't naturally strike me as the "helping" kind of Paladin. Call me paranoid, but I'm expecting you to dump 90% of your spell slots on damage if you're a Paladin with a Hexblade level, with the other 10% being Shield, but I'll look forward to when you prove me wrong.


It's possible that selfish players are more attracted to Hexblade then other classes but if you have a selfish player at the table I'm pretty sure you are going to hate them regardless of what class they take.

It's not even that. The addition of the Hexblade implies that a selfish playstyle is accepted. Intentional. "That's not a bug, that's a feature". Now a selfish player doesn't really need a reason to do anything other than be selfish...because he can't.

It leaves a bad taste in our mouth to accept that something with no theme, no party support, no noncombat support, dramatic changes to combat mechanics and builds for little effort, was accepted.

Even Totem Barbarians take a "ribbon" at level 6.

To me, it gives the idea that we should be fine if our players are murderhobos. After all, what else does being a Hexblade help you be?

[Sorinth]

It's not even that. The addition of the Hexblade implies that a selfish playstyle is accepted. Intentional. "That's not a bug, that's a feature". Now a selfish player doesn't really need a reason to do anything other than be selfish...because he can't.

It leaves a bad taste in our mouth to accept that something with no theme, no party support, no noncombat support, dramatic changes to combat mechanics and builds for little effort, was accepted.

Even Totem Barbarians take a "ribbon" at level 6.

To me, it gives the idea that we should be fine if our players are murderhobos. After all, what else does being a Hexblade help you be?

So what team friendly abilities does Champion Fighter get? If they don't pick Protection fighting style which is pretty terrible to begin with then every other ability is all about them and doing more damage in combat. Most Eldritch Knights aren't picking spells that buff teammates they are taking selfish spells. What does Open Hand monk get that isn't selfish?

[Pex]

In the post you quoted I actually answered that in the section you cut out.

It's not that they do more damage, it's that they get abilities that are more useful overall. Fey Presence + Misty Escape is very good for a blaster because creatures can and do get past the tank and attack the back lines. Being able to escape from that is a lot more useful then having a better AC. The others generally offer some versatility which again I find to me more useful to a blaster overall then doing marginally more damage.

And for the record it's not like I'm saying some Patrons are good/bad for a blaster. They are pretty much equivalent but I'd give a slight edge for some over others.

Those are limited uses and don't help when the warlock is attacked by range weapons and spells. The armor and shield are always there and help not being hit from afar. When the archfey uses his abilities, he can still be attacked in melee in another round before he has a chance to rest. The armor and shield hexblade will always have his AC. Consistent defense is a fair trade to one moment of awesome defense then mediocre to none until next rest.

[Waterdeep Merch]

The only thing I really dislike about Hexblades are conversations about the Hexblade and how ubiquitous it is.

I don't mean 'threads here on the forums', I mean how everyone, including in person, loves to suggest it for everything. Everybody thinks they're being especially clever when recommending Hexblade dips or multiclassing. I don't mind that they're right about it being a little stronger (if less flexible) than other options, I just get sick of always, always hearing the recommendation. And then I get equally as frustrated when someone mentions the numerical superiority or how you can just ignore the entire flavor of the class/subclass in favor of having the strongest build evar. I'm all for reflavoring, but the way people treat Warlock dips as an expansion pack just rubs me the wrong way.

It's like... yeah, I get it. Numbers don't lie, it's very strong. But it's also very boring and overdone to the absolute limits, and ignoring what little interesting story impact suddenly making a pact might bring just makes you the milkiest of toast.

[Man_Over_Game]

So what team friendly abilities does Champion Fighter get? If they don't pick Protection fighting style which is pretty terrible to begin with then every other ability is all about them and doing more damage in combat. Most Eldritch Knights aren't picking spells that buff teammates they are taking selfish spells. What does Open Hand monk get that isn't selfish?

Champion gets Remarkable Athlete, and an additional Fighting Style (which includes the option of the Protection Fighting Style)

Open Hand's primary feature can push a creature back, knock a creature prone, or remove a creature's reaction. All of these are things that are best utilized with, or around, allies. Otherwise, the Monk can always resort to Step of the Wind or Patient Defense if moving around a target was the actual goal. It's the difference between Shocking Grasp and the Mobile feat. The Sanctuary effect is also hard to use without working with your allies. That's not including the other things Monks get for strictly non-combat stuff, like Tongue of the Sun and Moon.

You are right about Eldritch Knights, as far as what most players do, but the subclass itself opens doors instead of closing them. Using things like Haste or Enlarge/Reduce on yourself are things that your teammates can still react to. Booming Blade is something that generally helps an ally more than yourself. But mostly, it offers most of its benefits as an alternative to attacking, which means that it's actually making you more selfless (since attacking contributes no more for your team than it does yourself). More importantly, though, it's a potential improvement off of the Fighter.


But the Hexblade only encourages attacking (which means fewer control spells), encourages landing finishing blows for yourself, and only provides defensive benefits for yourself.

Comparing it with the EK, EK's choose to be selfish by ignoring all of the features that help them support their team, while the Hexblade actually takes opportunity away from the base Warlock chassis (through enforcing attacks) that would allow the Warlock to support their team while giving nothing of that interactivity back.

It's the same reason I have disdain for Divine Smite. It converts resources that you could have used to interact with, or add interaction for, your team, in exchange for a personal scoreboard. 9 Radiant Damage at a time.

The differences is, even if a Paladin converts every spell slot he can into damage, he still has plenty of other class and subclass features that allies can interact with that he cannot "sell out". The Hexblade, and Warlock, probably couldn't say the same thing.

That last bit is surprisingly relevant.
Warlocks would be amazing non-combat casters (akin to Bards), due to their Short Rest recharging and how Short Rests are more common with fewer encounters, except for the fact that most of the Warlock spells fail to be very effective out of combat. Many invocations are especially powerful for non-combat scenarios, but they directly compete with combat alternatives (and you can survive a failed noncombat encounter).

Compared to other casters, the default Warlock has a lot going against it for noncombat scenarios and interactive effects in battle. The other Patrons add features to mitigate this problem by making the Warlock more well-rounded, while the Hexblade does the opposite. It exacerbates these problems for a casting class that's already considered "a dip class".

[Sorinth]

Champion gets Remarkable Athlete, and an additional Fighting Style (which includes the option of the Protection Fighting Style)

Open Hand's primary feature can push a creature back, knock a creature prone, or remove a creature's reaction. All of these are things that are best utilized with, or around, allies. Otherwise, the Monk can always resort to Step of the Wind or Patient Defense if moving around a target was the actual goal. It's the difference between Shocking Grasp and the Mobile feat. That's not including the other things Monks get for strictly non-combat stuff, like Tongue of the Sun and Moon.

You are right about Eldritch Knights, as far as what most players do, but the subclass itself opens doors instead of closing them. Using things like Haste or Enlarge/Reduce on yourself are things that your teammates can still react to. Booming Blade is something that generally helps an ally more than yourself. But mostly, it offers most of its benefits as an alternative to attacking, which means that it's actually making you more selfless (since attacking contributes no more for your team than it does yourself). More importantly, though, it's a potential improvement off of the Fighter.


But the Hexblade only encourages attacking (which means fewer control spells), encourages landing finishing blows for yourself, and only provides defensive benefits for yourself.

Comparing it with the EK, EK's choose to be selfish by ignoring all of the features that help them support their team, while the Hexblade actually takes opportunity away from the base Warlock chassis (through enforcing attacks) that would allow the Warlock to support their team.

How is Remarkable Athelete not a selfish me, me, me ability? And I'm willing to bet the vast majority of Champions do not take Protection style. Your saying all Hexblade features encourage attacking, yet I fail to see how Remarkable Atheletes offers the Champion another option besides attacking.

How is Open Hand knocking people prone any different from Hexblade using Eldritch Smite to knock people prone? How is Armor of Hexes a selfish feature that only provides defensive benefits for yourself but Patient Defence not? If base class features like Tongues of the Sun and Moon count as providing non selfish play why doesn't Eyes of the Runekeeper count, or any of the host of useful Invocations/Spells Warlock gets?

[Man_Over_Game]

How is Remarkable Athelete not a selfish me, me, me ability? And I'm willing to bet the vast majority of Champions do not take Protection style. Your saying all Hexblade features encourage attacking, yet I fail to see how Remarkable Atheletes offers the Champion another option besides attacking.

How is Open Hand knocking people prone any different from Hexblade using Eldritch Smite to knock people prone? How is Armor of Hexes a selfish feature that only provides defensive benefits for yourself but Patient Defence not? If base class features like Tongues of the Sun and Moon count as providing non selfish play why doesn't Eyes of the Runekeeper count, or any of the host of useful Invocations/Spells Warlock gets?

Remarkable Athlete:
You get half your proficiency to Str/Con/Dex checks that don't already get your proficiency.

It also makes you better at running jumps.

-----

These are things that add to the story. Honestly, it's hard for me to envision a way to use this feature that doesn't involve your teammates or give your teammates something to react to.

My mention on Monk's Patient Defense was meant as a mean to explain why it wouldn't need a clause for removing the target's Reaction or pushing a creature by several feet. These Open Hand features are almost definitely for another player's benefit, or at least provide tactical changes for other players to react to. It's contributing in more than just "damage I deal" and "damage I take".

Lastly, Tongues of the Sun and Moon is a forced feature. You do not get a choice to get it or not, and so you'll always have a tool ready to assist your team.

Fact is, we don't always think about what our team needs, and we have to decide what tools we have long before they're relevant. As a result, players often take more combat benefits than noncombat benefits, because they believe the combat benefits will be more valuable in the future. You don't know if you'll be teleported into the sky, but you always know there'll be a fight.

Because of the fact that features like TotSaM are forced on the player, they hold more weight than a chosen one like Eyes of the Runekeeper, especially if those chosen features compete for a combat option (which invocations often do).

Another way to look at it is the Totem Barbarian. Your level 6 choices force you into something other than combat, which means you now have a guaranteed niche. A use as something other than a murderhobo. Warlock Hexblade has no such clause or defense.



But my main point isn't that Warlocks can't be more than damage-hungry murderhobos, but that Hexblade only ever pushes Warlock further into that trope. Attacks are now more valuable, which pulls your Actions away from casting spells that'd otherwise change the battlefield. The only invocations that build off of Hexblade features are ones that are only ever useful in combat (Cloak of Flies being an odd exception), which means overall fewer noncombat invocations being taken.

I don't think that Eldritch Smite is a bad invocation. However, I notice from the recent Eldritch vs. Divine Smite debate that ES is considered as not being a powerful feature because the Warlock has a difficult time getting Advantage from his own Prone condition...which is a selfish outlook on looking at a condition. As a community, we have selfish outlooks.

I think there needs to be a conscious effort to make players work together and interact with one another (otherwise it'll never happen) and Hexblade directly contradicts that.

[Evaar]

I like the Hexblade.

On its own.

Sure the fluff is vague, but it's very easily reflavored. I actually prefer when a mechanical choice offers a theme rather than nailing down a specific backstory. That expands player agency and ownership of the character, basically by leaving blanks for them to fill in. A Battlemaster Fighter is someone who's good at fighting - it doesn't mean they're specifically a military officer, or a gladiator, or backalley brawler. It can be any of those. So the Hexblade is based around cursing things, and you figure out the rest. That's fine.

The problem is only in its capacity as a dip. I won't belabor that point, as everyone else has explained just how good it is. The only thing I want to point out is that it's the solution to just about every character build question. How can I make this gish work? A hexblade dip. How can I best exploit magic missile? A hexblade dip. How can I get medium armor and shield proficiency? A hexblade dip. How can I get some short rest spell slots for cheap uses of Shield? A hexblade dip. How can I easily expand my crit range? A hexblade dip.

As others said, in a vacuum the Hexblade is fine. It's only because its 1st level abilities work so well to patch gaps in other classes that it's tiresome. Do I want to make a Charisma/Dex medium armor wearing Oath of Heroism Paladin? Yes I do. Will that character be better with a Hexblade dip? Yup, way better. Will I feel lame showing up with a Hexblade/Paladin? Yup. But I might do it anyway, because it's just that much better.

[Sorinth]

@Man_Over_Game

RP wise it's very easy to create a selfless Hexblade and combat wise he's no more selfish then any generic fighter or barbarian.

Here's an example,
One of your ancestors made a pact with the Raven Queen that bound him and all his descendants to the Raven Queen until the Lich is defeated. However your PC doesn't know anything about that, he's from a family of knights and sure he's heard the family stories about how his ancestor fought and was killed by a Lich but that was hundreds of years ago and has no bearing on him. Your PC in every way is your standard Lawful Good Knight who thinks it's his duty to protect the weak and rescue maidens. He has no idea he's a Hexblade and doesn't consciously control his spells/abilities. At level 1 he doesn't even really know he has them, he doesn't know he's Hexblade Cursed someone, he doesn't consciously know he's used Thief of the Five Fates to cast Bane, did he actually cast Shield or did that guy just miss by himself, etc... When he eventually does use flashy spells he has no idea how it happened and is just as surprised as everyone else.

He's a V. Human who starts with Warcaster, uses a Shield and Spear and goes PAM at level 4, maybe eventually Sentinel but probably after maxing Charisma.
Invocations he'd go with False Life, Thief of Five Fates, then the Pact of the Blade ones.
Before he figures out his powers he'll probably have Hex and Hellish Rebuke, Hex he has no idea he even casts, but after a few surprise Hellish Rebuke's he'll start figuring out his powers and eventually start casting spells by choice. He'll use things like Hold Person/Monster, Counterspell, Fear, Banishment and his Thief of Five Fates.

So combat wise he's actually a very team friendly player though he works best if he's not the only front line fighter. RP wise he's your classic Lawful Good Paladin who selfless and will always help the downtrodden.


Like I said, a selfish player is going to create a selfish character regardless of Hexblade. Hexblade itself doesn't force you to play a selfish character.

[Man_Over_Game]

@Man_Over_Game

RP wise it's very easy to create a selfless Hexblade and combat wise he's no more selfish then any generic fighter or barbarian.

Here's an example,
One of your ancestors made a pact with the Raven Queen that bound him and all his descendants to the Raven Queen until the Lich is defeated. However your PC doesn't know anything about that, he's from a family of knights and sure he's heard the family stories about how his ancestor fought and was killed by a Lich but that was hundreds of years ago and has no bearing on him. Your PC in every way is your standard Lawful Good Knight who thinks it's his duty to protect the weak and rescue maidens. He has no idea he's a Hexblade and doesn't consciously control his spells/abilities. At level 1 he doesn't even really know he has them, he doesn't know he's Hexblade Cursed someone, he doesn't consciously know he's used Thief of the Five Fates to cast Bane, did he actually cast Shield or did that guy just miss by himself, etc... When he eventually does use flashy spells he has no idea how it happened and is just as surprised as everyone else.

He's a V. Human who starts with Warcaster, uses a Shield and Spear and goes PAM at level 4, maybe eventually Sentinel but probably after maxing Charisma.
Invocations he'd go with False Life, Thief of Five Fates, then the Pact of the Blade ones.
Before he figures out his powers he'll probably have Hex and Hellish Rebuke, Hex he has no idea he even casts, but after a few surprise Hellish Rebuke's he'll start figuring out his powers and eventually start casting spells by choice. He'll use things like Hold Person/Monster, Counterspell, Fear, Banishment and his Thief of Five Fates.

So combat wise he's actually a very team friendly player though he works best if he's not the only front line fighter. RP wise he's your classic Lawful Good Paladin who selfless and will always help the downtrodden.


Like I said, a selfish player is going to create a selfish character regardless of Hexblade. Hexblade itself doesn't force you to play a selfish character.

In your example, it seems like your theme is in spite of the Hexblade, not because of it. The only benefit Hexblade provides to your ability to support your team is the armor you'd need to utilize things like PAM and Sentinel. Otherwise, everything else you chose could have been picked regardless of Patron, or much even class.

[Sorinth]

Remarkable Athlete:
You get half your proficiency to Str/Con/Dex checks that don't already get your proficiency.

It also makes you better at running jumps.

-----

These are things that add to the story. Honestly, it's hard for me to envision a way to use this feature that doesn't involve your teammates or give your teammates something to react to.

Meanwhile Hexblade has good Deception, Intimidation, Persuasion checks which will certainly add to the story.


My mention on Monk's Patient Defense was meant as a mean to explain why it wouldn't need a clause for removing the target's Reaction or pushing a creature by several feet. These Open Hand features are almost definitely for another player's benefit, or at least provide tactical changes for other players to react to. It's contributing in more than just "damage I deal" and "damage I take".

Hexblade has a lot more options to providing tactical changes for other players to react to. Eldritch Smite, Grasp of Hadar, Repelling Blast.


Lastly, Tongues of the Sun and Moon is a forced feature. You do not get a choice to get it or not, and so you'll always have a tool ready to assist your team.

Fact is, we don't always think about what our team needs, and we have to decide what tools we have long before they're relevant. As a result, players often take more combat benefits than noncombat benefits, because they believe the combat benefits will be more valuable in the future. You don't know if you'll be teleported into the sky, but you always know there'll be a fight.

Because of the fact that features like TotSaM are forced on the player, they hold more weight than a chosen one like Eyes of the Runekeeper, especially if those chosen features compete for a combat option (which invocations often do).

Another way to look at it is the Totem Barbarian. Your level 6 choices force you into something other than combat, which means you now have a guaranteed niche. A use as something other than a murderhobo. Warlock Hexblade has no such clause or defense.

And Hexblade is always going to have a high charisma for those Deception, Intimidation, Persuasion checks. By default out of combat you have the face or secondary face role simply due to having a high charisma.


But my main point isn't that Warlocks can't be more than damage-hungry murderhobos, but that Hexblade only ever pushes Warlock further into that trope. Attacks are now more valuable, which pulls your Actions away from casting spells that'd otherwise change the battlefield. The only invocations that build off of Hexblade features are ones that are only ever useful in combat (Cloak of Flies being an odd exception), which means overall fewer noncombat invocations being taken.

I don't think that Eldritch Smite is a bad invocation. However, I notice from the recent Eldritch vs. Divine Smite debate that ES is considered as not being a powerful feature because the Warlock has a difficult time getting Advantage from his own Prone condition...which is a selfish outlook on looking at a condition. As a community, we have selfish outlooks.

I think there needs to be a conscious effort to make players work together and interact with one another (otherwise it'll never happen) and Hexblade directly contradicts that.

If spending your turn attacking is "selfish" then every fighter is selfish, as are most Rogues. Attacks being more valuable and your not using Eldritch Smite then it means the Hexblade actually has more flexibility to take non combat spells or spells like Dispel Magic / Counterspell. Afterall if I'm spending every round attacking, then I'm not using my spell splots and will always have one ready for that key Counterspell.

[Witty Username]

Remarkable Athlete:
You get half your proficiency to Str/Con/Dex checks that don't already get your proficiency.

It also makes you better at running jumps.

-----

These are things that add to the story. Honestly, it's hard for me to envision a way to use this feature that doesn't involve your teammates or give your teammates something to react to.


So, like a feature that allows you to disregard physical stats in favor of a stat that is normally only used in social encounters without sacrificing your preferred role in combat, like getting cha to attack and damage rolls.

I meant the last/only hexblade I played had persuasion, intimidate, and deception for a reason.

Edit: Hm, ninja'd, my apologies for having server issues.

[DevilMcam]

I don't Think Hexblade is that 'broken'. Sure it has the potential for stupid Shenanigans when multiclassing.
But as a player you can build a perfectly fine Hexblade warlock with plenty of non combat utility, a cool patron and even use the nonsensicals habilities to further the plot of your own Story just as well as you can build a dumb eldritch knight that is only good at fighting and has 0 out of combat abilities.

RPGs are all about player agency and Hexblade gives just that.
The base features of the class are packed with combat stuff, This means you basically never need to pick any combat features anywhere else.
Invocations and warlocks spells are full of interestings things to pick to explore the social and explorations pillars of the game.

when combat arise you are always at 100% efficiency because eldritch blast and your trusty sword never run out of spellslots.

And as far as Power creep goes, well I guess Healing spirit, Zealot barb, and other elven accuracy samurais are about as good at making other options irrelevant than Hexblade

[Man_Over_Game]

Meanwhile Hexblade has good Deception, Intimidation, Persuasion checks which will certainly add to the story....

...If spending your turn attacking is "selfish" then every fighter is selfish, as are most Rogues. Attacks being more valuable and your not using Eldritch Smite then it means the Hexblade actually has more flexibility to take non combat spells or spells like Dispel Magic / Counterspell. Afterall if I'm spending every round attacking, then I'm not using my spell splots and will always have one ready for that key Counterspell.

But none of those are unique to the Hexblade and only optional on the Warlock. Hexblade doesn't give you the ability to stack Charisma, but just using weapons more effectively while you stack Charisma. Weapons are the reason you do it, not Charisma.

What I meant by attacking meant to also include Eldritch Blast in that statement. You're incentivized to make attacks, rather than doing whatever you were going to do otherwise (which may have been Eldritch Blast, but Hexblade makes it much more likely).

You make a fair point about Fighters (Rogues less so, they lose a lot of combat prowess to improve skills), but I think that's more of a bad thing than something that should be an example. Attacking is an uninteresting mechanic that generally isn't adaptive or interactive, and I think it was a mistake to pigeonhole an entire class to that kind of mechanic.

And, honestly, saving a spell slot for Counterspell isn't really something worth all that much praise. Counterspell, when you're very likely to counter the target spell, is always worth more since Counterspell is a Reaction and your target's spell cost an Action. It doesn't really matter what you're doing, because being the one to cast Counterspell always puts you ahead. A wizard, casting 0-1 level spells until he counters the enemy wizard from casting a spell, is doing his job perfectly.
Casting Eldritch Blast would probably be just as relevant as swinging with your weapon if you were going for a Counterspell. Maybe more, if the enemy caster was waiting to Counterspell you.

[Sorinth]

But none of those are unique to the Hexblade and only optional on the Warlock. Hexblade doesn't give you the ability to stack Charisma, but just using weapons more effectively while you stack Charisma. Weapons are the reason you do it, not Charisma.

What I meant by attacking meant to also include Eldritch Blast in that statement. You're incentivized to make attacks, rather than doing whatever you were going to do otherwise (which may have been Eldritch Blast, but Hexblade makes it much more likely).

You make a fair point about Fighters (Rogues less so, they lose a lot of combat prowess to improve skills), but I think that's more of a bad thing than something that should be an example. Attacking is an uninteresting mechanic that generally isn't adaptive or interactive, and I think it was a mistake to pigeonhole an entire class to that kind of mechanic.

And, honestly, saving a spell slot for Counterspell isn't really something worth all that much praise. Counterspell, when you're very likely to counter the target spell, is always worth more since Counterspell is a Reaction and your target's spell cost an Action. It doesn't really matter what you're doing, because being the one to cast Counterspell always puts you ahead. A wizard, casting 0-1 level spells until he counters the enemy wizard from casting a spell, is doing his job perfectly.

I'm really not understanding your point. Every non spell casting class is incentived to spend their turns attacking whether through Archetypes or Base class features. So why is it bad or worse for that to be the case for the Hexblade?

[Sorinth]

In your example, it seems like your theme is in spite of the Hexblade, not because of it. The only benefit Hexblade provides to your ability to support your team is the armor you'd need to utilize things like PAM and Sentinel. Otherwise, everything else you chose could have been picked regardless of Patron, or much even class.

Yes armor would be a big part of it, it's a bit nonsensical to build a classic knight archetype and not have at least Medium Armor. Yes the backstory could be for any Patron, but again mechanically I need Hexblade for the armor profiencies, and on top of that since I want him to be using his abilities unconscious things like Hexblade Curse are much more thematic because they aren't flashy and don't announce themselves. I can use the curse and still have my character not actually know that. He has no idea why he's hitting the guy harder then normal, must be luck or he's just figured out his enemies moves and his superior skill is showing.

As for class, it could work with a few other classes, notably Paladin. But the same is true for pretty much every backstory/character concept. That was one of the design principles behind 5e, they wanted to make it so that a character could be represented with different character classes/backgrounds. The classic criminal Thug can be a Fighter with Criminal Background or Rogue, the Viking Skald could be a Valor Bard or a Fighter with Performer background, etc...

[Sorinth]

I don't Think Hexblade is that 'broken'. Sure it has the potential for stupid Shenanigans when multiclassing.
But as a player you can build a perfectly fine Hexblade warlock with plenty of non combat utility, a cool patron and even use the nonsensicals habilities to further the plot of your own Story just as well as you can build a dumb eldritch knight that is only good at fighting and has 0 out of combat abilities.

RPGs are all about player agency and Hexblade gives just that.
The base features of the class are packed with combat stuff, This means you basically never need to pick any combat features anywhere else.
Invocations and warlocks spells are full of interestings things to pick to explore the social and explorations pillars of the game.

when combat arise you are always at 100% efficiency because eldritch blast and your trusty sword never run out of spellslots.

And as far as Power creep goes, well I guess Healing spirit, Zealot barb, and other elven accuracy samurais are about as good at making other options irrelevant than Hexblade

Exactly, you grab 1 or 2 combat invocations and Hexblade is good to go combat wise. Spells and the other invocations are then there to do whatever out of combat shenanigans you want.

[Man_Over_Game]

I'm really not understanding your point. Every non spell casting class is incentived to spend their turns attacking whether through Archetypes or Base class features. So why is it someone bad or worse for that to be the case for the Hexblade?

Because those options either add onto attacks (to make them more than just damage) or add something other than attacks.

Instead of adding those, Hexblade takes those options away (by making things like control spells have more competition).

[Chaosmancer]

I should have clarified, but I meant that targeted towards the Heavy Armor-type Clerics. Being able to get Heavy Armor and Martial Weapon proficiencies for very little investment is quite a boon.

Put another way, Hexblades are powerful for Paladins, but would a Paladin be willing to give up Heavy Armor for Cha-based weapons? I wouldn't think so. Heavy Armor is great because it allows you to bump your AC to the maximum without hardly any additional work, and anyone who cares about that really sees it pay off. I believe the only reason a Paladin can afford to pick up Cha-based attacking is due to the fact that they have Heavy Armor, and otherwise wouldn't make that investment (since they'll be needing to bump Dex too much to divert into Cha very much).

That's what Cleric affords you. Heck, you can get most of the same benefits as the Hexblade through the Nature Cleric by just picking up Shilellagh as your cantrip.


I think the reason tables like the Nature Cleric, but hate the Hexblade, is because the Nature Cleric still pushes towards a theme. It spends resources and power creep on things that enrich the table. Despite having a number of powerful benefits at the start, those do not define the Nature Cleric as a whole.

The same cannot be said of the Hexblade. It does combat and cheapens the game, starting at level 1. It continues to do that. And then continues to do that still. At no point does it do anything that doesn't come off as selfish or bland. It's for the "I want to deal lots of damage!" kind of players, without really encouraging any kind of teamwork or roleplaying.

Comparing the Cleric spell list vs. the Warlock spell list tells a similar story.

Fact is, we don't look forward to those kinds of players. They do their thing for themselves, and don't usually reciprocate any effort or energy the other players or narrative aspects spend on them. Hexblade is that player.

I'm not saying that it couldn't have done those things, but it's the fact that it's all that it does means it doesn't really add anything to most tables.

What jumps to my head is "Well, now that we have someone who's hyperfocused on damage, I guess I have to make combats a little bit harder and provide less story".
It's the Sharpshooter Samurai, the Draconic Elemental Adept Sorcerer, the Evocation Wizard with a dip of Fighter for armor with Lucky. It's all of the things that shift the game towards a single player's enjoyment instead of the table's, and it does so without any apology.

Even Samurai adds some noncombat stuff for Wisdom. Even the Draconic Sorcerer speaks dragon and flies. Even Evokers get the power to keep their friends safe as their primary feature.

But the Hexblade is "When I do damage, I get stuff". "When the things I am trying to kill dies..." "When I get the finishing blow..." "When I am attacked".

---------------------------------------------

It is the representation of the most selfish and boring person at the table. Which is why we hate it.


I find this logic to be flawed at a fundamental level. Heck, I don't even need to look at other classes.

Fiendlock
1) When I get the final blow....
2) When I fail a roll...
3) When I finish a long rest...
4) Big damage boom

Goolock
1) I can talk to minds
2) I can defend myself
3) I can't have my mind read
4) I get a thrall

And most of the spellcasting classes, don't get abilities that help their allies. They get spells that can, but Druids don't have any class abilities that support their team mates. It is all selfishly making druids better. All the Barbarian base abilities are "Me, Myself and I", most of their subclass abilities too.

So, the hexblade isn't any more selfishly designed than most of the classes in the game, if you want to support your allies, you have to pick options to do that, and sometimes you support your allies best by being really good at something and not needing their support so they can help someone else.

[Pex]

Fact is, we don't look forward to those kinds of players. They do their thing for themselves, and don't usually reciprocate any effort or energy the other players or narrative aspects spend on them. Hexblade is that player.

I'm not saying that it couldn't have done those things, but it's the fact that it's all that it does means it doesn't really add anything to most tables.

What jumps to my head is "Well, now that we have someone who's hyperfocused on damage, I guess I have to make combats a little bit harder and provide less story".
It's the Sharpshooter Samurai, the Draconic Elemental Adept Sorcerer, the Evocation Wizard with a dip of Fighter for armor with Lucky. It's all of the things that shift the game towards a single player's enjoyment instead of the table's, and it does so without any apology.

Even Samurai adds some noncombat stuff for Wisdom. Even the Draconic Sorcerer speaks dragon and flies. Even Evokers get the power to keep their friends safe as their primary feature.

But the Hexblade is "When I do damage, I get stuff". "When the things I am trying to kill dies..." "When I get the finishing blow..." "When I am attacked".

---------------------------------------------

It is the representation of the most selfish and boring person at the table. Which is why we hate it.

Being THAT player comes in all classes, some more than others. You have the moon druid who likes to stay in animal form all day and be The Loner. You have the rogue who hides and shoots his bow for advantage to get sneak attack. If he can't get sneak attack he'll loot. He scouts and hogs the treasure he finds. You have the barbarian who just wants to kill things. He interrupts the conversation with "I attack". He ignores party plans. You have the paladin ready to smite a party member for not being as righteous as his self-righteous self. You have the cleric so determined not to be the healbot that he goes extreme and won't heal anyone at all except himself.

There is nothing about the hexblade that prevents him from being a team player. You don't need a class ability to do it.

[Witty Username]

[attempt to not straw man]
So, all classes and subclasses need something to do with their action that discourage attacks/dealing damage to enemies in favor of aiding allies. Bonus action and reaction abilities do not count for that. Even if the class already had options for more supportive options a subclass giving only aggressive options is inherently bad because it is either encouraging attacking or discouraging supportive actions. Actions that are self-defensive in nature are included among attacks and other aggressive options as they are selfish.

Since the hexblade only provides options for actions that improve ones personal survival or dealing damage to enemies it is a bad subclass.
While monks patient defense ability that only provides personal defense as a bonus action is good because it can be used in tactical ways that encourage support like absorbing reaction attacks for allies.

Also the flavor is bland.
[/attempt to not straw man]
I am not going to argue the bland flavor.

I would argue that cha to attack and damage allows characters to have more options without sacrificing a combat role, hexblade/paladin muti-class can use cha as their primary stat which means better healing and aura of protection that they wouldn't have if they where investing in str for their front line damage. Or if the player decides to play hexblade instead of fighter then they get access to warlock control/support options while still having good enough defensive features to allow for a front line role. Along with an observation that subclass combat options for the warlock tend to mean less invocations invested in dealing damage/survival and more spell slots to use with other options. Although that does require mindful players.

I would also say that in most combats I have played, at least one person needs to be doing damage, and at least one person needs to be the speed bumb. Even if those characters can do other things.

[Man_Over_Game]

I find this logic to be flawed at a fundamental level. Heck, I don't even need to look at other classes.

Fiendlock
1) When I get the final blow....
2) When I fail a roll...
3) When I finish a long rest...
4) Big damage boom

Goolock
1) I can talk to minds
2) I can defend myself
3) I can't have my mind read
4) I get a thrall

And most of the spellcasting classes, don't get abilities that help their allies. They get spells that can, but Druids don't have any class abilities that support their team mates. It is all selfishly making druids better. All the Barbarian base abilities are "Me, Myself and I", most of their subclass abilities too.

So, the hexblade isn't any more selfishly designed than most of the classes in the game, if you want to support your allies, you have to pick options to do that, and sometimes you support your allies best by being really good at something and not needing their support so they can help someone else.

I guess what I'm saying is that the only way to play the game that doesn't encourage interactivity or story is attacking strictly with the only outcome being damage.

The examples you provided have means that don't do that. Or they do do that, but they also add other aspects, too (Fiend gets control spells, Devil's Luck applies to ability checks).

Hexblade does nothing that doesn't revolve around attacking to just do damage, and encourages more of it than normal from the Warlock chassis. That is, a Hexblade is encouraged to cast spells that don't interact with allies, more than another Warlock.

[Sorinth]

Because those options either add onto attacks (to make them more than just damage) or add something other than attacks.

Instead of adding those, Hexblade takes those options away (by making things like control spells have more competition).

As has been pointed out by myself and others, the very fact that they get these damage boosts actually means that they don't need to focus their spells and invocations on damage dealing ones. The prime example probably being the Hex spell, for a Hexblade it's ironically not nearly as useful as it is for other Warlocks due to Hexblade's Curse and competition for the BA. So instead of learning Hex the Hexblade is actually probably better off with a utility spell. So in actuality rather then take options away, the extra focus on attacking leaves you with greater flexibility in spell and invocation selection.

And again how this any different for Champion fighter? All they've done is gotten a small boost to a limited set of skills and a bunch of things that make them better at fighting. And if you don't like that comparison what about Kensei Monk, or Hunter Ranger, all they get is things that encourage attacking more.

Finally I could easily argue that the Accursed Specter provides plenty of opportunities for non-combat. Having an ally be able to float through walls in order to report back the number of enemies in a room is great scouting. Use it as an intimidation tool, send it into some far part of the dungeon to create a distraction, etc...

[Christew]

I'd also point out that Hex Warrior is at will CHA damage with any single handed weapon while Shillelagh requires both a club/staff and a bonus action to cast. Not entirely comparable.

[Willie the Duck]

I should have clarified, but I meant that targeted towards the Heavy Armor-type Clerics. Being able to get Heavy Armor and Martial Weapon proficiencies for very little investment is quite a boon.

Okay, well then I stand by my position -- hexblade is still somewhat stronger, in specifically the way I mentioned (because of the different situation between wisdom and charisma based classes to capitalize on the situation). A paladin is a great example of someone that benefits quite decidedly by a 1 level dip into hexblade, and I don't see a comparable situation for the heavy armor/martial weapon cleric dip. To whom is this quite a boon? A Ranger already has martial weapons. A monk probably doesn't want to be using heavy armor (or at least it is a pretty niche build). There are definitely other ideas, perhaps a 15 str wizard/sorcerer getting heavy armor and martial weapons to pair with SCAGtrips, but that is the opposite, to my mind, of little investment (melee arcane full caster in general seems like something you either go all-in on, or don't bother with).


Put another way, Hexblades are powerful for Paladins, but would a Paladin be willing to give up Heavy Armor for Cha-based weapons? I wouldn't think so. Heavy Armor is great because it allows you to bump your AC to the maximum without hardly any additional work, and anyone who cares about that really sees it pay off. I believe the only reason a Paladin can afford to pick up Cha-based attacking is due to the fact that they have Heavy Armor, and otherwise wouldn't make that investment (since they'll be needing to bump Dex too much to divert into Cha very much).

I'm really unsure what argument this is trying to make. Why would the paladin need to give up heavy armor, and what point does that prove? If we are talking about the paladin who takes a level in hexblade, they are likely still putting a 15 in Str (or 14 in Dex, if they decide to go the medium armor route).


That's what Cleric affords you. Heck, you can get most of the same benefits as the Hexblade through the Nature Cleric by just picking up Shilellagh as your cantrip.

You really can't, because again that means you are playing a wisdom-focused character and who are these wisdom-based classes that will take the Nature cleric dip and capitalize upon it the same way as a charisma-based character can with a hexblade dip? Melee ranger I suppose*, but I'm systematically more in favor of finding ways to make a melee ranger work than in giving a paladin an additional perk.
*bonus action interference between Shillelagh and Hunter's Mark notwithstanding.

Mind you, and to clarify, I still don't think this is especially OP or anything. I just see the hexblade as an especially prevalent dipping class. Perhaps more frustrating (and where it differs significantly from a nature cleric) is that it seems better at being a dipping perk for other classes than it does as a class onto itself.


I think the reason tables like the Nature Cleric, but hate the Hexblade, is because the Nature Cleric still pushes towards a theme. It spends resources and power creep on things that enrich the table. Despite having a number of powerful benefits at the start, those do not define the Nature Cleric as a whole.

So yeah, something along these lines. You can take a nature cleric dip (although we apparently disagree on how often someone would do so), but that doesn't overshadow Nature Cleric as a class, build, or theme.


It is the representation of the most selfish and boring person at the table. Which is why we hate it.
I... er, you're on your own with that one.

[DracoKnight]

I'd also point out that Hex Warrior is at will CHA damage with any single handed weapon while Shillelagh requires both a club/staff and a bonus action to cast. Not entirely comparable.

Well, here’s the things Hex Warrior works with one one-handed weapon per day. Not that most characters swap weapons anyway. But the highest damage die of a one-handed weapon is a d8.

Shillelagh bumps your club or quarterstaff up to a d8. So their fairly comparable, other than the bonus action cost of shillelagh.

[Christew]

Well, here’s the things Hex Warrior works with one one-handed weapon per day. Not that most characters swap weapons anyway. But the highest damage die of a one-handed weapon is a d8.

Shillelagh bumps your club or quarterstaff up to a d8. So their fairly comparable, other than the bonus action cost of shillelagh.
Yes. As I said, Hex Warrior works with ANY one-handed weapon. That has implications for damage type and weapon availability.

I suppose they're "fairly comparable" provided you ignore the ways in which they are different. Good point.

[DracoKnight]

Yes. As I said, Hex Warrior works with ANY one-handed weapon. That has implications for damage type and weapon availability.

I suppose they're "fairly comparable" provided you ignore the ways in which they are different. Good point.

Yeah, and Bludgeoning damage is the best physical damage type.

And I’m on mobile. {Scrubbed}

[Chaosmancer]

I guess what I'm saying is that the only way to play the game that doesn't encourage interactivity or story is attacking strictly with the only outcome being damage.

The examples you provided have means that don't do that. Or they do do that, but they also add other aspects, too (Fiend gets control spells, Devil's Luck applies to ability checks).

Hexblade does nothing that doesn't revolve around attacking to just do damage, and encourages more of it than normal from the Warlock chassis. That is, a Hexblade is encouraged to cast spells that don't interact with allies, more than another Warlock.

*Shrug*

Wrathful Smite gives the fear effect, which can protect squishy allies.
Branding Smite counter's invisibility, allowing other characters a better chance to hit.
Banishing Smite can remove enemies from the board, protecting allies.
Elemental Weapon can be cast on other characters weapons, giving them magical weapons to fight with
Phantasmal Killer while a terrible spell, is still a control spell

Seems all of these can interact with allies, in very beneficial ways. And none of that even touches on invocations you could take or spells you could take to support your allies.

So again, I think you are just taking a knee-jerk reaction here. The Hexblade can do more than "attack and damage MOAR", players may not take that option, but it exists.

[Christew]

Yeah, and Bludgeoning damage is the best physical damage type.

And I’m on mobile. {Scrub the post, scrub the quote}

In most cases, sure. I would argue that being able to change your physical damage type is the best damage type.

I'm also on mobile and yes, autocorrect can be frustrating. {Scrubbed}

I believe that Shillelagh is simply not as versatile and powerful as Hex Warrior (BECAUSE of the restrictions to weapon choice and the required cost of a bonus action). I felt that was germane to the topic because it is a reason that people find Hexblade overpowered (especially as a single level dip). It is fine if you disagree, but the onus is on you to present why you think they are comparable {Scrubbed}.

[LudicSavant]

Heck, you can get most of the same benefits as the Hexblade through the Nature Cleric by just picking up Shilellagh as your cantrip.

Not... really.

First of all, Shillelagh and Hex Warrior aren't equal in usefulness for dips. Who's gonna want to dip for Shillelagh? Not a Druid, because they already have it. A Monk is still gonna want to max Dex either way, and can't use Shillelagh with their fists. So that basically just leaves the Ranger, who isn't especially great at the sword and board style and might have been better off being an archer anyways. And they scale less with Wis than a Paladin, Bard, or Sorcerer does with Cha (since many of the Ranger's best spells don't need Wisdom, and they don't have Wis-scaling abilities as important as a Paladin's aura or a Bard's inspiration). And the stat they're avoiding an investment in (Dexterity) is a great stat.

By contrast Hex Warrior benefits Sorcerers, Bards, and Paladins. All three actually like going sword and board already, and all three benefit more from Cha scaling than the Ranger does from Wis scaling.

Second of all, the things that Nature Cleric isn't giving you are important. Getting the Shield spell on top of a good base AC is powerful. Access to Booming Blade will make you a better frontliner. Hexblade's curse is a very potent ability 1/short rest and used in some of the most devastating combos in the game. Eldritch Blast and Invocations are quite good in their own right, and even better when combined with Hexblade's Curse. Armor of Agathys and Hex are valuable grabs for many builds.

Indeed, some of the optimized builds that dip Hexblade don't even benefit from armor+shield profs or Cha-SADness. For example, optimized Fighter builds will occasionally dip into Hexblade because Hexblade's Curse is a huge boost to Action Surge damage, Hex is great on a class that gets many attacks in a round, and Shield is valuable on characters that already have a solid base AC.

[jaappleton]

In most cases, sure. I would argue that being able to change your physical damage type is the best damage type.

I'm also on mobile and yes, autocorrect can be frustrating. {Scrub the post, scrub the quote}

I believe that Shillelagh is simply not as versatile and powerful as Hex Warrior (BECAUSE of the restrictions to weapon choice and the required cost of a bonus action). I felt that was germane to the topic because it is a reason that people find Hexblade overpowered (especially as a single level dip). It is fine if you disagree, but the onus is on you to present why you think they are comparable {Scrub the post, scrub the quote}.

{Scrubbed}

[DracoKnight]

In most cases, sure. I would argue that being able to change your physical damage type is the best damage type.

I'm also on mobile and yes, autocorrect can be frustrating. {Scrub the post, scrub the quote}


I believe that Shillelagh is simply not as versatile and powerful as Hex Warrior (BECAUSE of the restrictions to weapon choice and the required cost of a bonus action). I felt that was germane to the topic because it is a reason that people find Hexblade overpowered (especially as a single level dip). It is fine if you disagree, but the onus is on you to present why you think they are comparable {Scrub the post, scrub the quote}.

{Scrubbed}

Now to address the issue at hand, yes, the Hex Warrior ability is better than Shillelagh if the Hexblade is a dip or lacks pact of the blade. I would argue that it’s marginally better, personally. And falls behind after 5th level because Druids don’t get extra attack.

But as a 1st level dip, a nature Cleric gives Heavy Armor and Shillelagh, and a Druid gives medium armor and Shillelagh. Both are as solid a dip for WIS-classes as Hex Blade is for CHA classes, to my mind. However the issue is that there are only three WIS-casting Classes (monk is weird because their fists are better than their weapons, so Shillelagh isn’t as useful to them) that can benefit.

I, personally, feel that Hex Warrior is perceived as a problem primarily because of the amount of Charisma casters.

Was it a perfect fix for Pact of the Blade? No. Was it a step in the right direction? Yes. Should it have been an invocation? Yes.

But I’ll never tell someone they can’t take it, because playing any other type of Bladelock has always been an exercise in frustration for me. “Why am I not just casting Eldritch Blast?”

[GandalfTheWhite]

In most cases, sure. I would argue that being able to change your physical damage type is the best damage type.

I'm also on mobile and yes, autocorrect can be frustrating. {Scrub the post, scrub the quote}

I believe that Shillelagh is simply not as versatile and powerful as Hex Warrior (BECAUSE of the restrictions to weapon choice and the required cost of a bonus action). I felt that was germane to the topic because it is a reason that people find Hexblade overpowered (especially as a single level dip). It is fine if you disagree, but the onus is on you to present why you think they are comparable {Scrub the post, scrub the quote}.

{Scrubbed}

[Man_Over_Game]

I mean, Charisma-based attacking was still possible before Hexblade. Just had to pump 3 levels into the patron of your choice for Tome.

Hexblade didn't really add anything new in that regard. It just made it inexpensive, which is why I call it lazy. If Cha-based attacking was necessary to your build, 2 more levels into Warlock would have been perfectly fine for you (as it doubled your number of Warlock slots, doubled the size, and gave you invocations).

You didn't see many people doing it, because it wasn't necessary. If it was necessary, they'd get more than enough value to afford it.

There's always the possibility that players didn't know about the opportunity of using Shilellagh from Tome, believing that Hexblade was the first example of Cha-based attacking, and I can definitely understand that.

Someone mentioned it before (about Nature Cleric), but armor proficiencies aren't unique enough to not be able to get somewhere else (Dwarf racial, Valor Bard, Paladin).

If Charisma-based weapons actually mattered, you wouldn't need Hexblade.

[JumboWheat01]

I mean, Charisma-based attacking was still possible before Hexblade. Just had to pump 3 levels into the patron of your choice for Tome.

Hexblade didn't really add anything new in that regard. It just made it inexpensive, which is why I call it lazy. If Cha-based attacking was necessary to your build, 2 more levels into Warlock would have been perfectly fine for you (as it doubled your number of Warlock slots, doubled the size, and gave you invocations).

You didn't see many people doing it, because it wasn't necessary. If it was necessary, they'd get more than enough value to afford it.

The only people it really helped in that regard were those who weren't willing to take that investment. Those who didn't care enough the first time.

There's always the possibility that players didn't know about the opportunity of using Shilellagh from Tome, believing that Hexblade was the first example of Cha-based attacking, and I can definitely understand that. For most everyone else, though, if it mattered, you wouldn't need Hexblade.

I think the difference between Cha-Shilellagh (well, Shilellagh in general) and Hexblade's Cha, beyond the investment required (Tomelock 3, Lore Bard 6) is that it can be dispelled, where as the Hexblade's Cha attack cannot.

[DracoKnight]

I think the difference between Cha-Shilellagh (well, Shilellagh in general) and Hexblade's Cha, beyond the investment required (Tomelock 3, Lore Bard 6) is that it can be dispelled, where as the Hexblade's Cha attack cannot.

Okay, but if you as a DM spend the resources to dispel a shiellelagh, I think you need to rethink how you run your monsters.

[JumboWheat01]

Okay, but if you as a DM spend the resources to dispel a shiellelagh, I think you need to rethink how you run your monsters.

Doesn't Dispel Magic remove all active effects, not just one?

[DracoKnight]

Doesn't Dispel Magic remove all active effects, not just one?

Well, yes. That still strikes me as a poor resource investment. Unless shillelagh isn't the reason you're targeting the PC with the dispel.

[Man_Over_Game]

Doesn't Dispel Magic remove all active effects, not just one?

Yes, but it's kind of debatable if Shilellagh is a spell on the caster, or the weapon.

There's a distinction there, since Dispel Magic can remove all spells on a target, object, or magical effect. For example, if you were to cast it on a summoned creature of multiple, it'd only get rid of one creature.

[Benny89]

I have mixed feelings about Hexblade:

The Good:

1. Makes SAD CHA. That is what I love. I hate MAD classes and I hate half-casters because they have to split ASI between casting and mundane stat, but everyone need DEX because medium/light armors and everyone need CON because of stupid concentration. So Hexblade fixes tons of things that are bad for me in 5e (even though I still like 5e the most).
2. Actually makes true melee warlock. Pact of the Blade was a joke before Heblade. With Hexblade we can make melee warlocks that great combination between Fighter and Paladins. Combining less attacks but on-demands advantage, less slots per fight but better smites. Not only that- it ACTUALLY can make equally great range warlock
3. Makes Warlocks more interesting, because EVERY other subclass of warlock is just about Eldricht Blast spam. This one actually all routes possible- blaster, melee, range.

The Bad:

1. If you play with multiclass (who doesn't?)- its' MANDATORY (yes, It is mandatory, even if you hide behind roleplay/fluff) because it makes every CHA class better. Lore Bard with dip suddenly becomes very good early game damage dealer and get Shield, AoA, AC, SAD etc.. Paladins stop being MAD. Sorcerers get armor, shields etc. Hell Wizards get boost to Magic Missles, Clerics boosts to cantrips spam, especially combined with Aasimar race ability. And so one and so forth. It's just too much. When I don't take 1-2 level dip on CHA class I feel like I miss just too much. Because 1 level dips are perfectly fine, it doesn't push your progress too much. And dip like Hexblade is almost a sin to not take.

That's my opinion

[JumboWheat01]

Yes, but it's kind of debatable if Shilellagh is a spell on the caster, or the weapon.

There's a distinction there, since Dispel Magic can remove all spells on a target, object, or magical effect. For example, if you were to cast it on a summoned creature of multiple, it'd only get rid of one creature.

Hmm... fair points. While Shillelagh does mention that it casts on the weapon, if you drop the weapon the spell ends, implying in some part that it comes from you. Confusing.

[Zetakya]

Yes, but it's kind of debatable if Shilellagh is a spell on the caster, or the weapon.

There's a distinction there, since Dispel Magic can remove all spells on a target, object, or magical effect. For example, if you were to cast it on a summoned creature of multiple, it'd only get rid of one creature.

In all other cases, wielded objects are treated as part of the wielder.

[Whit]

I have to agree that it’s to much at lvl 1. I would also say that the lore fir hexblade needs to be better. But I would say that my main gripe with warlock is the lack of spell slots and making it more of a subclass to multi class in than a single class

Warlock changes. Spell slots increased but not as good as wizard. Maybe more like sorcerer or you have slots based on 1/2 your level rounding up.
Casting only 2 spells is just ridiculous.

As for hexblade.
Hex curse should be moved to level 3.
This wil reduce the lvl 1 multi class warlocks.

In return at level 1 a pact blade can draw a channeled weapon or a summoned pact weapon as a free action. Although you can already draw a weapon as a free action, this would help emphasize becoming a pact blade lock.

Accursed specter has nothing to do with hexblade. Better to be on a cleric , sorcerer or warlock that fit shadow or death.

level 6 replacement accursed gaze. The hexed opponent makes wisdom save vs DC or received a reduced attack rolls by 1d4. Once per short/ long rest.

[Witty Username]

A couple of thoughts on hexblade 1 vs tomelock 3.

First, one-handed weapons wielded with two-hands do not have the two-handed property so versatile weapons work with hex warrior, which gives a d10 damage to attacks. Not a big difference though.

Second, I thought that a lot of hexblade dips go to 3 anyway for pact of the blade so the can get their two-handed weapons to work, so this doesn't change the amount of dip in that case (other than the build not really working at all without hexblade). If I am strait wrong please tell me.

P.S. Grammar is an illusion, and so is Spelling.

[Christew]

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I'm here to talk about the Hexblade and I found your position poorly supported and said why.

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Now to address the issue at hand, yes, the Hex Warrior ability is better than Shillelagh if the Hexblade is a dip or lacks pact of the blade. I would argue that it’s marginally better, personally. And falls behind after 5th level because Druids don’t get extra attack.

But as a 1st level dip, a nature Cleric gives Heavy Armor and Shillelagh, and a Druid gives medium armor and Shillelagh. Both are as solid a dip for WIS-classes as Hex Blade is for CHA classes, to my mind. However the issue is that there are only three WIS-casting Classes (monk is weird because their fists are better than their weapons, so Shillelagh isn’t as useful to them) that can benefit.

I, personally, feel that Hex Warrior is perceived as a problem primarily because of the amount of Charisma casters.

Was it a perfect fix for Pact of the Blade? No. Was it a step in the right direction? Yes. Should it have been an invocation? Yes.

But I’ll never tell someone they can’t take it, because playing any other type of Bladelock has always been an exercise in frustration for me. “Why am I not just casting Eldritch Blast?”
I actually don't disagree with most of that. The margin is personal preference, and I tend to side with Ludic_Savant's earlier analysis of Nature Cleric vs Hexblade as a dip, but my original comment was in reference to Man_Over_Game's position that they were comparable.

I, personally, feel that Hexblade as a whole is perceived as problematic because of not only the number of Charisma based classes but their relative synergy and power compared to other characters (and the harped upon level one ability pool). I at no point advocated telling someone they can't take it. That is definitely up to a DM for their given game. I just wish WotC had designed it better.


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[Peelee]

The Mod on the Silver Mountain: Closed for review.

[truemane]

Metamagic Mod: Thread re-opened, with some trepidation. Please stay on topic and be civil.

[Zetakya]

To summarize, Hexblade is disliked because:

1) It's considered a lazy design fix for the evident problems with Pact of the Blade, which does nothing for Warlocks of other Patrons who might want to use Pact of the Blade.

2) The mechanics don't do a very good job of presenting the Character-with-a-cursed-weapon type of backstory that it's clearly meant to represent.

3) It's an incredibly strong 1 level dip for any Charisma based character, to the point where even non-melee CHA full casters frequently take it. The question is not "what should I take a level dip in?" but "why haven't you already dipped Hexblade?"

4) Conversely to point 1, Hexblade is also a strong Patron for Pact of the Chain and Pact of the Tome full Warlocks, which further hedges out the other Patrons.

5) The fluff for it is both badly written and setting specific.

6) It's widely seen as the Munchkin's Patron.

[Christew]

Well said.

[Benny89]

The other thing worth to mention is not the dip but whole Class. Hexblade is powerhouse when it comes to both melee, ranged and being single target spell blaster.

For example a PAM GWM Hexblade is a monster that easy rivals and surpass Zealot PAM GWM Barbarian because they get +5 to all damage from Life Drinker, also have constant advantage while giving enemies DIS-advantage (as opposed to Barbarians giving enemies advantage), runs in full armor, can use shields, Shield spell and is also a caster with a lot of great spells, even if he can't cast them often. He can also fish for Smite crits. Then there are Mystic Arcanums which give some good spells like Power Word: Stun or Foresight. If you dip 2 levels of Fighter you can achieve DPR higher than pre-20 Fighter PAM GWM. And Action Surge blends FANTASTIC with Hexblade cause everything refreshes on short rest.

Hexblade can also be build for Crossbow Expert SS, rocking 3 attacks with constant advantage (5 with Action Surge), again with enemies having disadvantage (he also can stay away from range of blindsight or tremorsight because he has 120 feet range) + being also caster and he can smite with a range attack as opposed to paladin who is limited to melee (though they can smite more per fight, but not more per day). He can also drop dragon from the sky with Smite.

What is worse is that it take only ONE invocation to get AB and each of builds above is also rocking great spell damage DPR with Hex + Curse when needed.

level 7 PAM GWM Warlock has Devil's Sight, Thirsting Blade, IPW and AB and he is both great range blaster and melee monster.

They are also great faces with high CHA and proficiencies to CHA-skills.

And he is also SAD with EVERY SINGLE THING.

Hell, you could take GWM + SS without PAM and CXBE and take Agonizing Blast. Congrats: you are melee monster with 2h sword, range monster with Longbow and spell blaster. Advantage, SAD CHA, +10 damage.

They have everything really. Pure Hexblade even without any multiclass IS a munchkin dream.

And once 14 you can move Curse to different targets for constant +5 to damage, stacking again with Life Drinker....

[Witty Username]

I would add that the strength of the hexblade, tends to outperform the other patrons even when pact of the blade and martial combat are not considered. Mostly due to medium armor increasing their lifespan overall.

[stoutstien]

I would add that the strength of the hexblade, tends to outperform the other patrons even when pact of the blade and martial combat are not considered. Mostly due to medium armor increasing their lifespan overall.

I think the shield proficiency combined with the shield spell being available Are the larger offenders. It's called the hexblade not the hex shield.

To add insult to it, they took shield away from forge cleric which actually makes a lot of sense.

[Boci]

I think the shield proficiency combined with the shield spell being available Are the larger offenders. It's called the hexblade not the hex shield.

To add insult to it, they took shield away from forge cleric which actually makes a lot of sense.

But...but...assuming point buy, without shield proficiency the hexblades would have a mere 16 AC, which puts them on equal footing to a chainmail two-handed fighter and only 1 better than a studded leather ranger. (Neither of who can cast the shield spell.)

But yeah, medium armour proficiency or shield profiency might be the better way of doing. I like the hexblade as is, because it lets me play an 8 strength hexblade 1 / fighter 19 with the character concept of a half-elf who wanted to be a knight but didn't have the strength to wield a longsword until they made a pact, but I admit that's quite the corner case.

[Chaosmancer]

I think the shield proficiency combined with the shield spell being available Are the larger offenders. It's called the hexblade not the hex shield.

To add insult to it, they took shield away from forge cleric which actually makes a lot of sense.

As has been pointed out though, Shield is a terrible spell for pure warlocks. So, most Hexblades will likely never take it from the expanded list.

A second reminder, for those who houserule it (like I do) or forgot. A Warlock's expanded spell list is not automatically added to their spells known. They have to pick them and they compete with all their other spells.

[stoutstien]

As has been pointed out though, Shield is a terrible spell for pure warlocks. So, most Hexblades will likely never take it from the expanded list.

A second reminder, for those who houserule it (like I do) or forgot. A Warlock's expanded spell list is not automatically added to their spells known. They have to pick them and they compete with all their other spells.

i really don't have a problem with the hexblade as a single class. while it is powerful it doesn't add anything more to the base warlock's tool kit and is fairly boring IMO.

[Zetakya]

i really don't have a problem with the hexblade as a single class. while it is powerful it doesn't add anything more to the base warlock's tool kit and is fairly boring IMO.

As I said above, the problem I have with it is that I'd like to have Pact of the Blade be workable with some of the other Patrons, and Hexblade squats in the way of making changes that make that possible.

[Luccan]

So, without completely making Hexblade redundant, what could we take from it to boost the Blade Pact? Since people seem to have a problem with getting physical shields on Hb at level one, Blade Pact could give shield proficiency.

[Tanarii]

I have mixed feelings about Hexblade:

The Good:

1. Makes SAD CHA. That is what I love. I hate MAD classes and I hate half-casters because they have to split ASI between casting and mundane stat, but everyone need DEX because medium/light armors and everyone need CON because of stupid concentration. So Hexblade fixes tons of things that are bad for me in 5e (even though I still like 5e the most).
2. Actually makes true melee warlock. Pact of the Blade was a joke before Heblade. With Hexblade we can make melee warlocks that great combination between Fighter and Paladins. Combining less attacks but on-demands advantage, less slots per fight but better smites. Not only that- it ACTUALLY can make equally great range warlock
3. Makes Warlocks more interesting, because EVERY other subclass of warlock is just about Eldricht Blast spam. This one actually all routes possible- blaster, melee, range.
All, three of these things are what make me upset with the Hexblade. SAD casters attacking in melee with their casting stat, the mistaken idea that pact of the blade was a joke, and the subclass making other warlocks less interesting because they're so much less in comparison.

[stoutstien]

So, without completely making Hexblade redundant, what could we take from it to boost the Blade Pact? Since people seem to have a problem with getting physical shields on Hb at level one, Blade Pact could give shield proficiency.

easy fix would move CHA to weapon attack/damage to pact of the blade 3.

[jas61292]

One thing that bothers me, not just with Hexblade, but with people's perception of Warlock is the whole idea that Pact of the Blade is underpowered at all. Its not. Not even close. It is just as powerful as it should be. Pact of the Blade gives you the ability to proficiently use any melee weapon in the game and summon it to you at will so you are never unarmed. That is perfectly on par with the other pacts, which are "get a cool familiar" and "learn some cantrips." I feel like people forget that the cool uses of the other pact boons come from invocations, not the pact itself. If pact of the blade did what it already does but also let you use your primary stat for melee or also gave armor and shields, it would be way out of line with the other boons. If a buff deserves to go anywhere, it would be in the invocations. Though I'm unconvinced that it needs a buff in the first place.

Hexblade is an issue in large part because it takes the point of view that Pact of the Blade does need a buff, and then not only gives that unnecessary buff, but gives it not through an invocation where it belongs, or even in the pact itself, but through a subclass available at level 1.

[Luccan]

easy fix would move CHA to weapon attack/damage to pact of the blade 3.

Hmm. I wasn't for that, but thinking on it it's probably the best move. Prevents brainless dipping, but Med Armor remains a good choice for Charisma casters, which I don't think is a problem

[Luccan]

One thing that bothers me, not just with Hexblade, but with people's perception of Warlock is the whole idea that Pact of the Blade is underpowered at all. Its not. Not even close. It is just as powerful as it should be. Pact of the Blade gives you the ability to proficiently use any melee weapon in the game and summon it to you at will so you are never unarmed. That is perfectly on par with the other pacts, which are "get a cool familiar" and "learn some cantrips." I feel like people forget that the cool uses of the other pact boons come from invocations, not the pact itself. If pact of the blade did what it already does but also let you use your primary stat for melee or also gave armor and shields, it would be way out of line with the other boons. If a buff deserves to go anywhere, it would be in the invocations. Though I'm unconvinced that it needs a buff in the first place.

Hexblade is an issue in large part because it takes the point of view that Pact of the Blade does need a buff, and then not only gives that unnecessary buff, but gives it not through an invocation where it belongs, or even in the pact itself, but through a subclass available at level 1.

Except that warlocks aren't natively melee warriors. They are natively casters. A free buffed utility spell and a bunch of extra cantrips are genuine boosts to what they already do. Blade Pact requires invocations to be useful to the average warlock. Also, I'd argue its invocations are worse.

[Tanarii]

One thing that bothers me, not just with Hexblade, but with people's perception of Warlock is the whole idea that Pact of the Blade is underpowered at all. Its not. Not even close. It is just as powerful as it should be. Pact of the Blade gives you the ability to proficiently use any melee weapon in the game and summon it to you at will so you are never unarmed. That is perfectly on par with the other pacts, which are "get a cool familiar" and "learn some cantrips."
Exactly. The point of Pact of the Blade isn't to turn Warlocks into melee Gish. It is to give them a slightly better option in melee. And more importantly to open up the number of magical weapons they can use.

The only real problem, as is so often the case, is multiclassing and feats seriously undercut a fairly decent class feature.

[stoutstien]

Exactly. The point of Pact of the Blade isn't to turn Warlocks into melee Gish. It is to give them a slightly better option in melee. And more importantly to open up the number of magical weapons they can use.

The only real problem, as is so often the case, is multiclassing and feats seriously undercut a fairly decent class feature.

The Biggest flaw of pact of the blade in the invocation tax. Other than book of ancient secrets for tomb the rest of the invocations feel pretty open to play style.
Blade has 2 they need if they want using a weapon to catch up to using EB with agonizing blast.

[Boci]

The Biggest flaw of pact of the blade in the invocation tax. Other than book of ancient secrets for tomb the rest of the invocations feel pretty open to play style.
Blade has 2 they need if they want using a weapon to catch up to using EB with agonizing blast.

But isn't Tanarii saying the design intent of pact of blade wasn't to let a warlock keep up with agonizing blast, but just to give them a cool weapon they could use in melee? You didn't have to become primarily melee once you took pact of the blade, you could still default to EBing from the backlines.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Exactly. The point of Pact of the Blade isn't to turn Warlocks into melee Gish. It is to give them a slightly better option in melee. And more importantly to open up the number of magical weapons they can use.

The only real problem, as is so often the case, is multiclassing and feats seriously undercut a fairly decent class feature.

I can understand a bit of this logic, Warlocks lack a decent melee range cantrip that isn't also tied to using a weapon. I'd still recommend a character goes Pact of the Tome for Shocking Grasp before they go Pact of the Blade for a melee option, one of those gives you that tool to use in melee (a better one than being able to use a sword with mediocre stats) and Pact of the Tome even gives them extra on top of that. There's also the aforementioned ability to use Shillelagh with Pact of the Tome, keying off your spellcasting stat.

I also do think that even if Pact of the Blade wasn't made for the primary purpose of making you a melee gish, it was a serious consideration when designing the pact, otherwise a feature that lets you use your bound weapon as a spellcasting focus and giving you automatic proficiency in any melee weapon of your choice would likely have not been included (that's kind of the whole pact boon isn't it). It's obvious by design that they expect you to be using your sword and spells with this pact.

But even if we're generous and say that it definitely isn't trying to make you a melee gish (I think there's a lot of evidence to support that it is at least trying to give you the option), it's not even the best pact boon for making you safer in melee.

[Zetakya]

Except that warlocks aren't natively melee warriors. They are natively casters. A free buffed utility spell and a bunch of extra cantrips are genuine boosts to what they already do. Blade Pact requires invocations to be useful to the average warlock. Also, I'd argue its invocations are worse.

Ehhh, making a deal with fell powers for physical prowess is as good (?) a backstory as making such a deal for arcane power or amazing musical ability.

[stoutstien]

But isn't Tanarii saying the design intent of pact of blade wasn't to let a warlock keep up with agonizing blast, but just to give them a cool weapon they could use in melee? You didn't have to become primarily melee once you took pact of the blade, you could still default to EBing from the backlines.

Who know what the design intent was. Hexblade was introduced the way it is now because of complaints over pact of the blade failing to live up to the image players wanted it to.

[Luccan]

Exactly. The point of Pact of the Blade isn't to turn Warlocks into melee Gish. It is to give them a slightly better option in melee. And more importantly to open up the number of magical weapons they can use.

The only real problem, as is so often the case, is multiclassing and feats seriously undercut a fairly decent class feature.

If you aren't intended to be in melee a least a decent amount of the time, opening up your options for magical melee weapons serves little purpose

[Luccan]

Ehhh, making a deal with fell powers for physical prowess is as good (?) a backstory as making such a deal for arcane power or amazing musical ability.

Not really what I was arguing. The point is it doesn't really do that until you pay an invocation tax. The other two are useful to warlocks regardless of invocation and their invocations do significantly more for you.

[jas61292]

Except that warlocks aren't natively melee warriors. They are natively casters. A free buffed utility spell and a bunch of extra cantrips are genuine boosts to what they already do.

Exactly. Warlocks are casters. Not melee warriors. Your options of pact boons involve somethings that make you better at what you do, and something that let you do new things. Its a choice of increased power in your specialty versus increased variety of talents.

Pact of the Blade, which is a single class feature and not even a whole subclass, should not be turning you into a gish. Honestly, arguing that a single feature like this should make you a good melee warrior is like saying that a Fighter should have a fighting style that makes them a good caster. Its utterly absurd on its face. Now, having a feature that enables you to head in that direction, but requires the investment of multiple invocations, yeah, that's fine and balanced. And coincidentally, that's how the base Warlock is set up by RAW.

[Zetakya]

Not really what I was arguing. The point is it doesn't really do that until you pay an invocation tax. The other two are useful to warlocks regardless of invocation and their invocations do significantly more for you.

Which is why a common suggestion is the give the ability to use CHA as the attacking stat to Pact of the Blade (either as part of the pact or as an Invocation).

[stoutstien]

Exactly. Warlocks are casters. Not melee warriors. Your options of pact boons involve somethings that make you better at what you do, and something that let you do new things. Its a choice of increased power in your specialty versus increased variety of talents.

Pact of the Blade, which is a single class feature and not even a whole subclass, should not be turning you into a gish. Honestly, arguing that a single feature like this should make you a good melee warrior is like saying that a Fighter should have a fighting style that makes them a good caster. Its utterly absurd on its face. Now, having a feature that enables you to head in that direction, but requires the investment of multiple invocations, yeah, that's fine and balanced. And coincidentally, that's how the base Warlock is set up by RAW.

Moving Cha to weapon attacks/damage wouldn't suddenly make pact of the blade stronger than The other pacts. If anything I might bring it up to match the other 2. They would still need to make a bunch of opportunity costs to make using a weapon worth it.

[Boci]

So without the ability to get cha to hit and damage, a hexblades now has to rely on their likely 14 dexterity (assuming point buy), and use a rapier and shield? So AC remains the same, but their attack drops to +4, 1d8+2, until level 3 when it becomes the same as it was by RAW? That seems...bearable for them.

[Luccan]

Which is why a common suggestion is the give the ability to use CHA as the attacking stat to Pact of the Blade (either as part of the pact or as an Invocation).

Which I agreed with earlier. The person I was responding to was insisting Blade Pact, with no adjustments, was just as good as the other pacts. I disagreed because Blade Pact does not fit with the warlock's other class abilities and even with invocations falls behind the other pacts. You and I seem to be in agreement at least that Blade Pact isn't quite up to par.

[Benny89]

Pact of the blade is a bad joke. Saying "it was giving warlocks who were not supposed to be melee a decent option in melee".

It's like sying that Shadow Blade is great spell for Wizards or Sorceres just because it gives them "decent option" in melee.

Truth is any caster in melee wants to get OUT of melee as fast as possible, probably using Misty Step, Dimension Door, Disengage etc. No caster wants to stay in melee just because they have "decent option"

Clerics are exception but they get medium/heavy armor, Toll the Dead, Spiritual Weapon and Spirit Guardians.

Sword and Valor bards also get medium armors, shields + Swords can boost their AC and they get extra attack.

Pact of the Blade was never an option for Warlock. Pact of Tome with Shelligah was better 90% of the time before that.

Hexblade was needed becaue the whole chasis is melee. Medium Armor, Shields, Curse, Hex Warrior + Warlock great advantage generation = melee.

All warlocks should have gotten medium armor from start. Then introduce Hex Wrrior as either invocation or part of Pact of The Blade.

Before Hexblade building melee warlock required too many different feats, cantrips etc. to work.

Now, it's just "pick Hexblade, congrat, you are melee".

[Zetakya]

Which I agreed with earlier. The person I was responding to was insisting Blade Pact, with no adjustments, was just as good as the other pacts. I disagreed because Blade Pact does not fit with the warlock's other class abilities and even with invocations falls behind the other pacts. You and I seem to be in agreement at least that Blade Pact isn't quite up to par.

Yeah, most of the Perception of Blade Pact's power stems from its use by Hexblade Warlocks, while it's distinctly under par on the other types. I'm unsure as to whether the use of CHA as an attack stat should require an invocation tax or not (Pact of the Blade already having a 2-invocation tax with Thirsting Blade and Improved Pact Weapon* - and that's before you get to Lifedrinker and Eldritch Smite). The UA also offers Eldritch Armour, which is incredible (and arguably broken). I'm generally against the "you must have this to do your job" type unmissable taxes.

In contrast, there are fewer exclusive invocations for Tome (2) and Chain (3) Pacts, although that also changes with the Class Features UA.

With the UA Options, Blade has 5 options*, Tome 5, Chain 5 and Talisman 3. I'm not sure that any of them are as "must have" as the Blade ones with the exception of Tome of Ancient Secrets, although I haven't played with the UA options so I can't really comment.

*Upgrades to Superior Pact Weapon or Ultimate Pact Weapon if you are using XgtE don't change the total usable invocations, because they don't stack, although they do constrain the ability to swap invocations at 9 and 15 respectively. Improved could just as easily have been written as the bonus increasing at levels 9 and 15.

[Lockwolfe]

I don’t quite understand why people are treating Warlocks like full casters. They spend most of their career with 2 spells per encounter if they’re lucky. They also have the most limited (if not outright worst) spell list out of any “full caster”.

Personally, I don’t get the Hexblade hate. I agree it’s too bloated at level 1 and overpowered as a dip. I agree with the belief that Hex Warrior should have been baked in with Pact of the Blade. Other than that? It isn’t broken. It’s the best Warlock subclass, but not by a stupid amount. Warlocks could use stronger subclasses. The flavor is vague but for me personally that allows me greater freedom over the backstory and fluff than if it was specific. I don’t even think the lore implied is that bad. The two interpretations I typically see are 1. Sentient Weapon and 2. Raven Queen, both of which make for interesting patrons.

I really like gish characters and I really like curses. Hexblade is a cool subclass for me that others ruin by using it for cheesy builds.

[stoutstien]

I don’t quite understand why people are treating Warlocks like full casters. They spend most of their career with 2 spells per encounter if they’re lucky. They also have the most limited (if not outright worst) spell list out of any “full caster”.

Personally, I don’t get the Hexblade hate. I agree it’s too bloated at level 1 and overpowered as a dip. I agree with the belief that Hex Warrior should have been baked in with Pact of the Blade. Other than that? It isn’t broken. It’s the best Warlock subclass, but not by a stupid amount. Warlocks could use stronger subclasses. The flavor is vague but for me personally that allows me greater freedom over the backstory and fluff than if it was specific. I don’t even think the lore implied is that bad. The two interpretations I typically see are 1. Sentient Weapon and 2. Raven Queen, both of which make for interesting patrons.

I really like gish characters and I really like curses. Hexblade is a cool subclass for me that others ruin by using it for cheesy builds.

All around I think celestial out preforms hexblade as a single class option.

[Lockwolfe]

All around I think celestial out preforms hexblade as a single class option.

I’m currently playing a level 10 celestial warlock. Healing Light is insane for emergency healing. It isn’t a lot of healing, but it’s a phenomenal bonus action panic button to pick up your unconscious allies. The spell list is fantastic and Celestial Resilience dishes out a total of 65 temporary hit points per rest.

There’s definitely an argument to be made.

[Trask]

I’m currently playing a level 10 celestial warlock. Healing Light is insane for emergency healing. It isn’t a lot of healing, but it’s a phenomenal bonus action panic button to pick up your unconscious allies. The spell list is fantastic and Celestial Resilience dishes out a total of 65 temporary hit points per rest.

There’s definitely an argument to be made.

I'm playing a celestial warlock as well, only level 4, but I concur that healing light is a fantastic feature. I can see this being one of the better single class warlocks.

[stoutstien]

I’m currently playing a level 10 celestial warlock. Healing Light is insane for emergency healing. It isn’t a lot of healing, but it’s a phenomenal bonus action panic button to pick up your unconscious allies. The spell list is fantastic and Celestial Resilience dishes out a total of 65 temporary hit points per rest.

There’s definitely an argument to be made.

If I had a recommended one warlock the play it would be the celestrial tome pact.

[Tanarii]

The Biggest flaw of pact of the blade in the invocation tax. Other than book of ancient secrets for tomb the rest of the invocations feel pretty open to play style.
Blade has 2 they need if they want using a weapon to catch up to using EB with agonizing blast.EB takes disadvantage if any enemies are in melee range. For any target. It doesn't need to "catch up" it needs to give your alternative a slightly better chance.

And assuming agonizing blast is an assumption. If you're going to assume that you can also assume lifedrinker and book of ancient secrets and the chain lock invocation as pact alternatives.


If you aren't intended to be in melee a least a decent amount of the time, opening up your options for magical melee weapons serves little purpose
If you can always stay out of melee range, good for you. That's all three arcane nuke caster's dream. Unfortunately it's not always possible.


I can understand a bit of this logic, Warlocks lack a decent melee range cantrip that isn't also tied to using a weapon. I'd still recommend a character goes Pact of the Tome for Shocking Grasp before they go Pact of the Blade for a melee option, one of those gives you that tool to use in melee (a better one than being able to use a sword with mediocre stats) and Pact of the Tome even gives them extra on top of that. There's also the aforementioned ability to use Shillelagh with Pact of the Tome, keying off your spellcasting stat.
Shocking Grasp doesn't work with magical weapons, and Shillelagh with a very limited subset.

[Misterwhisper]

If I had a recommended one warlock the play it would be the celestrial tome pact.

I like celestial tome so my familiar can be invisible and deliver buff spells for me.

Also, chain is just so handy for so many things.

[Zetakya]

I'd really like to try a Celestial Talisman Warlock.

Celestial Warlock is an incredibly strong party character. They work really well as part of a team, and can reasonably fulfill several roles. My old Dwarf Celestial Tome Warlock (patron: a virtuous Dwarven Ancestor) was a great character.

[sithlordnergal]

One thing that bothers me, not just with Hexblade, but with people's perception of Warlock is the whole idea that Pact of the Blade is underpowered at all. Its not. Not even close. It is just as powerful as it should be. Pact of the Blade gives you the ability to proficiently use any melee weapon in the game and summon it to you at will so you are never unarmed. That is perfectly on par with the other pacts, which are "get a cool familiar" and "learn some cantrips." I feel like people forget that the cool uses of the other pact boons come from invocations, not the pact itself. If pact of the blade did what it already does but also let you use your primary stat for melee or also gave armor and shields, it would be way out of line with the other boons. If a buff deserves to go anywhere, it would be in the invocations. Though I'm unconvinced that it needs a buff in the first place.

Hexblade is an issue in large part because it takes the point of view that Pact of the Blade does need a buff, and then not only gives that unnecessary buff, but gives it not through an invocation where it belongs, or even in the pact itself, but through a subclass available at level 1.

The problem is that the Familiar and Cantrips are stronger then being able to summon a melee weapon. I mean, lets take a look:

-----

Pact of the Chain: You can summon an Imp familiar. Seems weak at first, and I thought so too. That is, I thought so until I played in an AL game where a Pact of the Chain Warlock cheesed all of White Plume Mountain with it because:

1) Imps can cast Invisibility

2) You can dismiss and resummon your Familiar as an action

3) You do not need line of sight to resummon your familiar. You "can cause it to reappear in any unoccupied space within 30 feet of you."

4) With Voice of the Chain Master you can speak and see through your familiar without any limit on how far away you are.

That Warlock spent the entire game summoning his familiar on the other sides of doors, having it go invisible, scouting ahead without any real concern, and were often able to intimidate, persuade, sabotage, or even make a single touch attack with a spell before the party ever even had to open the door. Seriously, any time we came to a closed door, the Warlock would dismiss and resummon their Familiar on the other side of the door, make it go Invisible, then spent time scouting. He successfully managed to persuade two encounters to not fight us.

---

Next up, Pact of the Tome. What if I told you that Pact of the Tome gives you something that people complain about the Hexblade? What if I told you it gives you weapons that make you super SAD, that make it so you only need Charisma in order to attack with melee weapons? Cause it does. The SAD Warlock/Paladin build that only uses Charisma for their attacks already existed long before Hexblade appeared. The only difference is that it took Pact of the Tome to do it.

Pact of the Tome lets you choose three cantrips from any spell list, those three cantrips need not be from the same spell list, and those three cantrips are treated as Warlock spells. My suggestion for those three cantrips?

- Shillelagh
- Guidance
- Whatever the hell you want. If you really wanna be cheeky, take Booming Blade or Green Flame Blade

Congrats, you are now effectively a Blade Pact Hexblade with one of the best buff cantrips in the game. You get Charisma for your primary attack stat, Booming and Green Flame Blade let you keep up with melee damage, all you really need is Medium Armor, which can be obtained with a Feat or Multiclassing. Yes, you are technically restricted to the Staff and Club as your main weapon, but consider this. There are a multitude of powerful, magical staffs that give you a bonus to hit, bonus to damage, and extra spells. So is that really a downside?

The only thing the Pact of the Blade can do that you can't is summon a melee weapon, but whoops, you don't need that cause Eldritch Blast is only Verbal and Somatic, so any time they can summon their weapon, you can cast EB. =/

---

I want to like Pact of the Blade, I really do. It seems so cool, and awesome...but its not. Anything the Blade Pact does, Tome can do it too with the proper spell choice. Tome and Chain are also a lot more flexible then Blade Pacts. Its just a fact.

[Pex]

Yeah, most of the Perception of Blade Pact's power stems from its use by Hexblade Warlocks, while it's distinctly under par on the other types. I'm unsure as to whether the use of CHA as an attack stat should require an invocation tax or not (Pact of the Blade already having a 2-invocation tax with Thirsting Blade and Improved Pact Weapon* - and that's before you get to Lifedrinker and Eldritch Smite). The UA also offers Eldritch Armour, which is incredible (and arguably broken). I'm generally against the "you must have this to do your job" type unmissable taxes.



I don't find Improved Pact Weapon to be a tax. It's nice to have but not a must have. Your blade pact weapon already counts as magical, and when you eventually get a magic weapon that'll be your Pact weapon, so the +1 is only good at the early levels. The only reason to take it as a necessity is if you want to use a bow. However, being a Blade Pact does not prevent you from casting Eldritch Blast, so you can have Agonizing Eldritch Blast (every warlock's tax) just like every other warlock for your range attack needs. If you need a bow for the personal perception of your character by all means take the invocation, but that is personal choice not a must have tax.

[sithlordnergal]

Shocking Grasp doesn't work with magical weapons, and Shillelagh with a very limited subset.

Shillelagh may be limited with what it works on, but the items you can use with it are powerful, far more powerful than any sword you'd ever find outside of homebrewed gear. Name one sword of the same rareity as a Staff of Fire, Staff of Frost, Staff of Swarming Insects, Staff of Power, ect. Even the Staff of Charming is just as good as, if not better than, most melee weapons you'll find. And Shillelagh just makes them better for hitting people with because now its a d8, one handed weapon that uses your casting stat to strike people. Snag a shield and now you're more effective than most Sword n' Board builds because you can use your weapon to cast spells from it.

[Zetakya]

The only thing the Pact of the Blade can do that you can't is summon a melee weapon, but whoops, you don't need that cause Eldritch Blast is only Verbal and Somatic, so any time they can summon their weapon, you can cast EB. =/

Can't get a second attack as Tome. And Medium Armour Proficiency is hardly a minor thing - you have to be vHuman, Dwarf or Gith to start with that.

[Zetakya]

I don't find Improved Pact Weapon to be a tax. It's nice to have but not a must have. Your blade pact weapon already counts as magical, and when you eventually get a magic weapon that'll be your Pact weapon, so the +1 is only good at the early levels. The only reason to take it as a necessity is if you want to use a bow. However, being a Blade Pact does not prevent you from casting Eldritch Blast, so you can have Agonizing Eldritch Blast (every warlock's tax) just like every other warlock for your range attack needs. If you need a bow for the personal perception of your character by all means take the invocation, but that is personal choice not a must have tax.

I suspect there's a degree of difference in the ubiquity of magic in our respective settings, TBH.

[Misterwhisper]

Can't get a second attack as Tome. And Medium Armour Proficiency is hardly a minor thing - you have to be vHuman, Dwarf or Gith to start with that.

Don’t need second attack if you have melee cantrips, melee is not your thing, it is a backup.

Also celestial with green flame blade is pretty nice. Doesn’t really matter what pact.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Shocking Grasp doesn't work with magical weapons, and Shillelagh with a very limited subset.

I'm not really understanding what you mean here, why does it matter if shocking grasp doesn't work with melee weapons? You're contending that most Warlocks aren't trying to be a melee gish so having a good option that doesn't require you to be holding a weapon is bad how? Not to mention that, unlike melee weapons, Shocking grasp scales with your level. Sure you don't add your casting stat to the damage but the damage is comparable and it has the benefit of letting you retreat back into casting range, which is what your goal should be if you want Pact of the Blade to be recognized as an option for melee first and a melee gish second.

And I've never heard of anyone complaining that Magic Staves (which count as Quarterstaff) are weak, in fact many late game builds recommend them as the weapon of choice for Eldritch Knights, Staff of the Magi being so good that it's more than worth a multiclass investment. Staff of Striking, Staff of Defense, Staff of Power, Staff of Thunder and Lightning, the list goes on.

You know what's smaller? The list of magical weapons (not including staves) that give you benefits when you can't effectively swing them. Pact of the Blade doesn't make you noticeably better at using a Flametongue Weapon than Pact of the Chain does. The weapons that are worth attuning to and carrying around don't rely on Pact of the Blade any more than another pact either.

[sithlordnergal]

Can't get a second attack as Tome. And Medium Armour Proficiency is hardly a minor thing - you have to be vHuman, Dwarf or Gith to start with that.

No, but Booming Blade fixes the Extra Attack issue. At level 5 you start doing comparable damage to an Extra Attack, and you get riders from those cantrips to boot. Now, admittedly you will not be able to get the riders on Booming Blade to proc every time, and Green Flame Blade has the issue of being Fire damage, but you're still doing comparable damage. In fact, I can do a comparison. Lets assume we have two Warlocks, one is Pact of the Blade, one is Pact of the Tome. They both maxed out their Charisma, the Pact of the Blade maxed out their attack stat, by level 5. We will not include magical weapons or feats in this, because it keeps things a bit simpler. And finally, to simplify the weapons, we will assume a Greatsword for the Pact of the Blade, and a Shillelagh Quarterstaff for the Tome.


---Level 5---

The Pact of the Blade will do an average of 26 damage through two attacks. They have spent two Invocation to do this, Improved Pact Weapon and Thirsting Blade.

The Pact of the Tome will do an average of 14 damage with one strike, and an additional 9 points of damage if the BB goes off, for a total of 23 damage. They have spent no Invocations on their build.


---Level 12---

Pact of the Blade takes Lifedrinker. Their average damage gets a massive boost to 36, and have spent three Invocations to do this.

Pact of the Tome deals between 18 to 19 average damage, and an additional 13 to 14 damage if BB goes off, for an average of 31-33. Still have spent no invocations for this build


---Level 17, the last boost to cantrips---

Pact of the Blade hasn't changed. There are no other invocations outside of UA ones that boost the Pact of the Blade's pact weapons. They continue to do 36 damage.

Pact of the Tome now deals an average of 23 damage, with an additional 18 average damage if the BB rider procs, for a total of 41. they have still not spent a single invocation on being good at melee.

---


I think you'll notice something there. If BB's damage does not proc, then it does far less damage, but if it does proc then it does about 3 points less damage then the Blade Pact, until level 17 when it starts dealing more. A 3 damage difference is small enough to be very comparable. And even if BB doesn't proc, then that means your enemy has chosen to not move during that round, giving you a bit of battlefield control. And keep in mind, that 3 damage difference only happens if the Pact of the Blade is using a Greatsword. Booming Blade ends up being better off if you compare two warlocks that use d8 weapons. The same holds true with Green Flame Blade, only difference with that is you need at least two targets to get the most bang for your buck, which is pretty easy to do..


And its actually not that difficult to get Medium Armor. V-Human, Dwarf, and Gith start with it, a single level into Cleric, Druid, Fighter, Paladin, or Ranger can do it, or just taking Moderately Armored for a +1 to Dex or Strength and Medium Armor+Shields.


EDIT: Oh, one more thing to keep in mind with the two builds. Thanks to Shillelagh and Booming Blade, I created a Tome Warlock that used no invocations on being a melee build that is comparable to a Blades Warlock that sunk 3 Invocations into being good at melee. While I will admit, I only do comparable damage if BB's rider goes off, it is still something you need to take into account. Because if the rider doesn't go off, that means the target had to stay in one place, effectively nullifying any sort of mobility options they may have had. Its basically a grapple without having to grapple.

[Benny89]

No, but Booming Blade fixes the Extra Attack issue. At level 5 you start doing comparable damage to an Extra Attack, and you get riders from those cantrips to boot. Now, admittedly you will not be able to get the riders on Booming Blade to proc every time, and Green Flame Blade has the issue of being Fire damage, but you're still doing comparable damage. In fact, I can do a comparison. Lets assume we have two Warlocks, one is Pact of the Blade, one is Pact of the Tome. They both maxed out their Charisma, the Pact of the Blade maxed out their attack stat, by level 5. We will not include magical weapons or feats in this, because it keeps things a bit simpler. And finally, to simplify the weapons, we will assume a Greatsword for the Pact of the Blade, and a Shillelagh Quarterstaff for the Tome.


---Level 5---

The Pact of the Blade will do an average of 26 damage through two attacks. They have spent two Invocation to do this, Improved Pact Weapon and Thirsting Blade.

The Pact of the Tome will do an average of 14 damage with one strike, and an additional 9 points of damage if the BB goes off, for a total of 23 damage. They have spent no Invocations on their build.


---Level 12---

Pact of the Blade takes Lifedrinker. Their average damage gets a massive boost to 36, and have spent three Invocations to do this.

Pact of the Tome deals between 18 to 19 average damage, and an additional 13 to 14 damage if BB goes off, for an average of 31-33. Still have spent no invocations for this build


---Level 17, the last boost to cantrips---

Pact of the Blade hasn't changed. There are no other invocations outside of UA ones that boost the Pact of the Blade's pact weapons. They continue to do 36 damage.

Pact of the Tome now deals an average of 23 damage, with an additional 18 average damage if the BB rider procs, for a total of 41. they have still not spent a single invocation on being good at melee.

---


I think you'll notice something there. If BB's damage does not proc, then it does far less damage, but if it does proc then it does about 3 points less damage then the Blade Pact, until level 17 when it starts dealing more. A 3 damage difference is small enough to be very comparable. And even if BB doesn't proc, then that means your enemy has chosen to not move during that round, giving you a bit of battlefield control. And keep in mind, that 3 damage difference only happens if the Pact of the Blade is using a Greatsword. Booming Blade ends up being better off if you compare two warlocks that use d8 weapons. The same holds true with Green Flame Blade, only difference with that is you need at least two targets to get the most bang for your buck, which is pretty easy to do..


And its actually not that difficult to get Medium Armor. V-Human, Dwarf, and Gith start with it, a single level into Cleric, Druid, Fighter, Paladin, or Ranger can do it, or just taking Moderately Armored for a +1 to Dex or Strength and Medium Armor+Shields.


EDIT: Oh, one more thing to keep in mind with the two builds. Thanks to Shillelagh and Booming Blade, I created a Tome Warlock that used no invocations on being a melee build that is comparable to a Blades Warlock that sunk 3 Invocations into being good at melee. While I will admit, I only do comparable damage if BB's rider goes off, it is still something you need to take into account. Because if the rider doesn't go off, that means the target had to stay in one place, effectively nullifying any sort of mobility options they may have had. Its basically a grapple without having to grapple.

Sorry but there is no way pact of thome matches Hexblade. There is just no way.

First of all- many melee invocations require Pact of Blade. Booming Blade does NOT fix lack of extra attack. BB is only good if you can't get one. Extra attack is always better especially if you get Hex, Curse, Life Drinker, GWM. All of which benefit from Extra attack and make melee character.

"It's not that difficult to get medium armor" - really? Dwarf? Suboptimal stats, ASI behind, low CHA. Gith? Same. Single level in Druid/Fighter/Paladin? Slowing down progression towards Life Drinker, extra attack, extra slots etc. Moderetly Armor? That is a feat, that you only get every 4 levels.

Meanwhile Vuman Hexblade by level 12 has 20 CHA, 3 attacks, PAM and GWM, medium armor, SAD CHA.

There is no comparsion when it comes to melee between Hexblade and tome lock.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Sorry but there is no way pact of thome matches Hexblade. There is just no way.

First of all- many melee invocations require Pact of Blade. Booming Blade does NOT fix lack of extra attack. BB is only good if you can't get one. Extra attack is always better especially if you get Hex, Curse, Life Drinker, GWM. All of which benefit from Extra attack and make melee character.

"It's not that difficult to get medium armor" - really? Dwarf? Suboptimal stats, ASI behind, low CHA. Gith? Same. Single level in Druid/Fighter/Paladin? Slowing down progression towards Life Drinker, extra attack, extra slots etc. Moderetly Armor? That is a feat, that you only get every 4 levels.

Meanwhile Vuman Hexblade by level 12 has 20 CHA, 3 attacks, PAM and GWM, medium armor, SAD CHA.

There is no comparsion when it comes to melee between Hexblade and tome lock.

It's a comparison between Pact of the Blade and Pact of the Tome. All the tools Hexblade gives you apply relatively the same to both pact boons.

[sithlordnergal]

Sorry but there is no way pact of thome matches Hexblade. There is just no way.

First of all- many melee invocations require Pact of Blade. Booming Blade does NOT fix lack of extra attack. BB is only good if you can't get one. Extra attack is always better especially if you get Hex, Curse, Life Drinker, GWM. All of which benefit from Extra attack and make melee character.

"It's not that difficult to get medium armor" - really? Dwarf? Suboptimal stats, ASI behind, low CHA. Gith? Same. Single level in Druid/Fighter/Paladin? Slowing down progression towards Life Drinker, extra attack, extra slots etc. Moderetly Armor? That is a feat, that you only get every 4 levels.

Meanwhile Vuman Hexblade by level 12 has 20 CHA, 3 attacks, PAM and GWM, medium armor, SAD CHA.

There is no comparsion when it comes to melee between Hexblade and tome lock.


Do keep in mind that I wasn't comparing Pact of the Tome to Hexblade. I was comparing Pact of the Tome to Pact of the Blade. And while yes, Pact of the Blade can edge out Pact of the Tome melee damage wise, they have to sink more resources into their build to do it. And while yes, Extra Attack is better than BB, BB still does comparable damage to an Extra Attack that uses a greatsword. Even if BB's rider doesn't proc and you do less damage, you end up with some nice battlefield control. Because now your enemy has to choose between moving and getting hurt, and taking damage that's about on par with two Great Sword attacks, or staying still. This can be used in tandem with AoEs, like Hunger of Hadar, Wall of Fire, or any number of spells.


As for the armor, I was only mentioning other ways to get Medium Armor. That said, you did make me rethink a thing. Its actually much easier for a Tomelock to get Medium Armor without jumping through any sort of hoops. Just take Hexblade at level 1, now they have the Medium Armor. Cause Pact of the Blade doesn't give you any armor proficencies...or weapon proficencies for that matter. It just lets you summon a weapon.

That above analysis was between a standard Pact of the Blade and Pact of the Tome, I did not add in anything they might get from their level 1 pact choice, nor did I bother with spells or magical items. I just looked at a Pact of the Tome with Shillelagh and Booming Blade versus a Pact of the Blade with a Great Sword and their invocations.

[Benny89]

It's a comparison between Pact of the Blade and Pact of the Tome. All the tools Hexblade gives you apply relatively the same to both pact boons.

Yes, but let's be honest. If someone want to be Pact of Blade warlock- they will go Hexblade in 9/10 cases.

Yes, for fluff you can do everything. But those are suboptimal choices.

[stoutstien]

Now I want to make a melee focused warlock that doesn't utilize hexblade or SCAG cantrips.

[sithlordnergal]

Yes, but let's be honest. If someone want to be Pact of Blade warlock- they will go Hexblade in 9/10 cases.

Yes, for fluff you can do everything. But those are suboptimal choices.

I actually find Hexblade is better suited to Pact of the Tome. It gives you access to better armor, which is a boon for any caster, and it's abilities can be used at range, which is great for a class with d8 hit dice. And while yes, those can be suboptimal choices, the fact of the matter is that Pact of the Blade is suboptimal.

I managed to make a melee Warlock that is on par with a Pact of the Blade Warlock that uses every invocation available to it using Pact of the Tome, no feats, no multiclassing, and no invocations. I would not be able to do the same with any other full casting class. I could not take a Lore Bard and turn it into the equivalent of a Valor Bard through cantrips alone. While yes, BB would allow you to keep up with the Valor Bard's attacks, Valor Bards also gain Combat Inspiration and Battle Magic, neither of which I could replicate with a pure, single classed Lore Bard.

Same with any of the Wizard subclasses and Bladesinger. I cannot think of a way that could turn a Necromancer, Abjurationist, Divinationist, Evocationist, ect. into a Bladesinger without any form of multiclassing or feat support, outside of using Tenser's Transformation...which the Bladesinger gets too and can put it to equally good use.

[Zetakya]

Now I want to make a melee focused warlock that doesn't utilize hexblade or SCAG cantrips.

I've always thought it was a terrible shame that Celestial Warlock's damage bonus to Radiant didn't work with melee damage, so you could wield a Sun Blade as a Celestial Bladelock.

Yes, I wanted to RP a Jedi in D&D.

[Benny89]

Now I want to make a melee focused warlock that doesn't utilize hexblade or SCAG cantrips.

You can. But it will never be as good as Hexblade. That's the point that Hexblade made other warlocks inferior when it comes to Pact of the Blade. Hex as other friend here mentioned- would be better tome lock even cause he is still SAD CHA with curse and elemental weapon later to buff up that damage.

We all can make melee wizards, melee sorcerers, melee druids and so on. It can be done, but it will never be as good as dedicated melee class/subclass.

And Hexblade is in top 3 there.

I always wanted to do Tomelock Celestial. I had a chance to play one 1-4 in AL. Then I had a campaign that allowed me to play pure hexblade, and ow boy how much power difference there was.

I love Celestial theme and his features and spells. But when I try to plan another lock subclass I always feel like I gimped myself not choosing Hexblade.

And I really have no idea how that went through play testing!

[Misterwhisper]

You can. But it will never be as good as Hexblade. That's the point that Hexblade made other warlocks inferior when it comes to Pact of the Blade. Hex as other friend here mentioned- would be better tome lock even cause he is still SAD CHA with curse and elemental weapon later to buff up that damage.

We all can make melee wizards, melee sorcerers, melee druids and so on. It can be done, but it will never be as good as dedicated melee class/subclass.

And Hexblade is in top 3 there.

I always wanted to do Tomelock Celestial. I had a chance to play one 1-4 in AL. Then I had a campaign that allowed me to play pure hexblade, and ow boy how much power difference there was.

I love Celestial theme and his features and spells. But when I try to plan another lock subclass I always feel like I gimped myself not choosing Hexblade.

And I really have no idea how that went through play testing!

The same reason that Gloomstalker did.

They refuse to admit that base ranger and warlock are weak and fix their class or subclass so they just introduce a broken subclass to attempt to fix it.

[Talionis]

Yes, but let's be honest. If someone want to be Pact of Blade warlock- they will go Hexblade in 9/10 cases.

Yes, for fluff you can do everything. But those are suboptimal choices.
This is another big reason for the hate. It’s not just the Pact of the Blade builds that take Hexblade. Getting the armor and shield is so good that it helps Pact of the Chain and Pact of the Tome as well.

The easy dip for melee Paladins, Sorcerers, Bards who are Charisma focused shouldn’t be lost.

Hexblade is fine at level 12-20. It’s just overpowered at lower levels and because at low levels it can power up other classes.

This just was the wrong way to fix Pact of the Blade it’s too much at level one. It doesn’t actually require Pact of the Blade.

[Benny89]

This is another big reason for the hate. It’s not just the Pact of the Blade builds that take Hexblade. Getting the armor and shield is so good that it helps Pact of the Chain and Pact of the Tome as well.

The easy dip for melee Paladins, Sorcerers, Bards who are Charisma focused shouldn’t be lost.

Hexblade is fine at level 12-20. It’s just overpowered at lower levels and because at low levels it can power up other classes.

This just was the wrong way to fix Pact of the Blade it’s too much at level one. It doesn’t actually require Pact of the Blade.

It's not only OP on lower levels but also on high levels. On level 14 + Hexblade get's free +10 damage to all his attacks due to Life Drinker + Curse being moved from target to target as bonus action.

Not only that, but Hexblades get access to very unique and powerful buff- Elemental Weapon.

Normally they have perma advantage using their tricks like Darkness + Devil's Sight combo or Shadow Of Moil. This gives them not only advantage on attacks, but also disadvantage on enemy attacks, protects them from spells that require "in sight" and protects them from Opportunity Attacks since those require you to be able to see target.

So obviously the counter to this should be blindsight or tremorsense, right (since True Sight does not work vs SoM I skipped it)? Well, wrong.

Hexblade then simply switcher to his Elemental Weapon buff, giving him +2 bonus hit and +2d4 thunder damage (best damage type).

Now combining that with Life Drinker and Curse, we are looking at level 14 at attacks dealing 3x (5 + 5 + 5 + 2d4) + 2d10 + 1d4. That is really great DPR without adding Smite on crit (which is 19-20). It's extra 5 thunder damage vs extra 10 dmg from GWM. But he still has option. So authors really thought of it:

"Hey, we really make that Hexblade guy really strong, don't you think? Like he has advantage, SAD, melee, that awesome Curse that Jimmy designed.".

"Yeah, but don't worry. Once he meets enemy with Blindsight he will run into troubles!"

"You are right. Let's give him Elemental Weapon buff for such case!"

The good thing is, he can't cast EW from level 7th slot, though I doubt anyone would want to waste 7th slot on that. But still. Even without that he cast still just switch to Curse + Hex + AB for reliable DPR from 120 feet away. Hitting for 4d10 + 40 + 4d6 casually with advantage beyond blidsight range....

And even though people downplay (for gods know what reason) Mystic Arcanums, I still think those make Warlock super strong at level 12-20.

Like Mental Prison or Mass Suggestion aren't scary? Doesn't Forcecage auto-win tons of level 15-20 battles and warlocks gets it? Isn't Maddening Darkness just great for huge fights? Power Word Pain/Stun or Dominate Monster are boss-killers. Crown of Star + Eldricht Blast lock is DPR machine. True Polymorph or Foresight are wet dreams of any casters. Sure they don't get Wish, but come on. Wizard gets Wish but he doesn't also dish out 90+ DPR in melee (not counting potential PAM reaction attack) saving his MAs in most fights for when they really need to drop something serious. They also get Gibness which is situational but allows Warlock to counterspell anything enemy Wizard can throw at him at Tier 4. It's minimum 15 + 5 from Charisma roll on counterspell. Sure Warlocks get only 4 slots but knowing they go against someone like Lich or enemy Archmage they can counter spell enough to waste enemy in melee in that time. Yes, it's not as good as Lore Bard and yes, not as good as abjuration wizard but they have option to have it. It's also Team-Play game, so imagine having Warlock in your party with Gibness on him and 3-4 slots for Counterspell. Enemy caster is dead even if Hexblade weaknened himself by not buffing his melee power for that. Best is- one short rest and you can go waste second enemy caster.

I say MAs give more power to Hexblades than other warlocks/gishes due to fact that he is already top 3 melee characters in 5e.

Sure they get only 1 cast of each MAper day, but most caster also get 1 cast of each per day even though they know more spells, we all know there are better and worse ones and Warlocks gets to chose a lot of best spells for his Arcanum.

And he is still a melee fighter that can dish out as much damage as fully level 20 zealot barbarian while having access to level 6,7,8 and 9th spells?

And last 3 levels they can dip anything. 3 levels of Paladin for potential 22k8 super smite on crit when you are rolling 6 times per turn with 19-20 crit range?

They are OP because they can do anything. Hexblades have almost no weak points in Tier 3-4 especially with optimized build.

If that is not OP I don't know what is.

[Lockwolfe]

Not only that, but Hexblades get access to very unique and powerful buff- Elemental Weapon.

Normally they have perma advantage using their tricks like Darkness + Devil's Sight combo or Shadow Of Moil. This gives them not only advantage on attacks, but also disadvantage on enemy attacks, protects them from spells that require "in sight" and protects them from Opportunity Attacks since those require you to be able to see target.

So obviously the counter to this should be blindsight or tremorsense, right (since True Sight does not work vs SoM I skipped it)? Well, wrong.

Hexblade then simply switcher to his Elemental Weapon buff, giving him +2 bonus hit and +2d4 thunder damage (best damage type).

Now combining that with Life Drinker and Curse, we are looking at level 14 at attacks dealing 3x (5 + 5 + 5 + 2d4) + 2d10 + 1d4. That is really great DPR without adding Smite on crit (which is 19-20). It's extra 5 thunder damage vs extra 10 dmg from GWM. But he still has option. So authors really thought of it:

"Hey, we really make that Hexblade guy really strong, don't you think? Like he has advantage, SAD, melee, that awesome Curse that Jimmy designed.".

"Yeah, but don't worry. Once he meets enemy with Blindsight he will run into troubles!"

"You are right. Let's give him Elemental Weapon buff for such case!"

The good thing is, he can't cast EW from level 7th slot, though I doubt anyone would want to waste 7th slot on that. But still.


Elemental Weapon can only be used on nonmagical weapons, something pretty much every Hexblade will not be using.

[Benny89]

Elemental Weapon can only be used on nonmagical weapons, something pretty much every Hexblade will not be using.

I disagree. Every Hexblade who knows anything about his class and is building ahead will have simple Glaive/Spear as backup for such case. For your usuall advantage tricks you use your Pact Weapon, which you can just summon. Blindsight or tremorsense enemies? Just pull your normal Glaive and cast Elemental Weapon on it. Done. You are beefed up again.

Hell, Hexblade with PAM cast just then switch to Shield + Spear + EW + Curse + Life Drinker and lose little DPR but boost their AC at the same time.

They just have option/ace card for everything.

EDIT:

Reading Pact of the Blade again I think it also depends on how you read it. Because it says that your summoned weapon "This weapon counts as magical for the purpose of overcoming resistance and immunity to nonmagical attacks and damage."

It counts as magical only for overcoming resistance. But it's not magic weapon.

Especially that further it states "You can transform one magic weapon into your pact weapon by performing a special ritual while you hold the weapon. You perform the ritual over the course of 1 hour, which can be done during a short rest." which clearly distinguish magic weapon from "weapon that counts as magicla for purpose of overcoming resistance".

Up to debate.

Magic Weapon spell for example clearly states "You touch a nonmagical weapon. Until the spell ends, that weapon becomes a magic weapon with a +1 bonus to attack rolls and damage rolls."

While Pact Weapon says that it "counts as magical for purpose of overcoming resistance". But is it magic weapon?

[Lockwolfe]

I disagree. Every Hexblade who knows anything about his class and is building ahead will have simple Glaive/Spear as backup for such case. For your usuall advantage tricks you use your Pact Weapon, which you can just summon. Blindsight or tremorsense enemies? Just pull your normal Glaive and cast Elemental Weapon on it. Done. You are beefed up again.

Hell, Hexblade with PAM cast just then switch to Shield + Spear + EW + Curse + Life Drinker and lose little DPR but boost their AC at the same time.

They just have option/ace card for everything.

I'm skeptical that there are many Hexblades building themselves around this single spell, and frankly I'm not sure it's much better than other options they have.

[Benny89]

I'm skeptical that there are many Hexblades building themselves around this single spell, and frankly I'm not sure it's much better than other options they have.

It's a backup. One spell for when your advantage tricks don't work. It's actually smart considering that advantage generation is one of main Hexblades/Warlock ace cards. It's simple tactic to have backup plan for when DM thinks "ok, I have enough of this advantage, time for some blindsight enemies". And you are prepared for that too. Simple.

[Hael]

If you wrote down the thirty most powerful pure combat builds in DND5e, I’d venture to guess at least a third of them where either pure Hexblade or had Hexblade dips.

Even pure Hexblade when built correctly have damage per round values that are easily amongst the highest in the game (both sustained and nova). Couple that with high AC from Gish abilities and you have a class that would easily be considered S tier if this was a computer game.

From a DM perspective, having a group with 5 or 6 min maxed characters is annoying as they can deal with content that is a factor of two or three harder and it has a tendency of messing up tables and requiring extra effort.

Anyway, I quite like the class, but I do think it’s overtuned (or rather other classes are undertuned)

[SLOTHRPG95]

Now I want to make a melee focused warlock that doesn't utilize hexblade or SCAG cantrips.

If you're looking for fully melee-focused, this is not easy, but doable. If you're just looking for something with credible (but not crazy) melee prowess, it's pretty straightforward. I've played a Half-Elf Fighter 1/Fiendlock X with Pact of Blade before, from 4-10. Primarily a(n eldritch/AoE) blaster, but still could hold his own in melee with a maul, and the only blade-related invocation I took was Thirsting Blade, although I would have picked up Lifedrinker later had the campaign not ended right before T3. I've also played a straight Tabaxi Celestialock, Pact of Blade, up to 8th level before that campaign fell apart. Both of these were in feat-less games, and I think in T3/T4 play, you'd need GWM or the like to keep your damage output up in the later tiers of play, but again if the goal is "decent melee options for not-too-much investment," then you don't need to resort to Hexblade or SCAG cantrips.


I've always thought it was a terrible shame that Celestial Warlock's damage bonus to Radiant didn't work with melee damage, so you could wield a Sun Blade as a Celestial Bladelock.

Yes, I wanted to RP a Jedi in D&D.

A little off-topic, but I feel like this can be done best by a Monk instead of a Warlock. Githzerai Kensei can manipulate objects at a distance, move fast and jump far, parry incoming blaster fire ranged attacks, and even sense the thoughts of others. Oh! And you can eventually turn into a force ghost astral projection temporarily, without having to die first. If you're willing to have a less-glowy lightsaber, they can wield one of those longswords that cuts off a limb on a crit. I think they even do extra damage against objects, which adds to the "cut through everything" feel.

[Chaosmancer]

But isn't Tanarii saying the design intent of pact of blade wasn't to let a warlock keep up with agonizing blast, but just to give them a cool weapon they could use in melee? You didn't have to become primarily melee once you took pact of the blade, you could still default to EBing from the backlines.

Then what was the point of going pact of the Blade?

I think this is actually a good discussion, because I pretty much never see a Wizard using their quarterstaff in combat. They never have good strength, so they deal terrible damage and have a very low chance of hitting.

Proficiency alone does not make an option worth taking, and if you take Blade but just use Eldritch Blast all the time anyways because it is more damage and more accurate and more attacks... then you wasted your boon. Just take tome and grab a melee cantrip if you are worried about enemies getting in melee with you.


Exactly. Warlocks are casters. Not melee warriors. Your options of pact boons involve somethings that make you better at what you do, and something that let you do new things. Its a choice of increased power in your specialty versus increased variety of talents.

Pact of the Blade, which is a single class feature and not even a whole subclass, should not be turning you into a gish. Honestly, arguing that a single feature like this should make you a good melee warrior is like saying that a Fighter should have a fighting style that makes them a good caster. Its utterly absurd on its face. Now, having a feature that enables you to head in that direction, but requires the investment of multiple invocations, yeah, that's fine and balanced. And coincidentally, that's how the base Warlock is set up by RAW.


2 things

The Pact Boon is very similar to a subclass and the Fighter does have a subclass that makes them casters.

Secondly, even with all of the Invocations, you are worse with attacking as a pact of the blade than you are just using eldritch blast with a single invocation.

You want to go dex, since you need AC and you don't have good armor. That means rapier. With a 20 dex and 20 charisma by 12th level (which will never happen) the Rapier is +9 to hit for 2d8+2d6+20 for an average of 35 if you have both invocations and Hex.

Eldritch blast is +9 to hit for 3d10+3d6+15 which should average about 39 with only a single invocation and hex.

And, once you hit level 17, Eldritch Blast gets even more powerful.


Shocking Grasp doesn't work with magical weapons, and Shillelagh with a very limited subset.

It doesn't need to. With most caster's subpar strength and dex, it will be more accurate and deal just about as much damage as any magical weapon they can find.

Sure, it sounds great that the warlock can use a +3 dragonslaying greataxe with pact of the blade, but with a strength of 10 it is only as accurate as their spells if they have a 16 charisma.

[Tanarii]

Then what was the point of going pact of the Blade?To build a character with a backup option of melee.


Eldritch blast is +9 to hit for 3d10+3d6+15 which should average about 39 with only a single invocation and hex.
You have to account for hit chance, and EB is at disadvantage as a ranged attack while an enemy is in melee reach.



Sure, it sounds great that the warlock can use a +3 dragonslaying greataxe with pact of the blade, but with a strength of 10 it is only as accurate as their spells if they have a 16 charisma.
If your caster has a Str and Dex of 10, of course using a melee weapon is a bad idea. Yes, in that case you have to dedicate resources differently.

This isn't black or white. Hard hitting meleer vs hits like a wet noodle in melee ranged attacker aren't the only two options.

[Lockwolfe]

I’m not going to go in depth with math, so if someone wants to correct me then by all means, but I’m not convinced single-class Hexblade is more effective than a paladin. Paladins will smite more often unless your DM runs long adventuring days, they have more hit points and higher AC, and while Hexblade does little besides damage Paladins excel in healing and buffing allies (auras are amazing).

My experience both as someone who has played a Hexblade and DM’d for one has been that they are effective in combat but not broken, and they lack in utility. The largest issues are the front loading and that it’s actually better on a blastlock than a bladelock. Hexblade’s curse should have only applied to weapon attacks, imo.

[Segev]

So, without completely making Hexblade redundant, what could we take from it to boost the Blade Pact? Since people seem to have a problem with getting physical shields on Hb at level one, Blade Pact could give shield proficiency.

I think I've linked this once before, but it was a while back in this thread, and I feel that it's a relevant response here, too: This reworking (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?587734-Turning-the-Hexblade-quot-Patron-quot-into-modular-powers) is designed to make Hexblade not a thing, but to enable Warlocks intending to go Pact of the Blade to work at gishing from level 1. One of the problems with the Pact of the Blade is the way it shifts your playstyle entirely, or you were just very bad at your playstyle for the first two levels. Say what you will about Warlocks being casters, the Pact of the Blade invites gishing. Scolding players for seeing that and taking the invitation is ... counterproductive, at best.

But playing a gish comes at opportunity costs, and that's what this rework is designed to help with. I'm not 100% happy with the Invocation that gives armor proficiency, either, but I haven't yet worked out a better solution. (There's always Mage Armor, but it's specifically meant for classes who don't get "good enough for melee" armor.)

[stoutstien]

I’m not going to go in depth with math, so if someone wants to correct me then by all means, but I’m not convinced single-class Hexblade is more effective than a paladin. Paladins will smite more often unless your DM runs long adventuring days, they have more hit points and higher AC, and while Hexblade does little besides damage Paladins excel in healing and buffing allies (auras are amazing).

My experience both as someone who has played a Hexblade and DM’d for one has been that they are effective in combat but not broken, and they lack in utility. The largest issues are the front loading and that it’s actually better on a blastlock than a bladelock. Hexblade’s curse should have only applied to weapon attacks, imo.

by my math single class hex blades are deal about 38% more damage than a standard EB+ AG build if the hexblade takes PAM/GWM/thirsting blade/lifedrinker/ele weapon AND has curse up. the do about 2 higher DPR than a champion fighter /action surging with duelist and zero feats. seems like a lot of effort for little payout.

i think the lv 6 feature gets looked over a lot. having a incorporeal scout/watchman is handy

[Lockwolfe]

by my math single class hex blades are deal about 38% more damage than a standard EB+ AG build if the hexblade takes PAM/GWM/thirsting blade/lifedrinker/ele weapon AND has hex up. the do about 2 higher DPR than a champion fighter /action surging with duelist and zero feats. seems like a lot of effort for little payout.

i think the lv 6 feature gets looked over a lot. having a incorporeal scout/watchman is handy

Hexblade does better damage with two feats and two concentration spells (both on, somehow) than a character without feats and an underpowered subclass? Thirsting Blade and Lifedrinker only work on your pact weapon which isn’t compatible with elemental weapon