Lore Bard + Telekinesis - the ultimate Save or Suck spell vs Legendary Resistance.

[Benny89]

I don't know how many people know about this combo but I found it hilariously strong.

Telekinesis is opposed Ability Check. Your Charisma and enemy Strength. Charisma. Ability Check. Bard. Lore Bard. There is no save throw. And that's where Lore Bard comes in.

What we Need:

Basic Combo: Lore Bard, Level 10: Telekinesis, Jack of All Trades +2 bonus, 20 CHA, Guidance (from another party member or just from tons of multiclass/magic initiate options) and Cutting Words.

Let's start right off the bat with heavy big guns:

Telekinesis vs Adult Red Dragon: Dragon has +8 to STR, we have +7 to CHA and 1d10 Cutting Words to "cut" from Dragon check. That means Dragon with suffer on average - 5.5 to his check, bringing him to average +2.5 to STR Check.

So what we have is 10.5 + 5 + 2 +2.5 from Guidance, avg 20 vs average 14. You have pretty good chance to get a hold on level 10 on Adult Red Dragon an restrain him. Every other turn it's 17.5 vs 14 average. Best is.. there is no save throw, no Legendary Resistance. As long as target is Huge or smaller - you can grab him. And you can rotate enemy upside down so even if he manage to break your grip- he will land on head. You can also rotate him, so rotate dragon so it's head is away from party.

Now even if dragon breaks on your next action, you can try grab enemy again next turn. It's the only save or suck spell that ignores Legendary Resistance and can apply "Restrained" condition, which means no movement for enemy, disadvantage on attacks, DEX saves and your team has advantage on all attacks. Which is huge vs such enemies. No flying, no escaping.

Now, it gets better. Once you get Peerless Skill you also add 1d10 to your ability check.

Later gets better. Once you get Gibness 8th level spell you can pretty much auto-success on telekinesis because your Charisma check can't be lower than 15.

Aaaaand cherry on the top- Lucky feat will give you advantage on Ability Check if you roll low. 3 times per day. Enough to grab any boss and CC him for 3 turns.

Even better- have Warlock from your party cast Hex on target and give him Strength disadvantage on ability checks. Or even better- let your Simulacrum cast Hex on enemy if you are Hexblade/Lore Bard which is quite possible.

It's especially strong vs enemies with Legendary Resistance and when you have melee party members. Again- no save allowed ;)

It's also potent vs enemy spell casters. Their strength is super low so there is almost now way you will lose, you don't even need Cutting words probably. Pull them towards your team, rotate them and depending on initiative turn you can do a lot of things like pulling him through Prismatic Wall of your wizard or Fire Wall or through other hazard things etc. Again - you are best Telekinesis caster in game. You can late take Prismatic Wall as your level 17 Magic Secret and pull enemy through it every turn, dealing massive damage to them while keeping them restrained. They can try to counterspell, but we all know who is best at counterspelling counterspell ;)

I just wanted to share because I think this is the only save or suck spell in 5e that ignores Legendary Resistance and can apply heavy (considering LR) CC to enemy.

And I think it's dam cool to Force-Grab a Huge monster like a Jedi/Sith and restrain it like it's nothing.

EDIT: Bigby can do simillar thing but you use Hand strength instead of your own ability check so it's not as potent.

[MaxWilson]

It's disappointing that Telekinesis doesn't work on Gargantuan creatures though.

[Benny89]

It's disappointing that Telekinesis doesn't work on Gargantuan creatures though.

Yeah, it would be awesome, but still it will work on majority of monsters in 5e and majority of Legendary Resistance one. We won't be able to Force-Grab Tarasque sadly but I guess Gargantuan enemies needs to be epic :).

But then we have Forcecage for Gargantuan, though it depends on DM how he rules 4x4 vs 20 feet forcecage size. But it can work in many cases.

[MaxWilson]

Yeah, it would be awesome, but still it will work on majority of monsters in 5e and majority of Legendary Resistance one. We won't be able to Force-Grab Tarasque sadly but I guess Gargantuan enemies needs to be epic :).

But then we have Forcecage for Gargantuan, though it depends on DM how he rules 4x4 vs 20 feet forcecage size. But it can work in many cases.

If you want to control a Gargantuan creature you can however Polymorph someone into a Giant Ape (+9 to Athletics) and give them Bardic Inspiration while holding your Cutting Words in reserve. (Or you can summon CR 2 Giant Constrictor Snakes. Technically CR 1/4 Constrictor Snakes can also do the job but that's dumb.)

Giant Ape: d20 + d12 (Bardic Inspiration) + 9 (Athletics)
Ancient Red Dragon: d20 - d12 (Cutting Words) + 10 (Str)

Giant Ape wins 88% of the time, ties 2%.

Edit: can also summon Giant Ape via Conjure Fey VII instead of Polymorph.

[Benny89]

I just thought of funny combo. Get yourself a bucket. Yes, a freaking bucket, big enough so you could place your head inside. Carry it.

When you fight enemy caster, be it even a lich, rush to 30 feet range, place bucket in front of you and cast Telekinesis on Lich/Caster. Grab him, pull him towards yourself and bucket, reverse him upside down and place his head into bucket while holding him (since you maintain fine control over everything you hold using this spell). Congratulations, now he can't use any spells that requires line of sight cause he can't see anything :). And he is still restrained in your force-grip.

I know it's silly, but hey, games and fun I guess.

[Lille]

If you want to control a Gargantuan creature you can however Polymorph someone into a Giant Ape (+9 to Athletics) and give them Bardic Inspiration while holding your Cutting Words in reserve. (Or you can summon CR 2 Giant Constrictor Snakes. Technically CR 1/4 Constrictor Snakes can also do the job but that's dumb.)

Giant Ape: d20 + d12 (Bardic Inspiration) + 9 (Athletics)
Ancient Red Dragon: d20 - d12 (Cutting Words) + 10 (Str)

Giant Ape wins 88% of the time, ties 2%.

Edit: can also summon Giant Ape via Conjure Fey VII instead of Polymorph.

Are Giant Apes/Giant Constrictor Snakes large enough to be able to grapple a Gargantuan creature?

[Makorel]

Just wanted to note: You won't be using guidance on yourself because it is also concentration. Moreover I don't know when you would cast this since it also costs an action and you're probably using that for Telekinesis.

[Benny89]

Just wanted to note: You won't be using guidance on yourself because it is also concentration. Moreover I don't know when you would cast this since it also costs an action and you're probably using that for Telekinesis.

Yes, I often forget it's also conc since everyone are spammig it every minute when we play and have it :). But correct, only from other party member.

[MaxWilson]

Are Giant Apes/Giant Constrictor Snakes large enough to be able to grapple a Gargantuan creature?

Yes, they're both Huge.

[Lille]

Yes, they're both Huge.

I didn't know that. IIRC size goes Huge, then Gargantuan, then Colossal, then there's nothing else, right? Because if so, that means an Enlarged Giant Ape can grapple a Tarrasque.

I can't imagine why, but that sounds like something someone might make a movie about...

[MaxWilson]

I didn't know that. IIRC size goes Huge, then Gargantuan, then Colossal, then there's nothing else, right? Because if so, that means an Enlarged Giant Ape can grapple a Tarrasque.

I can't imagine why, but that sounds like something someone might make a movie about...

No, Gargantuan is the largest in (official) 5E. Giant Ape can already grapple a Tarrasque or Ancient Red Dragon, no Enlarge necessary.

It would be totally reasonable for a DM to create larger size categories of course.

[col_impact]

No, Gargantuan is the largest in (official) 5E. Giant Ape can already grapple a Tarrasque or Ancient Red Dragon, no Enlarge necessary.

It would be totally reasonable for a DM to create larger size categories of course.

So Shapechange permanently into Giant Ape. Cast Shilellagh on your Staff of the Woodlands Tree Form. Go to town with a giant shilellagh.

You have concentration free permanent Giant Ape form. And if you built correctly you have smite, sometimes ##DOUBLE SMITE## and ##REGENERATE 10## and ##GREAT BERRIES##. You also have PAM and Warcaster. I tend to go with Shepherd Druid to abuse Animal Shapes in an all out assault. Awakened queen bees or queen ants are good for that and fluffy as heck. ##FLIGHT OF THE VALKYRIES##


##PACIFIC RIM## ##KING KONG VS GODZILLA## ## KING OF MONSTERS## ##CLASH OF THE TITANS##

[JackPhoenix]

So Shapechange permanently into Giant Ape.

You can't, so everything after that is irrelevant, even the wrong parts.

[Keravath]

You can't, so everything after that is irrelevant, even the wrong parts.

Just curious about a related question ... if you are level 20 for example, can you use shapechange to turn into the level 20 xbow expert/sharpshooter fighter in the party who has 20 con and 160 hit points while retaining all of your casting abilities since the form can talk and has all the appendages needed to cast spells?

Shapechange only seems to require that the target be a creature and as far as I understand it all PCs and NPCs are considered creatures.

[Aeriox]

Someone can check me on this but I don’t believe you can shapechange into something with class levels.

Edit: Yeah, I checked and it has to be an average example, which means no class levels.

[JackPhoenix]

Just curious about a related question ... if you are level 20 for example, can you use shapechange to turn into the level 20 xbow expert/sharpshooter fighter in the party who has 20 con and 160 hit points while retaining all of your casting abilities since the form can talk and has all the appendages needed to cast spells?

Shapechange only seems to require that the target be a creature and as far as I understand it all PCs and NPCs are considered creatures.

"You transform into an average example of that creature, one without any class levels or the Spellcasting trait."

Average example of human is a commoner.

[Keravath]

"You transform into an average example of that creature, one without any class levels or the Spellcasting trait."

Average example of human is a commoner.

Thanks! I read the spell description but somehow missed that sentence.

[KOLE]

Just chiming in to say my favorite way to do this is Wild Sorcerer. It's native to their spell list, by the time you get the spell you probably have max Charisma, and you use Tides of Chaos to grab advantage on the ability check and Bend Luck in the same round to subtract 1d4 from your opponent's roll. Not as good as this build, but a valid competitor.

[col_impact]

You can't, so everything after that is irrelevant, even the wrong parts.

Oh indeed I can. I know the spell a lot better than you do. A trick or two. Mwahahaha.

[JNAProductions]

Oh indeed I can. I know the spell a lot better than you do. A trick or two. Mwahahaha.

You seem to play with a loose grasp of actual play, so... Yeah, I'm inclined to believe the person you're quoting over you.

[Chronos]

Quoth JackPhoenix:

"You transform into an average example of that creature, one without any class levels or the Spellcasting trait."

Average example of human is a commoner.
No, "human" has no creature listing, and so has no average example. But "Assassin" or "Veteran", for example, are creatures, and so you can shapechange into those. The fact that you don't get any class features is irrelevant, because being NPCs, they don't have any class.

[Segev]

No, "human" has no creature listing, and so has no average example. But "Assassin" or "Veteran", for example, are creatures, and so you can shapechange into those. The fact that you don't get any class features is irrelevant, because being NPCs, they don't have any class.

It does bug when this comes up. I will argue strenuously that the NPCs in the back of the book are not "creatures" so much as "templates for humanoids." They even say as much in that they suggest changing out base traits with various PCable racial traits or changing size and movement speed to make, say, a gnome acolyte or a half-orc paladin.

The fact that the entries all say "any race" in them should be a solid indicator that they're not creatures in and of themselves.

That said, I think that using them as bases for various transformation spells of their own would be cool. I think Tenser's transformation should have been a "replace your statblock" spell that made you a Champion or a Gladiator (I still need to re-read both to see which I think would be the better fit).

But shapechange and true polymorph don't give you templates or classes. I mean, would you allow either to make you a "half dragon" when it doesn't have an actual underlying base creature?

[HPisBS]

That said, I think that using them as bases for various transformation spells of their own would be cool. I think Tenser's transformation should have been a "replace your statblock" spell that made you a Champion or a Gladiator (I still need to re-read both to see which I think would be the better fit).

But shapechange and true polymorph don't give you templates or classes. I mean, would you allow either to make you a "half dragon" when it doesn't have an actual underlying base creature?

Tenser's Transformation is supposed to make you into something of a half-baked fighter, right? In which case, it would need to do less than just give you all of the fighter's features - complete with a subclass.


As for True Poly, it can kinda give you class levels, depending on what you choose. Want to fight as a Paladin? Choose Death Knight and voilà! You're now a 19th level undead Paladin. You somehow have even more class levels than you did before as a squishy 17th level wizard. (Probably because you can't smite.)

[micahaphone]

most enemy spellcasters by this level should probably have a misty step or other teleport options. So you won't be able to Piñata them necessarily, but wasted spell slots and cantrip-only turns are still in your favor.

[MaxWilson]

As for True Poly, it can kinda give you class levels, depending on what you choose. Want to fight as a Paladin? Choose Death Knight and voilà! You're now a 19th level undead Paladin. You somehow have even more class levels than you did before as a squishy 17th level wizard. (Probably because you can't smite.)

A degenerate Paladin maybe. (No pun intended, really.) You're missing all class features except Extra Attack and spellcasting.

[HPisBS]

True. It trades most of the features in for other features. I'm not familiar enough with paladins to tell whether the gained immunities, magic resistance, etc are preferable to the actual class features.

[DrKerosene]

A degenerate Paladin maybe. (No pun intended, really.) You're missing all class features except Extra Attack and spellcasting. I feel like it’s more that you’re trading away team-boosting features for “lone warrior” features.

The Death Knight gets +4d8 necrotic damage on all of its attack, which is like a free 2nd level spell slot smite on every hit (after getting the Improved Divine Smite Feature, otherwise it’s free 3rd level spell slots on every hit). I’m sure you noticed the Death Knight does get one extra 5th level spell slot too.

If your allies are polymorphed into undead (like a Dracolich) there is an aura effect against being turned. Whatever that might be worth.

You are immune to exhaustion, fear, poison, necrotic, and have magic resistance, which does seem kind of like Paladin class features. The 120ft Darkvision and inability to suffocate is nice too. Undead not being immune to disease seems funny though.

You also have proficiency with Dexterity Saves, the Parry ability (so that’s like two feats), and you’ve got stats that seem much better than normal for a level 17-19 Paladin.

And I’d say the Hellfire Orb is probably the closest thing to a replacement for Channel Divinity.

Losing skill proficiencies & oath spells does suck though.





I will argue strenuously that the NPCs in the back of the book are not "creatures" so much as "templates for humanoids." They even say as much in that they suggest changing out base traits with various PCable racial traits or changing size and movement speed to make, say, a gnome acolyte or a half-orc paladin.

The fact that the entries all say "any race" in them should be a solid indicator that they're not creatures in and of themselves.

I recall 3.5e explicitly stated there were different stat arrays (commoner, elite, and non-elite), and explained how to reverse engineer a statblock. I find the 5e “any race” is a simple solution to the tediousness of removing racial stuff from a statblock, before adding a different race (also saves page room). For example, I really like the Orc Red Hand Of Shargaas and Hobgoblin Ironshadows, but on Eladrin. The “any race” entry typically means I can start to add stuff instead of first having to subtract things.

That said, your argument doesn’t seem to address the Couatl’s ability:

Change Shape: The couatl magically polymorphs into a Humanoid or beast that has a Challenge rating equal to or less than its own...(snip) ...and it gains any Statistics and capabilities (except Class Features, legendary Actions, and lair actions) that the new form has but that it lacks.
So it can turn into an CR3 Orc Red Hand, CR2 Hobgoblin Ironshadow, and a CR2 “any race” Bandit Captain or CR3 “any race” Knight. Even a CR2 Wererat and then inflict were-ratness on actual humanoids.

I take this as a solid indicator that the NPC statblocks are technically creatures for the purpose of True Polymorph and Shapechange.

[MaxWilson]

The Death Knight gets +4d8 necrotic damage on all of its attack, which is like a free 2nd level spell slot smite on every hit (after getting the Improved Divine Smite Feature, otherwise it’s free 3rd level spell slots on every hit). I’m sure you noticed the Death Knight does get one extra 5th level spell slot too.

??? 19th level Paladins have two 5th level slots. Death Knights have two 5th level slots. I see nothing extra.

[DrKerosene]

??? 19th level Paladins have two 5th level slots. Death Knights have two 5th level slots. I see nothing extra.

A level 17 Paladin has one 5th level spell slot, but can be turned into a CR 17 Death Knight (which has 19 hit dice and a second 5th level spell slot).

[Chronos]

Hm, and the Couatl's ability to change shape doesn't have a limit on its duration. So a CR 4 couatl could change into the CR 2 Barnabus Blastwind, who casts as a 7th-level wizard, and then (if he had access to a spellbook) change what spells he had prepared to more combat-suited ones. And before anyone objects, his spellcasting is like that of a wizard, but it doesn't come from class levels, because as an NPC, he doesn't have class levels.

[DrKerosene]

Hm, and the Couatl's ability to change shape doesn't have a limit on its duration. So a CR 4 couatl could change into the CR 2 Barnabus Blastwind, who casts as a 7th-level wizard, and then (if he had access to a spellbook) change what spells he had prepared to more combat-suited ones. And before anyone objects, his spellcasting is like that of a wizard, but it doesn't come from class levels, because as an NPC, he doesn't have class levels.

I’m pretty sure there is a general rule about spell-casting being one of the few things considered to be a “class feature”, even if it doesn’t literally say “casts as an X level cleric” or other class.

So, you’d need to game the Couatl’s ability by using the Eladrin Fey Step ability, or a Duergar’s innate spell-like abilities.

[follacchioso]

Coming back to the original question, I have used this combo and it is really amazing.

One drawback is the limited range of Telekinesis, which is only 60". Most dragons are still dangerous at this range, as they can fire breath on you, potentially making you lose concentration.

Another use of this is to disarm your opponent. If you have a consistent way to stay out of their reach, and they don't have range weapons, you can remove any magic items they may have, dropping them into your hands.