Bestow Curse and Gender Identity

[Ruethgar]

This isn't for any specific game so "ask the GM" isn't really applicable. Just wondering the playground's take on how Bestow Curse using the
Girdle of Opposite Gender effect would work with varying gender identities. If we're being true to being a curse, I would think it would swap a trans person's dysphoria the other way as well, but not so much RAW. Then there is the matter of a transitioned person, would the curse return them to their original gender or pretty much just grant them the reproductive capability and automatic hormones of the gender they currently represent. Would intersex people become genderless? How might temporary magical transformation change? Obviously spells cast after the fact wouldn't be swayed by the curse, but if you curse someone who's already shapeshifted as the opposite gender, would the shapeshift change? What about with more permanent effects like Jungle's Rapture into a gendered tree such as a Date, would a curse on top of that swap their cursed form? Is the curse influenced by the caster's perception of gender? Say someone's psychic sandwitched into a blue baseball would the caster's interpretation of gender potentially turn it into a pink softball?

I realize all of this it just random, near useless ramblings, but I'm bored and want to hear some people's opinions on the matter.

[digiman619]

This isn't for any specific game so "ask the GM" isn't really applicable. Just wondering the playground's take on how Bestow Curse using the
Girdle of Opposite Gender effect would work with varying gender identities. If we're being true to being a curse, I would think it would swap a trans person's dysphoria the other way as well, but not so much RAW. Then there is the matter of a transitioned person, would the curse return them to their original gender or pretty much just grant them the reproductive capability and automatic hormones of the gender they currently represent. Would intersex people become genderless? How might temporary magical transformation change? Obviously spells cast after the fact wouldn't be swayed by the curse, but if you curse someone who's already shapeshifted as the opposite gender, would the shapeshift change? What about with more permanent effects like Jungle's Rapture into a gendered tree such as a Date, would a curse on top of that swap their cursed form? Is the curse influenced by the caster's perception of gender? Say someone's psychic sandwitched into a blue baseball would the caster's interpretation of gender potentially turn it into a pink softball?

I realize all of this it just random, near useless ramblings, but I'm bored and want to hear some people's opinions on the matter.
You have to realize that for the longest time, sex and gender were treated as synonyms. This led to gender being more commonly used as sex was seen as more risque. So a Girdle of Opposite Gender has no real effect on gender per se; it affects biological sex. So for trans folk, it'd change their current body for one that corresponds with the other biological sex, which may or may not be desired. Intersex folk would be tricky to adjudicate, I admit, though making them genderless seems feasible. Temporary physical changes would change their true form; just as polymorphing into a pixie doesn't change you a Fey creature, alter self won't be affected by the girdle, though you will likely know if you failed the save. Jungle's Rapture actually turns you into a Plant as far as I know, so it would be effected by the girdle. Beings whose current body does not have a biological sex would be unaffected.

[FaerieGodfather]

I have never seen the matter pursued in much detail-- the girdle is either a "funny" cursed item (rapidly losing favor) or it's deliberately sought out as a means of magical transition. I can't imagine what the girdle would even do if it took psychological gender into account.

Also, if I were running the kind of game where player characters desired and sought this kind of magic? You couldn't pay me to put a Girdle in as a trap for PCs who'd achieved their desired gender status.

[Unavenger]

Some items usually considered to be cursed, like the berserking sword, are already explicitly seen as a boon rather than a curse to some users. Others, such as the net of snaring, lack a true curse altogether, and yet others, such as the -2 sword and the dust of sneezing and choking have exceptionally powerful effects when used correctly (although most people prefer to use gnome quickrazors than the -2 sword, the dust is an exceptionally strong weapon). Finally, it should be noted that the new bearer of the helm of opposite alignment actually "thoroughly enjoys his new outlook...and the affected individual does not make any attempt to return to the former alignment. (In fact, he views the prospect with horror and avoids it in any way possible.)"

On this basis I don't suppose the curse would change the person's dysphoria as though in a deliberate attempt to make the curse "Cursier".

[Kayblis]

I know this is bait, yet I feel this requires a proper response.

Your character is one of two genders. Physically. This fact doesn't care for how your character "feels", how he wants to be seen, how he treats him/herself in public, or any personal issue. Treat is as having the [Male] or [Female] tag in a videogame.

Now, this may cause distress to a character, and there's no modern "transitioning" in medieval times(not that today's method is anything but barbaric anyways), but the existance of magic is a game changer. Unlike the real world counterpart, a curse or other effect that changes your gender (like the mentioned Girdle of Opposite Gender) actually changes your entire biology to that of the opposite gender - you can have children, you swap all the good and bad parts of either gender, and that's it. The concept of playing a character with gender dysphoria sounds a lot like bringing real world matters into the game, but that character could have a personal objective and a character arc around obtaining this method to change gender, and finally be "him/herself" fo the first time in his/her life. Remember, a curse doesn't have to be torture.

You could even have Polymorph spells like Alter Self be a way to cope with not having your permanent solution yet, much like a character that chases godhood might see great comfort in spells like Holy Transformation and Visage of the Deity. It's a great way to give depth to a character.

[Ruethgar]

Your character is one of two genders. Physically.

Intersex persons are not addressed by a binary gender system, nor are female/male chimeras but that one's a pretty easy swap generally. Also, can't find the article off hand, but basically there are around 16 physical genders for the purposes of in depth medical trials. Generally it is split in two, but there is a bit of a spectrum of how you react to certain drugs and stimuli so you might have all the male bits but react as a female for x drug. Not sure I'm explaining it well enough, the article said there were significantly more markers, but 16 was enough for generalized use. I want to find that article now.

[the_tick_rules]

I know this is bait, yet I feel this requires a proper response.

Your character is one of two genders. Physically. This fact doesn't care for how your character "feels", how he wants to be seen, how he treats him/herself in public, or any personal issue. Treat is as having the [Male] or [Female] tag in a videogame.

{scrubbed}

[Morty]

I think the simplest way to deal with it is just not to use effects that mess around with a character's sex or gender as a curse, trap or anything along those lines. The belt of "gender change" is pretty juvenile in a "ha ha, you're a girl now!" way that really hasn't aged well in a number of ways.

[Unavenger]

{scrub the post, scrub the quote}

Depends. If it only includes things that real people identify as, you could fit them all on a d100 easily (and probably fit the broad categories on a d10, although it would be a very unbalanced one in terms of how many people are in each group). If you include the ones that 4chan invents regularly to try to make nonbinary people look dumb, then you'd be better off rolling up a FATAL character than rolling on that chart.

On an unrelated note, I see this thread going downhill soon.

[Psyren]

The belt is a relic of a bygone era when "hey Steve, your toon is a GURL NAO, huehuehue" would prompt a more feverish scramble for Remove Curse than any magnitude of mathematical penalties. A modern update to the spell would simply not be a curse at all, instead being an instantaneous way to alter your presentation to match your desired gender identity, even when the latter could change moment to moment. Rather than continue to adjudicate what the belt even does in an ENBY world, or attempt to justify why what it does should still be defined as a "curse" - I would just remove it entirely. There are plenty of other, more interesting cursed items you can drop into a treasure pile that won't prompt a derail of your campaign into GLAAD territory.

[Peelee]

The Mod on the Silver Mountain: Closed for review.