Do Urban Druids get Double Crossbow proficiency for free?

[Gruftzwerg]

Hey Folks, I'm in a lil dilemma here.

First we have the Urban Druid that gets proficiency with: Crossbow (any)

Than we have the double crossbows from the Kobold web enhancement (https://web.archive.org/web/20190804213826/http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a):

Weapon Qualities

These weapons require the Exotic Weapon Proficiency to wield without taking a -4 penalty on attack rolls, but taking Exotic Weapon Proficiency (double crossbow) makes a character proficient in the use of all double crossbows. The penalty for wielding a hand crossbow without proficiency is cumulative with the penalty for wielding a double crossbow without proficiency.

From the syntax, I would say they are separate weapons. But I can't find any rules associated with that clarifying my situation.

On the other hand "Crossbow (any)" would imply that double crossbows should be included.

What are your thoughts on this?
Can you point me to a clear solution with rules?
Or any similar situations in the FAQ or Sage Advice that would help?

And as a bonus question: Am I right assuming that I need normal and double crossbow proficiency to avoid any penalties? I'm not sure if I read this right..^^

[daremetoidareyo]

The way im parsing it is that you need both the exotic wepon pro (hand crossbow) and exotic weapon pro (double crossbow) to use a hand double crossbow with no penalties.

If you just take EWP (double crossbow) you can use all double crossbows, but you take the penalty with hand double crossbows unless you have the additional EWP feat.

Pure raw, urban druid gives you weapon proficiency, but you need EWP(double crossbow) to apply it to all double crossbows.


Save two feats by Dipping warblade and just move weapon proficiencies over.

[Gruftzwerg]

Save two feats by Dipping warblade and just move weapon proficiencies over.


Imho that won't work out. Classes give you "proficiency" not the associated feats. This only happens in 3.5 video games but not RAW I believe (pls point me to any rule passage if I am wrong). And if that is the chase, you don't have any feat from class (weapon proficiency) to switch. And weapon aptitude requires a feat.

[OrbanSirgen]

Does the double crossbow count as a crossbow? Then yes, the urban druid is proficient...
https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?506218-The-Urban-Druid-Handbook

[Gruftzwerg]

Does the double crossbow count as a crossbow?

That's what I try to confirm here ..^^

the syntax implies no, but I can't find any rules for the syntax to back this assumption up. And if we lack the rules for the syntax, crossbow (any) would imply you get it free.

So can you provide some rules for this specific question?^^

[Hish]

Crossbow isn't a defined term. Since double crossbows are crossbows by the common definition, crossbow (any) applies. It does say that it requires Exotic Weapon Proficiency, but it doesn't say that it requires the feat, just proficiency. Even if it did say the feat, I don't think it would matter, since it is talking about the general case. In general, characters need the EWP feat to be proficient in an exotic weapon, but there are specific exceptions like exoticist fighter, master of masks, or urban druid.

I also think you're allowed to use hand double crossbows without a nonproficiency penalty, because hand double crossbows require proficiency in both hand crossbows and double crossbows, both of which are covered by crossbow (any).

[Gruftzwerg]

Crossbow isn't a defined term. Since double crossbows are crossbows by the common definition, crossbow (any) applies. It does say that it requires Exotic Weapon Proficiency, but it doesn't say that it requires the feat, just proficiency. Even if it did say the feat, I don't think it would matter, since it is talking about the general case. In general, characters need the EWP feat to be proficient in an exotic weapon, but there are specific exceptions like exoticist fighter, master of masks, or urban druid.

I also think you're allowed to use hand double crossbows without a nonproficiency penalty, because hand double crossbows require proficiency in both hand crossbows and double crossbows, both of which are covered by crossbow (any).

I guess you're right. I am also missing any clear 3.5 specific definition for "crossbows" so it should cover the double crossbow proficiencies too.

Thx for the help.


If anyone else can provide anything more for or against this assumption (like a 3.5 crossbow definition), let me know^^