OOTS #286 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

Well, it's late, since it's 3:35 am. Sorry.

I'm going to bed now.

[Pigeon]

I'm glad I stay up too late for my own good sometimes.


Belkar isnt as clever as people thought.

Sure, he was --><-- close to getting her to fall. Willing to die to do it.

Thats devotion.

But I guess he failed his Think Things Through roll.

[xrestassuredx]

Finally, some answers, confirmation of what most of us have suspected all along.

Miko isn't totally "un-snapped" anyway...

[Rainee_Sue]

Comic and its implications aside, V's sarcastic little smirk in the last three panels is going to have me grinning for the rest of the weekend. Good on ya, Giant.

[FlawedParadigm]

Well, his heart was in the right place, though. That is, wanting to turn Miko into a fighter-without-bonus-feats. And he was planning exactly what most people gave him the credit for planning.

He just overlooked a couple of uhm...small details. Hee. ^_^

Is this the first time these two have had their own comic? I also like V's admission of not excelling at social situations. I hadn't been sure she was aware of her own lacking skills.

[a_m_a_t]

Wow - I thought I would have been really late reading the comic, but I actually caught it within ten minutes of its posting - cool.

So does this mean that Belkar has a decent to high Intelligence, but a low Wisdom?

[NephandiMan]

I claim this first page for Spain!

In other news, all the people who acted like it would be no big deal for Belkar to get a Raise Dead spell just got told. Five grand worth of diamonds? Who here wants to bet that Roy wouldn't have paid that little expense?

[Rainee_Sue]

Although, I must point out one error. Clearly, the appropriate response to that situation is not "SHUT UP!", but rather, "YOUR MOM!" ;D

[spectralphoenix]

Two verbal smackdowns in a row for V! Are we sure CHA is his dump stat?

Hilarious!

[kerberos]

Well Belkar at least believes that killing him would have counted as an evil act. I'm inclined to accept that, since it is after all an expert opinion.

[Winged One]

Hee hee, classic OOTS. There is no higher compliment. ;D

[Raeden]

Back to simple comic without all the plot stuff :)

Nice one ;D

[Lord Herman]

Yay for V!

Rather disturbing, though, that Belkar would be willing to sacrifice a level to make Miko lose her paladin abilities, seeing XP has been one of his main reasons for adventuring.

[Merc_Kilsek]

Very enjoyable strip.

[Dinod]

Wow.
It's morning here in Greece.
Great way to start your day.
Anyway, this strip has to be dedicated to the 91.06% of gamers who think that "raise dead"
is just a simple spell to do just before cure moderate wounds and after the last enemy has been toasted.
And no, its not just 5000 gp, it's a diamond!
You gotta have it, people!
Anyway, apart from a DM's rant,
great strip Rich, now lets see some Linear Guild! :D

[Neopolis]

Semi-first page -_-''

Poor tables. :P

[TheBlueDragon]

Belkar was just OWNED. :P (and like, my first post was a second page! woohoo \o/)

[Valiena]

Back to jail for Belkar..... Think he will get a not guilty verdict on killing the guard?

[Delgarde]

Well, that certainly answers everyone who argued Belkar wasn't trying to make Miko fall. Not to mention the ones who didn't think he was stupid enough to get himself killed in the process.

[kierthos]

Back to jail for Belkar..... Think he will get a not guilty verdict on killing the guard?

I'm willing to bet that his sentence will be commuted into some sort of "community service". Like leaving the Azure City community and never coming back.

Or, well... Lord Shojo wanted to talk to Roy about something... maybe to let him know Xykon was still alive, err... undead. Maybe to get him to sign on for a quest. And the only person who has been able to reign in Belkar (most of the time) has been Roy.

[Aeek]

Yay for V!

Rather disturbing, though, that Belkar would be willing to sacrifice a level to make Miko lose her paladin abilities, seeing XP has been one of his main reasons for adventuring.

He might think of that on a 20.

[fall_ark]

Thanks, Rich, you earn yourself a good sleep :P

And I just want to repeat that "I think I may owe the tables of the world an apology." Bwahahahaha! ;D

[kerberos]

Wow.
It's morning here in Greece.
Great way to start your day.
Anyway, this strip has to be dedicated to the 91.06% of gamers who think that "raise dead"
is just a simple spell to do just before cure moderate wounds and after the last enemy has been toasted.
And no, its not just 5000 gp, it's a diamond!
You gotta have it, people!
Anyway, apart from a DM's rant,
great strip Rich, now lets see some Linear Guild! :D

How difficult would it actually be for characters of that level to get 5000 gold to buy diamonds for?

[Eli_Gamir]

Yay for V!

Rather disturbing, though, that Belkar would be willing to sacrifice a level to make Miko lose her paladin abilities, seeing XP has been one of his main reasons for adventuring.


I'm sure the bonus roleplay XP would've compensated for that, at least a bit (and for something like he should get a lot).

I don't get the "I think I may owe the tables of the world an apology..."

[Curunir]

It was wonderfu. The last panel is my favorite: I think I may owe the tabels of the world an apology... I almost fell of my chair..

[Reivas_Genocai]

That was definatly worth it, happy I stood up to read it!

[mec]

"No one pays you to think, Ears!"

Sounds like a bit of Elan's cluelessness got mixed in with Belkar's hostility!

[Delgarde]

I'm sure the bonus roleplay XP would've compensate for that, at least a bit (and for something like he should get a lot).

I think he deserves some roleplaying XP, certainly. However, I think he'd also be entitled to the XP for defeating Miko, since making her fall certainly *should* count as overcoming the challenge he'd set himself. It's not strictly a combat challenge like the rules cover, but I think in terms of achievement, it's probably worth about the same.

[divine]

giant, you most likely will not read this, but thank you for your dedication to getting these comics out as often as you do - I hope you get enough sleep tonight/today
you sir, are amazing
<3

[Leo_Forestclaw]

I think this comic may actually surpass "the doily" as my favorite V strip!

Somewhere some tables are feeling really, really smug. ;-)

[idksocrates]

wow. I managed to get to the comic thread before 13 pages had been posted. Especially recenlty, when there have been like 45 pages in just two days.

Anyhoo... Miko would have been striking down a foe that was helpless, and after she had already deliverred Belkar, as was her duty to the Azure guard. Executing him without trial may very well have stripped her of her powers.

[clik]

How difficult would it actually be for characters of that level to get 5000 gold to bey diamonds for?


Not at all, if you can afford it. Find a diamond- any diamond at all.
Pay 5000gp for it.

You now have a 5000 gp diamond.

BAM!

[Delgarde]

Yes, V definitely owes the furniture world an apology. Belkar's mental acuity does indeed compare unfavourably to that of a table - but to even try to compare them is a grave insult to table-kind.

[Frank]

Intelligence, to me, is the POTENTIAL to understand new information, memorize and store information for the long term, and to process information.

Wisdom, to me, is all a matter of perspective, to have the ability to maintain focus on the task at hand, see it through to its solution, to take all the facts into consideration and act, for lack of a better word, wisely.

Belkar is intelligent to a fault considering his probable Wisdom score. He has enough intelligence to weave himself into trouble that his lack of Wisdom accounts for. He knows how to get what he wants, but he doesn't have the patience to stop and come up with other solutions that wouldn't put him at unnecessary risk. Like Paul Heyman, the man behind ECW: Brilliant mind, no perspective on how reality works (financially).

I'll give V this: She's likely more intelligent than Belkar and twice as wise. But, clearly, she still underestimates him.


BTW, awesome comics...man, I honestly thought the Azure City thing would slow everything down to a halt. But Rich is a genius and the ruler of the Queen's Nah-vee. He made it all extremely entertaining and plot-filled and funny...and seems to improve his use of visual presentation as well as dialogue.

...

Okay, no more HMS Pinafore references, especially when they're non-sequitors. And that didn't even make sense.

Gah. Time for bed.

-Frank

[Branco]

I really (o rly?) dont see why Miko wouldve fallen if she killed Belkar.


They were in a fight, it wasnt evil, it wasnt even unlawful either, because it was a matter of honor.

I mean, come on, a paladin is not allowed to strike down upon a CE criminal/murderer/registered sex offender (ya rly!) with great vengeance and furious anger just because he laying there, helpless. Belkar wasnt even surrendering (no wai!).

All told I cant understand why Miko should fall because she was about to end an epic fight between Good and Evil. Is Good not permitted to kill Evil because Evil's laying pathetically on the ground because it was beaten in a fair (more or less) fight.


What the fac can paladin use CdG (wai!)?

[rosebud]

:) :) :)

Even though most of the dragon hoard was lost, surely between his share of Xykon's treasure and the one bag of dragon treasure saved (even after Haley deducts her 50% fees for rescuing it =) would have provided sufficient materials or funds for one and possibly two (for the guard) resurrections. Just a thought, at least.

As for losing a level, as noted, that is more than made up by the role playing experience and -- more importantly -- the sheer fun of ruining a NPC. Gaming is also about fun, yes?

Let's see. What else?

- Was the guard copy-pasted? He seems to be static once he stops. Rather unhappy, too. I wonder if he fears being like his dead mate.

- I love Belkar with his closed eyes and smile. :)

- Has Belkar called V "ears" before, or is Nale rubbing off?

Anyhow, I'm glad I waited a few extra minutes before going to bed. It's nice to have a lovely strip before bedtime. (And not have 18 pages of posts to read through before making a post, as well.:))

[eof]

Rather disturbing, though, that Belkar would be willing to sacrifice a level to make Miko lose her paladin abilities, seeing XP has been one of his main reasons for adventuring.

Belkar is a halfling muticlass ranger N/barbarian 1, where N should be about 11 (making him character level 12). Unless there is a house rule for it, he takes an XP penalty for having two non-favored classes with such a large gap between their respective levels. Losing a level would make him lose the barbarian level, allowing him to gain XP at the normal 100% rate.

[Delgarde]

Intelligence, to me, is the POTENTIAL to understand new information, memorize and store information for the long term, and to process information.

Wisdom, to me, is all a matter of perspective, to have the ability to maintain focus on the task at hand, see it through to its solution, to take all the facts into consideration and act, for lack of a better word, wisely.

Belkar is intelligent to a fault considering his probable Wisdom score. He has enough intelligence to weave himself into trouble that his lack of Wisdom accounts for. He knows how to get what he wants, but he doesn't have the patience to stop and come up with other solutions that wouldn't put him at unnecessary risk. Like Paul Heyman, the man behind ECW: Brilliant mind, no perspective on how reality works (financially).

That's true. In which case it's not so much tables V should be apologising to, but lemmings. Belkar does not possess a wisdom score normally reserved for lemmings. Lemmings are a *lot* wiser than Belkar is.

[Hardred]

Excellent. I've been reading OOTS for a long while now and I've finally been motivated to register and post by Belkar's comment:

"You ruined everything!!"

I really enjoy reading this strip, it's the best thing since SnarfQuest and that shows how old I am!

Thanks for doing this Rich.

[Nikolai_II]

Yay for V!

Rather disturbing, though, that Belkar would be willing to sacrifice a level to make Miko lose her paladin abilities, seeing XP has been one of his main reasons for adventuring.

Well, if he is one level lower than everyone else in the party he will earn xp faster than them. He might even see that as a bonus ;)

-

And Paladins can kill evil when necessary. But in a court that they accept as having legal authority over themselves without due process.. maybe not as much. Also Belkar is stupid ;)

-

Any explanations of tables and apologies forthcoming soon?

[kierthos]

All told I cant understand why Miko should fall because she was about to end an epic fight between Good and Evil. Is Good not permitted to kill Evil because Evil's laying pathetically on the ground because it was beaten in a fair (more or less) fight.

Well, one thing to consider is that we're only assuming she would have fallen from Paladin-hood. Sure, Belkar sees it that way. Doesn't mean it would actually happen. Now, if she was killing him solely because she was angry at him, and no longer because he had killed the guard, escaped, and so forth... well, that might meet the qualifiers to lose Paladin-hood, or it might not.

Regardless, she didn't fall. (yet) Belkar didn't die. (yet) And Roy hasn't talked to Lord Shojo. (yet)

One thing puzzles me, not about this strip, but the last one... why did Hinjo look so shocked about Lord Shojo mentioning the 'meow' note? Early history of practical joking on his liege lord, perhaps?

[Frem]

w00t, staying up late DOES have advantages. 3rd page!
And wow... it took me like 5 minutes to get that punchline. Awexome once I figured it out though. Hehe. Tables.

(Hint: Look at V's dialog in the comic before this)

[Vaarsuvius_Prime]

"I think I may owe the tables of the world an apology..."
Sorry, but what is the fun in this sentence?

[eof]

How difficult would it actually be for characters of that level to get 5000 gold to bey diamonds for?

Having the money to buy it is not the issue--being in a place where such diamonds are readily for sale is.

According to the DMG, items worth 3,001-15,000 GP can be purchased in small cities (population 5,001-12,000) or better. I think Azure City qualifies, though.

[Delgarde]

- Was the guard copy-pasted? He seems to be static once he stops. Rather unhappy, too. I wonder if he fears being like his dead mate.

Nah, he's just being a guard. Standing still is what guards do.


- I love Belkar with his closed eyes and smile. :)

Beatific is the word you're looking for, I'd say. And yes, it's a wonderful smile - you can see how happy he is just at the thought of what he'd nearly achieved.


- Has Belkar called V "ears" before, or is Nale rubbing off?

I think he's used that term a few times before. Seem to recall V being somewhat offended by it.

[Delgarde]

"I think I may owe the tables of the world an apology..."
Sorry, but what is the fun in this sentence?

Re-read V's statement in the previous comic, asserting that Belkar's mental acuity would be compared unfavourably with a table. V now considers it to be an insult to tables to compare them with Belkar.

[Karellen]

5000 GP in diamonds? Meh, I think it's reasonable to think that even if Durkon wouldn't have them, Haley inevitably would. I mean, hello, she is miss Diamonds-are-a-girl's-best-friend. And while she would have moaned and complained, she would have donated them to revive Belkar, because she is, with all likeliness, Chaotic Sucker... I mean Chaotic Good. ;)

[Istielthia]

"I think I may owe the tables of the world an apology..."
Sorry, but what is the fun in this sentence?


In episode #285 V says "... and whose mental acuity would be compared unfavorably to that of a table" in reference to Belkar.

Thus the apology to tables everywhere.

Great comic, Giant. Going sleepies now.

Dammit, got beat by seconds.

[Frem]

Having the money to buy it is not the issue--being in a place where such diamonds are readily for sale is.

According to the DMG, items worth 3,001-15,000 GP can be purchased in small cities (population 5,001-12,000) or better. I think Azure City qualifies, though.
All items in that price range, though? I don't RP much, but it seems strange to me that every single item in that range would be in a single city. What happened to rare items that are hard to get, yet sell in that price range? (a'la most every MMORPG out there)

[kierthos]

Having the money to buy it is not the issue--being in a place where such diamonds are readily for sale is.

According to the DMG, items worth 3,001-15,000 GP can be purchased in small cities (population 5,001-12,000) or better. I think Azure City qualifies, though.


Yeah... I can't see that working too well...

Jeweler: Can I help you?
Durkon: Aye, I'd like ta buy a diamond.
Jeweler: And how much are you looking to spend?
Durkon: 5000 gold.
Jeweler: *cha-ching* And what is this to be used for? A large necklace? A scepter, perhaps?
Durkon: It's ta be used to raise someone from the dead.
Jeweler: Oh my. Well, it must have been a very good friend.
Durkon: Not really. He's more of an annoyance. And I wouldn't have had ta raise him if he hadn't killed a guard and been sentenced ta death by Lord Shojo/killed by a paladin of the Sapphire Order.
Jeweler: Please leave now.
Durkon: Huh?
Jeweler: You want me to sell you a diamond so you can reverse the lawful execution of someone who was killed by the people who run the city? No thanks, I have enough problems already.

[xrestassuredx]

"I think I may owe the tables of the world an apology..."
Sorry, but what is the fun in this sentence?
It's a reference to the previous strip, where V said Belkar's "mental acuity would be compared unfavorably to that of a table."

[Seifer]

OK, Belkar is definetly my fav character. xD

Well, we needed a rest from the plot-charged strips, and this one does nicely.

Now what will happen to poor Belkar...? DUNDUNDUUUUUUN!

[Magus]

V is awesome. That is all.

[Delgarde]

It occurs to me that despite a low charisma, V has obviously spent quite a few skill points on "insulting putdown". We've seen quite a few uses of such a skill in recent comics.

[Istielthia]

All items in that price range, though? I don't RP much, but it seems strange to me that every single item in that range would be in a single city. What happened to rare items that are hard to get, yet sell in that price range? (a'la most every MMORPG out there)



I don't think its that all items in that price range are found in every small city you come to, its just that if you want to find items of that price range, the first best place to look would be a small city. Small towns, villages, etc just aren't going to have that kind of merchandise on hand. But, to my way of thinking at least, chances of a "small" city having everything under-the-sun withing that price range is fairly close to nil.

[tmacdevitt]

Giant,


Well, it's late, since it's 3:35 am. Sorry.

I'm going to bed now.


You have nothing to apologize for. Its clear that you have a dedicated fan base who now crave your stories three times a week. I, for one, appreciate your work, and your stories. You never have to apologize for entertaining me for free.

Peace,

Tom

[Kish]

Yay for V!

Rather disturbing, though, that Belkar would be willing to sacrifice a level to make Miko lose her paladin abilities, seeing XP has been one of his main reasons for adventuring.
You sure he remembered that "little detail" either? :P


And the only person who has been able to reign in Belkar (most of the time) has been Roy.
Miko did a pretty good job (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=251). :P

[Seifer]

I don't think its that all items in that price range are found in every small city you come to, its just that if you want to find items of that price range, the first best place to look would be a small city. Small towns, villages, etc just aren't going to have that kind of merchandise on hand. But, to my way of thinking at least, chances of a "small" city having everything under-the-sun withing that price range is fairly close to nil.


Azure city looks to me like a big city, or even a metropolis, thou.

But yeah, still some things (especially damn big gems) should be gained by adventuring, not by buying. Or else ROy would have bought the starmetal, and we wouldn't have OOtS any longer. xD

[Elurindel]

Woo! I loved it, as ever. Just when it looked like Belkar had thought everything through...bam! He forgot one seemingly tiny, albeit rather expensive thing. It's good to see a V-heavy strip, as V is probably my favourite character. The way he always manages to bombard all in sight with high-level fireballs and incredibly long sentences is just brilliant.

[Sc00by]

V rocks!

;)

Got to love the holes in the plan being pointed out!

And references to previous strips just to confuse everyone!

Great stuff.

[Ellimist]

"I think I owe the tables of the world an apology"

;D

I thought that was what he was trying to do. Although I thought it'd be one of the clerics who summoned the big guy who would have raised him, getting the daimonds from Lord Shojo (who doesn't realise why she's killed him, as she'd have fallen and wouldn't believe her. Sees it as "compensation" for being killed by an evil act from one of his paladins.)

[eof]

(Frem said: ) All items in that price range, though? I don't RP much, but it seems strange to me that every single item in that range would be in a single city. What happened to rare items that are hard to get, yet sell in that price range? (a'la most every MMORPG out there)

I don't think its that all items in that price range are found in every small city you come to, its just that if you want to find items of that price range, the first best place to look would be a small city. Small towns, villages, etc just aren't going to have that kind of merchandise on hand. But, to my way of thinking at least, chances of a "small" city having everything under-the-sun withing that price range is fairly close to nil.

From the DMG: "Nothing that costs more than a community's gp limit is available for purchase in that community. Anything having a price under that limit is most likely available, whether it be mundane or magical. While exceptions are certainly possible (...), these exceptions are temporary; all communities will conform to the norm over time."

Apart from that, I don't think it would be unreasonable to assume that in a community of 5,001-12,000 persons, a) there will be at least one jeweler that can get you your diamond (or more generally, someone who can get you what you want that remains in the price range of that community), and b) there will be persons that have the means, and sometimes the need, for Raise Dead anyway, so it is not far-fetched to assume that there is a business for 5,000 gp diamonds, which will justify availablity.

"Rare items that are hard to get" might not sell in that price range (being more expensive than their effective value due to rarity), but if they do, they would be available.

Also notice that that this only indicates general availablity, it does not mean that you can get unlimited amounts of a particular item.

[archon_huskie]

But at least we now know why people don't live forever in a world with the magic to raise the dead.

[Coldwind]

Cool.

If Belkar thought that Durkon could raise him 3-4 times per day (don't mention diamonds), that makes Belkar not stupidier than we thought. He has a.. lack of Wisdom. :)

If V did not interfere with the duel, Belkar would die; sacrifing himself to the Miko's fallen paladinhood which will exactly happen. We would have got some chopped Belkar and a fallen Miko.

Anyway, I don't love to say "Perfect strip" or "This strip rocks" type words in forum, I prefer to keep it myself, but this strip enlightens some of my predictions, so, good work. :)

[Seifer]

But at least we now know why people don't live forever in a world with the magic to raise the dead.


don't think you can raise somebody that dies from old age, neither (well, you CAN, but he would die instantly again. xD)

[zimri]

I mean, come on, a paladin is not allowed to strike down upon a CE criminal/murderer/registered sex offender (ya rly!) with great vengeance and furious anger just because he laying there, helpless. Belkar wasnt even surrendering (no wai!).

All told I cant understand why Miko should fall because she was about to end an epic fight between Good and Evil. Is Good not permitted to kill Evil because Evil's laying pathetically on the ground because it was beaten in a fair (more or less) fight.



point 1) her mission from Shojo was to if possible deliver them for HIS judgement OR if that was not possible summarily judge them herself and execute them.

Point 2) Belkar (who was laying defenceless in a courtroom surrounded by paladins, samurai, a BOPLAG, et al) hadn't surrendered YET I am quite certain (though I can not prove) that he was prepared to do so at the last possible nanosecond (readied action to when he felt steel touch skin or some such)

Since she succeeded in her mission to deliver Belkar to Shojo her mission was over she has to allow shojo (or the BOPLAG as his proxy) to determine what belkar's fate (and that of the oots ) is to be.

[Zonemind]

I think he deserves some roleplaying XP, certainly. However, I think he'd also be entitled to the XP for defeating Miko, since making her fall certainly *should* count as overcoming the challenge he'd set himself. It's not strictly a combat challenge like the rules cover, but I think in terms of achievement, it's probably worth about the same.

The rules do cover non-combat XP. As a DM, I tend to hand out story awards almost as often as combat awards (for a D&D player, I've got a whanging big storytelling habit), and there's a whole little section in the DMG on how to handle them.

I'd have handed Belkar's player a standard story XP award as if he'd overcome a challenge with a CR equal to his level... but only if he was actually role-playing and not, you know, just your garden variety douche bag. 'cause if Belkar was a reflection of the player's personality, I'd be handing him is walking papers.

[kerberos]

Yeah... I can't see that working too well...

Jeweler: Can I help you?
Durkon: Aye, I'd like ta buy a diamond.
Jeweler: And how much are you looking to spend?
Durkon: 5000 gold.
Jeweler: *cha-ching* And what is this to be used for? A large necklace? A scepter, perhaps?
Durkon: It's ta be used to raise someone from the dead.
Jeweler: Oh my. Well, it must have been a very good friend.
Durkon: Not really. He's more of an annoyance. And I wouldn't have had ta raise him if he hadn't killed a guard and been sentenced ta death by Lord Shojo/killed by a paladin of the Sapphire Order.
Jeweler: Please leave now.
Durkon: Huh?
Jeweler: You want me to sell you a diamond so you can reverse the lawful execution of someone who was killed by the people who run the city? No thanks, I have enough problems already.


Exits Durkon stage right. Enters Haley stage left.

Jeweler: Can I help you?
Haley: Yes I'd like to buy some diamond for a necklace.
Jeweler: And how much are you looking to spend?
Haley: I don't really know, what does that one cost?
Jeweler: 5000 gold.
Haley: Well it is awfully pretty, I'll take that one.
Jeweler: Here you are miss.

Exits Haley stage left.

What was the problem again?

[Zonemind]

It occurs to me that despite a low charisma, V has obviously spent quite a few skill points on "insulting putdown". We've seen quite a few uses of such a skill in recent comics.

Insulting put-down is an Int-based stat, or I wouldn't have put so many ranks in it.

[zimri]

I'd have handed Belkar's player a standard story XP award as if he'd overcome a challenge with a CR equal to his level... but only if he was actually role-playing and not, you know, just your garden variety douche bag. 'cause if Belkar was a reflection of the player's personality, I'd be handing him is walking papers.

I like to think that were this a REAL game that the fight between Belkar and miko was the players of said characters blowing off steam during the exposition of the trial I mean there was clearly ALOT of deus ex machina (the huge pot of soup on an outside terrace, miko being hit with belkar's huge hard wang et al)

[kerberos]

The rules do cover non-combat XP. As a DM, I tend to hand out story awards almost as often as combat awards (for a D&D player, I've got a whanging big storytelling habit), and there's a whole little section in the DMG on how to handle them.

I'd have handed Belkar's player a standard story XP award as if he'd overcome a challenge with a CR equal to his level... but only if he was actually role-playing and not, you know, just your garden variety douche bag. 'cause if Belkar was a reflection of the player's personality, I'd be handing him is walking papers.

If Belkar is a reflextion of the players personality that might not be such a good idea. ;D

[Adeptus]

Belkar calling V 'Ears'. It's pretty camaraderly

http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=125

[kierthos]

Exits Durkon stage right. Enters Haley stage left.

Jeweler: Can I help you?
Haley: Yes I'd like to buy some diamond for a necklace.
Jeweler: And how much are you looking to spend?
Haley: I don't really know, what does that one cost?
Jeweler: 5000 gold.
Haley: Well it is awfully pretty, I'll take that one.
Jeweler: Here you are miss.

Exits Haley stage left.

What was the problem again?

Nothing, other then Haley is still speaking gibberish. :P

But yeah, good point. If Haley could talk normally, she could get the diamond, by hook or by crook. Elan, if given written instructions, pinned to his sleeve, could do it. Heck, anyone but Durkon would have no problem buying the diamond. I just see Durkon spilling the beans about why he wants the diamond... possibly Elan too, but that's why the instructions are pinned to his sleeve. :)

[kerberos]

Nothing, other then Haley is still speaking gibberish. :P
Yeah OK, you got me there.


But yeah, good point. If Haley could talk normally, she could get the diamond, by hook or by crook. Elan, if given written instructions, pinned to his sleeve, could do it. Heck, anyone but Durkon would have no problem buying the diamond. I just see Durkon spilling the beans about why he wants the diamond... possibly Elan too, but that's why the instructions are pinned to his sleeve. :)

I'm not sure that would be enough to keep him from messing up. It would propably be safer to just send in V or Roy.

[Shular]

Whether or not Belkar's plan would have worked is moo. Belkar believed it would work, and so he went for it.

[Delgarde]

The rules do cover non-combat XP. As a DM, I tend to hand out story awards almost as often as combat awards (for a D&D player, I've got a whanging big storytelling habit), and there's a whole little section in the DMG on how to handle them.

Yeah, I know the DMG does allow for non-combat XP, but unlike for combat, there's very little guidelines on how to handle it. My thinking was that causing Miko to fall was probably worth about the same as defeating her in combat, since this story *did* involve her actively trying to kill him.

[Delgarde]

b) there will be persons that have the means, and sometimes the need, for Raise Dead anyway, so it is not far-fetched to assume that there is a business for 5,000 gp diamonds, which will justify availablity.


Note that the spell doesn't require a single 5000gp diamond - it requires diamonds (plural) with a total value of 5000gp. Five hundred 10gp diamonds would be fine.

[endoperez]

Didn't anyone else think the "tables of the world" could include this web forum...

I'm not a native English speaker, and I didn't remember the table comment on yesterday's comic, but still...

[Bakta]

OK, Belkar is definetly my fav character. xD

Well, we needed a rest from the plot-charged strips, and this one does nicely.

Now what will happen to poor Belkar...? DUNDUNDUUUUUUN!

Belkar will be taught a thing or two about life, female mindset and microwave by a zen coffee-table master.

Does that count as spoiler ?

[Sebastian]

Although, I must point out one error. Clearly, the appropriate response to that situation is not "SHUT UP!", but rather, "YOUR MOM!" ;D
Considering it is V shouldn't it be, "YOUR DAD!"?
"YOUR PARENT!" maybe :D

[Holy_Knight]

Nothing, other then Haley is still speaking gibberish. :P

But yeah, good point. If Haley could talk normally, she could get the diamond, by hook or by crook. Elan, if given written instructions, pinned to his sleeve, could do it. Heck, anyone but Durkon would have no problem buying the diamond. I just see Durkon spilling the beans about why he wants the diamond... possibly Elan too, but that's why the instructions are pinned to his sleeve. :)

Maybe... but would you trust a jeweler you didn't know to not try to take advantage of someone who needed instructions pinned to his sleeve, and had thousands of gold pieces to part with? :P

(By the way, I liked what you said, it made me laugh:))

--Oh, and Giant, if you're reading this--I hope that whatever emergency you had has been resolved, and everyone concerned is alright. :(

[Sebastian]

How difficult would it actually be for characters of that level to get 5000 gold to buy diamonds for?
well, on one hand you have around two weeks (1day/caster level) to find enough diamonds to cast the spell and diamonds don't grow on trees.
OtOH any adventurer worth his salt would buy one or two diamonds to keep on reserve for suck an eventuality, his "personal insurance" or so to speak.

[team56th]

Great! V is the coolest character of OOTS! Yay!

...but... well, some part of Belkar's plan was awesome, like banning Miko from paladinhood.

[Sebastian]

BTW another confirmation of OotS level.

If Durkon can cast 3-4 5th level spells this should make him around 12-15th level

[armatil]

Back to simple comic without all the plot stuff :)

Nice one ;D
i second that.

great stuff!

[Alfryd]

Very nice. Well, I guess that surprised... no-one.

Die, Belkar, you little f*cker. I'm not kidding. I hope they feed your headless corpse to feral wolves.


They were in a fight, it wasnt evil, it wasnt even unlawful either, because it was a matter of honor.
I have covered this in the Miko FRC discussion thread. Miko's lawful restrictions REQUIRE she allow Belkar due legal process when practical, regardless of whether she knows Belkar deserves smiting immediately. Honour also requires you not strike an (apparently) helpless foe.


What was the problem again?
I suspect that the local authorities might take care to cremate the body against just such an eventuality. Though I have more colourful measures in mind.

[Pvednes]

They could quite easily go and get such a diamond, but I do think they're much more likely to let the murdering lil bastard stay dead.

[Vampire_Boy]

Awww, Belkar is so cute when his poor WIS modifier is showing. ;D

[Marller]

They could quite easily go and get such a diamond, but I do think they're much more likely to let the murdering lil bastard stay dead.
Yeah, Haley got a father to save. I think, they would have left his body in the care of Azure city. (if it's without cost).
Another option would have been to animate dead him, cheaper than raise dead. ;D

[Sebastian]

Yeah... I can't see that working too well...

Jeweler: Can I help you?
Durkon: Aye, I'd like ta buy a diamond.
Jeweler: And how much are you looking to spend?
Durkon: 5000 gold.
Jeweler: *cha-ching* And what is this to be used for? A large necklace? A scepter, perhaps?
Durkon: It's ta be used to raise someone from the dead.
Jeweler: Oh my. Well, it must have been a very good friend.
Durkon: Not really. He's more of an annoyance. And I wouldn't have had ta raise him if he hadn't killed a guard and been sentenced ta death by Lord Shojo/killed by a paladin of the Sapphire Order.
Jeweler: Please leave now.
Durkon: Huh?
Jeweler: You want me to sell you a diamond so you can reverse the lawful execution of someone who was killed by the people who run the city? No thanks, I have enough problems already.
Durkon: no, you misunderstood. He was killed without a trial,( that's why the paladin is now a ex-paladin, BTW.), now he need to be raised so he can have a fair process.
Jeweler: Oh, yeah, I've heard about that, so that Miyazaky bitch is fallen, uh? I knew it would have happened someday. she was too much of a stuck up, even for a paladin. Why, she keep accusing me to "appeal to people's vanity" or such other nonsense, and of course she had something like that for every merchant of the city, temples that sell healing spells included. Anyway, Here your diamond, and good luck for your friend's trial.

[phlip]

According to #263 (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=263) though, we know that Elan and Roy don't care for Belkar very much, and I speculate that few of the other OotS members would actually think reviving him would be a good idea. Sure, they'd do it if Roy said to, but Roy's main reason for continued association with Belkar is to keep an eye on him - if he had died that would be a non-issue...

[Sebastian]

According to #263 (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=263) though, we know that Elan and Roy don't care for Belkar very much, and I speculate that few of the other OotS members would actually think reviving him would be a good idea. Sure, they'd do it if Roy said to, but Roy's main reason for continued association with Belkar is to keep an eye on him - if he had died that would be a non-issue...
Then why stop Miko at all?

[nagora]

No material component needed in 1st ed. He must be older than he looks if he remembers those days. Poor Belkar would have got nurfed!

I was never a big fan of Clerics needing material components other than things like holy water and holy symbols, though. Diamonds seem a bit, well, common for Raise Dead.

Edit: greengrocer's apostrophe.

[mbuna]

Here's something to think about for all of you wondering if adequate diamonds are available in Azure City.

What happens when demand exceeds supply? If there's only a single tiny diamond in the city, it could end up costing 5000 GP, thus satisfying the requirements of the spell.

Fair market value impacts the power of magic, apparently. Who knew? ;D

[Edit: Fixed a typo.]

[Karkadinn]

Does anyone else hope that the Azure City court gets fairly pissed at Belkar for blurting out his Evil Master Plan to manipulate a high-ranking paladin into falling? I mean, at the very least, the guard heard all this and should report it to Lord Shojo. Given the volume of the conversation, plenty of others should have heard, too.
So I hope this is going to be taken into account, but what I suspect is that it'll just be written out to be totally ignored, because that's the Easy Way Out.
Also, interesting to see that Belkar actually was deliberately trying to make her fall... so I was wrong on that count. Doesn't necessarily mean she would have fallen at that particular point, though... that's open to (probably endless) debate. At least Belkar lived up to my notions of him being as wise as a rock by forgetting the diamond thing. If V's making a big deal of it, it's not likely that they're easily accessible, regardless of what the DMG says. The DMG's economics for towns, cities, etc, are totally screwed up anyway, as everyone knows.

[KuH]

Maybe V's low charisma score results from a propensity towards insulting putdowns.

[battleburn]

Well, his heart was in the right place, though. That is, wanting to turn Miko into a fighter-without-bonus-feats. And he was planning exactly what most people gave him the credit for planning.

He just overlooked a couple of uhm...small details. Hee. ^_^

Is this the first time these two have had their own comic? I also like V's admission of not excelling at social situations. I hadn't been sure she was aware of her own lacking skills.

You allready had a comic where V admitted she had low social stats. 127

In Strip 125 Belkar called V ears. So that takes care of that question.

And I have a question for myself. Everybody says that Belkar has a low wisdom score, but isn't wisdom the stat you need high to allow quick reaction skills?
Belkar is a fast thinker and can make quick decisions. He didn't have time to think the battle with Miko trough so he used his wisdom score. With greater intelligence he might have thought of the need of diamonts.
It is as when he quickly thought of his joke about she-Roy and kept on harassing him.

So the question is: Does Belkar really have such a low wisdom score??

[estradling]

Hmm.... I wonder how those that claim that Belkar in not 'Evil' will wiggle out of this one. With premeditation Belkar executed a plan to make a Paladin fall, and feels he came very close to success. Like her or hate her Miko is still a paladin.

[battleburn]

Oh, and who said only Roy could handle Belkar?
In 127 and others. V has her ways of handling Belkar.
For instance after using Evan's spiked tentacles of forced intrusion, Belkar decided not to go against V. (One exception, when V was powerless being a lizard. Belkar exploited that opportunity very good.) Another example of fast thinking I believe

[Sylian]

And I have a question for myself. Everybody says that Belkar has a low wisdom score, but isn't wisdom the stat you need high to allow quick reaction skills?
Belkar is a fast thinker and can make quick decisions. He didn't have time to think the battle with Miko trough so he used his wisdom score. With greater intelligence he might have thought of the need of diamonts.
It is as when he quickly thought of his joke about she-Roy and kept on harassing him.

So the question is: Does Belkar really have such a low wisdom score??

The decisions are bad, that shows that he has a low wisdom. Quick thinker, yeah, but his decisions are unwise, such as throwing a dagger at Roy.
He probably isn't to smart either. Highest 12 int, but probably lower. That's what I think. The joke, well, he is well trained and has a feat for it. ;)

Edit, made some lesser changes.

[OldFart]

About the whole diamond purchasing discussion - why is everyone assuming Haley would pay for the diamond?

Roy: Haley, we need a 5000 GP diamond
Haley: Gibberish translating to - Well, I glad to see after all this time fighting monsters you've finally decided to employ my real expertise.

[endoperez]

So the question is: Does Belkar really have such a low wisdom score??


Yes. He can't cast any of his ranger spells, or read scrolls, without Owl's Wisdom cast on him. This only came up during the fight versus the Linear Guild and the outdated monsters. "When the goat turns, red strikes true" and Belkar's short-lived understanding of life as an important thing.

[somatic]

That was a good, classic OOTS strip =) I approve!

[jackal59]

Well, that was great... except that its effect was dulled by my having read so much speculation about exactly the same thing in the discussion thread. And that's without highlighting and reading the "spoilers."

Guess that's the lesson for me, that reading the forum ruins the comic.

[geez3r]

excellent comic. V is my favorite character (well actually he's tied with Thog, oddly enough). I love how V can be so arrogant, but not come off as pompus. I love it when V just shut some one up with a well timed insult (or spell like disintegration or Evan's Spiked Tentacles of Forced intrustion).

On a side note, why is everyone sure V has a low charisma?

[Marller]

Then why stop Miko at all?
Because he was(is) still alive.

Sure sue Miko and all that at court for it, and getting him raised as a side effect, why not. But actively raise him on their own? A big funeral is more likely, i think.

And they wouldn't raise him because (except Roy and Durkon) they don't show any masochistic tendencies as far as i can tell.

[Sebastian]

Hmm.... I wonder how those that claim that Belkar in not 'Evil' will wiggle out of this one. With premeditation Belkar executed a plan to make a Paladin fall, and feels he came very close to success. Like her or hate her Miko is still a paladin.
make a paladin fall is not necessarily evil. It is certainly chaotic.

[Sebastian]

Because he was(is) still alive.

Sure sue Miko and all that at court for it, and getting him raised as a side effect, why not. But actively raise him on their own? A big funeral is more likely, i think.

And they wouldn't raise him because (except Roy and Durkon) they don't show any masochistic tendencies as far as i can tell.
So the speech about not abandon him is all BS? I can't see a big difference between "don't let him die" and "don't let him dead".
If Roy is ready to raise Elan, Durkon or V if that ventuality come, then is must be ready to raise belkar, too.

[Lightman]

Well, it's late, since it's 3:35 am. Sorry.

I'm going to bed now.
You've earned your place in Heaven, Giant. Excellant comic.

[OldFart]

Further speculation about Belkar's Secret Evil Plan (with apologies to Tommy Gavin)

Not sure if this qualifies as spoiler, since it’s about stuff that already happened and moot at that, but just in case

[spoiler]
1) If he had been successful, a trail would have been unnecessary. He would have already have been executed by a member of the Sapphire Guard. Sure it was unlawfully executed, but I’m sure Belkar would have been “nice enough to let that slide” If pointed out that he was subsequently raised, he could have replied “So? Raise the guard – we’re even”

2) Even being tried for escaping would be a hard sell. The OotS were found innocent, so he could have claimed to be falsely imprisoned. Yeah, I know it doesn’t work that way in real life, but it does in the movies, and since more fantasy worlds more closely resemble the latter than the former, it probably would have worked.

3) Even if he had stayed dead, Belkar would have just caused a high-level paladin to fall. Please, let’s not re-start the whole “should Miko fall” debate and just agree that Belkar believes she would have fallen. That’s the kind of thing that gets rewarded in the afterlife by becoming a high-muckety-muck demon – and that’s the kind of power and potential for destruction Belkar would love to have.

[spoiler]

[AniThyng]

On a side note, why is everyone sure V has a low charisma?

Comic 128, panel 3.

[Jaguar]

Once again an excellent comic. I loved it!

I'm too tired to comment on the discussions that have been going around about diamonds and paladins and whether he's smart or stupid or wise or naive. It's sleep time in Australia :P

Excellent stuff, though, this is very easily my favourite comic ever :D

[Marller]

So the speech about not abandon him is all BS? I can't see a big difference between "don't let him die" and "don't let him dead".
Except the cost.
Fighting against someone the all equally don't like (and having a very good chance of beating) or going out of their way to get Belkar back to the living, is a difference. V already said it in the his speech last comic. Who do they like more, 5000gp or Belkar?
Sure Roy might decide to raise him nonetheless but i'm not so sure that Haley and V would just roll over, if it cuts into their resources.

[Sylian]

On a side note, why is everyone sure V has a low charisma?
V and Rich have said so.

[afarrell]

"last time I checked the cleric spell list"

So he's not just a halfling, he's also a munchkin!

[Sylian]

"last time I checked the cleric spell list"

So he's not just a halfling, he's also a munchkin!
What makes you think that?
Are you saying that he should be ignorant of his ally's spells? So that he's unprepared?
Besides, that'd be common knowledge. If you can accept the fact that Redcloak has read the Monsters Manual, you should accept the fact that Belkar has read the Players Handbook.

[Reaver225]

make a paladin fall is not necessarily evil. It is certainly chaotic.

This isn't an evil act, it was a giant prank, it would have been hilarious!

And you gotta admire the little guy's perserverance, he had to do all of this:

1: Antagonise a paladin, a lawful good person
2: Hire a lawyer
3: Kill a guard
4: (possibly) spray aforesaid guard's blood all over the walls
5: Loot a storeroom
6: Make (possibly) numerous traps in storeroom
7: Set fire to paladin (and storeroom)
8: Cause minor damage to structural integrity of Azure City Castle via throwing of daggers
9: Ruin an excellent soup (though this may be mitigated by the new taste of the soup)
10: Theft of a CSW potion
11: Destruction of a large window, possibly causing damage to all in the courtroom
12: Willing to damage the group's finances by having them ressurect him (or feel slightly guilty about not having done so)

Just the simple amount of effort put into this prank PROVES that Belkar is GOOD.

Because it was a really GOOD prank!

/obliviousness

[xrestassuredx]

What makes you think that?
Are you saying that he should be ignorant of his ally's spells? So that he's unprepared?
Besides, that'd be common knowledge. If you can accept the fact that Redcloak has read the Monsters Manual, you should accept the fact that Belkar has read the Players Handbook.
Ironic, since he has checked up on the Cleric spell list, but not the Ranger spell list (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=58)...

[Alfryd]

V is *so* overblown and verbally arrogant that it's impossible to take zer seriously. This is mostly why ze doesn't come across as unlikeable. Though zer tacit ambivalence toward Belkar's antics here slightly lowers my opinion of zer.


This isn't an evil act, it was a giant prank, it would have been hilarious!
Evil?.. As it was done purely for purposes of revenge and inflicts grievous psychological harm on another, not to mention diminishing said paladin's actual ability to fight evil, I think it qualifies.

[archon_huskie]

Hmm.... I wonder how those that claim that Belkar in not 'Evil' will wiggle out of this one. With premeditation Belkar executed a plan to make a Paladin fall, and feels he came very close to success. Like her or hate her Miko is still a paladin.
It would be surprisingly easy. Belkar has determined that Miko is unworthy to be a paladin and must for in order to maintain the sactity of Good. It's a bad argument I know and you should be able topoke holes in it.

The strip strikes me as an Out of Character Conversation more than and in Chacter discussion.

[Hawkeye]

Well, that was great... except that its effect was dulled by my having read so much speculation about exactly the same thing in the discussion thread. And that's without highlighting and reading the "spoilers."

Guess that's the lesson for me, that reading the forum ruins the comic.

Aye, reading the endless dicussions about the same thing on many of threads pretty much ruined the entire point of the comic. I'm gonna ban myself from reading those kind of threads again in case this happens another time.

Still, it has some excellent moments, like V apolizing to the tables (took me a while to figure this one out) and also for pointing out the material costs of casting the spell, which pretty much all of the people overlooked.

edit:

Just the simple amount of effort put into this prank PROVES that Belkar is GOOD.

Because it was a really GOOD prank!

/obliviousness

Um, please tell me that was a joke and you're not talking seriously, I'd hate it if you just opened the "what Belkar's alignment" argument again

[garylian]

Hmm.... I wonder how those that claim that Belkar in not 'Evil' will wiggle out of this one. With premeditation Belkar executed a plan to make a Paladin fall, and feels he came very close to success. Like her or hate her Miko is still a paladin.

I don't see how that makes him evil. I've seen plenty of CN players attempt to make a paladin fall, just because said paladin was annoying.

Just trying to make a paladin fall isn't in and of itself an evil act. It all depends on what methods you employ. If you commit no evil act along the way, but allow the paladin to misinterpet things on their own, then you are still behaving in a CN fashion.

[Ilaun_Undil]

Well it appears that the gang is stuck in Azure City for a while. Will it be the great Belkar rescue, or will Xykon come to save the day. There is still the LG to contend with.

About Belkar's alignment nothing happened to him when he was struck with an unholy blight, and being a ranger and low wisdom, that means bad will save.

[xrestassuredx]

Well it appears that the gang is stuck in Azure City for a while. Will it be the great Belkar rescue, or will Xykon come to save the day. There is still the LG to contend with.

About Belkar's alignment nothing happened to him when he was struck with an unholy blight, and being a ranger and low wisdom, that means bad will save.
A lot has happened since strip #11. Besides, Unholy Blight only sickens Good characters, not Evil orNeutral. Not saying Belkar isn't Evil, just saying that isn't evidence of it.

[Nyax]

That was awesome! Answers a lot of question concerning death in ootsverse. Go V!



A lot has happened since strip #11. Besides, Unholy Blight only sickens Good characters, not Evil orNeutral. Not saying Belkar isn't Evil, just saying that isn't evidence of it.

Erm, no other evidence than the fact that Rich said so. And as you must know, everythig he said concerning OotS IS true until he says it isnt. Oh and it was proved that Belkar did way more evil acts than non-evil ones, and he did very few good acts. The link where Rich says so is in my sig.

[WeaponMasterLDO]

Man, just thinking about Miko without her smite evil, mount, and saving throw bonus is enough to make me grin. Thank you very much Giant.

[U2QueenBee]

Apologise to tables...eeehehehehehe! :D

I have to admit, I like seeing Belkar get outsmarted by V. I hadn't actually seen any similar speculation so it was still funny to me. Good stuff Giant. :D

[xrestassuredx]

That was awesome! Answers a lot of question concerning death in ootsverse. Go V!


Erm, no other evidence than the fact that Rich said so. And as you must know, everythig he said concerning OotS IS true until he says it isnt. Oh and it was proved that Belkar did way more evil acts than non-evil ones, and he did very few good acts. The link where Rich says so is in my sig.
God, will you people read?! I even made a point of explicitly stating that I wasn't saying Belkar wasn't Evil, only that him not being sickened by Unholy Blight isn't evidence that he is. What in the name of Loki does that have to do with anything else at all, including "Rich said so"?!

[Umbral_Arcanist]

Why does V insist that Belkar is dumb? Is does not have much common sense and is quite impulsive, but is also quite cunning, getting Miko to almost fall? not very easily done. I'm not saying he's a genius, but still......

[Galad]

Evil?.. As it was done purely for purposes of revenge and inflicts grievous psychological harm on another, not to mention diminishing said paladin's actual ability to fight evil, I think it qualifies.


Really, she is supposed to be paladin, if its so easy to make her fall she doesn't deserve her title anyway. Remember that Belkar didn't force her to raise her hand, she did that all by herself.

[pita]

You'll be surprised how quickly people change minds.
It's been done to me.

[rashambo]

I can't believe the Belkar's alignment argument is still going on. From Rich's own post. He says he's evil. That doesn't stop him from being one of my favorites.

Belkar has wisdom for a dump stat. He's smart, but he's low on wisdom and chaotic, so although he'll hatch a great plan, it is not well enough thought out.

[Jaime]

Why does V insist that Belkar is dumb? Is does not have much common sense and is quite impulsive, but is also quite cunning, getting Miko to almost fall? not very easily done. I'm not saying he's a genius, but still......
It's not that Vaarsuvius thinks that Belkar is dumb. In comparison to Vaarsuvius, everyone in the Order is pretty eggheaded.

[nightfire8199]

lol great comic!!!

[battleburn]

1. I have 1 more point on the diamonts discussion. It's not about the 5000 gp you pay for a diamont. It's about the amount of diamonts that in the average city costs 5000 gp. So if you take 1 little diamont and pay 5000 gp for it. That you're just sc* *ed. Cause you have to spend a lot more money.

2. If Belkar has a low Wisdom, what makes him so witty. There is no 'wit' stat is there? In White Wolf system there is no wisdom, just wits. And I believe being able to giving witty remarks can only be done if you have high enough wits.

[Guancyto]

I don't see how that makes him evil. I've seen plenty of CN players attempt to make a paladin fall, just because said paladin was annoying.

Just trying to make a paladin fall isn't in and of itself an evil act. It all depends on what methods you employ. If you commit no evil act along the way, but allow the paladin to misinterpet things on their own, then you are still behaving in a CN fashion.

I believe it is the Book of Vile Darkness that states that intentionally making a Paladin fall is a heinously, despicably evil act. On par with selling your soul to demons.

[theKOT]

Does anyone else hope that the Azure City court gets fairly pissed at Belkar for blurting out his Evil Master Plan to manipulate a high-ranking paladin into falling? I mean, at the very least, the guard heard all this and should report it to Lord Shojo. Given the volume of the conversation, plenty of others should have heard, too.

Yeah, It is probably a crime in Azure city, and it shows that he was willing to kill an innocent guard for the sake of making a paladin fall.




Really, she is supposed to be paladin, if its so easy to make her fall she doesn't deserve her title anyway. Remember that Belkar didn't force her to raise her hand, she did that all by herself.
Easy? He put her through hours worth of torture and disturbing mental images. I don't think it was so "easy".

[xrestassuredx]

Belkar must have between 10 and 13 WIS, or did in #58, where he was unable to use a CSW scroll (14; 4th lvl ranger spell + 10), but could after V cast Owl's Wisdom (WIS +4).

[The Glyphstone]

Thinking up witty remarks would be Int-based, I think.

Your "wits" roughly equivalate to your common sense, which is definitely Wis-based.

Witty can also be described as "smart", as in "smart***", and smart=Intelligence, right? ;)

[kerberos]

God, will you people read?! I even made a point of explicitly stating that I wasn't saying Belkar wasn't Evil, only that him not being sickened by Unholy Blight isn't evidence that he is. What in the name of Loki does that have to do with anything else at all, including "Rich said so"?!

The fact that he wasn't sickedned by unholy blight might not be evidence that he's evil but the fact that he showed no indication he was even hurt is. He quite clearly wasn't affected at all.

[rashambo]

1. I have 1 more point on the diamonts discussion. It's not about the 5000 gp you pay for a diamont. It's about the amount of diamonts that in the average city costs 5000 gp. So if you take 1 little diamont and pay 5000 gp for it. That you're just sc* *ed. Cause you have to spend a lot more money.

2. If Belkar has a low Wisdom, what makes him so witty. There is no 'wit' stat is there? In White Wolf system there is no wisdom, just wits. And I believe being able to giving witty remarks can only be done if you have high enough wits.

Wit and wisdom are two different things altogether.

[Vampire_Boy]

Sure sue Miko and all that at court for it, and getting him raised as a side effect, why not. But actively raise him on their own? A big funeral is more likely, i think.

You probably haven't grasped the concept of loyalty that Roy was talking about when they chose to stand with Belkar.

[theKOT]

You probably haven't grasped the concept of loyalty that Roy was talking about when they chose to stand with Belkar.
I think they would have let the trial be carried out in a speak with dead kinda set up first. Why raise him to have him executed? I would call that inhumane. But it is true, they probably would have raised him. I don't want to see Belkar dying EVER, and though I question the moralty of Roys continued tolerance of Belkars actions without even a gentle correction, and think that the trial for Belkar should have a guilty verdict, I love Belkar's character and I don't WANT to see him stop being evil. Evil!!!!

[Espher]

A+ comic.

All I've got to say :)

[wagomorph]

How difficult would it actually be for characters of that level to get 5000 gold to buy diamonds for?


Remember there are provisions for local availability of items. If I have enough money for a Green Hummer and ther are no green hummers for miles, I can't buy one no matter how much I offer.

[Kord]

Well, in the FAQ section, the Giant stated that the average character level of the Order of the Stick is 7th to 9th level. I suppose they would have "leveled up" by now, so, yes, I do believe that they would have more than 5000 gp by now. There is also a D&D chart somewhere that says that characters of level X should have Y gp.

[Marller]

You probably haven't grasped the concept of loyalty that Roy was talking about when they chose to stand with Belkar.
I understand it but maybe you should take a closer look. Roy wasn't pledging his undying loyality, no matter what Belkar does.
Don't get me wrong, i don't want him dead. I just think it would be very unfavorable for him to be dead right now and that he's lucky that V reacted in time.

[Sylian]

Kord, Rich himself have stated that they're level 12.

[Scion_of_the_Light]

Remember, V casts disintigrate. Wizards need to be at least 11th level to cast 6th level spells.

[kerberos]

Remember there are provisions for local availability of items. If I have enough money for a Green Hummer and ther are no green hummers for miles, I can't buy one no matter how much I offer.

They're in a major urban center, I don't think finding diamonds would be a problem.

[xyzchyx]

Well, in the FAQ section, the Giant stated that the average character level of the Order of the Stick is 7th to 9th level. I suppose they would have "leveled up" by now, so, yes, I do believe that they would have more than 5000 gp by now. There is also a D&D chart somewhere that says that characters of level X should have Y gp.Having the money is not the same as having the material components that cost that amount of money. They still have to go and buy the requisite components, which prior to now would have probably been out of their way for a raise dead spell.

Belkar's logic is flawed in areas other than what V mentioned, however. Specifically, although it would have been arguably non-good for Miko to have killed Belkar in that circumstance, it would *NOT* have actually been evil, at least not in game terms, and therefore would not have fallen from paladinhood, since Belkar is a known murderer and Miko has a perfectly valid reason to believe that it is dangerous to allow him to live. That said, she still would have likely been rebuked by Shojo, and as it is their intent to lawfully try Belkar for his crimes, she would have likely eaten proverbial crow when one of the Azure City clerics present raised Belkar so he could be tried. In short, Belkar would have sacrificed his life for nothing. At least in that case.

[Scion_of_the_Light]

I think Belkar's original justification for having her Fall was not the fact that she was killing him, but the fact that she was killing him out of rage and hatred, more than paladin-y fury.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Let's not get into another "what is Evil" argument. It's why I've been avoiding the weekly threads after about page four for the last couple weeks.

Re the comic: Believe it or not, I actually, literally, ROFLd when I read the last panel. V is my hero(ine).

[nagora]

They're in a major urban center, I don't think finding diamonds would be a problem.

Maybe there's a cultural dislike for diamonds. Perhaps the locals think they're junk and much prefer, oh, say, sapphires, for example.

[Kish]

Belkar must have between 10 and 13 WIS, or did in #58, where he was unable to use a CSW scroll (14; 4th lvl ranger spell + 10), but could after V cast Owl's Wisdom (WIS +4).
Yeah, Wrecan and I have an ongoing debate about that in the Class and Level Geekery thread. You can read my perspective here (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=comics;action=display;num=1123097648 ;start=432#432), if you're interested. I have to say I think strip #286 added a lot of weight to my side.

[kerberos]

Maybe there's a cultural dislike for diamonds. Perhaps the locals think they're junk and much prefer, oh, say, sapphires, for example.


Yes, but on the other hand maybe the streets are paved with diamonds. We don't have any basis for believing either though.

[battleburn]

Yes, but on the other hand maybe the streets are paved with diamonds. We don't have any basis for believing either though.

Well if nobody wants them, they will probably be really cheap. So it will cost way less then 5000 gp to get the diamonds sufficiant for raising Belkar/Guard.

[Aevii]

Why does V insist that Belkar is dumb? Is does not have much common sense and is quite impulsive, but is also quite cunning, getting Miko to almost fall? not very easily done. I'm not saying he's a genius, but still......
If Belkar couldn't think ahead to the point of considering the cost to resurrect him (and considering a bulk of the dragon hoard was wiped out, I'm not sure the party has that much free resource they'd be willing to spend) it's quite possible that, like the people here that desperately want Miko to fall and hastily explain his
alignment actions as chaotic instead of evil, the actual outcome if his plot "succeeded" would net a reward he wasn't expecting.

Lord Shojo did not call Miko off until she attacked the rest of the order. Without our favorite elf's intervention, it's just as possible that there would be no fall taking place, and a dead Belkar. Leading to nearly everybody wanting him raised-half because they like Belkar, and the other half wanting to see the look on his face when he hears about the results, followed by the bill for 5,000 gold.

[aaronbourque]

make a paladin fall is not necessarily evil. It is certainly chaotic.
Then why is a Paladin freely allowed to associate with Chaotic beings?

Aaron "The Mad Whitaker" Bourque

[zimri]

Ironic, since he has checked up on the Cleric spell list, but not the Ranger spell list (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=58)...

Ahhh but see no one in OOTS can cast ranger spells now can they ? (leastwise not without owl's wisdom being cast on them first)

[The_Weirdo]

You see, the OOTS is a pretty individualistic group. Or, at least, they likely WOULD be in Belkar's case. V was pointing out that BELKAR HIMSELF was likely to have to foot that 5000 GP bill. Plus, we don't know how much they actually have - that loot MIGHT be less than 5000 GP, and, even if it was more, it'd be a pretty heavy expense. There's a difference between protecting Belkar (No expenses, against someone they dislike heavily) and raising him (with expenses, with possibility that he might be executed later on).

[wagomorph]

Maybe there's a cultural dislike for diamonds. Perhaps the locals think they're junk and much prefer, oh, say, sapphires, for example.


Exactly my point. After all, this is Azure City

[Nekkira]

I think if Belkar died, they could save some money and have him reincarnated instead. :) Belkar the Kobold or Belkar the Goblin or Belkar the Half Orc! :o

[nagora]

Well if nobody wants them, they will probably be really cheap. So it will cost way less then 5000 gp to get the diamonds sufficiant for raising Belkar/Guard.

If nobody wants them then no diamond merchant will have dug them up or brought them to market to buy.

[Feste]

Standard statements first... Long-time reader, short-time lurker, first-time poster, Oots is great, etc.

Reincarnation would be excellent for Belkar. I imagine that he'd enjoy being a half-orc. Being a wolverine might fit his personality better, though, and wouldn't be too far off from his current form in terms of size.

Imagine: "You mean that I could get +10 Str and +8 Dex and Con just for letting myself get killed? Where's Miko?"

Actually, he'd come out ahead with most any reincarnated form.

[Jothki]

Well if nobody wants them, they will probably be really cheap. So it will cost way less then 5000 gp to get the diamonds sufficiant for raising Belkar/Guard.

I have to wonder about that. If diamonds are viewed as worthless, does the amount that you need shift? If you buy a perfectly cut diamond worth 5000 gp by itself and then accidently put a large scratch in it, does it become worthless for the spell?

I wonder about the guard's reaction to all of this. Pity he was static in the strip.

[Woolysock]

Yeah, It is probably a crime in Azure city, and it shows that he was willing to kill an innocent guard for the sake of making a paladin fall.
Easy? He put her through hours worth of torture and disturbing mental images. I don't think it was so "easy".
A crime? I should hope not. The very essence of paladinhood is being able to *resist* the taunting of evildoers. A paladin falling is completely the fault of the paladin, by their own nature. It is also something that every single evil being should strive to cause.

[octopod]

Love V, more and more every strip. So AWESOME. I'd hate to see anything seriously bad happen to Belkar, but watching him receive a verbal smackdown from V doesn't get old.



don't think you can raise somebody that dies from old age, neither (well, you CAN, but he would die instantly again. xD)

One thing I don't get, though: What's to prevent one from being repeatedly Reincarnated? Is there any problem with just getting a new body every time your current one becomes too old?

Edit:
Just read the thing about Belkar being reincarnated ("+10 Strength? Sign me up!") and had to LOL, because a couple of months ago my wizard was killed and reincarnated, and for plot reasons the DM decreed I'd come back as a githzerai. Though the level adjustment is annoying, it's been fun to roleplay, and the free improvement to my formerly wizardly physical stats weren't bad either...I'm sure Belkar would enjoy any similar experience.

[theKOT]

A crime? I should hope not. The very essence of paladinhood is being able to *resist* the taunting of evildoers. A paladin falling is completely the fault of the paladin, by their own nature. It is also something that every single evil being should strive to cause.
So? A paladin is supposed to resist evil, but shouldn't it be counted against you to go out of your way to make a paladin fall? Especially if you are willing to kill innocents for that purpose. Most things evil characters strive to do are crimes in LG societies.

[Galandris]

Besides, Unholy Blight only sickens Good characters, not Evil orNeutral.

Just correcting a fact, Unholy Blight in 3.5 affects Neutral characters too, they still take half damage.

[Kish]

The person you're replying to said "sickens," not "damages."

[Nightmarenny]

The person you're replying to said "sickens," not "damages."
If I can remember only Durkon is sickened their (Giant said he missed him save) the others were just over come by evl(what I take as damage). I love how people keep bringing up that Unholy Blight doesn't work on nuetrals even though thats been proven wrong hundreds of times.

I'm saying right now that I believe that Belkar is evil and don't think what i'm saying in anyway implies diferenty. That Belkar know Durkon could cast Raise dead but not remember the requirments kinda makes his attacking Elan for the XP not seem so betray-y.

[Reptile]

Standard statements first... Long-time reader, short-time lurker, first-time poster, Oots is great, etc.

Reincarnation would be excellent for Belkar. I imagine that he'd enjoy being a half-orc. Being a wolverine might fit his personality better, though, and wouldn't be too far off from his current form in terms of size.

Imagine: "You mean that I could get +10 Str and +8 Dex and Con just for letting myself get killed? Where's Miko?"

Actually, he'd come out ahead with most any reincarnated form.

Well, reincarnation would require a druid, and I don't think we've even seen a druid yet, much less one who could be convinced to raise an evil character. (Yes, we have "seen" Lirian, but she appears only in the diary and in Shojo's story, not in current adventures.) Raise Dead is a far more accessible option.

Also, a wolverine isn't one of the standard options for reincarnation (http://d20srd.org/srd/spells/reincarnate.htm)--it would have to be under the "DM choice" (1% chance of occurring), and if I were DM I wouldn't give a reincarnated character a form with those stat adjustments--especially a character like Belkar. Of course, since you bring it up, I can't help but notice kobold (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=44) in the list... :)

Oh, and with specific regard to the current comic:
-It would not be difficult for the Order to find 5000gp worth of diamonds in Azure City if they were so inclined. Whether or not they would bother to do so (given that the Sapphire Guard would certainly oppose any attempt to raise Belkar) is open to debate...Roy could just hire another tracker who he doesn't think would kill him in his sleep (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=14). However, this is moot for the moment, since Belkar is alive. (Although he probably now gets to stand trial for killing the guard.)
-Belkar thinks Miko would have fallen by killing him. He might be right. He might not. I don't think it's very clear-cut either way.
-Even if Belkar is right, he says that a 5th-level cleric spell would bring him back, but that Miko's difficulties would be much more difficult to reverse. Maybe he should have asked Durkon what other (http://d20srd.org/srd/spells/atonement.htm) 5th-level cleric spells there are....
-I understand V's line about the table is a reference to the previous comic and Belkar's intelligence. But when I first read it, I thought it was a reference to people around a gaming table forgetting about the material cost of Raise Dead... :)

Edited to add:

One thing I don't get, though: What's to prevent one from being repeatedly Reincarnated? Is there any problem with just getting a new body every time your current one becomes too old?
-Reincarnate explicitly says it does not work on someone who dies of old age.
-You can get around this by avoiding death by natural causes (growing old and then either committing suicide or simply going on dangerous adventures), although you still get the level or Con loss.
-You can balance out the level loss by gaining at least one level per body. This would technically, RAW, work.
-In that case, the answer to "what's to prevent it?" is: the DM. :) If someone tried to abuse this in a game world I was DM for, some celestial forces might take, ahem, "interest" in the situation.

[Falkus]

Frankly, I wouldn't think that dying of old age would come up that often in most campaigns.

[Gralamin]

Thats the wrong path to immortality, heres the three right ones (from easiest to hardest):
1. Becoming a lich
2. Telepath True Mind Switching every 50 or so years
3. Becoming a Diety

[Yahoo_Serious]

Here's a thought: 5000gp of diamonds would be almost impossible to find in Azure City because: [...drum roll...] V and Belkar say so!!!

(you guys think about these things too much ;D)

[Sundog]

Not at all, if you can afford it. Find a diamond- any diamond at all.
Pay 5000gp for it.



Except, as everyone seems to have forgotten, they don't have 5000gp.

Because all their gold got blown up in the Inn.

And no way would Roy or Durkon countenance Haley stealing one, being Lawful Good and all.

[Scion_of_the_Light]

Thats the wrong path to immortality, heres the three right ones (from easiest to hardest):
1. Becoming a lich


Meh. Vampires are so much better. All you have to do is get bitten, and pre-arrange mercenaries to kill your vampiric master. You normally would be under the Vampire Master's contol, but if you have him killed, then you don't have to worry. Yay, instant vampirism!

I prefer Liches, though. They suit my tastes more. Of course, there are dozens of ways to be immortal. There are at least four different undead ways, and a plethora of other ways. The thing is, death is usually moot in Dnd. You just don't play that long.

[Tawkis]

It's not that Vaarsuvius thinks that Belkar is dumb. In comparison to Vaarsuvius, everyone in the Order is pretty eggheaded.
Actully there's strong evidence that Roy is smarter than V.

http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=31

[Nightmarenny]

Actully there's strong evidence that Roy is smarter than V.

http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=31
(sigh) no that is proof that Roy has something mental that makes him delicios. Possibly the combination of both good int and good wis.

[Kish]

And Charisma.

[Steward]

(sigh) no that is proof that Roy has something mental that makes him delicios. Possibly the combination of both good int and good wis.

I think its because Roy rolled high on Wisdom and Intelligence. While he seems on par with Vaarsuvius he is at least slightly wiser (or V would have taken control after Roy's fumbling during the Starmetal fiasco).

[Hawkeye]

Interesting point (well, it is to me), that the strip has been up for about 18 hours and we've only got 13 pages. For the last strip it was past 30 pages when it had been up for 18 hours.....

[Talas]

This is my first post, and I'm amazed that I even got under 20th page. By the way, great comic. The way Vs brilliance stunned Belkar there was great.

[theKOT]

Interesting point (well, it is to me), that the strip has been up for about 18 hours and we've only got 13 pages. For the last strip it was past 30 pages when it had been up for 18 hours.....
Joke strip vs. Plot strip. I liked this one a lot, but it doesn't raise many questions.

[Solara]

Today's was classic! V and Belkar are like chocolate and peanut butter. :D And as much as I like plot-heavy comics, I agree with those that've said it's nice to take a little breather after all the tension lately. As much as I want to find out what happens with Belkar's trial, it's a little early for another weekend cliffhanger. Even without one, waiting for Monday's strip is usually hard enough as it it...I'm actually kind of glad the strip was late, seeing as it means the next one will be up that much sooner.

As Belkar's little problem with short-sighted plans, well, give the guy some credit. I still say he would have been risen by Shojo's clerics and at the very least gotten to see Miko get a serious reprimand, which while not as good as actually making her fall still would've been a decent consolation prize.

I'm not going to get too much into the whole "Would killing Belkar have been enough to make Miko fall?" argument, because it's already gone on way too long and seems to take over every single one of these threads. Howver, I'll just mention that while the Good or Evil of the act might be (endlessly and fruitlessly) debated, I don't think anyone is going to try and argue that killing him would have been Lawful in any way, shape, or form. Whether actually fallen or not, Miko would've been in a whole heap of trouble...

Poor V! :D That makes two people who got angry at him when they should have been grateful. "No good deed goes unpunished" indeed!

[Steward]

Am I the only one who liked the spotlight on V & Belkar?

[ElfLad]

Miko killing Belkar would have been forgivable given the circumstances, but it would have been at least a Chaotic Neutral act, possibly Chaotic Evil.

[ShadeMoon64]

This one just ROCKS!!! V won a duel of wits with an opponent who was armed but holding the wrong end of the spear! :D

[Logos7]

Don't See How Miko Killing belkar would have been a Chaotic Act, Belkar is the one who wanted to make it a "Honor Thing" and a One on One fight

those things seem lawful to me, perhaps not paladin code of conduct friendly but lawful

Logos

[Solara]

Don't See How Miko Killing belkar would have been a Chaotic Act, Belkar is the one who wanted to make it a "Honor Thing" and a One on One fight

those things seem lawful to me, perhaps not paladin code of conduct friendly but lawful

Logos


Yeah, but it doesn't matter what Belkar wanted. (Heck, what he really wanted was to make her fall, but he didn't get his way about that, either. ;) )

Miko was given a direct order by her master to bring Belkar to the courtroom for trial. No matter how much of an infuriating pain in the @ss he was, killing him out of hand over a personal vendetta would be willfully disregarding that order in favor of her own wants, and thus chaotic.

[kerberos]

Except, as everyone seems to have forgotten, they don't have 5000gp.

Because all their gold got blown up in the Inn.

And no way would Roy or Durkon countenance Haley stealing one, being Lawful Good and all.
Haley managed to rescue a bag of gold actually

[Tawkis]

Don't forget the Bags of holding, they still have Xykon treasure IIRC.

[JazzManJim]

Yeah, but it doesn't matter what Belkar wanted. (Heck, what he really wanted was to make her fall, but he didn't get his way about that, either. ;) )

Miko was given a direct order by her master to bring Belkar to the courtroom for trial. No matter how much of an infuriating pain in the @ss he was, killing him out of hand over a personal vendetta would be willfully violating of that order in favor of her own wants, and thus chaotic.


Actually, Miko was ordered to bring the Order to Azure City to stand trial or to kill them if they wouldn't be captured. Note that in Strip 120 Miko tells Shojo that her blades would be bathed in their blood. In Strip 200 she tells them plainly that their choices are to surrender to stand trial or die. They surrendered (well, she had to beat them down twice after that, but still...) and she brought them in.

It's not such leap to believe that Belkar's escape (and killing a guard in that escape) would be seen as a breach of that surrender, especially since Belkar pretty solidly resisted her attempt to recapture him. So she'd be justified in killing him, even if he was down and helpless. After all, what prison in Azure City could hold him since he had escaped from the best one they could prepare for him.

it was Lord Shojo that admonished her only after she squared off against the rest of the Order. He chose to reinterpret his order differently in the courtroom. It was pretty obvious that it was the first time she had heard that interpretation from him since he could have easily told her when he first sent her that the whole "bathing her blades in their blood" wasn't what he wanted.

She was still acting well within the guidelines of her orders and her code when she was about to Smite Belkar. Had she done so after the order from Lord Shojo, you'd be right. Before then? Not so much.

[Solara]

Actually, Miko was ordered to bring the Order to Azure City to stand trial or to kill them if they wouldn't be captured.

But she'd already brought them to Azure City and fulfilled that order. I was referring to Shojo's next order, which I gathered from #264 and #265 (not to mention #285) was that she was supposed to escort them all to the audience chamber to be tried for weakening the fabric of the universe. No mention of bathing blades or anything else in blood this time.

After Belkar was "escorted" in, (which she did just fine, even if most people would have used a door) as far as she knew the trial was ready to commence. And even in a quasi-medieval fantasy world, I'm sure interrupting the legal process by killing a defendent during a trial is frowned upon, to say the least.

[Delgarde]

It would be surprisingly easy. Belkar has determined that Miko is unworthy to be a paladin and must for in order to maintain the sactity of Good. It's a bad argument I know and you should be able topoke holes in it.

So, Belkar is some kind of agent sent by the Powers of Law and Good to test Miko's worthiness?

[Delgarde]

Well if nobody wants them, they will probably be really cheap. So it will cost way less then 5000 gp to get the diamonds sufficiant for raising Belkar/Guard.

Nope. The spell specifies 5000 gp worth of diamonds. It doesn't give a quantity, just a value. So if diamonds are cheap, logically you'd need to buy them by the wagon load.

[Delgarde]

I believe it is the Book of Vile Darkness that states that intentionally making a Paladin fall is a heinously, despicably evil act. On par with selling your soul to demons.

Oh, I don't think it's quite as bad - to me, it seems an extremely *chaotic* act, but only moderately evil. Particularly given he's not actually trying to turn her all the way to evil, just to force her into a state where she loses all her powers until she can atone.

That said, getting a paladin to fall is the kind of thing demons would sell *their* souls to achieve. Maybe Belkar could run training classes?

[Delgarde]

Plus, we don't know how much they actually have - that loot MIGHT be less than 5000 GP, and, even if it was more, it'd be a pretty heavy expense.

They've got plenty. Haley has (had?) something like eight bags of holding full of treasure (going by comic #130). Story-requirements aside, they could be filled with copper pieces and she'd still have enough to pay her fathers ransom several times over. 5000gp should be a minor cost to them - indeed, for another 2000gp or so, they could throw in a +2 amulet of wisdom to reduce the odds of needing it again.

[kerberos]

-Even if Belkar is right, he says that a 5th-level cleric spell would bring him back, but that Miko's difficulties would be much more difficult to reverse. Maybe he should have asked Durkon what other (http://d20srd.org/srd/spells/atonement.htm) 5th-level cleric spells there are....

According to the Complete Paladins Handbook, an evil act results in the immidiate and irrevocable loss of all Paladin powers, none of which may be restore by magic means. Personally I think killing Belkar is chaotic, but not evil, but Belkar might have feelt otherwise. Also of course they may have changed to rules since.

[Delgarde]

If someone tried to abuse this in a game world I was DM for, some celestial forces might take, ahem, "interest" in the situation.


Not really a matter for Celestials, but for Inevitables - hunting down those who try to avoid death is exactly what Maruts are for. From the online SRD...


Any who use unnatural means to extend their life span could be targeted by a marut. Those who take extraordinary measures to cheat death in some other way might be labeled transgressors as well. Those who use magic to reverse death aren’t worthy of a marut’s attention unless they do so repeatedly or on a massive scale.

The situation discribed would presumably come under the third sentence, repeated use of magic to avoid death.

[feral]

First time poster, blah blah blah...

A few thoughts on this:

1.Assuming that the world in which OotS is set matches our own as far as availability of gems is concerned, diamonds would be far less rare than in real life (unless it also mirrors our world insofar as diamond cartels are concerned.) Of course, this is never the case in any video game, considering diamonds are always more valuable than emeralds in games, yet I am certain than they occur more often in nature on Earth. Just something I want to point out, because I hate diamonds. >:(

2.Concerning Raise Dead, shouldn't the penalty for murder be "Death or provide the means to raise the victim from the dead?

3.About Miko: don't forget that Miko is not just a Paladin, but a Samurai, as well. Thus she must follow the bushido, which prohibits slaying an unarmed person unless it is a lawful execution or an assisted suicide (seppuku.) If loss of Samurai status equates to loss of Paladin status, she would fall (unless Belkar's "do it" statement counts as asking for assistance in seppuku. ;))

[Delgarde]

Accorsding to the Complete Paladins Handbook, an evil act results in the immidiate and irrevocable loss of all Paladin powers, none of which may be restore by magic means.

That conflicts with the core rule books, which allow the paladin to seek atonement to regain class features and continue to advance as a paladin. No mention of permanent loss of powers, even for the most evil acts (although actually turning evil and becoming a blackguard would do it thanks to the multiclassing rules for paladins).

[phlip]

Accorsding to the Complete Paladins Handbook, an evil act results in the immidiate and irrevocable loss of all Paladin powers, none of which may be restore by magic means. Personally I think killing Belkar is chaotic, but not evil, but Belkar might have feelt otherwise. Also of course they may have changed to rules since.


Restore Class

A paladin who has lost her class features due to committing an evil act may have her paladinhood restored to her by this spell.

[Romalar]

They've got plenty. Haley has (had?) something like eight bags of holding full of treasure (going by comic #130). Story-requirements aside, they could be filled with copper pieces and she'd still have enough to pay her fathers ransom several times over. 5000gp should be a minor cost to them - indeed, for another 2000gp or so, they could throw in a +2 amulet of wisdom to reduce the odds of needing it again.
Say each Bag of Holding holds 1,500 lbs (the largest listed in the SRD). There are 50 cp in 1 lb. This means she'd have 600,000 cp if all bags were full of copper and they were all the largest size. This would be only 3% of her needed 200,000 gp. Even silver wouldn't be enough. Her bags would have to be full of things worth their weight in gold :)

[nagora]

First time poster, blah blah blah...

A few thoughts on this:

1.Assuming that the world in which OotS is set matches our own as far as availability of gems is concerned, diamonds would be far less rare than in real life (unless it also mirrors our world insofar as diamond cartels are concerned.) Of course, this is never the case in any video game, considering diamonds are always more valuable than emeralds in games, yet I am certain than they occur more often in nature on Earth. Just something I want to point out, because I hate diamonds. >:(


Good for you! I'm glad to see I'm not the only one. Diamonds are the great fraud of the gem-world. They are, as you say, only expensive because of the continued work of cartels and are actually quite common. I've worked in a diamond merchant's office and while they do look nice in big piles that need two hands to carry (as do most gems), they are a total con. I wouldnae have one in the house.

Diamonds are for drill-tips. Anything else and they just say "The person wearing me is a sucker".

[Hawkeye]

3.About Miko: don't forget that Miko is not just a Paladin, but a Samurai, as well. Thus she must follow the bushido, which prohibits slaying an unarmed person unless it is a lawful execution or an assisted suicide (seppuku.) If loss of Samurai status equates to loss of Paladin status, she would fall (unless Belkar's "do it" statement counts as asking for assistance in seppuku. ;))


Her title is samurai, but she hasn't taken any levels in any class with the word "samurai" in it (strip 209), so the loss of any skills/features that are taken away from going against the samurai code is irrelevant.

[Karkadinn]

Oh, I don't think it's quite as bad - to me, it seems an extremely *chaotic* act, but only moderately evil. Particularly given he's not actually trying to turn her all the way to evil, just to force her into a state where she loses all her powers until she can atone.

That said, getting a paladin to fall is the kind of thing demons would sell *their* souls to achieve. Maybe Belkar could run training classes?

A) Whether or not she'd be able to atone is questionable. And regardless, Belkar almost certainly doesn't want her to be able to atone.
B) Causing a Champion of Goodness to lose their direct contact with that Goodness that he or she has strived so hard and long to achieve and keep does not strike me as anything less than totally, utterly Eeeevvuuuuhhhllll. It's akin to depriving Beethoven of his ability to create music, or trying to make a saint into an atheist.
C) In particular, trying to make Miko fall, given that her paladinhood is all she has in life, seems even more evil than trying to make a normal paladin fall. Other paladins may have some kind of support system, but Miko without her paladinhood is not Miko anymore. Not only would it 'just' make her fall, but it could potentially drive her insane. He's been mentally torturing her to a breaking point, as we can see by her flipping out near the end.
D) I don't remember if this was you who posted this last bit or not, but there was a post about some chaotic neutrals trying to make paladins fall just because they're annoying. That seems not only more than chaotic neutral to me, that seems psychotic. Like, say, magically cursing a fighter to be unable to wield weapons ever again for being annoying, instead of just, you know, asking him politely to be less annoying. And more than any classes save perhaps the cleric and druid, a paladin's paladinness is a core, important part of who they are as people.
Of course, the trend of playing chaotic neutrals as whimsical psychos who do whatever the heck they want regardless of the realistic consequences to others is hardly unusual, but it is annoying and stupid if overused, IMHO. Just as Lawful Good != Lawful Stupid, Chaotic Neutral != Chaotic Jerk.

[Alfryd]

Whether or not she'd be able to atone is questionable.
And the answer is yes. Otherwise, I fully agree. Hence, my fervent desire to see Belkar decapitated and his body dismembered.

[battleburn]

Good for you! I'm glad to see I'm not the only one. Diamonds are the great fraud of the gem-world. They are, as you say, only expensive because of the continued work of cartels and are actually quite common. I've worked in a diamond merchant's office and while they do look nice in big piles that need two hands to carry (as do most gems), they are a total con. I wouldnae have one in the house.

Diamonds are for drill-tips. Anything else and they just say "The person wearing me is a sucker".

So what's your point, this just means that diamonds are probably a lot cheaper here in Azure city because they do not think of them as that valuable.
So it will be a lot cheaper then 5000 gp to get the right amount of diamonds.

[Sebastian]

Then why is a Paladin freely allowed to associate with Chaotic beings?

Aaron "The Mad Whitaker" Bourque

I fail the see the connection between my and your sentence outside of the word "chaotic".

[phlip]

So it will be a lot cheaper then 5000 gp to get the right amount of diamonds.
But the right amount of diamonds is "5000 gp worth".

Either there is some universal value throughout D&D for a diamond to translate this value into a quantity, in which case they would almost certainly cost the same in Azure City, or there isn't and "5000 gp worth" means "whatever you can buy for 5000 gp".

You can't have it both ways, and say "5000 gp's worth of diamonds is X diamonds, which may not actually cost 5000 gp".

Besides, a free market doesn't really happen when the prices are fixed in black and white in the appropriate book...

[Sebastian]

So? A paladin is supposed to resist evil, but shouldn't it be counted against you to go out of your way to make a paladin fall? Especially if you are willing to kill innocents for that purpose. Most things evil characters strive to do are crimes in LG societies.
Absolutely not. If you kill innocent it will becounted against you that you killed innocents, but if I leave a bag of gold near a paladin and he give in to temptation and steal it, should I be considered responsable for it? I think not, not even if I planned it that way, if he can't resist temptation he is an awful paladin.

[Sebastian]

So, Belkar is some kind of agent sent by the Powers of Law and Good to test Miko's worthiness?

Ssssshhh! Put a tag spoiler at least. ;D

[He_Saw_Me_Roll_It]

B) Causing a Champion of Goodness to lose their direct contact with that Goodness that he or she has strived so hard and long to achieve and keep does not strike me as anything less than totally, utterly Eeeevvuuuuhhhllll. It's akin to depriving Beethoven of his ability to create music, or trying to make a saint into an atheist.


Bear in mind that atheists post here too.

On topic, taking away someone's powerups because they annoy you probably counts as evil, the same as physically hurting someone or stealing from them because they annoy you. It might be a funny, Belkaresque kind of evil that is highly entertaining though.

[Electric_Monkey]

Does the "5000 gp worth of diamonds is whatever you can get for 5000gp" mean that you can buy the cheapest diamond you can find, sell it to somebody for 5000gp, buy it right back for the same amount and then have a 5000gp diamond?

[jaded_empath]

So, Belkar is some kind of agent sent by the Powers of Law and Good to test Miko's worthiness?


Well, it's possible even that he's not aware he's being used as such - deities often work in subtle and inscrutable ways... :)

(and welcome all; long-time reader, first-time poster; yay for Rich and here's hoping he's having a nice, well-deserved rest :D )

[jaded_empath]

Bear in mind that atheists post here too.


Okay, then - "turn an athiest into a saint" ;)

I concur that Belkar's actions are just simply evil, particularly his stated delighting in denying Miko's powers to her (you could make a paladin fall to help him/her learn, and perhaps be neutral, but to do so a) because she annoys you and b) "because it'd be FUN" is definitely evil - taking pleasure in causing someone else misfortune).

And I for one, still wonder what Mr. Scruffy had to say to Roy.... ???

[mbuna]

I might have been the first one to mention the free market price of diamonds several pages back in this thread, but i was clearly joking.

Magic is not affected by the economy. You need a fixed amount of material to cast a spell. When a spell says you need 5000gp worth of diamonds, that's just a tool that helps DMs and players know what they have to spend, on average, to get the requisite amount.

ObArgument: Joke strips are much better than plot strips, unless they deal with the Great Outdoor Fight.

[battleburn]

Does the "5000 gp worth of diamonds is whatever you can get for 5000gp" mean that you can buy the cheapest diamond you can find, sell it to somebody for 5000gp, buy it right back for the same amount and then have a 5000gp diamond?

About this I hear several different things:

1. In the handbook there are some fixed prices for diamonds. These prices change a bit when you go to different places. The prices are more like guidelines.
If you interpret the rules like this, then you need an amount of diamonds that cost in the average city 5000 gp, if you can get them cheaper. Lucky you.

2. Several people mentioned that you can buy a tiny diamond and pay 5000gp for it, no matter what it actually costs. In that case you go strictly to what the handbook says. The diamonds have to cost 5000 gp end of discussion. In this case if you think of it from the cleric point of view. This means that by paying 5000 gp for it, the diamonds gained a special value for yourself. They cost you a certain amount, so extra value, so usable for spells.
In this case what electric monkey says about selling it to someone and then buy it back. It then hasn't really cost you anything. So the "magical" bonus value needed for the spell isn't there.
!!This trick will not work!!

[feral]

Her title is samurai, but she hasn't taken any levels in any class with the word "samurai" in it (strip 209), so the loss of any skills/features that are taken away from going against the samurai code is irrelevant.

I'm aware that Samurai is her title, but I was thinking of it as having the Paladin class but calling it Samurai (something the PHB says is okay.) Considering that for all intents and purposes in DnD, a Katana is just a masterwork Bastard Sword that you imagine as a Katana (unless there is a sourcebook that give different stats for it now) it makes perfect sense that the Paladin wielding it would call herself a Samurai. Thus, as I said, assuming this is true (and that in a world with no Japan, the Bushido exists,) if she broke the Samurai code of conduct, she would also break the Paladin code. In fact even if they weren't equivalent, the codes of conduct would be. You cannot have the title of Samurai, without the code that goes with it, and a Paladin has to be dedicated to a code. Not follow two separate codes.

Something I wanted to bring up earlier, but forgot: Belkar was playing a prank. He said himself he thought it would be funny. I could imagine any non-lawful, non-good gnome would find it impossible to resist pulling the same prank, especially on someone like Miko (I'm not calling Belkar a gnome, saying that gnomes are pranksters.) Of course, I do believe that Belkar is Chaotic Evil, but not as evil as some people think (particularly in the "evil over good thread")

[Ebon_Drake]

Something I wanted to bring up earlier, but forgot: Belkar was playing a prank. He said himself he thought it would be funny. I could imagine any non-lawful, non-good gnome would find it impossible to resist pulling the same prank, especially on someone like Miko (I'm not calling Belkar a gnome, saying that gnomes are pranksters.) Of course, I do believe that Belkar is Chaotic Evil, but not as evil as some people think (particularly in the "evil over good thread")
A prank it may be, but as pranks go its about the most evil kind someone could pull, as he was basically aiming to ruin her life. I might call cutting someone's brakes a prank, but I doubt the victim would see it that way. Of course, in my opinion most practical jokes a pretty malicious anyway, but there's a world of difference between shaving her eyebrows off and ruining her career (even if it was only a temporary fall.)

[theKOT]

Absolutely not. If you kill innocent it will becounted against you that you killed innocents, but if I leave a bag of gold near a paladin and he give in to temptation and steal it, should I be considered responsable for it? I think not, not even if I planned it that way, if he can't resist temptation he is an awful paladin.

Putting a bag of gold near a paladin and them stealing it is FAR different than killing an innocent person and then attacking the paladin in an attempt to make them fall. Maybe intent doesn't count for anything in Azure city, but it does in most places, and I would say that the lengths to which Belkar went in an attempt to make Miko fall should be considered. WHY someone did something is sometimes as important as what they were doing. Saying that someone who can't resist killing an evil creature after a battle is a bad paladin isn't true. Maybe the deed is grossly chaotic(in this circumstance) but it does not make the person doing it unable to resist temptation. By that you might say a paladin who gave away secrets after hours of torture was a bad paladin.

[Jothki]

If you are going to fall anyway at some point, wouldn't it be best to do it in a courtroom surrounded by paladins and a Celestial?

[JazzManJim]

But she'd already brought them to Azure City and fulfilled that order. I was referring to Shojo's next order, which I gathered from #264 and #265 (not to mention #285) was that she was supposed to escort them all to the audience chamber to be tried for weakening the fabric of the universe. No mention of bathing blades or anything else in blood this time.

After Belkar was "escorted" in, (which she did just fine, even if most people would have used a door) as far as she knew the trial was ready to commence. And even in a quasi-medieval fantasy world, I'm sure interrupting the legal process by killing a defendent during a trial is frowned upon, to say the least.



You really are stretching the definition of "escorted".

Belkar was fuly resisting arrest. He also wasn't a defendant at that time, since the Outsider had already rendered his verdict, without Belkar being there (and did you notice that no one so much as asked where Belkar and Miko were during the whole trial?).

The situation was that Belkar was an escaped prisoner who had murdered one guard and attempted ot murder a second in the escape process. He was loose on the grounds of the castle. Miko is duty bound to protect the people in that castle by removing that threat. Obviously, merely subduing Belkar would not work. He'd already been subdued and the cost of that was a dead guard. No one in the same situation would think "Oh, well. I'll just subdue him again. Surely *this* time he won't kill anyone else.

Miko may be an ass but she's miles and miles from stupid.

[aaronbourque]

I fail the see the connection between my and your sentence outside of the word "chaotic".
It's not chaotic to cause a Paladin to lose their powers, because they can freely associate with Chaotic characters, without qualification, and perform more than one Chaotic action before losing their powers, but if they knowlingly associate with an Evil character, or commit an Evil act, they lose their powers.

More Evil in the world is EVIL, not Chaotic.

So is less Good.

Aaron "The Mad Whitaker" Bourque

[ElfLad]

The situation was that Belkar was an escaped prisoner who had murdered one guard and attempted ot murder a second in the escape process. He was loose on the grounds of the castle. Miko is duty bound to protect the people in that castle by removing that threat. Obviously, merely subduing Belkar would not work. He'd already been subdued and the cost of that was a dead guard. No one in the same situation would think "Oh, well. I'll just subdue him again. Surely *this* time he won't kill anyone else.
Hooray for the logic of Arkham Asylum!

[Yahoo_Serious]

wow, Giant certainly took the wind out of the sails of the anti-Belkar faction, no?

less than 20 posts in the last 12 hours...

[Kish]

wow, Giant certainly took the wind out of the sails of the anti-Belkar faction, no?

less than 20 posts in the last 12 hours...
Uh?

Explain.

[theKOT]

Uh?

Explain.
Quite obviously, Anti-Belkarians were doing most of the posting in the two previous threads. ::)
And because they aren't rehashing topics from previous comics extensively, they've admitted defeat.

[nagora]

wow, Giant certainly took the wind out of the sails of the anti-Belkar faction, no?

less than 20 posts in the last 12 hours...

Does confirming what they were saying really count as taking the wind out of their sails?

[Yahoo_Serious]

20 posts in 12 hours refers to the main comic thread; if you were to look at the rate of posting recently, this would be super light (especially for a long sunday afternoon)!

As for the anti-Belkarites, the major disappointment must be that for Shojo (and I think Giant as well), the "Belkar is EVIL therefore Miko must SMITE him!" argument just doesn't fly...

[theKOT]

20 posts in 12 hours refers to the main comic thread; if you were to look at the rate of posting recently, this would be super light (especially for a long sunday afternoon)!

As for the anti-Belkarites, the major disappointment must be that for Shojo (and I think Giant as well), the "Belkar is EVIL therefore Miko must SMITE him!" argument just doesn't fly...
What? What does that have to do with this comic? That question was answered in the previous one.

[Kish]

20 posts in 12 hours refers to the main comic thread; if you were to look at the rate of posting recently, this would be super light (especially for a long sunday afternoon)!

As for the anti-Belkarites, the major disappointment must be that for Shojo (and I think Giant as well), the "Belkar is EVIL therefore Miko must SMITE him!" argument just doesn't fly...
I see. So TheKOT's sarcasm was in fact correct, you are assuming that "anti-Belkarites" have done most of the posting in the main thread in the past* and that their lack of posts must indicate severe disappointment.

*Wow, I thought Belkar was the most popular character in the comic. I stand corrected; he's the most hated.

[Nightmarenny]

I see. So TheKOT's sarcasm was in fact correct, you are assuming that "anti-Belkarites" have done most of the posting in the main thread in the past* and that their lack of posts must indicate severe disappointment.

*Wow, I thought Belkar was the most popular character in the comic. I stand corrected; he's the most hated.
It is a sad state of afairs when people vote against the Crazy but funny sociopathic bastard. I wonder if their will be this much hate for bender is the Futurama movie. :(

[theKOT]

It is a sad state of afairs when people vote against the Crazy but funny sociopathic bastard. I wonder if their will be this much hate for bender is the Futurama movie. :(
Hey, I was pro-Miko(defending her against the "she should fall!!onehundredeleven" crowd) but I like Belkar. The two are NOT mutually exclusive.
Edit:
@V
Ah, ok. Just making sure.

[Nightmarenny]

Hey, I was pro-Miko(defending her against the "she should fall!!onehundredeleven" crowd) but I like Belkar. The two are NOT mutually exclusive.
Wan't saying theywere.

[ElfLad]

My favorite character is Thog. And my favorite order character is Elan. Belkar is, quite frankly, one of my least favorites because he's so one-dimensional. Not that I want him to die, but I believe Miko would have been justified. And a death would have serious dramatic and storytelling potential.

P.S. I wonder... Was there as much "Belkar is going to die" furor when this comic was posted?
http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=164

[Nightmarenny]

My favorite character is Thog. And my favorite order character is Elan. Belkar is, quite frankly, one of my least favorites because he's so one-dimensional. Not that I want him to die, but I believe Miko would have been justified. And a death would have serious dramatic and storytelling potential.

P.S. I wonder... Was there as much "Belkar is going to die" furor when this comic was posted?
http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=164
Nope. Quite oddly no one seemed to want Belkar dead intile Miko showed. I think around Miko was when Giant told off anybody who believed that Belkar was not evil. This may have caused to. Many people seem to be of the mindset that evil should die because its evil. For some its so ingrained in their head they don't even reliese.

Or it could be that alot of people joined the forums that don't like or get "Dark" humer. Thats about the only kind Belkars good for.

[Hurlbut]

What kind of weapon is that guard holding? Look like about 5 1/2 foot shaft with axe bladehead.

[Justinian]

What kind of weapon is that guard holding? Look like about 5 1/2 foot shaft with axe bladehead.

Strictly by the PHB weapon drawings, it doesn't really seem to exist in-game, heh. It most closely resembles a battleaxe, albeit a longshafted one.

[Hurlbut]

Strictly by the PHB weapon drawings, it doesn't really seem to exist in-game, heh. It most closely resembles a battleaxe, albeit a longshafted one.
Having a long shaft, especially as long as that one make it err into the territory of the polearm.

[Justinian]

True enough but it isn't a glaive, ranseur, guisarme, lance, spear, halberd, etc, etc. There is no pointed edge on it, so it's going to be slashing only. Not sure how you'd wield it, though I'd imagine it'd be slightly different from both a glaive and a battleaxe, and it wouldn't think it would be a one-hander due to the extra bulk and length. I guess if you swung it from the base with two hands it would be most effective, and might even be a reach weapon.

Interestingly, the greataxe isn't a very long weapon, it's just double-sided and very heavy so it requires two hands.

I doubt the Giant was trying to give specific flavor to the Azure City guard by giving them a special or exotic weapon, but technically, I guess they do.

[The Doctor]

I think it's a halberd. It is missing the pointy bit at the top, but it is a stick figure comic, after all.

[AmoDman]

Strictly by the PHB weapon drawings, it doesn't really seem to exist in-game, heh. It most closely resembles a battleaxe, albeit a longshafted one.

I'd imagine it's the same weapon the Dwarven Defender (DMG) is using -

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/dmg35_gallery/DMG35_PG186_WEB.jpg

[nagora]

What kind of weapon is that guard holding? Look like about 5 1/2 foot shaft with axe bladehead.

That would be a poleaxe (ie, an axe on a pole). Rarely illustrated because they quickly diverge into all the other things which "poleaxe" has become something of a generic name for but originally, that's pretty well what the word meant.

There were some pictures of poleaxes in the 1st Ed Unearthed Arcana. The guard's blade is a bit fancy but then he has a general look of a ceremonial guard.

[Delgarde]

I'd imagine it's the same weapon the Dwarven Defender (DMG) is using -

Nah, that's just an ordinary greataxe, although dwarven proportions make it look bigger than it would if a human was holding it. In fact, Thog uses one, so for comparison, look at strips like #51 or #253.

The guard's weapon is much bigger, so as others have said, some kind of polearm. Not a weapon with reach by the look of it, so probably intended to be a halberd or similar. Fairly typical weapon for a guard.

[RebelRogue]

Nah, that's just an ordinary greataxe, although dwarven proportions make it look bigger than it would if a human was holding it.
The Dwarven Defender is using a shield as well, so I doubt it's a greataxe he's wielding. My guess is more along the lines of Dwarven Waraxe.

[ekedolphin]

Granted this topic was last discussed about 13 pages ago (not that I kept track of the exact number), but I'd like to take a moment to rehash the "Ears" thing.

Aside from the rather jovial way in which Belkar calls V "Ears" in strip #125, Belkar also called V "Ears" in #107-- and did it in much more of an insulting way.

So he *has* used it as an insult, even a racial slur, on more than one occasion.

Now, about this strip-- loved it! V and Belkar have always played off each other very, very well. And (the speculation about how the Order could acquire diamonds notwithstanding), I love how V punched a hole in Belkar's master plan so easily.


"SHUT UP!" Hee.

[Shatteredtower]

Well, at least we've seen an end to that virtually endless stream of pointless complaints about how pointless the alignment debates were in earlier threads. How off topic can you get? :P

...Oh. :-[

I do have to point out to people that it's pretty much impossible to speculate on diamonds being worthless in any part of a D&D-type world. When a gem sees that much use as a material component, especially in the raising process, there's always going to be a demand for it anywhere spellcasters gather. ;)

I wonder if it's back to the isolation pits for Belkar or if he'll get a cell this time?