[3.5] Crossbow PrC

[Thurbane]

Are there any PrC dedicated to being a crossbow user?

I know there's a handful of feats, but I was wondering about prestige classes.

Not for a specific build or character I have in mind, just curious.

Official would be best, but Dragon Mag and third party are OK, or even PF if nothing else is available.

Cheers - T

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I did a search for all classes that mention "crossbow" in the class features, all it found were classes that grant proficiency with one. No crossbow-specific class features anywhere, but that didn't include dragon magazine.

The Dragondex (http://www.aeolia.net/dragondex/articles-subject.html) shows the following Dragon magazine articles:
"Hitting the Bullseye" 349 p20
"Ready! Aim! Fire!" 182 p68

[Gruftzwerg]

I'm curious about this too. I am working on an optimized hand crossbow build atm.
But so far I couldn't find anything crossbow specific. Only things that work with it. Imho Deepwood Sniper is the most important PRC related. It gives double crit range and increases the critmultiplier twice. Extra range increment and Miss Chance reduction are nice goodies.
But other than that, there is barely something. Most ranged prc are more bow focused and don't work for crossbows. E.g. Archane Archer, which only has arrow abilities that don't work with crossbows..

But I'm not done with the build and the research for it. Maybe I have missed something. Would be nice thou^^

as a sidenote, while not being a prc, the Urban Druid seems to be sole base class so far that I have found that gives proficiency "crossbow (any)". I am now trying to figure out (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?609695-Do-Urban-Druids-get-Double-Crossbow-proficiency-for-free) if it gives double crossbow proficiency too or not.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Realistically, crossbows are bad in D&D. Historically they were good because they were able to puncture armor, and because they were so easy to learn to use. It would take years to train a longbowman, but any conscripted soldier could be taught to use a crossbow within a few days. That's why they're simple weapons, and the game designers chose to make sure simple weapons are always inferior to martial weapons. Bows are the weapon of a skilled marksman, crossbows are the weapon of a hobbyist.

[Gruftzwerg]

Realistically, crossbows are bad in D&D. Historically they were good because they were able to puncture armor, and because they were so easy to learn to use. It would take years to train a longbowman, but any conscripted soldier could be taught to use a crossbow within a few days. That's why they're simple weapons, and the game designers chose to make sure simple weapons are always inferior to martial weapons. Bows are the weapon of a skilled marksman, crossbows are the weapon of a hobbyist.

Which is even more of a reason to make an optimized crossbow build. Hopefully mine will soon be finished. I am working on some minor details, like if I can get easy access to double crossbows or not as mentioned above.

[Wildstag]

In Drow of the Underdark, there is the PrC Cavestalker. It has two Combat Style options: Hand Crossbow or Spiked Chain. The Hand Crossbow path gives the EWP (Hand Crossbow) and Rapid Reload at level 4. At level 7 yoou get the Improved Combat Style that gives Rapid Shot. If you already have Ranger archery combat style and the ranged option from level 4, then you get Manyshot instead.

That's the only one I know of.

[Gruftzwerg]

btw, quick Crossbow questions:

Rapid Shot + TWF Crossbows

Do I get 2 extra Attacks?

If yes:
How many -2 penalties for Rapid Shot? I hope that each weapon only gives itself -2 and doesn't carry over to the other one.

[Psyren]

Official would be best, but Dragon Mag and third party are OK, or even PF if nothing else is available.


I had to do a double-take, I don't think I've ever read those words in one of your threads before :smallbiggrin::smalltongue:

I don't have a specific suggestion for your question (I've only seen classes/archeypes that were crossbow-specific, rather than prestige classes) but an alternate route might be finding a PrC that enhances a category of weapon that can include a crossbow, and using that. For example, a PrC that enhances your deity's favored weapon, like Pathfinder's Sentinel PrC (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/s-z/sentinel/), would become a crossbow PrC simply by you worshiping a crossbow-using deity like Abadar. (And his Obediences aren't bad either - a Zelekhut ally and Dictum bolts are bound to give a lot of enemies pause.)

[AvatarVecna]

If PF material is on the table...well, not PrCs, but there's archetype support.

Fighter/Crossbowman (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter/archetypes/paizo-fighter-archetypes/crossbowman) focuses around readied actions and (usually) the Vital Strike feat tree, to make sure that your one shot a round has as much oomph as possible (and hopefully infringes on your action economy as little as possible). Really Vital Strike is great for any PF character doing crossbow stuff (in a "best of the worst" kinda way?).

Gunslinger/Bolt Ace (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/gunslinger/archetypes/paizo-gunslinger-archetypes/bolt-ace) gets to use Gunslinger Deeds with crossbows, which includes potential touch AC targeting, FF targeting, and eventually faster reload that (IIRC) stacks with Rapid Reload. Oh, and at lvl 1 it gets proficiency in all crossbows, and starts with a free masterwork crossbow of your choice. So if there's some exotic number you've had your eye on...I mean idk for sure, it's possible that the ability's been errata'd so only normal crossbows are options, but that's what's on the SRD so that's what I'm going with. I'm sure that can be used to pick up some weird exotic 3.5 crossbow that's actually worth using.

[SangoProduction]

If pathfinder is on the table, then Spheres of Might's Dual Wielding and Barrage spheres are both good for the stereotypical dual crossbows. (I have a build guide in my signature. Just change guns for crossbows. Basically the same thing.)
Sniper sphere would obviously be nice for the heavy crossbow. But...heavy crossbows kinda suck, if we're being honest, and sniper sphere isn't much better.

For class, Technician has an invention category specifically for crossbows. So yeah.
Some standouts are: Speed Lever (reduce reload action by up to 2 steps); Super-heated (bonus fire damage); and Poison Dispenser, for if you really like poisons. I guess.
And if you are really down for the sniper deal, you can pick up Pressurized Shot for 1d6 per odd technician level to your next shot as a move action.

[Uncle Pine]

Deepwood Sniper and Peerless Archer, two of if not the most useful PrCs for archers, both work with crossbows as well.

[One Step Two]

Just wanted to add, the Targeteer variant Fighter from Dragon 310, gives proficiency 2 Exotic Ranged weapons, which can include the Hand-Crossbow, and the Great Crossbow from Races of stone.

And, Order of the Bow initiate, while needing weapon focus (bow) for the class, the abilities specifically call out Ranged Attacks, not that you need to be using a regular Bow.

[Gruftzwerg]

Deepwood Sniper and Peerless Archer, two of if not the most useful PrCs for archers, both work with crossbows as well.
Peerless Archer only has bow skills and wouldn't work with crossbow by RAW.


Just wanted to add, the Targeteer variant Fighter from Dragon 310, gives proficiency 2 Exotic Ranged weapons, which can include the Hand-Crossbow, and the Great Crossbow from Races of stone.

And, Order of the Bow initiate, while needing weapon focus (bow) for the class, the abilities specifically call out Ranged Attacks, not that you need to be using a regular Bow.
Doesn't offer anything special that is worth the prc. The extended Sneak Attack range is eqsier covered by Crossbow Sniper feat. Further a feat heavy build that further wastes 2 feats on Weapon Focus. One to enter the PRC, the other to make use of Precision dmg. Imho not worth it. There are other ways to get nice precision or overall dmg.

[Uncle Pine]

Peerless Archer only has bow skills and wouldn't work with crossbow by RAW.
Ranged Sneak Attack, Sharp Shooting and Power Shot aren't restricted to bows:

Ranged Sneak Attack (Ex): When wearing light armor or no armor, a peerless archer can draw and fire in a split second, catching her targets unawares. She loses this special ability when fighting in medium or heavy armor. At 1st level, a peerless archer gains the ability to execute a ranged sneak attack if she catches an opponent unable to defend himself from attack. Any time the peerless archer's opponent would be denied his Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (whether he actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), the peerless archer's ranged attack deals +1d6 points of extra damage. This extra damage increases to +2d6 at 4th level, +3d6 at 7th level, and +4d6 at 10th level. Should the peerless archer score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied. It takes precision and penetration to hit a vital spot, so her ranged attacks can only count as sneak attacks if the target is no farther than 30 feet away. A peerless archer can only sneak attack living creatures with discernible anatomies—undead, constructs, oozes, plants, and incorporeal creatures lack vital areas to strike. Additionally, any creature immune to critical hits is similarly immune to sneak attacks. The peerless archer must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot. The peerless archer cannot sneak attack while striking at a creature with concealment (unless her sharp shooting ability overcomes the concealment; see below) or by striking at the limbs of a creature whose vitals are not in her line of sight. If the peerless archer gets a sneak attack bonus from another source (such as rogue levels), the bonuses to damage stack.

Sharp Shooting (Ex): A peerless archer's skill with her bow allows her to strike accurately at foes, even when they are attempting to take advantage of cover or concealment. Beginning at 2nd level, a peerless archer's targets receive cover or concealment one step worse than they should. For example, a target with three-quarters cover is treated as if he had one-half cover. At 5th level, a peerless archer ignores two steps of cover or concealment, so the same target would be treated as if he had one- quarter cover instead of three quarters cover. At 9th level, a peerless archer ignores three steps of cover or concealment. This ability has no effect against foes with total cover.

Power Shot: At 3rd level, a peerless archer learns how to make devastatingly powerful bowshots. On her action, before making any attack rolls, she may choose to subtract a number from all ranged attack rolls and add the same number to all ranged damage rolls. This number may not exceed her base attack bonus. The penalty on her attack rolls and bonus on her damage rolls apply until her next action.
Emphasis mine. In all these cases, the class features benefit all ranged attacks (or even all attacks, in case of Sharp Shooting).

You are correct in saying that Expert Bowyer, Fletching, and Threaten apply only to bows, but you wouldn't take more than 3 levels in this PrC even as an archer so it's a non-issue.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

btw, quick Crossbow questions:

Rapid Shot + TWF Crossbows

Do I get 2 extra Attacks?

If yes:
How many -2 penalties for Rapid Shot? I hope that each weapon only gives itself -2 and doesn't carry over to the other one.

No, Rapid Shot only gives you one extra attack, regardless of how many weapons you're wielding. Same goes for Haste and anything else that works the same way.

That's another reason bows are better, you can (Draconic) Polymorph into an Arrow Demon in MM3 and use Symmetrical Archery to make as many attacks with your second bow as you make with your primary bow.

[Gruftzwerg]

Ranged Sneak Attack, Sharp Shooting and Power Shot aren't restricted to bows:



Emphasis mine. In all these cases, the class features benefit all ranged attacks (or even all attacks, in case of Sharp Shooting).

You are correct in saying that Expert Bowyer, Fletching, and Threaten apply only to bows, but you wouldn't take more than 3 levels in this PrC even as an archer so it's a non-issue.

1: Ranged Sneak Attack is just a restricted version of regular sneak attack. While nice to have no reason to pick this prc. Normal sneak attack can be used in melee and up to 30ft range.

2:
Sharp Shooting (Ex): A peerless archer's skill with her bow allows her

3:
Power Shot: At 3rd level, a peerless archer learns how to make devastatingly powerful bowshots.

No reason to pick the prc. Plain rogue lvls would be more profitable.


__________________


No, Rapid Shot only gives you one extra attack, regardless of how many weapons you're wielding. Same goes for Haste and anything else that works the same way.

That's another reason bows are better, you can (Draconic) Polymorph into an Arrow Demon in MM3 and use Symmetrical Archery to make as many attacks with your second bow as you make with your primary bow.
Any rules to back that up? I would appreciate it.

And how about the double crossbows from the kobold web enhancement? Would they get 2 extra attacks when you use it with TWF?

edit: I don't see Rapid Shot and Haste as the same. Haste only talks about "one extra attack for any weapon", while "Rapid Shot gives the extra attack to a designated weapon. Further you can't have the Haste (spell)effect twice, but what would stop me to use Rapid Shot (a feat) a second time for the other weapon?
Note for Rapid Shot that you need to take a full round action (for the needed full attack), not to spend your action on it.

[liquidformat]

Any rules to back that up? I would appreciate it.

And how about the double crossbows from the kobold web enhancement? Would they get 2 extra attacks when you use it with TWF?

edit: I don't see Rapid Shot and Haste as the same. Haste only talks about "one extra attack for any weapon", while "Rapid Shot gives the extra attack to a designated weapon. Further you can't have the Haste (spell)effect twice, but what would stop me to use Rapid Shot (a feat) a second time for the other weapon?
Note for Rapid Shot that you need to take a full round action (for the needed full attack), not to spend your action on it.

I agree with you on the prcs deepwood seems the best, cavestalker while interesting is too delayed in what it gives you, and forces you to have ranged combat style from ranger levels which is lame...

Could you link the kobold web enhancement I can't currently find it. Anyways based on other crossbows, two-weapon fighting probably wouldn't work with normal crossbows at least without something like monkey grip to support it. So you are left with hand crossbows which is specified as a light weapon, though loading requires 2 hands... I would agree with you that rapid shot does by RAW let you have an extra attack with each weapon (assuming you can get around the loading issue for each hand crossbow) but you would be looking at a cumulative -2 for each hand crossbow you are getting an extra attack from. So -6 to hit for all attacks that round.

[Uncle Pine]

1: Ranged Sneak Attack is just a restricted version of regular sneak attack. While nice to have no reason to pick this prc. Normal sneak attack can be used in melee and up to 30ft range.

2:

3:

No reason to pick the prc. Plain rogue lvls would be more profitable.
You're mixing up fluff and rules description: if the abilities had read "Beginning at 2nd level, a peerless archer's targets receive cover or concealment one step worse than they should when using a bow" and "On her action, before making any attack rolls, she may choose to subtract a number from all attack rolls and add the same number to all damage rolls with any bow" respectively then yes, their usage would actually be restricted by what kind of ranged weapon the Peerless Archer is using.
As it stands, a peerless archer's skill with her bow made her sight so accurate she gains increased accuracy with any weapon and she can indeed learn how to make devastatingly powerful bowshots, because bowshots are a subcategory of all ranged attacks.

[Gruftzwerg]

I agree with you on the prcs deepwood seems the best, cavestalker while interesting is too delayed in what it gives you, and forces you to have ranged combat style from ranger levels which is lame...

Could you link the kobold web enhancement I can't currently find it. Anyways based on other crossbows, two-weapon fighting probably wouldn't work with normal crossbows at least without something like monkey grip to support it. So you are left with hand crossbows which is specified as a light weapon, though loading requires 2 hands... I would agree with you that rapid shot does by RAW let you have an extra attack with each weapon (assuming you can get around the loading issue for each hand crossbow) but you would be looking at a cumulative -2 for each hand crossbow you are getting an extra attack from. So -6 to hit for all attacks that round.

Here (https://web.archive.org/web/20190804213826/http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a)is the archive link, since the original source is down atm.

Yeah and I guess that the -2 penalty is cumulative if I use it for each weapon.
As you said -6 at the end (-2 for light TWF, and -2 twice from Rapid Shot or Double Crossbows).

[Falontani]

Master of Masks (Gladiator mask) grants proficiency with all weapons. So this is a way (if urban druid doesn't pan out) to gain proficiency with all crossbows.

Trapsmith from Dungeonscape has a trap that fires a crossbow with a bonus to hit based on your craft trap check. Since it is based off your skill, you should be able to use your other crossbow abilities, but I don't think that by RAW.

From Eberron we have the Arbalest Homunculus which is effectively a sentient crossbow that can fire itself, reload itself, etc. But you can still fire it yourself. But that's still not a prestige class...

[Thurbane]

Well, in absence of much existing material, I might look at home-brewing a PrC myself.

Thanks everyone for the replies.

[Wildstag]

I agree with you on the prcs deepwood seems the best, cavestalker while interesting is too delayed in what it gives you, and forces you to have ranged combat style from ranger levels which is lame...

"If you are not a ranger or have not already selected a ranger combat style, choose one of these two styles. You gain proficiency in that exotic weapon – either the spiked chain or the hand crossbow – if you do not already have it... If you already have selected archery as a ranger combat style, then the exotic combat style provides you with the Exotic Weapon Proficiency (hand crossbow) feat and grants you the Rapid Reload feat, even if you do not have the normal prerequisites for the feat."

Cavestalker doesn't require ranger levels at all. It just gives you an additional feat if you have the Ranger's ranged combat style.

[eversilentone]

Well, in absence of much existing material, I might look at home-brewing a PrC myself.

Thanks everyone for the replies.

I've adapted Arcane Archer to Arcane Arbalest for just this purpose. Remove the racial requirement (I guess you could put "Dwarf, Gnome or Human" instead if you wanted some thematic restrictions, or even "Drow" if restricting to hand crossbows), amend all features to work with crossbow bolts instead of arrows, and added +1 casting at each odd level just for good measure, because I can see zero reason why that shouldn't have been the case for the original.

Nothing original, but opens up some options for my NPC Drow Duskblade 3/Spellthief 9/Arcane Arbalester 2, with Hand Crossbow Focus, Versatile Combatant, Master Spellthief. Hardly overpowered even with the 1/2 casting increase imo. I'd love to see whatever you homebrew if you're willing to share :)

[ShurikVch]

Some more ideas:

Exotic Weapon Master: Close-Quarters Ranged Combat (1-level dip)

Weapon Master (Sword and Fist): +1 to attack rolls, with the crossbow of choice, +2 to your crossbow of choice threat range, maximized damage class level/day (Ki Damage), and Increased Multiplier of critical hits few times per day


From the Dragon magazines:

Master Siege Engineer (#295): Ballista is a big crossbow, right? +1d6 damage and +10% range increment (2-levels dip)

Bloodsister (#298): reload hand crossbow as a free action and without provoking AoO (1-level dip)

Gloomblade (#298): Sneak Attack up to +4d6; at 9th level, got Ranged Disarm (and, unlike a few similar abilities, your weapon would always count as one-handed Medium-sized - thus, no extra penalty for disarming)

Corsair (#321): 9th-level CF allow to add Dex bonus to damage with light weapon; if crossbow count as light weapon, then...

[TallerSpine]

I would really like to see a repeating crossbow build. I have never even seen a character try to use one. I have built a few NPCs that used them, but throwaway characters don't need to be optimized.

[Gruftzwerg]

Corsair (#321): 9th-level CF allow to add Dex bonus to damage with light weapon; if crossbow count as light weapon, then...

"Light Weapons" is a melee weapon category, while a crossbow is from the ranged weapon category. (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#tableWeapons)

Hand- & Light-crossbow only counts as light weapon for the purpose of TWF.

[jdizzlean]

there was this e6 entry (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=22810461&postcount=68) that was crossbow focused, and ludicrous. could give you a starting off point for ideas depending on what you have in mind.

[Gruftzwerg]

there was this e6 entry (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=22810461&postcount=68) that was crossbow focused, and ludicrous. could give you a starting off point for ideas depending on what you have in mind.

sadly a build that relies on DM fiat and is not legal.

"Drow ACF Hit and Run Fighter"

[jdizzlean]

sadly a build that relies on DM fiat and is not legal.

"Drow ACF Hit and Run Fighter"


i actually judged that round, and felt the same way. I've since come around to the thought that those acf's are for all and not just drow. but as w/ anything in d&d, it all comes down to dm fiat in the end anyways.

[Gruftzwerg]

i actually judged that round, and felt the same way. I've since come around to the thought that those acf's are for all and not just drow. but as w/ anything in d&d, it all comes down to dm fiat in the end anyways.

The ACF mentions it as a special Drow trait.
But I'm not a fan or racial restrictions myself. At the tables I played so far, most DM are fine with ignoring them. But still something what should be mentioned when showcasing builds. You can't expect that all DM will agree to this.

[AvatarVecna]

The ACF mentions it as a special Drow trait.
But I'm not a fan or racial restrictions myself. At the tables I played so far, most DM are fine with ignoring them. But still something what should be mentioned when showcasing builds. You can't expect that all DM will agree to this.

I can't seem to find a note in that chapter indicating the ACF options are restricted to drow characters as much as primarily taken by drow characters. Is "limited to drow" just an assumption based on all the non-mechanical fluff text, or am I missing something? If so, I'd appreciate a quotation/page number/etc.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

The ACF mentions it as a special Drow trait.
But I'm not a fan or racial restrictions myself. At the tables I played so far, most DM are fine with ignoring them. But still something what should be mentioned when showcasing builds. You can't expect that all DM will agree to this.

It doesn't list any prerequisites apart from Fighter level, so as long as you have something in your background about having learned it from a Drow (or even having learned it from someone else who learned it from a Drow), you should be in the clear.

[jdizzlean]

it comes down to how you read the text before all the acf's. none of the acf's themselves require you to be drow, but all the text prior to them basically says 'you have these options as a drow'. it's one of those super clear rules as written arguments, because it really can go either way depending on how hardcore you are about it.

[Psyren]

Even if your GM is a stickler that Drow options are only for Drow, consider seeing if they'll allow the Racial Heritage feat since PF is on the table, which will open up any (human) subtype race taking drow racial options - in addition to humans themselves, this includes half-elves, half-orcs, illumians, azurins, silverbrow humans etc.