For Druids, Nature or Survival?

[xroads]

I am playing a druid and I was wondering...


What is the most druid like skill, nature or survival? By this, I mean if we're only concerned about fluff, what seems like the skill druids would pick up?


What is the most op skill and why? I'm leaning to survival as being the most op. But I seem to recall hearing arguments that nature can be op too.

Thanks in advance!

[Luccan]

1. Nature. Druids have spells that can replace survival, but it's hard to imagine a druid that doesn't actually know much about the natural world beyond hunting and gathering berries.

2. Of the two? Probably Survival, but I wouldn't argue it's actually OP.

[clash]

I would say survival. Survival is based around knowing nature and immersing in it. It's based on wisdom or survival instincts. Nature is int based. It's more of an academic study of nature like biology.

[Man_Over_Game]

One thing that bugs me is that Nature is basically Survival 2.0.

The basics are more common than the advanced stuff, but the advanced stuff should matter more. It doesn't. It doesn't matter that you know which plants are poisonous or what kind of monsters hunt humans this time of year. Not when you can't find those plants or track for those monsters.

[Greywander]

Typically, INT skills are academic, i.e. "booksmarts", while WIS skills are practical, i.e. "streetsmarts". Survival seems to better fit the druid archetype, though ideally you'd get both (and represent Nature as less academic and more spiritual/practical).

Do note that both skills can be rather broadly applied. Nature can be geology, zoology, meteorology, ecology, etc. Survival can be hunting, tracking, building basic shelters and tools, treating food and water to make it safe for consumption, etc. Survival is essentially a catch-all skill for outdoorsmen, pioneers, etc., encompassing all the basic practical skills you'd need to live in the middle of no where.

[pragma]

I house rule nature out of existence because it shares so much conceptual space with survival. I don't think you need more than one skill that reads "good at outside."

[Greywander]

I house rule nature out of existence because it shares so much conceptual space with survival. I don't think you need more than one skill that reads "good at outside."
Not really.

Nature is professor gushing about rock formations or animal mating habits.

Survival is the prepper who knows 7 different ways to turn dirty water into drinkable water.

Their only similarities are both being "outside" skills. You could just as easily say that Stealth and Sleight of Hand are both "sneaky" skills, or that Perception and Insight are both "awareness" skills, or that Persuasion, Deception, and Intimidation are both "talky" skills, or that Religion and Arcana are both "supernatural" skills. It goes on and on. If you divide them into an academic skill (Nature) and a practical skill (Survival), the delineation becomes a lot clearer.

[HappyDaze]

I'll be the odd one here and say that, for many druids, Nature would be a better fit than Survival. This is because druids in several settings are members of learned societies that don't necessarily live as hermits in the wild. They are essentially a variant of the (nature) cleric with a different source of magic. This will often be reflected in the background selected: druid sages might be just as common as druid outlanders.

[Edenbeast]

Do note that both skills can be rather broadly applied. Nature can be geology, zoology, meteorology, ecology, etc. Survival can be hunting, tracking, building basic shelters and tools, treating food and water to make it safe for consumption, etc. Survival is essentially a catch-all skill for outdoorsmen, pioneers, etc., encompassing all the basic practical skills you'd need to live in the middle of no where.

I think this kind of holds the answer to the question asked. I disagree with the first statement (not quoted) that INT skills are academic, they are not, not necessarily at least. INT skills represent knowledge you've gather on certain fields over your lifetime. Be it through books or practictical experience/experiment/study, or just by age.

If we look at what the druid was and represented historically in ancient societies such as the Celts, then Nature is thematically the best fit. You go to the village druid with questions about the weather, animals and the trees. For tracking, shelter and tools, I'd go to the village hunter or ranger. Then again, the druid, usually a village elder, may have been a hunter in the younger years, and that's how they've gained their knowledge in the first place. It's not so clear cut, and maybe badly represented in fantasy roleplaying. But as said, you have the knowledge about the natural world (Nature), and the practical skills for when you're on your own in the wilds and just basically trying to survive by hunting etc. (Survival). The druid fits much better the Nature skill. I think the key-word here is proficiency, not being proficient does not mean you're excluded from using a skill. A druid has a high WIS and a druid's Survival skill can just ride on that, it represents your innate survival wisdom so to speak. I mean, hypothetically, imagine a ranger/hunter and a druid, each on their own in the forest, both level 1. The ranger with WIS 12 and proficiency in Survival, and the druid with WIS 16 and no proficiency in Survival. Who has the better chances?

Obviously, in the end it's your character concept and background that determine which of the two skills (or both) you'll get. There's nothing wrong to get both, or only survival, or only nature. Just that, thematically, and in my opinion, Nature would be my first pick.

[xroads]

Thanks everyone.

Right now I'm leaning toward Nature as it fits my character's concept (he's a guild artisan who has learned about nature mostly through books and second hand accounts).

But there is one mental obstacle I can't wrap my brain around. If my druid relies mostly on Nature as a skill, how does he "survive" in the woods? Most depictions of fantasy druids have them as loners living in the woods.

Create Water and Goodberry can help with water and food respectively. They have Lesser Restoration and Cure Wounds for injury (also Goodberry... really useful spell).

But what about shelter? I can't find any druid spell that can provide or find shelter.

[KorvinStarmast]

I am playing a druid and I was wondering...


What is the most druid like skill, nature or survival? By this, I mean if we're only concerned about fluff, what seems like the skill druids would pick up?


What is the most op skill and why? I'm leaning to survival as being the most op. But I seem to recall hearing arguments that nature can be op too.

Thanks in advance!
1. Both. One means you know a lot about Nature, two means that you can live off the land and track animals. By the way, you get more than one skill as a druid. (Consider taking outlander as a background and then pick Nature as Druid ...)

2. Neither is OP. Both are/can be useful. (IIRC, it takes a successful nature check, DC 20, to harvest poison from various poisonous monsters). See the DMG.

One of the nice things about survival is that in some adventures, you need to live off the land.

[Addaran]

I'd pick nature. On a mechanical point of view, you'll have decent survival thanks to wisdom and decent nature thanks to proficiency (but low int probably). The other way around would leave you with very good survival and crap nature.


Thanks everyone.

Right now I'm leaning toward Nature as it fits my character's concept (he's a guild artisan who has learned about nature mostly through books and second hand accounts).

But there is one mental obstacle I can't wrap my brain around. If my druid relies mostly on Nature as a skill, how does he "survive" in the woods? Most depictions of fantasy druids have them as loners living in the woods.

Create Water and Goodberry can help with water and food respectively. They have Lesser Restoration and Cure Wounds for injury (also Goodberry... really useful spell).

But what about shelter? I can't find any druid spell that can provide or find shelter.

You can be a loner in the woods without being a crazy Bear Grylls. Since you're a guild artisan, you could have had a little cabin build a few hours away from a town/city, in a forest.

Your druid can also just bring a tent and equipment, since he's not thrown away into the wilds without preparation.

Or, if he's not nomadic, even without survival, he could make a shelter over some days. Survival is really useful if you are always on the move and need to make a new shelter quickly everyday.

For spells, Mold Earth can help easily dig so part of your shelter is protected from the wind/ you need to build less high. Could even do a little hobbit house with some materials. Create bonfire or produce flame if you need heat and don't have wood to burn. Not much other low level spells i can think of. edit: Don't forget Guidance for all check. Really amazing spell.

Since you have food taken care of and only need shelter, you could have a related tool proficiency for that.

[elyktsorb]

Survival.

9 times out of 10, most people who are running the game are going to be asking for survival checks in regards to having anything to do with the outside world. I know there are differences between them, and I've justified Nature, but as far as Druid goes, Survival will almost always get you where you need to go and int is such a dump stat for the class nature isn't worth picking up.

[Luccan]

My problem with picking just Survival (a classic D&D druid should ,IMO, have both, but I'd pick Nature first) is that the druid has spells for most of what a druid would be doing with it: gathering food and water and not eating anything poisonous. While a druid might hunt for food, they have the capacity to call on the wild to assist them. Plus, I don't think 'tracker' when I think Druid. As has been pointed out, you don't really need Survival for shelter unless you're moving around all the time and, arguing again from that classic druid standpoint, you probably spent a lot of your pre-adventure days in a single grove.

[MaxWilson]

Typically, INT skills are academic, i.e. "booksmarts", while WIS skills are practical, i.e. "streetsmarts". Survival seems to better fit the druid archetype, though ideally you'd get both (and represent Nature as less academic and more spiritual/practical).

Do note that both skills can be rather broadly applied. Nature can be geology, zoology, meteorology, ecology, etc. Survival can be hunting, tracking, building basic shelters and tools, treating food and water to make it safe for consumption, etc. Survival is essentially a catch-all skill for outdoorsmen, pioneers, etc., encompassing all the basic practical skills you'd need to live in the middle of no where.

Note that this characterization of Nature seems to conflict with the DMG's rules on extracting poison from poisonous animals: it's very hands-on, and yet it's a Nature check (or Poisoner's Tools check), not a Survival check.

[HappyDaze]

As has been pointed out, you don't really need Survival for shelter unless you're moving around all the time and, arguing again from that classic druid standpoint, you probably spent a lot of your pre-adventure days in a single grove.

Or traveling from rural community to rural community and gaining shelter from the inhabitants. Acolyte certainly isn't an inappropriate background for druids, nor is Folk Hero (which does grant Survival).

[xroads]

For spells, Mold Earth can help easily dig so part of your shelter is protected from the wind/ you need to build less high. Could even do a little hobbit house with some materials. Create bonfire or produce flame if you need heat and don't have wood to burn. Not much other low level spells i can think of. edit: Don't forget Guidance for all check. Really amazing spell.

Since you have food taken care of and only need shelter, you could have a related tool proficiency for that.

I've considered using Mold Earth to build a shelter in a pinch. But I wonder if my DM will require me to use some sort of skill to actually build something.

Guidance is a great spell, but isn't that only really useful for my allies? Or at least we've always interpreted it as the divine caster just following along concentrating on praying.

Unfortunately my tool proficiency from Guild Artisan is Apothecary Kit.

[Christew]

Sheltering options:
Novice -- dig a hole with a windbreak made from displaced earth (Mold Earth)
Druid -- become one with the stone (Meld into Stone)
Archdruid -- build an elaborate castle made of shaped stone (Wall of Stone)

[Luccan]

I've considered using Mold Earth to build a shelter in a pinch. But I wonder if my DM will require me to use some sort of skill to actually build something.

Guidance is a great spell, but isn't that only really useful for my allies? Or at least we've always interpreted it as the divine caster just following along concentrating on praying.

Unfortunately my tool proficiency from Guild Artisan is Apothecary Kit.

Guidance only takes an action to cast. It has Concentration, but concentration spells don't require an action to maintain. So, RAW, you don't have to pray along with your ally's action

[Addaran]

I've considered using Mold Earth to build a shelter in a pinch. But I wonder if my DM will require me to use some sort of skill to actually build something.

Guidance is a great spell, but isn't that only really useful for my allies? Or at least we've always interpreted it as the divine caster just following along concentrating on praying.

Unfortunately my tool proficiency from Guild Artisan is Apothecary Kit.

Is it an AL-character that you don't know who might DM or you know the DM. Asking them directly would solve that question. I wouldn't ask a skill check to build something really rudimentary. Just a hole with a tarp on it. Or a small hole with basic supports then covered with more earth. And if there's a check, it should be pretty low, with your wisdom and guidance, should at least have 50% of succeeding. If you want a full hobbit house like Bilbo though, with rooms, fireplace, etc that would be a check for sure.

Guidance work on yourself. Just concentrating doesn't prevent you from doing action. It could be that you say a little prayer: "Mieliki guides you" and the next action that person tries, there's a little voice that will help "more to the left"/"wrong kind of wood" or a little flash vision of what to do.

Depending on your character, you could trade the language from the background for another tool proficiency. Depends how much you value the language.

[xroads]

Sheltering options:
[...]
Druid -- become one with the stone (Meld into Stone)


Lasts 8 hours, no concentration, and it's even a ritual. Genius!


Is it an AL-character that you don't know who might DM or you know the DM. Asking them directly would solve that question. I wouldn't ask a skill check to build something really rudimentary. Just a hole with a tarp on it. Or a small hole with basic supports then covered with more earth. And if there's a check, it should be pretty low, with your wisdom and guidance, should at least have 50% of succeeding. If you want a full hobbit house like Bilbo though, with rooms, fireplace, etc that would be a check for sure.

Good point. I was thinking of a hobbit home at the time (in part because my character is a halfling). But you're right, if I just want to make a quick burrow like a small animal, then I shouldn't need a skill check.